Mac OS X Security Update 2004-05-03

[MacRumors]

Apple released a new security update for Mac OS X:

Security Update 2004-05-03 delivers a number of security enhancements and is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the following components: AFP Server, CoreFoundation, IPSec


It can be found in your Mac OS X Software Update

[funkywhat2]

what prompted this? another fake worm?

[IrishGold]

what prompted this? another fake worm?

There was a fake worm?

[encro]

don't complain, either way its a good thing :)

[realityisterror]

don't complain, either way its a good thing :)

except, of course, that it requires a restart... :(

reality

[jemeinc]

except, of course, that it requires a restart... :(

reality


Man, we are spoiled aren't we ... lol... I love it... That statement just brought back all of those distant, yet painful memories of 2 & 3 reboots a day... I can't believe I managed to get any work done at all...

[wrldwzrd89]

Downloading and installing as I post this...let's hope for the best!

[crees!]

Better safe than sorry. BTW, I just love hearing people post things like "Updating now... hope things will be fine." What do you expect? Your computer to turn into a fireball upon restart? :eek: Get real :D

[Earendil]

Man, we are spoiled aren't we ... lol... I love it... That statement just brought back all of those distant, yet painful memories of 2 & 3 reboots a day... I can't believe I managed to get any work done at all...

I never had to deal with a windows machine in any sort of general every day use. But I am quite spoiled by Panther. The only time I restart is for updates from Apple, and it's always a pain in the neck, because I then ACTUALLY have to bookmark websites, instead of just keeping 10-15 of them tabbed like I normally do :D

Tyler
Earendil

[insidedanshead]

Man, we are spoiled aren't we ... lol... I love it... That statement just brought back all of those distant, yet painful memories of 2 & 3 reboots a day... I can't believe I managed to get any work done at all...

2 - 3 ? MAN YOU WERE LUCKY! I dreaded everytime I moved my mouse under os 9 fearing that upon movement of my hand the cursor would be frozen on the screen and the computer locked up, rending all unsaved work, gone forever. man i love x.

[MacRETARD]

These are becoming as frequent as M$ patches!

[IrishGold]

There was a fake worm?



!!!! :mad: !!!!

[jaronimo]

2 - 3 ? MAN YOU WERE LUCKY! I dreaded everytime I moved my mouse under os 9 fearing that upon movement of my hand the cursor would be frozen on the screen and the computer locked up, rending all unsaved work, gone forever. man i love x.

You did? Than I'm sorry to say, that you didn't setup your system well. OS 9 indeed was a very stable system for working, at least for my studio it worked and still does very well. It's not that eye-catchy and loaded with abilitys to do everything you maybe want to, but still is a work-horse 24 hours a day for me.

[MacFan25]

Better safe than sorry. BTW, I just love hearing people post things like "Updating now... hope things will be fine." What do you expect? Your computer to turn into a fireball upon restart? :eek: Get real :D
Heh...well just to let you know, I downloaded and installed it and everything thing seems to be working fine. ;) :D

Speaking of security, I'm once again glad I don't own a Windows computer, after hearing about that new virus that is going around. :rolleyes:

[wrldwzrd89]

Heh...well just to let you know, I downloaded and installed it and everything thing seems to be working fine. ;) :D

Speaking of security, I'm once again glad I don't own a Windows computer, after hearing about that new virus that is going around. :rolleyes:
Same here! Installed and restarted - everything seems just fine, even Folding@Home.

[henners]

These are becoming as frequent as M$ patches!

At least these are preventative rather than post-operative.

[wrldwzrd89]

You did? Than I'm sorry to say, that you didn't setup your system well. OS 9 indeed was a very stable system for working, at least for my studio it worked and still does very well. It's not that eye-catchy and loaded with abilitys to do everything you maybe want to, but still is a work-horse 24 hours a day for me.
That was Mac OS 9's problem - all the third-party extensions you could install to customize your system inevitably lead to extension conflicts, freezes, random crashes, you name it! However, the Classic environment, although still subject to these issues, won't take Mac OS X down, even if it goes down in flames. If you DIDN'T install a bunch of extensions, though, Mac OS 9 was relatively stable (but not as good as Mac OS X).

[Westside guy]

except, of course, that it requires a restart... :(

It's that hard to be off the Intranet for a minute or two, eh? :D

[iHack]

except, of course, that it requires a restart... :(

reality

man, the most annoying thing about my intern is he turns of my powerbook at the end of the day (he is a regular windose user). Thanks to the multi-user abilities of OS X he is working happily on my 'book for two days a week, while I work on my iMac. But why he can't remember to just log off and close the lid is beyond me. I actually have to wait for the thing to start up next time I want to use it! ;)

M.

by the way en OT, my 'book is in the shop to have a problem with is video fixed. My LCD monitor won't display the R of RGB when connected to the mini-VGA jack, where it does work fine mirroring my iMac's display. And playing a DVD on my TV through the s-video dongle gives no picture at all, just a little static. The built-in screen is fine, though. Logic board failure anyone?

