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View Full Version : Sorry if this is old hat, but what the hell were apple thinking??




fluidedge
Apr 22, 2009, 05:04 AM
A proprietary (in all but name) Mini Display Port welded onto a graphics card that requires either the purchase of an apple display or an expensive adaptor to work!

I'd love to have heard the nVidia and ATi response to that. They must be loving it. Selling useless cards to apple that people will throw away and buy another card from them at full price. Nice!

seriously - ROTFLMFAO!



barkmonster
Apr 22, 2009, 05:11 AM
A proprietary (in all but name) Mini Display Port welded onto a graphics card that requires either the purchase of an apple display or an expensive adaptor to work!

I'd love to have heard the nVidia and ATi response to that. They must be loving it. Selling useless cards to apple that people will throw away and buy another card from them at full price. Nice!

seriously - ROTFLMFAO!

It's already being adopted as a new display connection standard.

Adapters will only be necessary for a finite amount of time till monitors come with it as standard.

It's the same as removing SCSI and ADB ports in favour of firewire and USB. People complained about that at the time but look at it now.

asnozz
Apr 22, 2009, 05:28 AM
It's already being adopted as a new display connection standard.

Adapters will only be necessary for a finite amount of time till monitors come with it as standard.

It's the same as removing SCSI and ADB ports in favour of firewire and USB. People complained about that at the time but look at it now.

I think that is a very optimistic view

fluidedge
Apr 22, 2009, 05:30 AM
But isn't it putting the cart before the horse?

Shouldn't Apple wait until monitors come with the port (as well as DVI) then provide for them?

This still isn't a well recognised standard by any means.

Wouldn't apple have been better including a HDMI port instead?

Eyedn
Apr 22, 2009, 05:36 AM
Oh god. Not HDMI, are you trying to start a flame war?

MacVidCards
Apr 22, 2009, 05:42 AM
Display Port is new "standard"

MDP is Apple's bastardization of it.

DVI was fine...we are just being "force upgraded"...AGAIN.

Worked GREAT with ADC !!!! (Hey, Apple is still creating demand for $100 adapters to make their 5 year old displays work with their new machines...brilliant !!!)

OllyW
Apr 22, 2009, 05:50 AM
It's already being adopted as a new display connection standard.

After 6 months you still only have the option of one monitor. It can hardly be called a new display connection standard until there is a wider choice.

Bye Bye Baby
Apr 22, 2009, 06:00 AM
I must agree. What is the advantage asides from making us spend more money?

J&JPolangin
Apr 22, 2009, 06:11 AM
...What is the advantage asides from making us spend more money?

...:apple: remains a healthy company for its shareholders...

MacVidCards
Apr 22, 2009, 06:34 AM
As we have MDP FORCED down our throats, Apple pretends FW400 never existed...one of their few innovations that they should REALLY be proud of yet treated like a Pedophile Uncle.

MacAndy74
Apr 22, 2009, 06:38 AM
Uhh :confused:
I don't understand the big deal, just get the adapter - what's wrong with that?! I must be confused.

edesignuk
Apr 22, 2009, 06:41 AM
I think they've just approached it all wrong.

DisplayPort and possibly Mini DisplayPort will become the standard just as DVI took over.

Shipping computers with ONLY DisplayPort (and Mini) and no adapters(!) when there's hardly anything out there to connect them too is just stupidity, and more importantly Apple's continued arrogance.

fluidedge
Apr 22, 2009, 06:50 AM
Uhh :confused:
I don't understand the big deal, just get the adapter - what's wrong with that?! I must be confused.

Yes i'm afraid you are. Apple in pushing a new port should properly support it by providing the adaptor gratis with a new mac pro.

Users shouldn't have to purchace anything extra to make something forced upon them work.

"but it's only $100" you say? - There's a recession on you know! :p

grue
Apr 22, 2009, 06:54 AM
DisplayPort is understandable. Mini DisplayPort is useless crap.

DisplayPort is already a rather diminutive connector, there was no reason to do a smaller version on any machine except the MacBook Air, and anyone buying the Air knows they're buying a compromised machine and should be ready to accept using an adapter anyway.

Furthermore, in typical Apple fashion, they didn't even enable the audio in the port.

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 07:07 AM
After 6 months you still only have the option of one monitor. It can hardly be called a new display connection standard until there is a wider choice.

Two lines of monitors actually.

