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simply258
May 4, 2004, 08:21 AM
CUPERTINO, California— May 4, 2004— Apple® today announced that Steve Jobs will kick off its Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC) with a keynote on Monday, June 28, 2004, beginning at 10:00 a.m. at San Francisco’s Moscone West. This year's keynote will include a preview of “Tiger,” the next major release of Mac® OS X.

Apple Press Release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/may/04wwdc.html)

radhak
May 4, 2004, 08:41 AM
So when is Tiger going to be out? (that name is pretty bland, after Panther :rolleyes: )

Btw, the cost of attending this WWDC is $1595!!! Who can afford to attend at those prices? Has anybody attended any of these? Who paid?

CmdrLaForge
May 4, 2004, 08:43 AM
So Tiger is the name

gwuMACaddict
May 4, 2004, 08:55 AM
i thought we knew that tiger was the name for a while now?

anyhow- this is pretty cool. any word on what some of the new features are going to be?

simply258
May 4, 2004, 09:04 AM
Btw, the cost of attending this WWDC is $1595!!! Who can afford to attend at those prices? Has anybody attended any of these? Who paid?
Developers maybe ? After all, this is a developers conference, not for everyone. And you can deduct $300 off of that price if you register early before May 14.

applemacdude
May 4, 2004, 09:16 AM
This is big...But if they do announce it does that mean we have to pay again?

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 09:28 AM
This is big...But if they do announce it does that mean we have to pay again?

Only if you want to upgrade. If you are happy your Panther you don't have to upgrade. I know plenty of people who are still using Jaguar, and I will probably wait a couple of years before upgrading (Ocelot?, Cougar?).

I look at it like this, on Apple you can upgrade your OS yearly at $99 or so; on Windows, you can upgrade a every three years or so for $300. How often do people really upgrade their Windows OS. By the time the next release comes out, usually your whole computer is obsolete. Meanwhile, I upgraded to Panther on my G3 iMac and had a rather noticable speed increase.

ps. I noticed this release as well. It really should be on the front page of MacRumors. How do we tell Arn?

Veldek
May 4, 2004, 09:34 AM
I noticed this release as well. It really should be on the front page of MacRumors. How do we tell Arn?


There’s a „Submit“ link in the menubar on the front page...

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 09:45 AM
There’s a „Submit“ link in the menubar on the front page...

Thanks, I searched after I posted and found it. I gave credit to simply258 for orginally posting it. I signed up for the WWDC email list so I would stay updated on what was going to happen there.

I assume WWDC keynotes are streamed over the web just like the MacWorld keynote was.

claytonbench
May 4, 2004, 09:49 AM
I will order my copy immediately after the Apple Store reopens after WWDC. Maybe even a new G5, iPod, and Display. Even though i havent had mine 6 months yet.

nesbitt_a
May 4, 2004, 09:51 AM
Guys, when Steve Jobs announced Panther at WWDC 2003 - didn't he do the whole "Today, Jaguar is over. Today we preview Panther.." thing. If Apple are announcing Tiger - they obviously have something cool under their hats - and want as big a hype, and as many people tuning in, and present as they can get?

-- Andrew

RBMaraman
May 4, 2004, 09:57 AM
I will order my copy immediately after the Apple Store reopens after WWDC. Maybe even a new G5, iPod, and Display. Even though i havent had mine 6 months yet.

It won't be for sale that day, or even available for pre-order. It's just being previewed.

At last years WWDC, Steve previewed Panther. It wasn't available for pre-order until September, and it wasn't sold until october.

DreaminDirector
May 4, 2004, 10:03 AM
Do we know any of the enhancements/features yet? Or is it still all pretty quiet?

I don't know what feature can top exposé, but if anyone can make the near perfect Panther better, good ol' Steve can.

Abstract
May 4, 2004, 10:10 AM
Oh god, another $150 Cdn upgrade fee.

Do I have to pay it? No, but I'd feel left out if I didn't. The new features are always sweet-ass. Knowing that there are sweet features in OSX Tiger 10.4 and not being able to try them out is like taking an ex-alcoholic into a bar to......talk.

I'm weak. I'll break. I'll always pay because the features are always cool. Steve.....oh Steve..... please don't make the features kick ass this year. :o

Trimix
May 4, 2004, 10:12 AM
sj will demonstrate TIGER on the new 23inch G5 i-mac, yeah !

kansast
May 4, 2004, 10:12 AM
i thought we knew that tiger was the name for a while now?