[Savage Henry]

Downloading it now on my iBook G3 (if anyone is even remotely interested(!)) ... I'll let you know if anything busts. via pigeon if necessary ...

[JamesDPS]

That was Mac OS 9's problem - all the third-party extensions you could install to customize your system inevitably lead to extension conflicts, freezes, random crashes, you name it! However, the Classic environment, although still subject to these issues, won't take Mac OS X down, even if it goes down in flames. If you DIDN'T install a bunch of extensions, though, Mac OS 9 was relatively stable (but not as good as Mac OS X).

Yeah I remember the days of competing with other kids in the dorm over how many extensions we could run simultaneously in System 7 without needing to reboot every couple hours... I think I had something like 25-30 icons appearing at boot just normally though (a couple hundred extensions total, obviously), and didn't have problems, even without running Conflict Catcher. Obviously it would still crash occasionally, but I'd say only about once a day -- and that was System 7! Ran Marathon like a dream...

Of course, under OS X, I have only had to force restart my laptop aboud 3 times, and it has never been turned off in the last 3 YEARS... so suddenly restarts for system software updates become a big hassle! :)

[virividox]

after installing it and repairingg permisions, nothing seems different. but i wasnt expecting anything to change to begin with.

the point is half the people in uni have their computers shot to hell with this new virus and im here, no virus protection, no firewall, and happy as a june bug

[Awimoway]

These are becoming as frequent as M$ patches!

You know what? You're right. I used to think this kind of comment was trolling, but it's true. But you know what else? I don't care. At least our updates come before any problem arises, unlike Windows which required yet another patch this morning to protect against yet another rapidly spreading worm that's already on the loose.

[J-mac]

These are becoming as frequent as M$ patches!

Doesn't MS have to release security patches hourly? ;)

[niter]

Snicker....the comments about the restart are in tune with exactly what I am thinking.

I am very proficient with Windows, but now after I have had my iBook I am spoiled rotten. I dislike the updates just because they are the only reason I ever restart my computer. I love marveling to the curious how all I have to do is shut my computer and wait for the blinking light...and I love hearing their little, "heh, that is pretty cool," after their lack of restart disbelief resulted in a demonstration.

Even more fun, my boss is rendered computerless as a virus/worm has caused all sorts of havoc on her computer. Okay, it is not too funny as she relies on it and we rely on it, BUT it is funny that she allowed herself to be pulled from the Apple world and a TiBook to a heavy Dell. The Apple users here are wowing her with our new iBook and Powerbooks to bring her back.

[Savage Henry]

Yep everything is back and joosey with my little iBook.

:)

[Earendil]

You know what? You're right. I used to think this kind of comment was trolling, but it's true. But you know what else? I don't care. At least our updates come before any problem arises, unlike Windows which required yet another patch this morning to protect against yet another rapidly spreading worm that's already on the loose.

And let's remember, Apple is keeping up with the times (as far as we know) even though NO one has yet exploited any holes in OSX. Microsoft on the other hand is playing catch up on security holes that are CURRENTLY being exploited, and have been around for months/years.

Microsoft does appear to be getting better at quick patches though. Maybe if they get good enough, LongHorn can be bought as a "serious of patches!", which is what XP is turning into.
And if they really want to make some money, charge ¢2 for the OS, and ¢1 for every patch :D

Tyler
Earendil

[Balooba]

Does this mean that Apple will release G5 Powerbooks this week?

Sorry, but someone had to say it... ;)

[Fuchal]

OS X contains many open-source projects which are continually updated. As these are updated, possibly fixing any flaws in those segments, OS X must be updated to remain as secure as possible.

It is NOT like Microsoft releasing update after update to fix security holes in their OS.

[dontmatter]

what prompted this? another fake worm?

What? Did that whole, first OS X virus thing turn out to be a fake! that woudl be amazing! how did I miss this? (or am I misreading?).

In other news, c'mon, apple, c'mon...you shouldn't NEED security updates. I mean, yeah, I'm never going to rate one negative, b/c it's always better that they come out with it, but... man, my patience is being tried....

hmph

[dontmatter]

Does this mean that Apple will release G5 Powerbooks this week?

Sorry, but someone had to say it... ;)

I'm sorry myself... I'm not sure someone actually HAD to say it... ;)

And, excuse me, the proper post is

"YAY!!! THIS MEANS G5 POWERBOOKS ON TUESDAY!"

nobody who does these posts actually puts the ambiguity in it of asking a question....jeeze, don't you know how to mock yourself? ;)

[realityisterror]

OS X contains many open-source projects which are continually updated. As these are updated, possibly fixing any flaws in those segments, OS X must be updated to remain as secure as possible.

It is NOT like Microsoft releasing update after update to fix security holes in their OS.

if there not really a security issue (i.e. our data or hardware is at risk to be stolen or damaged or something) i wouldn't call it a security update... the term itself is sort of disconcerting... maybe call it "defense against possible future security attack"? :)

but really, i don't like the term security update used that way... it makes me think i am insecure... plus, it reminds me of windows :eek:

reality

[hgoodman]

My iBook has frozen a couple of times since I downloaded the update an hour ago or so while I was using Safari and then iChat. Has this happened to anyone else??? And what should I do???