And its part of the standard, that doesn't mean it has flooded the market yet, but its still part of the standard.

Tallest Skil
Apr 22, 2009, 07:10 AM
But isn't it putting the cart before the horse?

Shouldn't Apple wait until monitors come with the port (as well as DVI) then provide for them?

If they had done this, we'd still be using ADB instead of USB; no one would have ever supported USB.

skottichan
Apr 22, 2009, 07:18 AM
After 6 months you still only have the option of one monitor. It can hardly be called a new display connection standard until there is a wider choice.

The Dell 3008WFP 30-inch (76 cm), released in January 2008 was the first monitor to support DisplayPort.

The Dell 2408WFP 24-inch (61 cm), which followed in April 2008

Apple's LED Cinema Display

HP's LP2275w, LP2475w, and LP2480zx monitors also support DisplayPort.

Pressure
Apr 22, 2009, 07:18 AM
Well, it is ratified in the DisplayPort 1.2 specifications by VESA.

Apple have always been forward thinking when it comes replacing old connectors and hardware.

Just look at the floppy etc. This is the way of technology.

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 07:20 AM
Well, it is ratified in the DisplayPort 1.2 specifications by VESA.

Apple have always been forward thinking when it comes replacing old connectors and hardware.

Just look at the floppy etc. This is the way of technology.

Not to mention that someones gotta take the first leap or else everyone stagnates. Thats one thing I really love about apple, they aren't afraid to forge ahead rather than just get comfortable with the status quo.

OllyW
Apr 22, 2009, 07:31 AM
The Dell 3008WFP 30-inch (76 cm), released in January 2008 was the first monitor to support DisplayPort.

The Dell 2408WFP 24-inch (61 cm), which followed in April 2008

Apple's LED Cinema Display

HP's LP2275w, LP2475w, and LP2480zx monitors also support DisplayPort.

The Display Port on the Dell and HP monitors is not the same as Apple's Mini Display Port on the 24" LCD ACD.

skottichan
Apr 22, 2009, 07:44 AM
The Display Port on the Dell and HP monitors is not the same as Apple's Mini Display Port on the 24" LCD ACD.

Oh forgive me that the MDP/DP cables have been delayed until June.


http://estore.circuitassembly.com/catalog/mini-displayport-to-displayport-adapter-cable-2-meter-p-287.html


MDP plugs into your mac, the DP end plugs into the display.... end of problem.

grue
Apr 22, 2009, 08:45 AM
Well, it is ratified in the DisplayPort 1.2 specifications by VESA.

Apple have always been forward thinking when it comes replacing old connectors and hardware.

Just look at the floppy etc. This is the way of technology.


Not to mention that someones gotta take the first leap or else everyone stagnates. Thats one thing I really love about apple, they aren't afraid to forge ahead rather than just get comfortable with the status quo.



Apple was ahead of the curve with USB and 802.11.

Apple was WAY behind the curve with:

USB 2.0
SATA
CD-R and CD-RW
DVD
DVD±R and DVD±RW

Still waiting on Blu-Ray, too.

Apple pushes ahead some technologies when it suits them. To say they're always forward thinking or forging ahead is not something I'd agree with.

Outsider
Apr 22, 2009, 09:40 AM
I predict Apple will dump MDP for full blown DP. I only have to look at what happened with ADC. ADC was a DVI derivative that piggybacked a bunch of other signals like USB and power. It was nice and handy. Buy it was Apple specific. No other monitors supported it and Apple eventually adopted DVI on all their desktops and many laptops.

I think by the end of the year MDP will be supplanted with DP, and I already think that is in the process. MDP will be a laptop only connector. I don't even think that that is necessary, DP is a small port, much smaller than DVI and only a little bigger than a USB port.

yellow
Apr 22, 2009, 09:43 AM
3 letters...


A D C

This is very old hat.
:D

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 09:44 AM
3 letters...


A D C

This is very old hat.
:D

Did apple allow people to use it for free as well?

yellow
Apr 22, 2009, 09:47 AM
Depends on your definition of free.

If you purchased an apple monitor with your Mac, yes it was "free". But if you wanted to use that monitor on another computer with say.. DVI, then you're buying an expensive little dongled heat brick.

Tesselator
Apr 22, 2009, 10:31 AM
I think DVI variants are here to stay for a long time yet. DisplayPort
is three years old already and it's not catching on yet still. It was put
forth by VESA a "standards association" (!!!) The video signal is not
compatible with DVI or HDMI so it's going to be a very hard sell even
though it can pass through.