I just think we were all hoping it wasn't true. Tiger is just so generic.. nothing against any Tigers out there :-)

JtheLemur
May 4, 2004, 10:13 AM
Maybe Tiger will finally fix my occasionally non-working Finder keyboard shortcuts. You know, I like using things like command-w to close a g*ddam window! Argh!

copperpipe
May 4, 2004, 10:15 AM
I am still having networking issues with 10.3, so if Tiger can finally get a kick butt network then I'm in otherwise, I'll wait. What else could they possibly be adding to this OS, anyway? I can't wait to see what they've dreamed up...

andyduncan
May 4, 2004, 10:16 AM
It may not be stated in the press release, but the WWDC page (http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/) states it explicitly:

Preview the highly evolved Mac OS X v10.4 “Tiger.”

Digipimp
May 4, 2004, 10:17 AM
Oh man I'm so hoping they play "Eye of the Tiger" at this WWDC

:rolleyes:

billyboy
May 4, 2004, 10:20 AM
Do we know any of the enhancements/features yet? Or is it still all pretty quiet?

I don't know what feature can top exposé, but if anyone can make the near perfect Panther better, good ol' Steve can.

What is the longest keynote speech ever?

Let's hear Steve woo the world with a cocoa Finder not like the current finder. That would be nice - just so as to keep well away from Windows influence, and also to ensure that the central part of the OS is actually in keeping with the rest of the Cocoa software that developers are dutifully turfing out nine to the dozen.

Multiple docks - preferably ones that dont clog up with all open apps would be nice too.

And a general interface speed increase so my Panther nippy G4 PB at least feels like a rocket powered G5 on the front end.

And some serious work getting Services up to speed for the mother of all copy/paste/instantaneous application switching.

And speech to text built in, and text to speech made more life like, and moused gestures, and resizing of windows on all sides, and tear off menus and no restarts after installing any software and the ability to cmd drag ALL menubar apps, not just Apple's and .......

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 10:21 AM
I actually like the idea of yearly OS updates. Why wait three years for a bigger when you can add new features every twelve months (now if they could only update the PowerMacs that often and maybe advertise the new OS!)

I would expect that if Apple uses a tiger look for the box. They go with a white tiger rather than the "normal" orange tiger look.

http://www.thinkage.on.ca/~akilgour/tiger/w-tiger.gif

B@SS_SHOCK
May 4, 2004, 10:21 AM
Tiger still doen't sound right. 10.4 Bengal or 10.4 Tigris? :rolleyes:

wymer100
May 4, 2004, 10:21 AM
Have you noticed that the rumor sites have mentioned very little about the new features in the up coming upgrades. Has apple clamped down harder on leaks, or have the features just not been set, yet?

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 10:22 AM
Maybe Tiger will finally fix my occasionally non-working Finder keyboard shortcuts. You know, I like using things like command-w to close a g*ddam window! Argh!

I have not heard about this problem before. It is a wide spread issue?

Veldek
May 4, 2004, 10:23 AM
I don’t understand what everyone has against the name "Tiger". It’s just another cat, why should a panther be better than it? I think tigers are powerful enough to justify their name being used by Mac OS X.

caveman_uk
May 4, 2004, 10:24 AM
Btw, the cost of attending this WWDC is $1595!!! Who can afford to attend at those prices? Has anybody attended any of these? Who paid?
You haven't attended many conferences then? I've never been to any IT related ones but I can assure you that big conferences in the US for medicinal chemistry or pharmaceuticals are in a similar ballpark for price. In the case of those your employer usually pays...

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 10:31 AM
You haven't attended many conferences then? I've never been to any IT related ones but I can assure you that big conferences in the US for medicinal chemistry or pharmaceuticals are in a similar ballpark for price. In the case of those your employer usually pays...

Exactly! It seems very odd to see people complaining about the price. This is not for Joe Macuser. Just a quick look at the conference schedule (http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/calendar/monday_am.html) and you will realize that most users even powerusers don't need to attend things like Creating Application Clusters for Apache and MySQL or How to Test and Debug Your Cross-Platform Java Application on Mac OS X. This conference if for people developing Mac software not using it.

CmdrLaForge
May 4, 2004, 10:34 AM
i thought we knew that tiger was the name for a while now?

anyhow- this is pretty cool. any word on what some of the new features are going to be?