[PDubNYC]

My iBook has proven a couple of times since I downloaded the update an hour ago or so while I was using Safari and then iChat. Has this happened to anyone else??? And what should I do???


I recommend that you finish your comment first.

But for me, no problems so far on 3 G5s, an iMac and a PB.

[dontmatter]

Man, we are spoiled aren't we ... lol... I love it... That statement just brought back all of those distant, yet painful memories of 2 & 3 reboots a day... I can't believe I managed to get any work done at all...

Man, that's what I used to gloat about. Now my panther crashes on me about once a week :'(

still, no viruses, and I'm sure it's more stable than a wintel piece of crap. slap my wrists for wanting perfection ;)

[macrlz9]

umm.... i don't see it in my software update... and i can't find it on apple's website. anyone have the link or have it downloaded that could send it to me please? my email address is macrlz9@mac.com

[martman]

At least our updates come before any problem arises, unlike Windows which required yet another patch this morning to protect against yet another rapidly spreading worm that's already on the loose.

Wrong!
"A Microsoft patch was released on 13 April and revised on 28 April."
Knock MS all you want but at least be truthful about it.

[TRiPod]

These are becoming as frequent as M$ patches!
ya but these come before a problem becomes mainstream

[RBMaraman]

Does this mean that Apple will release G5 Powerbooks this week?

Sorry, but someone had to say it... ;)

G5 PowerBook's? Are you crazy! ;) :D

No, it means: NEW G6 POWERMAC'S TOMORROW!!!!!

[titaniumducky]

What? Did that whole, first OS X virus thing turn out to be a fake! that woudl be amazing! how did I miss this? (or am I misreading?).

In other news, c'mon, apple, c'mon...you shouldn't NEED security updates. I mean, yeah, I'm never going to rate one negative, b/c it's always better that they come out with it, but... man, my patience is being tried....

hmph

This has been stated before!

OS X is largely based on open source. If one of these open source components is updated, OS X needs to release a patch to update this portion of OS X. They are NOT like M$ security patches fixing a hole in the OS. "Security Update" is also the general term for miscellaneous updates.

[El Duderino]

sorry to change the obviously serious convo. that seems to be going on but i plan on purchasing a new PB and i was wondering how long they take to ship if its BTO. im leaving for vacation on the 18th and i want to be able to take it with me to Puerto Rico :D

[shamino]

except, of course, that it requires a restart... :(
The funny thing is that they probably don't have to require this if their Mach/BSD system is in any way similar to what I've seen on other UNIX systems.

On my Linux box, the only time I have to reboot is when the kernel is updated. Other updates (openssh, XFree86, glibc, etc.) can simply be installed without a restart. After installation, you stop and restart the service that you replaced, and leave the rest of the system alone. Heck, I've even replaced my SCSI card's drivers without a reboot (of course, this only works because that computer's boot disk is IDE - that upgrade did force me to temporarily unmount all SCSI devices.)

Apple should be able to do the same thing and upgrade most components (except for the kernel and file-system drivers) without a reboot. For everthing else, they should be able to just restart the affected service - even the Finder.

[shamino]

What? Did that whole, first OS X virus thing turn out to be a fake! that woudl be amazing! how did I miss this? (or am I misreading?).
An antivirus company released a "proof of concept" trojan horse program as a publicity stunt to convince MacOS X people that they need to buy antivirus software.

The program they released didn't use any exploits in the system. They used a trick that has existed since MacOS version 1. They wrote a classic application (code in CODE resources) and stored MP3 data in its data fork (nothing wrong with doing that) and created an icon that looks like an iTunes MP3 icon.

The idea is that you see the icon and double-click it, not realizing it's an application. So the application runs.

The antivirus company is claiming "see how easy it is for someone to trick you into launching a virus". But they're wrong. In order for this to work, the file has to be sent to you in a format that preserves resource forks (e.g. BinHex, MacBinary or Stuffit format) and music files are never transmitted that way. And the ability to write a program like this has existed since 1984, so they haven't even invented anything new.

Combined with the fact that nobody has actually released an exploit with this trick in the entire history of MacOS, most of us consider the whole thing a hoax.
In other news, c'mon, apple, c'mon...you shouldn't NEED security updates. I mean, yeah, I'm never going to rate one negative, b/c it's always better that they come out with it, but... man, my patience is being tried....
As long as a computers are attached to the internet, there will be potential security holes that have to be plugged. To believe that any piece of software is invulnerable is simply wishful thinking. When the inevitable security holes are discovered, they should be patched ASAP. Which is what Apple does.

The use of open source is a double-edged sword here. Having thousands of eyeballs all over the code means that these bugs are found and fixed quickly. But it also means that those bugs can be exploited quickly if they aren't fixed, since the virus-writing community won't have to reverse-engineer anything.