MiniDisplayPort is Apple ONLY and will probably always be Apple ONLY
just like Apple-Talk and their first attempts at an ethernet connection:

http://lowendmac.com/tech/aaui/aaui.jpg
______AAUI == Joke

Apple's MDP was announced only 6 months ago. I doubt seriously any
other manufacturer will adopt MDP (ever!) and I believe it will always
be supported at the adaptor level. It's too limited in it's abilities compared
to DP or DVI, etc.

Fo the talking points and discussion see the wiki talk page here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mini_DisplayPort

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 10:33 AM
Depends on your definition of free.

If you purchased an apple monitor with your Mac, yes it was "free". But if you wanted to use that monitor on another computer with say.. DVI, then you're buying an expensive little dongled heat brick.

I meant licensing to other manufactures so they can incorporate it into their own devices? They are doing that this go around with mDP

Wild-Bill
Apr 22, 2009, 10:35 AM
I think they've just approached it all wrong.
Shipping computers with ONLY DisplayPort (and Mini) and no adapters(!) when there's hardly anything out there to connect them too is just stupidity, and more importantly Apple's continued arrogance.

There it is.

Oh yeah, and how many video cards out there come with DP or MDP??

.......thought so.

yellow
Apr 22, 2009, 10:36 AM
I meant licensing to other manufactures so they can incorporate it into their own devices? They are doing that this go around with mDP

Other than video card manufacturers and 3rd party adapter manufacturers..
I don't think so.

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 10:37 AM
There it is.

Oh yeah, and how many video cards out there come with DP or MDP??

.......thought so.

Did u even research? I get hits in google.

nick9191
Apr 22, 2009, 10:41 AM
Mini DisplayPort allows Apple to use the same connector across all of their products. Regular DisplayPort is too big for the Macbook Air.

Mini DisplayPort is a standard, included within the new DisplayPort spec set forth by Vesa, meaning it is royalty free and anybody can use it. It is not proprietary. Just be glad that MDP is a standard unlike ADC.

Apple has always been absolutely merciless in dropping old ports. In 1998 they dropped every single port on their consumer machine that had been standard on all Macs for a decade, and replaced them with 2 USB ports. If you don't like the way Apple do this, then don't buy Apple gear.

Firewire 400 has been replaced by Firewire 800 and shortly, Firewire 3200. Firewire was dropped completely off the Unibody Macbook and Macbook Air, because the user base of those two products are the userbase least likely to care.

Tesselator
Apr 22, 2009, 11:00 AM
Mini DisplayPort is a standard, included within the new DisplayPort spec set forth by Vesa, ...

While today this is technically true it's a bit misleading phrased like that. It's Apple proprietary that just very recently has been included into the VESA standard. It will be part of the DisplayPort 1.2 spec which I'm not even sure has been published yet. I compared it to AAUI for a good reason. It's a derivative of AUI like MDP is of DP and it was accepted back into the IEEE 802.3-1990 CSMA/CD Standard just like MDP was accepted back into the VESA standard. Doesn't really matter though; Probably no one but Apple-centric vendors are going to use it or support it - just like AAUI.

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 11:02 AM
While today this is technically true it's a bit misleading phrased like that. It's Apple proprietary that just very recently has been included into the VESA standard. It will be part of the DisplayPort 1.2 spec which I'm not even sure has been published yet. I compared it to AAUI for a good reason. It's a derivative of AUI like MDP is of DP and it was accepted back into the IEEE 802.3-1990 CSMA/CD Standard just like MDP was accepted back into the VESA standard. Doesn't really matter though; Probably no one but Apple-centric vendors are going to use it or support it - just like AAUI.

Which is why its already starting to be used right? And yes, the standard was accepted, I beleive, a few months back.

Edit: It appears I was wrong with the ratification of the standard, its on schedule for mid year.

Demosthenes X
Apr 22, 2009, 11:17 AM
But isn't it putting the cart before the horse?

Shouldn't Apple wait until monitors come with the port (as well as DVI) then provide for them?

Circle logic. Apple should wait until monitors come to market before changing standards. But nobody is going to bring a monitor to market if no computer supports that connection. Someone has to make the first move.

Tesselator
Apr 22, 2009, 11:18 AM
Which is why its already starting to be used right? And yes, the standard was accepted, I beleive, a few months back.