It was a rumor. Now we know.

AirUncleP
May 4, 2004, 10:34 AM
Jobs will have a special guest with him on stage. None other than that Roy, or was it Sigfried, guy who almost got his head ripped off by one of his "pet" tigers. He will be demo-ing a new access feature allowing users to operate OS 10.4 when they have no face.

stoid
May 4, 2004, 10:35 AM
I think that by Panther, Mac OS X is finally a great 'regular' user OS. I think that the biggest improvements of Tiger will not be as WOW for the average user (nothing new like Exposé) but it will have a bunch of awesome new features that will blow away the professional users.

Still, Apple may continue to kick everyone's ass again! :D :eek:

twinturbo
May 4, 2004, 10:35 AM
I'm hoping for a metadata "BeOS-like" finder. Something that would simply put WinFS to shame.

stoid
May 4, 2004, 10:38 AM
I'm hoping for a metadata "BeOS-like" finder. Something that would simply put WinFS to shame.

;)

It would be killer if Apple could get the queried file system thing that Longhorn is/was featuring before Microsoft gets it developed.

PlanB
May 4, 2004, 10:38 AM
METADATA??? please explain a little for those of us who don t know what the hell that is

and lets start some speculation of new features this highly evolved beast will have

like coffee maker (for the pro users lol)

anjaki
May 4, 2004, 10:39 AM
I've heard a rumour that Apple have done a sponsering deal with Siegfried and Roy for the use of the name Tiger, and that during the WWDC, via a live video link (probably iChat), Steve Jobs will remotely cut off Roys life support system.

azdude
May 4, 2004, 10:39 AM
I think that by Panther, Mac OS X is finally a great 'regular' user OS. I think that the biggest improvements of Tiger will not be as WOW for the average user (nothing new like Exposé) but it will have a bunch of awesome new features that will blow away the professional users.

I disagree. Apple's out to make money. This means getting 'the average user' to want to buy 10.4. If they're smart, they'll make Tiger every bit as cool as Panther was to us a year ago.

That being said, they often have other ways of getting people to upgrade than a truly "wow" upgrade. For example, make all newly-updated Apple software require the new OS. :D We know how it is. ;) Safari, iTunes, iLife, etc...

elgruga
May 4, 2004, 10:42 AM
So presumably this means the new G5 powerbooks will be released soon.

PlanB
May 4, 2004, 10:42 AM
So presumably this means the new G5 powerbooks will be released soon.

yeah um... any year now ;)

virividox
May 4, 2004, 10:44 AM
im curious s the new features, wish they bring back the favorites in the finder

Mr. Anderson
May 4, 2004, 10:47 AM
im curious s the new features, wish they bring back the favorites in the finder

the smart thing would be to make the finder customizable - that way since every user likes things different, they wouldn't have to worry about all the complaints with the new changes....you make it what you want.

D

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 10:48 AM
I disagree. Apple's out to make money. This means getting 'the average user' to want to buy 10.4. If they're smart, they'll make Tiger every bit as cool as Panther was to us a year ago.

That being said, they often have other ways of getting people to upgrade than a truly "wow" upgrade. For example, make all newly-updated Apple software require the new OS. :D We know how it is. ;) Safari, iTunes, iLife, etc...

More importantly if it is not a cool/powerful as Panther was in comparison to Jaguar, they have to convince that it is.
;)

azdude
May 4, 2004, 10:49 AM
the smart thing would be to make the finder customizable - that way since every user likes things different, they wouldn't have to worry about all the complaints with the new changes....you make it what you want.

D

Apple? Choice? Customization? Nah... ;)

t^3
May 4, 2004, 10:49 AM
I don’t understand what everyone has against the name "Tiger". It’s just another cat, why should a panther be better than it? I think tigers are powerful enough to justify their name being used by Mac OS X.

I think it's really because tigers (as well as lions) are quite common, found in practically every zoo and are not as "exotic" as cheetahs, pumas, jaguars, and panthers. We Mac users like to see our OS as being exotic and not common, unlike Windows.

stoid
May 4, 2004, 10:52 AM
Apple? Choice? Customization? Nah... ;)

Apple:Customization::Microsoft:Security

azdude
May 4, 2004, 10:52 AM
The only thing that REALLY continues to bug me (even in Panther!) is SMB sharing. I'm still having difficulties. It got much better in Panther, and a tiny bit better in each 10.3.x release, but it's still horribly unreliable. Even now, at 10.3.3, I'm still finding myself using CMD-K because it works much better.