[nighthawk]

On my Linux box, the only time I have to reboot is when the kernel is updated. Other updates (openssh, XFree86, glibc, etc.) can simply be installed without a restart. After installation, you stop and restart the service that you replaced, and leave the rest of the system alone. Heck, I've even replaced my SCSI card's drivers without a reboot (of course, this only works because that computer's boot disk is IDE - that upgrade did force me to temporarily unmount all SCSI devices.)

Apple could likely get by with a user logout. But if there were updates to some of the background services such as Web, Remote Login or File sharing services, then they would need to be restarted too. But of course that would mean that you were about 90% rebooted anyways, so you might as well go all the way.

With OS X, there are so many dependances that are not part of Linux. Normally, this is a good thing which makes the overall Mac experience so worthwhile.

But come-on! Make a little sacrifice and click that "Restart..." button.

[nightporter]

maybe the fix for the following Quicktime problem is the reason for this latest update?

Apple fixes QuickTime flaw

Apple Computer has released a fix for a flaw in its QuickTime software which was discovered and notified to it by eEye Digital Security in February.

eEye released an advisory giving full details of the flaw which it said could allow an attacker to create a movie file that would cause malicious code to execute when opened.

http://smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/03/1083436515481.html

[dswoodley]

You know what? You're right. I used to think this kind of comment was trolling, but it's true. But you know what else? I don't care. At least our updates come before any problem arises, unlike Windows which required yet another patch this morning to protect against yet another rapidly spreading worm that's already on the loose.

That's mac propaganda. Microsoft did release the patch nearly two weeks ago with a whole bunch of other updates. I love Apple as much as anyone here, but can we stick to the facts? :)

[Tom800]

Hi - i'm getting some serious problems with my ibook g4
basically Itunes doesn't work any more, and also safari and ichat are quitting unexpectedly.

don't install update ibook users out there....

[parrothead]

Can someone please tell me what the big deal is about having to restart your computer? I would understand if we were talking about force restarting it because of a crash, but come on. It's not like you can only turn your mac off 5 times and then it will die. Macs may be designed to never have to be turned off, but sometimes it makes sense. Maybe I am missing something here, but if you can't wait the 1-2 minutes it takes to restart a computer, then you need to work on your patience.

[BillClinton]

My iBook has frozen a couple of times since I downloaded the update an hour ago or so while I was using Safari and then iChat. Has this happened to anyone else??? And what should I do???

On the first reboot, my monitor resolution was way out of wack. However after the zapping the PRAM, and repairing permissions, all is well

Oh By the way, running a single 1.8Ghz G5

[MegaSignal]

what prompted this? another fake worm?

Would this be in response to the Proof Of Concept we read about here recently?

[phetish]

Equipment: Dual USB iBook 600/256MB/Airport - 10.3.3 - 9.2.2

Here's what happed:

Installed the update (while doing/running many other programs) and while/after "optimizing" it locked up and froze hard. :eek:

Held down the power button to shutdown/reboot

Rebooted repeatedly, couldn't get past the apple/ spinning clock thing at boot up.

Reset PRAM - no change

Reset NVRAM - no change

Could not boot in "Verbose" mode.

Booted from Panther Install CD

Used "Change Startup Disk" to set 10.3.3 as the startup OS

Rebooted in "Verbose" mode - started Booting

Froze on "Starting Virtual Memory" - tried twice

Booted from Panther CD - "Change startup disk" to Classic OS

Booted Fine...

AAARRRGGGGHHHHH!

[7on]

So I installed the Update and my computer beeped. Then it booted up as normal. Oh it wasn't the chime, it beeped then chimed (like a 3 second delay between the two). Startled me at first and it has done it at least once before. Any ideas?

(PS. All seems well when I boot too)

[iMeowbot]

Apple should be able to do the same thing and upgrade most components (except for the kernel and file-system drivers) without a reboot. For everthing else, they should be able to just restart the affected service - even the Finder.

The hard part comes in with dynamically loaded shared code used by third-party software. They're probably hoping to avoid support calls involving two instances of a program running concurrently with different versions of the same libraries sitting around -- just try to reproduce that one!

As always, there's softwareupdate(8) (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/html/softwareupdate.8.html) which leaves the rebooting task to the user, for those who know for certain what's affected and want more control over the process.

[iBook]

I don't understand why people get upset about these updates.

Seems like the anger should be directed toward the people who try to exploit the OS gaps these updates plug. Also, these updates demonstrate that Apple is continuously working on OS X and making it better.

[rainman::|:|]

I don't understand why people get upset about these updates.

Seems like the anger should be directed toward the people who try to exploit the OS gaps these updates plug. Also, these updates demonstrate that Apple is continuously working on OS X and making it better.

The point of contention seems to have originated when Apple started calling all minor subsystem updates "security updates", making it sound like there's a virus loose, when it's simply a matter of upgrading to the latest version of CUPS (printing subsystem) or something equally trivial to most users. i think Apple renamed the updates to provide more of a uniform appearance to the casual user, and making it more obvious that "hey, you should download this, stupid". But they leave the details of what subsystems are affected, so you can choose not to install the update until later.