Edit: It appears I was wrong with the ratification of the standard, its on schedule for mid year.


That sounds right.

But also don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this is a good thing nor am I saying it's a bad thing. It just is what it is. It's going to cost users an extra $25 ~ $100 bucks tho and vendors who adopt both will have an added cost as well. But there's no emotional content or yearning in my drivel. :)

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 11:27 AM
That sounds right.

But also don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this is a good thing nor am I saying it's a bad thing. It just is what it is. It's going to cost users an extra $25 ~ $100 bucks tho and vendors who adopt both will have an added cost as well. But there's no emotional content or yearning in my drivel. :)

Good thing for those who dont want to use mDP adaptors such as mDP-> HDMI are on the way for as little as $14.

Also:

http://i.gizmodo.com/5211589/cinemaview-promises-to-be-tempting-apple-cinema-display-alternative
http://i.gizmodo.com/5211589/cinemaview-promises-to-be-tempting-apple-cinema-display-alternative

I expect this is only the beginning. Once the DP 1.2 standard is ratified I fully expect 3rd parties to start using mDP more.

dagomike
Apr 22, 2009, 11:47 AM
Mini DisplayPort allows Apple to use the same connector across all of their products. Regular DisplayPort is too big for the Macbook Air.

I assume this is it. Apple wants to unify its display ports across all lines. I think that makes sense. Plus, the Mac Pro comes with 1 DVI anyway. I mean if you own two displays, and if you're going to spend like $6000 on a desktop, are you really going to freak out about a $19 adapter? Monoprice will probably have one for $9 or something anyway.

Consultant
Apr 22, 2009, 11:48 AM
Monoprice has cheaper adapters.

VirtualRain
Apr 22, 2009, 12:02 PM
MDP is better than some of the other ports they offered on laptops recently... My MacBook Air has a bizarre micro-DVI or something?! WTF?

Given that I absolutely love the 24" LED Cinema display, the key problem for me is that the 4870 only comes with 1 MDP port. I would really like to have two 24" LED ACD's and it seems rediculous that I need to buy another card to support that.

The 4870 option and other Apple graphics cards should have come in two flavors... one with dual MDP ports, and another with dual DVI ports. Then I think most people would be happy.

cmaier
Apr 22, 2009, 12:10 PM
This is the natural result of Apple not licensing clones. There will always be fewer choices (because Apple can't enable every variation that everyone wants), and a vocal minority will always insist their particular feature is vital and Apple is being "arrogant" (I'm not sure the people who use this term actually understand what "arrogant" means).

Whatever. I, for one, welcome my new Cupertino overlords.

Apple's not always ahead of the technology curve, but there are many many examples in the past of them eliminating a feature or technology and replacing it with something else to massive protests and howls, but where this form of bootstrapping resulted in the new technology taking off and becoming "the standard." Sometimes they blow it, sometimes they are, in hindsight, geniuses. The price, and the benefit, of buying into the Apple ecosystem.

CaptainJeff
Apr 22, 2009, 12:15 PM
Monoprice has the converters nice and cheap.

MDP->DVI for $15.20
MDP->VGA for $18.85
MDP->HDMI for $14.25

It is an inconvenience at worst.

MacVidCards
Apr 22, 2009, 12:42 PM
I don't mind too much that Apple keeps changing flavors on their official Kool-Aid.

I just don't understand why I always need to buy a new pitcher to drink it from.

Tesselator
Apr 22, 2009, 01:04 PM
MDP is better than some of the other ports they offered on laptops recently... My MacBook Air has a bizarre micro-DVI or something?! WTF?


According to this: http://support.apple.com/kb/SP501 That's a Mini DisplayPort I guess just like we're talking about here.

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 01:07 PM
According to this: http://support.apple.com/kb/SP501 That's a Mini DisplayPort I guess just like we're talking about here.

I think hes talking about Rev A, which had a different connection.

MacVidCards
Apr 22, 2009, 01:26 PM
Yes, it was either Mini DVI or Micro DVI.

It's on my Macbook 2.1 C2D and I know it was used on Intel iMacs for awhile.

It was easily adapted to regular DVI, and Apple included the adapter with iMacs, not sure about Macbooks.

grue
Apr 22, 2009, 04:38 PM
Mini DisplayPort allows Apple to use the same connector across all of their products. Regular DisplayPort is too big for the Macbook Air.