Aside from them improving SMB shares, there's nothing I really ask for in Tiger. However, I expect Apple to do what they always do, and show me things I never knew I needed. I'll be getting Tiger ASAP, I'm sure. :D

nickdaze
May 4, 2004, 10:52 AM
So Tiger is the name

I still prefer Sabertooth.

Vonnie
May 4, 2004, 10:53 AM
Well, I'm hoping for the befs-like filesystem.. Smart folders in the finder, own definable meta-data. And I hope they integrate it with the other applications.

I also hope they announce XCode 2.0, with some of the features Eclipse has. Refactoring tools, quick-fix, organise imports, maybe even an UML program that can generate/reverse engineer objectiveC/cocoa source code.

Iroganai
May 4, 2004, 10:56 AM
Panther seems quite perfect for me :)
especially compared to Jaguar and its earlier cousins.

Of course there are loose ends here and there,
but I can't imagine a Mac OS X qualitatively more perfect than this !

Do you have any ideas for great new features ?

Yes, Be-like filesystem will be huge...

&RU
May 4, 2004, 10:59 AM
I wasn't digging "Tiger", until I saw that white (Siberian?) tiger.

The number one feature for me will be, "DON'T BREAK MY PROGRAMS!" Panther is the best MacOS ever, but it killed a lot of software I need for work.

The number two feature, and you may think this is lame -- but it would sell a poopload of copies, "MAKE IT WORK ON MY 603e"!

And last but not least, do for WINE what they did for KHTML with Safari -- I would love to ditch VPC and my Windows EULA.

Just my 2 cents.

Veldek
May 4, 2004, 11:01 AM
At least, we know about one new feature: Text-to-Speech is known to be introduced in 10.4, isn’t it?

allpar
May 4, 2004, 11:02 AM
... and greater, easier Linux compatibility. It'd be great to be able to load Debian and Red Hat packages "just like that." Suddenly we'd have Amaya and all sorts of other apps just a few commands or clicks away...y'know, people like me are rapidly becoming a minority in the Mac world; they're attracting the hard core science and IT pros more and more with their UNIX structures. Easing the use of Linux apps would be a killer. So, of course, would be making it easier to use SMB...and for Heaven's sake, integrating FruitMenu and X-Assist and KILLING command-H and command-M and universals. (Great idea, taking the universal "search and replace" and the PowerPoint "new slide" commands and pre-empting 'em. Why not use command-P and command-N too?)

...and let's add better Java speed and compatibility! That's also a key "why-not" issue...

...and, yes, more ease of flexibility, in where to store your various libraries; and de-mystifying the folder structure'd be nice too. Someday it'd be nice to have Classic *libraries* so you don't need to run Classic, but I suspect that's impossible, so I won't hope.

... a better Terminal - like integrated iTerm! or something similar ...

... an option to use System 9-style open/save boxes... I *hate* both current options.

... I'm sure there are LOTS of other requests.

svenas1
May 4, 2004, 11:02 AM
;)

It would be killer if Apple could get the queried file system thing that Longhorn is/was featuring before Microsoft gets it developed.

Absolutely. There really needs to be more metadata, and it should be user definable. Here's to the people who came from Be Inc to actually get their say and implement their cool stuff into the OS X Finder. I know I could use this right now, and I'm positive that many will find it great once they use it properly. Think ID3 tags for all Finder files. I sure hope this is happening

danman
May 4, 2004, 11:02 AM
Which is a good thing:

from the WWDC page:

'...discover how Tiger will fuel the next generation of developer innovation.'

Which means lots and lots of innovation under the hood to allow new and innovative applications to be delivered.

I would guess: Improvements to core services and apps, probably speed enhancements again, but mostly creating the platform for developers to build on.

I reckon that's eveb more interesting than new Apple addons, because those 'built for OSX' apps out there will take another big leap in performance and utility.

&RU
May 4, 2004, 11:04 AM
A befs would be great, but does anyone remember the boot times? Nothing is more impressive than booting up inside of 30 seconds.

allpar
May 4, 2004, 11:04 AM
Almost forgot: a replacement for or, preferably, an upgrade to HyperCard (usable by normal people) ...