People don't like restarting, because when X became stable (Jaguar for most), and based on an operating system that was designed to run for years without a reboot, it's an annoyance that's rather uncommon. I mean, you could have a document open for weeks, then have to find a place to save and file it when you reboot, trivial stuff like that. People, in other words, are too pampered today :)

paul

[raynegus]

Installed on 20" iMac 10.3.3 with no problems here. iTunes 4.5 is nice too. I don't know why people have a problem with these updates. I have always installed new updates when they become available and have yet to have a problem (knock on wood).

I always restart, run MacJanitor and repair permissions before installing new software. I don't know if this helps anything or not, it's just a routine I do. Restarting is not that hard people.

Or maybe the complainers are Windoze trolls, who knows.

[SiliconAddict]

Reality check time for all those trashing Windows without having a clue. The patch for this was released on April 13th. The RPC vulnerability that spawned the dreaded Blaster? A full solid 2 months. Virus writers learn about these vulnerabilities when Microsoft releases a patch and creates a worm accordingly. The last 4 or 5 major worms have operated this way: All in response to MS releasing a patch. If people would do two things worms would be highly neutered:
1. Enable a firewall – Just about every worm breaks into a system through an open port. A simple firewall neuters a worm to the point that you don’t even need to apply the patch. God knows I don’t. I patch and reboot my system once every 2 months or so. People act like it’s the end of the freaking world if they have to reboot. Why? Does it really take OS X that long to boot? My XP system takes about 10 second to shut down and 17 second to boot. All told less then 30 second. :eek: Oh god! The computer is down for 27 seconds! I might have missed a spam sent to my e-mail account!!
2. Enable Auto-Updates – Patches shouldn’t be this pervasive and critical but reality is that they are for Windows. Anyone with broadband this really is a non-issue. (Last I heard 60% of the US is broadband enabled.) But for the rest downloading a 3-20MB file once a month is painful. Consequently MS is coming out with Delta installs in SP2 of XP. This is a new tech that will allow installs of specific code instead of needing to overwrite specific files. This should, from what I’ve read, decrease update sizes by 60% or greater. But for the rest auto updates would take care of any security related matters weeks before it becomes a critical nightmare.

As for patches in OS X. Another reality check folks. OS X is NOT a perfect OS. There are going to be patches. This is the reality of just about any OS. Your concern shouldn’t be if Apple is releasing a patch but how timely they release a patch. The longest MS has gone in creating a patch is 200 days. Usually much less but 200 days is asinine. From what I understand with Apple its a matter of weeks if not days. IMHO that is a major accomplishment on their part.

[SiliconAddict]

The point of contention seems to have originated when Apple started calling all minor subsystem updates "security updates", making it sound like there's a virus loose, when it's simply a matter of upgrading to the latest version of CUPS (printing subsystem) or something equally trivial to most users. i think Apple renamed the updates to provide more of a uniform appearance to the casual user, and making it more obvious that "hey, you should download this, stupid". But they leave the details of what subsystems are affected, so you can choose not to install the update until later.
paul

Security updates do just that. Enhance the security of an OS. No one ever said anything about a virus and to assume its virus or worm related is just dumb. It could just as easily be for securing the OS from a hack attack.
For CUPS it’s a good possibility that since there is an active port associated with CUPS that there is/was a security vulnerability that was fixed in the update. Possibly a buff overflow or some other security elevation flaw.

[shamino]

The hard part comes in with dynamically loaded shared code used by third-party software. They're probably hoping to avoid support calls involving two instances of a program running concurrently with different versions of the same libraries sitting around -- just try to reproduce that one!
True. But most of these kinds of problems could be solved by simply forcing a logout (or simply forcing you to quit apps, the way installers for classic versions of OS used to do.)

The big problem with rebooting isn't the time, but the fact that it takes background services off line.

My G4 at home is running BIND to act as a name server for the rest of my LAN. (I have six computers on the LAN, and keeping /etc/hosts in sync for them all is a real pain in the neck). It also runs apache to serve up certain files that I use from all over my LAN (like my browsers' home page and an ad-blocking proxy-autoconfig file). When this computer goes down, even if only for a minute or two, the other computers on the LAN are all affected.

If you have several people in your house using the network at once, this interruption annoys them all. During the shutdown/restart period, they can't access the internet because DNS is off-line.

This can be a major annoyance if it happens too often. A solution that allows the update without a restart, even if it forces you to quit all your apps or logoff, won't cause this kind of interruption. Even if the update requires restarting BIND and Apache, it's better - those apps can be restarted in a second or two, whereas a full shutdown/restart takes several minutes.

When a computer is acting as a server for other computers, downtime is bad. The more clients you have, the worse it gets. An upgrade solution that doesn't take your server processes down, or takes them down for only a second or two, is better than a solution that takes them down for minutes.