So put it on the MacBook Air and use Not-Retarded DisplayPort on everything else. People know they're buying a compromised joke of a laptop when they buy the Air, so let them use an adapter. Don't punish everyone else with a stupid connector when they want to buy a reasonable computer.

Macpropro80
Apr 22, 2009, 04:41 PM
It's already being adopted as a new display connection standard.

Adapters will only be necessary for a finite amount of time till monitors come with it as standard.

It's the same as removing SCSI and ADB ports in favour of firewire and USB. People complained about that at the time but look at it now.

Hey hey hey, I like my usb and firewire as much as the next guy, but what they hell were they thinking? No SCSI? OMG! Now how am i suppose to use this 25 year old printer and 24mb hard drive without a scsi port!!!!

NT1440
Apr 22, 2009, 04:42 PM
So put it on the MacBook Air and use Not-Retarded DisplayPort on everything else. People know they're buying a compromised joke of a laptop when they buy the Air, so let them use an adapter. Don't punish everyone else with a stupid connector when they want to buy a reasonable computer.

Yes its such a punishment to choose to buy a computer knowing what it has :rolleyes:

What is it about streamlining and unifying product lines that is hard to grasp?:confused:

grue
Apr 22, 2009, 05:49 PM
Yes its such a punishment to choose to buy a computer knowing what it has :rolleyes:

What is it about streamlining and unifying product lines that is hard to grasp?:confused:

When you can't reliably use a professional display with a professional computer? Yeah, that's punishment.

Streamlining is one thing. Making everything else suck as hard as a crap product is another thing entirely.

VirtualRain
Apr 23, 2009, 02:26 AM
Brace yourselves for DiiVA... How long do you think before Apple jumps on this band-wagon? I'm surprised they're not one of the initial backers! :rolleyes:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/data/2009_4_22/Ethernet-Cable-to-kill-HDMI2c-DisplayPort2c-DVI2c-USB/Diiva_675.jpg

DiiVA v1.0 [Digital Interactive Interface for Video & Audio] is a new connecting interface intended to replace not just HDMI, but Ethernet, USB, DVI, DisplayPort and reduce the number of communication cables to only two: power and DiiVA.

This standard is backed by LG, Panasonic, Samsung and the Chinese government. In short, CE companies are increasingly growing tired of HDMI and all the limitations of the standard [not to mention royalties], and with the upcoming "beyond HD" 4K resolution TVs [3840x2160 or 4096x2160 e.g. 2160p], large players in the industry feel the time has come to wave good bye to Silicon Image royalties and throw out HDMI altogether. Replacing a standard is nothing short of impressive and it is hard to believe that an industry known for its incompatibilities [remember connecting Sony VCR to Pioneer CRT TV? Those were the days of "fun"] managed to sit behind one table and negotiate a single, royalty-free standard that could end up in unifying computing and consumer electronic industry in a single sweep.

According to the official FAQ, DiiVA enables transport of uncompressed video, multi-channel audio, USB, Ethernet, commands [TV control other devices on DiiVA network], power [just like Power over Ethernet, 5W total] and unfortunately broken-for-good content protection. The maximum cable length is currently set at 25 meters between two points. By using a planned repeater device [powered by the DiiVA cable itself], you can increase this to 50 meters. You can download the DiiVA FAQ on this page.

Link: http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/4/22/ethernet-cable-to-kill-hdmi2c-displayport2c-dvi2c-and-usb.aspx

Wild-Bill
Apr 23, 2009, 06:23 AM
Did u even research? I get hits in google.

Wow. Yeah, that's quality research. :rolleyes:

Stop arguing with people for the sake of arguing. And you wonder why no one here likes you. :rolleyes:

Tesselator
Apr 23, 2009, 06:30 AM
"...and the Chinese government."

Oh great, the one-child policy, and dissident forced organ donation via a cable connection. :rolleyes:

:D

dnadrifter
Apr 26, 2009, 12:30 AM
I apologize for the newbie question but I assume if I am using a 1200x1600 dpi monitor I could use the cheap $30 one from Apple (see below) or the cheap monoprice one.

This would leave the dual dvi for a larger monitor as well. Thus the existing graphics card on the new mac pros, in addition to a $15-30 adapter, could run one small and one large monitor at the same time.....is this correct?


http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB572Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA3Ng&mco=MzE3ODcyMA#overview

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042802&p_id=5106&seq=1&format=2