...and yes, $1600 is normal for a professional conference even in my field (organizational development and change, see second URL in my sig)

Metatron
May 4, 2004, 11:07 AM
Mabey I am the only one to think of this yet, but will this be a full 64 bit OS? Not a 32 bit with 64 bit extensions. A true 64 bit os would really have a performance boost with G5 across the board.....G5 Powermac, G5 PowerBook, G5 iMac, etc. I would think this would be his biggest announcment.

Yes I know that iTunes and every other program would have to recompled, but isn't that what xCode is for? I am just ready for those G5 powerbooks. The last update was okay. A 9700 in a powerbook is awsome, and in reality a 1.5 G4 isn't shabby. They run on very little power. But I cannot make myself spend 2500 bucks on a machine that has a slower bus speed that my P3 from several years ago.

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 11:08 AM
I think it's really because tigers (as well as lions) are quite common, found in practically every zoo and are not as "exotic" as cheetahs, pumas, jaguars, and panthers. We Mac users like to see our OS as being exotic and not common, unlike Windows.

The only bad thing about the name is that tigers are an endangered species (http://www.ecobeetle.com/tiger.htm). Of course, so are almost all of the big cats.

The Longhorn (http://www.scz.org/animals/c/lnghrn.html) on the other hand was saved by a congressional act.

I can't get over the fact that the next version of MicroSoft OS is named for something that the namesake of Apple's next OS would eat for lunch. Literally.

musicpyrite
May 4, 2004, 11:10 AM
I don't know what feature can top exposé, but if anyone can make the near perfect Panther better, good ol' Steve can.

I know one, Make Tiger a 3D OS!!!

Sweet!!! :D :D :D

That would be the ultimate one-up to M$!!

Veldek
May 4, 2004, 11:10 AM
Mabey I am the only one to think of this yet, but will this be a full 64 bit OS? Not a 32 bit with 64 bit extensions. A true 64 bit os would really have a performance boost with G5 across the board.....G5 Powermac, G5 PowerBook, G5 iMac, etc. I would think this would be his biggest announcment.

Yes I know that iTunes and every other program would have to recompled, but isn't that what xCode is for? I am just ready for those G5 powerbooks. The last update was okay. A 9700 in a powerbook is awsome, and in reality a 1.5 G4 isn't shabby. They run on very little power. But I cannot make myself spend 2500 bucks on a machine that has a slower bus speed that my P3 from several years ago.

I think this could be too early. It would be great to have a true 64bit OS, but in my opinion we won't see this before 10.5, because the G5 is just in the Power Macs yet. Even if one assumes it will come to iMacs and PowerBooks in the next months, I still think Apple won't do it yet.

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 11:12 AM
Mabey I am the only one to think of this yet, but will this be a full 64 bit OS? Not a 32 bit with 64 bit extensions. A true 64 bit os would really have a performance boost with G5 across the board.....G5 Powermac, G5 PowerBook, G5 iMac, etc. I would think this would be his biggest announcment.

Yes I know that iTunes and every other program would have to recompled, but isn't that what xCode is for? I am just ready for those G5 powerbooks. The last update was okay. A 9700 in a powerbook is awsome, and in reality a 1.5 G4 isn't shabby. They run on very little power. But I cannot make myself spend 2500 bucks on a machine that has a slower bus speed that my P3 from several years ago.

I won't happen. I would think that it will be a while (couple years) before we see a full 64 bit OS.

It will come just after the G5 iBooks :)

Hes Nikke
May 4, 2004, 11:15 AM
So when is Tiger going to be out? (that name is pretty bland, after Panther :rolleyes: )

Btw, the cost of attending this WWDC is $1595!!! Who can afford to attend at those prices? Has anybody attended any of these? Who paid?

i am going for my first time... for free - i got a scholarship :D

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/students/

Metatron
May 4, 2004, 11:15 AM
I think this could be too early. It would be great to have a true 64bit OS, but in my opinion we won't see this before 10.5, because the G5 is just in the Power Macs yet. Even if one assumes it will come to iMacs and PowerBooks in the next months, I still think Apple won't do it yet.

I don't think this would be to early....assuming IBM has that 3 ghz beast brewing. If they can work out those bugs in the fab. I really think that 10.4 will be a true 64 bit os. Plus, XP 64 bit will be out this year....It would look good on Steve's half to beat ol' Microcrap to the punch again. I will agree with you on this point that 10.5 will be a 64 bit OS. I just hope it is not the first.