Where I work, the UNIX boxes rarely, if ever, get restarted. When upgrades are performed, most of the network never even realizes it. When one of the Windows servers gets upgraded, however, we all find out, because the restart causes us to lose all kinds of basic network connectivity (like e-mail and login authentication) for several minutes.

[donniedarko]

These are becoming as frequent as M$ patches!
not quiet.....??!!

[ebow]

True. But most of these kinds of problems could be solved by simply forcing a logout (or simply forcing you to quit apps, the way installers for classic versions of OS used to do.)

The big problem with rebooting isn't the time, but the fact that it takes background services off line.

My G4 at home is running BIND to act as a name server for the rest of my LAN. (I have six computers on the LAN, and keeping /etc/hosts in sync for them all is a real pain in the neck). It also runs apache to serve up certain files that I use from all over my LAN (like my browsers' home page and an ad-blocking proxy-autoconfig file). When this computer goes down, even if only for a minute or two, the other computers on the LAN are all affected.

If you have several people in your house using the network at once, this interruption annoys them all. During the shutdown/restart period, they can't access the internet because DNS is off-line.

This can be a major annoyance if it happens too often. A solution that allows the update without a restart, even if it forces you to quit all your apps or logoff, won't cause this kind of interruption. Even if the update requires restarting BIND and Apache, it's better - those apps can be restarted in a second or two, whereas a full shutdown/restart takes several minutes.

When a computer is acting as a server for other computers, downtime is bad. The more clients you have, the worse it gets. An upgrade solution that doesn't take your server processes down, or takes them down for only a second or two, is better than a solution that takes them down for minutes.

Where I work, the UNIX boxes rarely, if ever, get restarted. When upgrades are performed, most of the network never even realizes it. When one of the Windows servers gets upgraded, however, we all find out, because the restart causes us to lose all kinds of basic network connectivity (like e-mail and login authentication) for several minutes.

I agree that Apple should get more sophisticated about reinitializing certain services and functions vs. rebooting the entire system. But for the at-home situation you described...

No one said you have to install these updates and reboot during the peak working times. Network maintenance should take place when few or no users will be affected (often late in the evening or early in the morning at a workplace, but mid-day might make more sense if home users are most active in the morning and evening). Futhermore, if you're concerned about keeping your user workstation as immediately up-to-date as possible, then the same computer shouldn't be used as a server as well. (That's probably not economically realistic for you, but technically it's sound.) Basically, if you're using your workstation as a server, you have to be prepared to maintain it like a server--namely at a time that won't impact your users but might not be convenient for you.

[icon4x]

I am waiting for my new G5 to arrive... fedex says Monday. I started out on an Apple II GS when I was a kid, and then an Apple Mac Classic, then Windows has ruled my life for the past 6 years. I am switching back from MS to Apple for all the reasons described in this thread. My old system is a Win 98 Compaq Presario, 192 M RAM, 300 MHZ PII processor.... don't even know what the bus is.. think it's probably in the 60's. I like to keep my apps up to date (Photoshop, Flash, Audio editing stuff, etc.), but my computer is reaching the limit of these apps...

I have never ever had a virus, worm, or security problem running Win 98 (keeping my patches up to date, and using the free Zone Alarm firewall and Adaware to keep the system clean.). The new Win OS's are swiss cheese, which is why I have never upgraded computers or OS's. Win ME is by far the worst of the bunch, but now I am starting to think that XP is not much better. There should be class-action law suits against Windows for the security problems they create. ALL of their security problems come from unnecessary, stupid "enhancements" to their OS. You don't see that with Apple, so much.

I can't wait to switch over to Apple, OSX, and leave MS, it's security problems, and their "enhancements" far behind. Because OSX is Unix based, they are probably vulnerable to a TCP exploit that has been exposed (so is Cisco IOS, other UInix OS's, and anything else using the ISA TCP standards). I immagine this security update for MAC OS addresses that. There is a difference in having your OS create holes in your system, and an exploit being found in an industry wide standard.

[wdlove]

I appreciate that Apple continues to refine OS X. Don't mind rebooting either, just figured that they have a good reason for this process. I usually run repair permissions after installations.

[SiliconAddict]

I have never ever had a virus, worm, or security problem running Win 98 (keeping my patches up to date, and using the free Zone Alarm firewall and Adaware to keep the system clean.). The new Win OS's are swiss cheese, which is why I have never upgraded computers or OS's. Win ME is by far the worst of the bunch, but now I am starting to think that XP is not much better. There should be class-action law suits against Windows for the security problems they create. ALL of their security problems come from unnecessary, stupid "enhancements" to their OS. You don't see that with Apple, so much.

*sighs* small bit of info. All these big bad security holes and their associated patches have had to be applied to NT, 2000, XP, and 2003 (ME is still Win9x not NT based.) which means blaming all these enhancements for the security flaws is BS. These security flaws are 10+ years old. The fact is that its only NOW that MS has started dealing with them and consequently they have had to deal with 4 iterations of the problem. Other then craptastic programming this shows that adding features doesn't always make a system less secure. It sure as heck doesn't help (Standard sec concept. More services running = Greater risk of exposure.) but its not a security killer. Where the problem lies is with the number of services MS has running by default. Last I checked it was close to 40. They give you everything out of the box and there is your big sec hole. Apple on the other hand has minimum services running with an easy interface to turn them on if/when you need them. I think MS is learning this lession since SP2 for XP will disable a whole hose of services that are usually only needed in a corp environment.