Oh.....then they could filter the slower G5's into the ibook. A G5 1.6 iBook, and a G5 2.8 Powerbook, and dual G5 3.2 Powermac. Makes sense in my book.

thogs_cave
May 4, 2004, 11:18 AM
A befs would be great, but does anyone remember the boot times? Nothing is more impressive than booting up inside of 30 seconds.

Much more impressive than boot times is uptime. Then you don't have to *see* the boot times...

Live OS patching would be useful. It's annoying to have to reboot with simple updates.

denm316
May 4, 2004, 11:23 AM
Jobs will have a special guest with him on stage. None other than that Roy, or was it Sigfried, guy who almost got his head ripped off by one of his "pet" tigers. He will be demo-ing a new access feature allowing users to operate OS 10.4 when they have no face.

That was one of the best comments I have ever read.

stoid
May 4, 2004, 11:23 AM
At least, we know about one new feature: Text-to-Speech is known to be introduced in 10.4, isn’t it?

It's already in the current versions of OS X, but it hasn't had an overhaul since it's OS 9 days, and THAT would be a kick-ass feature that alone would get me to purchase 10.4

BostonPops
May 4, 2004, 11:23 AM
I think it's really because tigers (as well as lions) are quite common, found in practically every zoo and are not as "exotic" as cheetahs, pumas, jaguars, and panthers. We Mac users like to see our OS as being exotic and not common, unlike Windows.

Exactly. It's as if, for example, a computer company wanted to name themselves after a piece of fruit. They would certainly pick something exotic like a kiwi or papaya. No one in their right mind would pick something so common and pedestrian as...say...an app....uh....nevermind. :D

stoid
May 4, 2004, 11:26 AM
i am going for my first time... for free - i got a scholarship :D

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/students/

That would be awesome as I'd love to attend a WWDC as a CS major. Too bad I'd still have to find money for airfare.

I may have an internship with MTV or VH1 next summer so maybe I can get in free then since I'm already over there.

BTW, what's with the hex code in your sig?

thogs_cave
May 4, 2004, 11:27 AM
Yes I know that iTunes and every other program would have to recompled, but isn't that what xCode is for? I am just ready for those G5 powerbooks. The last update was okay. A 9700 in a powerbook is awsome, and in reality a 1.5 G4 isn't shabby. They run on very little power. But I cannot make myself spend 2500 bucks on a machine that has a slower bus speed that my P3 from several years ago.

You wouldn't need a recompile right away - most big UNIX vendors went 64-bit *years* ago, and the transition was easy. For example, 64-bit Solaris is over five years old, and you can still run 32-bit without a problem - I believe that Solaris 10 is the first version that will not run on 32-bit hardware. It's not a huge transition like going from 68K to PPC was.

Plus, if you want a 64-bit system today, you can always spend a couple of hundred on eBay for a used Ultra 2 with a pair of 300MHz procs, FW SCSI, and a gig of RAM. Solaris is a free download, and voila! You have a nice 64-bit UNIX desktop. I've got a couple sitting right next to my G5... :-)

stoid
May 4, 2004, 11:29 AM
I don't think this would be to early....assuming IBM has that 3 ghz beast brewing. If they can work out those bugs in the fab. I really think that 10.4 will be a true 64 bit os. Plus, XP 64 bit will be out this year....It would look good on Steve's half to beat ol' Microcrap to the punch again. I will agree with you on this point that 10.5 will be a 64 bit OS. I just hope it is not the first.

Oh.....then they could filter the slower G5's into the ibook. A G5 1.6 iBook, and a G5 2.8 Powerbook, and dual G5 3.2 Powermac. Makes sense in my book.

It seems like having a 64-bit OS would not give you much speed as the finder doesn't perform any processor intensive tasks that could even benefit from the higher architecture. Is it anything more than a "Mine's bigger!" argument to have a 64-bit OS?

asif3
May 4, 2004, 11:29 AM
Oh man I'm so hoping they play "Eye of the Tiger" at this WWDC

:rolleyes:

lol, you made me spit my tea out! :D

MoparShaha
May 4, 2004, 11:30 AM
I'm very excited by this announcement. It seems I just got into the groove with Panther, but I'm always happy to get a new OS. Thus the countdown starts to WWDC...

denm316
May 4, 2004, 11:31 AM
I dont mind the spending of $129 every year for an O/S update, as long as there are features to go with it. I would have bought Panther for just Expose, because it is one of the best features around. If Apple can amaze me again(which I am sure they will), I will gladly hand over my $129

adamfilip
May 4, 2004, 11:32 AM
I was announced before that 10.4 would bring. screen reader ability built in. for those with disabilities.

I bet also a 3D desktop. aka Quartz Unlimited ! :)

lem0nayde
May 4, 2004, 11:33 AM
And last but not least, do for WINE what they did for KHTML with Safari -- I would love to ditch VPC and my Windows EULA.Just my 2 cents.

What is WINE? I want to look it up but, of course, google just gives me wine sites. Does it run on OSX now?

gauriemma
May 4, 2004, 11:35 AM
And the new slogan can be "10.4... Good buddy."

I'll go sit down now.

aftk2
May 4, 2004, 11:35 AM
A true 64 bit os would really have a performance boost with G5 across the board.....G5 Powermac, G5 PowerBook, G5 iMac, etc. I would think this would be his biggest announcment.

Really? Would it? See...I've been under the impression that the G5 is faster than the G4 for two reasons:

1. Higher clock speed
2. Higher front-side bus speed

Would a true 64-bit Finder really improve speed on a G5...all other things being equal? This is not a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious :)

g30ffr3y
May 4, 2004, 11:36 AM
have we all forgotten about "piles"
maybe thatll be the expose [wow] type enhancement...
panther had lots of wow to get users up from jaguar... itll be
a tough job to get us to spend another 129.99 without
something as "cool" as expose...

singletrack
May 4, 2004, 11:36 AM
There's really no gain in a 64bit MacOS unless you have more than 4GB of RAM and the need for it. eg. a huge database. There is no loss from using 32bit applications on a 64bit PPC processor as the instruction set is the same and it could be argued the application may end up slower as the code is more sparse.

It makes sense on Windows because the AMD 64bit ISA adds a load of new features and instructions which speed up applications and the OS in 64bit mode. That's why it's advantageous to recompile, not that 64bit is better than 32bit. 32bit applications still have to thunk though like they did when Windows went from 16bit to 32bit. There's a 32bit subsystem where all 32bit apps are ran using the old i86 ISA.

AirUncleP
May 4, 2004, 11:37 AM
Text to Speech is nice.... but.......

Speech to Text, Speech to Text, Speech to Text, Speech to Text.....

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 11:37 AM
That would be awesome as I'd love to attend a WWDC as a CS major. Too bad I'd still have to find money for airfare.

I may have an internship with MTV or VH1 next summer so maybe I can get in free then since I'm already over there.

BTW, what's with the hex code in your sig?

Be where? Aren't VH1 and MTV both in New York City and WWDC usually in San Francisco?

I assume they stream the WWDC keynote. Anyone remember last year?

idkew
May 4, 2004, 11:38 AM
What is WINE? I want to look it up but, of course, google just gives me wine sites. Does it run on OSX now?

try www.acronymfinder.com

WINE (http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=wine&Find=Find)


btw- means Wine Is Not an Emulator and WINdows Emulator according to the site.

Foocha
May 4, 2004, 11:39 AM
I doubt Tiger will be all 64 bit - this would not necessarily deliver any performance gain, and remember when Apple switched from 68k to PowerPC they still hadn't replaced all the old 68k code before they scrapped OS 9 in favour of OS X.

Top of my wish list is the ability to launch multiple instances of the Finder, so that if your Finder freezes, you can start working with another instance - each time you click on the Finder icon in the doc, it should spawn a new instance of the Finder. That way you need never be dogged by an unresponsive Finder window again.

Also, I'd like to seem them make killing an unresponsive app easier - the window should be greyed out when it becomes unresponsive, with a timing counting up, and a big "Kill" button.

I also would like to see closer integration between Safari, the Finder, iTunes and iPhoto, so that when you click on your Pictures folder, the Finder becomes an iPhoto window, and the iPhoto style window of scaleable thumbnails becomes a new view option for any folder. Likewise, when you click on ~/Music you should get an iTunes window. Finally, there should be a URL bar in the Finder, which allows you to enter any URL - ftp, http, smb, afp. A button should let you toggle between WebDav folder view and Safari-style Web browsing.