Also claiming that 9x is better then NT is like claiming DOS is better then 9x. With a more robust architecture comes more complex code which can lead to mistakes of which MS has made a LOT. I'm not going to apologize for sloppiness of MS code but claiming that 9x is better then NT is er...how do I say this tactfully....Lame. Honestly I’d rather give up computing altogether then go back to 9x.

[DavidCar]

After reading some reports here of people having problems with this security upgrade on an iBook, I am hesitant to update my Dual USB iBook 600/256MB - 10.3.3 - 9.2.2 until I hear something more favorable.

[icon4x]

*sighs* small bit of info. All these big bad security holes and their associated patches have had to be applied to NT, 2000, XP, and 2003 (ME is still Win9x not NT based.) which means blaming all these enhancements for the security flaws is BS. ... More services running = Greater risk of exposure.) but its not a security killer. Where the problem lies is with the number of services MS has running by default. Last I checked it was close to 40. They give you everything out of the box and there is your big sec hole.

Sure. When an application is bundled in with the OS, and that application creates a hole, you are right... the OS should not be blamed, the stupid people who put that application in the bundle without testing its security impact should be blamed. As far as what to blame on the OS, there is plenty of other stuff.

Also claiming that 9x is better then NT is like claiming DOS is better then 9x. With a more robust architecture comes more complex code which can lead to mistakes of which MS has made a LOT. I'm not going to apologize for sloppiness of MS code but claiming that 9x is better then NT is er...how do I say this tactfully....Lame. Honestly I’d rather give up computing altogether then go back to 9x.

I didn't claim that 9x was better than NT. I don't know enough about NT to make that claim. All I was saying is that in 6 years I've never had a security problem with my 98 system, granted I've done a lot of work and research securing it. I know many people with security problems on XP (people who know a thing or two about 'puters). ME was probably the worst OS (or should I say OS bundle) security wise M$ has ever released.

Anyway, this is an Apple discussion board. I won't say any more about Windows and M$. I am switching over, and looking forward to it. I can't wait to start using OSX.

[JFreak]

Also claiming that 9x is better then NT is like claiming DOS is better then 9x.

no - claiming that 9x is better than nt is like claiming cp/m is better than dos.

(actually the 9x is not even an operating system but rather a gui for dos.)

[JFreak]

I Don't mind rebooting either, just figured that they have a good reason for this process.

i do mind, and no, they don't have a good reason if they are not making updates to kernel or file system of the boot drive. these are the only two good reasons to boot a unix system.

[bousozoku]

no - claiming that 9x is better than nt is like claiming cp/m is better than dos.

(actually the 9x is not even an operating system but rather a gui for dos.)

CP/M was better (more flexible) than DOS. :) Win9x was not better than WinNT.

[iBot]

I installed the latest Panther security update yesterday. Today my Mail and Safari applications have stopped working. They appear to open, but no window shows up on the screen. I can still access the command menu in each program, but the command for open new window in each app doesn't work.

Anyone else encounter this problem after yesterday's update? :(

[JFreak]

CP/M was better (more flexible) than DOS. :) Win9x was not better than WinNT.

cp/m was better than dos until ms released v5.0 which btw drove ibm crazy. and as i stated before, 9x is only a gui for dos and definetely worse than nt. hell, dos isn't even an operating system (as the definition goes) but nt is - and remember, NT was not written by microsoft, but instead has inherited A LOT of vms vax code.

[bousozoku]

cp/m was better than dos until ms released v5.0 which btw drove ibm crazy. and as i stated before, 9x is only a gui for dos and definetely worse than nt. hell, dos isn't even an operating system (as the definition goes) but nt is - and remember, NT was not written by microsoft, but instead has inherited A LOT of vms vax code.

IBM also released their own version 5, which wasn't much different. ;) Some of the CP/M device names were archaic at the time since we had gone away from paper tape. Writing a communications application required using PUN: and RDR: if you were using CP/M-80 v2.2. :D

As far as WinNT not being written by Microsoft or having Vax/VMS code in it, this is the first I've heard of it. A lot of NT was derived from IBM's OS/2 design, which was a miniature version of IBM's VM/CMS. In fact, many of the original error messages in WinNT 3.51 were OS/2 messages. :D MS also manipulated the Mach kernel to meet their needs and changed the kernel again in WinNT 4.0 to add the graphics subsystem since the graphics performance was substandard.

[JFreak]

As far as WinNT not being written by Microsoft or having Vax/VMS code in it, this is the first I've heard of it. A lot of NT was derived from IBM's OS/2 design, which was a miniature version of IBM's VM/CMS. In fact, many of the original error messages in WinNT 3.51 were OS/2 messages. :D MS also manipulated the Mach kernel to meet their needs and changed the kernel again in WinNT 4.0 to add the graphics subsystem since the graphics performance was substandard.

well, do the research, it is true - microsoft has never written an operating system by themselves :) they bought dos and asked ibm to write os/2 but didn't want to market it when it was about to be finished. their latest - the NT - is an interesting story, because they had many companies together writing the os for them (and for that reason nt initially supported many cpu architechtures, the feature later dropped by microsoft). in addition to a great deal of vax code there must have been a lot of os/2 code because ibm was also developing it at that time, plus one of the companies involved were digital, which brought a lot of insight in memory handling.

microsoft is not a software company. it is a marketing house. it does pretty damn good job in marketing somebody else's products as its own ;)

[Felix_the_Mac]

the point is half the people in uni have their computers shot to hell with this new virus and im here, no virus protection, no firewall, and happy as a june bug

I feel smug that (currently) I am not plagued by viruses, you seem to feel the same way.

However, I have my firewall turned ON and any unnecessary services disabled.

I don't wish to be rude, however not using simple (& free) steps to protect yourself is not sensible.

Please, everybody, turn your firewalls on. Collectively this will allow us all to stay smug for longer :-).

(i.e. with our firewalls on it will be much harder for some evil spotty faced kid to cause us misery).

Everybody Else:
Please, prettty please, take your discussion of Windows to a more appropriate location. As a recent switcher, I find that it gives me nightmares.

[iHack]

no - claiming that 9x is better than nt is like claiming cp/m is better than dos.

(actually the 9x is not even an operating system but rather a gui for dos.)

<sarcasm>
(and actually the OS X is not even an operating system but rather a gui for FreeBSD)
</sarcasm>

Jeez, I thought i had seen the last of these "it's an OS/it's a gui" discussions around '96/'97. It's pointless.

[JFreak]

<sarcasm>
(and actually the OS X is not even an operating system but rather a gui for FreeBSD)
</sarcasm>

Jeez, I thought i had seen the last of these "it's an OS/it's a gui" discussions around '96/'97. It's pointless.

but that's a fact, osx is a GUI and that's what apple is selling! they give darwin (the OS) for free - for ppc and x86.

[bousozoku]

well, do the research, it is true - microsoft has never written an operating system by themselves :) they bought dos and asked ibm to write os/2 but didn't want to market it when it was about to be finished. their latest - the NT - is an interesting story, because they had many companies together writing the os for them (and for that reason nt initially supported many cpu architechtures, the feature later dropped by microsoft). in addition to a great deal of vax code there must have been a lot of os/2 code because ibm was also developing it at that time, plus one of the companies involved were digital, which brought a lot of insight in memory handling.

microsoft is not a software company. it is a marketing house. it does pretty damn good job in marketing somebody else's products as its own ;)

I think someone's a little confused and it's not me. Microsoft didn't ask IBM to write OS/2. IBM paid Microsoft to write OS/2 to their design. IBM didn't do anything with VAX--they used VM/CMS as a basis for the design of OS/2.

Microsoft did buy 86-DOS from Tim Paterson and quickly renamed it, later hiring him to lead the project.

[Mac Dummy]

Man, we are spoiled aren't we ... lol... I love it... That statement just brought back all of those distant, yet painful memories of 2 & 3 reboots a day... I can't believe I managed to get any work done at all...

Welcome to Windows! :mad:

[JJTiger1]

In other news, c'mon, apple, c'mon...you shouldn't NEED security updates.

Apple "Security Update" is really a minor OS update.

Do you really want to be running last month's 10.3.3.04.04.05 instead of this month's 10.3.3.04.05.03?

... Just call it Security Update 2004-05-03 instead of mucking around with iterations of the basic OS number. :rolleyes:

[coolbreeze]

Well, after updating, Mail crashed (1st time ever) on startup. Works now.

iTunes 4.5 crashes every time I try to listen to the internet radio station: Electronica>Music One (24/7 Mix of Today's Dance...the 128kps stream.

Give it a try, and let me know if you can successfully listen to this stream. :mad:

EDIT: Running 10.3.3, most current everything (software-wise).

[Rower_CPU]

Well, after updating, Mail crashed (1st time ever) on startup. Works now.

iTunes 4.5 crashes every time I try to listen to the internet radio station: Electronica>Music One (24/7 Mix of Today's Dance...the 128kps stream.

Give it a try, and let me know if you can successfully listen to this stream. :mad:

EDIT: Running 10.3.3, most current everything (software-wise).

I was getting the same thing on Top 40>Hitzradio.com earlier, but it's stopped now. Music One plays fine for me.

[dontmatter]

well, it's way too late for anybody to read this but.... apple decided to slip something in here besides updates to actual security. It breakes gettunes.

The battle is taken up a notch, it seems.

[nighthawk]

well, it's way too late for anybody to read this but.... apple decided to slip something in here besides updates to actual security. It breakes gettunes.

The battle is taken up a notch, it seems.

Of course that was a security update. It was just not a security update to protect *your* computer.