Finally, I'd like to see more differentiation between different types of shares - currently it's not easy in the finder to differentiate between AFP, SMB and WebDAV shares.

That's my dream Tiger - what's yours? ;)

singletrack
May 4, 2004, 11:45 AM
What is WINE? I want to look it up but, of course, google just gives me wine sites. Does it run on OSX now?

It allows you to run Windows applications on i86 boxes running UNIX and X.

It won't be of any use to OSX users unless there is also an i86 emulation as well. There isn't. The closest you get is Bochs and that is really, really slow. About a tenth the speed of VPC.

See http://www.winehq.com

Foocha
May 4, 2004, 11:46 AM
Mail, Address Book & iCal should be integrated into a single application.

They should sort out printing HTML e-mail from Mail - it often comes out reverse for me, for some bizzare reason!

...oh yes and how about Home on an iPod - so you can log in to a home folder on your iPod - this would be a killer app.

cnladd
May 4, 2004, 11:47 AM
I'm hoping for a metadata "BeOS-like" finder. Something that would simply put WinFS to shame.

Don't forget that BeOS wasn't the first operating system to have this type of file system. NeXTSTEP had this technology long before BeOS came out--and Apple now owns the technology and has the code to it.

As for putting WinFS to shame... well, what makes WinFS so appealing is that it's based on their upcoming SQL Server "Yukon" codebase. I'm hoping that Apple is able to do something similar--and just as powerful--to help combat that.

When thinking about this, don't just imagine being able to set metadata and perform quick, arbitrary filesystem searches. That's not where the power of this lies. Instead, imagine the applications we'll start to see when every single developer can be guaranteed that their users have a built-in database system.

Hes Nikke
May 4, 2004, 11:48 AM
At least, we know about one new feature: Text-to-Speech is known to be introduced in 10.4, isn’t it?

um... welcome to 1992?

i remember playing with Text-To-Speach with System 6, on my Mac Classic!

and every OS released since than, up to and including Mac OS X Public Beta through 10.3 Panther

eyeluvmyimac
May 4, 2004, 11:50 AM
Apple:Customization::Microsoft:Security

sooo true. its often frustrating but at least there is some degree of customization, and i jsut have to remember. with windows you get a ton of customization BUT it brings a TON of instability and insecurity :-P

i suppose i am more than willing to make this sacrifice -- though it would be nice to see Apple support some kind of theming or something...havent really thought it through enough...

btw, excuse my ignorance but what's the big deal with text to speech? Is this actually a popular feature? (why?) I mean I'll occasionally have Victoria (Vicki) read me something just to show off the capabilities of my mac, but other than that...

idkew
May 4, 2004, 11:53 AM
Mail, Address Book & iCal should be integrated into a single application.
...oh yes and how about Home on an iPod - so you can log in to a home folder on your iPod - this would be a killer app.

never! i like that they are separate. i refuse to use entourage, which is what you want.


would love home on iPod or any other external drive.

singletrack
May 4, 2004, 11:54 AM
I'd like to see a Be style finder (which I miss a lot) coupled with the Smartfolder/playlist technology they've been adding into all the iApps, more speed especially in low ram situations and for them to make their mind up as to whether the GUI should be metal or aqua. Or perhaps it's going to be more stripy this time. ;-)

Two of the missing Panther features would be nice also - 'Home on iPod' and DarwinPorts.

Safari 1.2 for Jaguar as well as 1.0 has many bugs in it still and it's a pain designing websites that work in 1.2 but break in 1.0.

It's about time they upgraded QT Broadcaster as well.

wdlove
May 4, 2004, 11:56 AM
Oh man I'm so hoping they play "Eye of the Tiger" at this WWDC

:rolleyes:

That would really be cool, I'm sos excited about the upcoming WWDC. Can't wait to see the design of Pixar for "Tiger." I plan to be at the CambridgeSide Galleria with bells on at 1pm sharp Monday June 28th!

Agathon
May 4, 2004, 11:59 AM
I'm guessing that the system requirements for Tiger will be quite stiff. No more running OS X on that old imac G3 350.

BostonPops
May 4, 2004, 12:01 PM
I'm guessing that the system requirements for Tiger will be quite stiff. No more running OS X on that old imac G3 350.

I don't know. Panther actually sped my G3 up quite a bit. Maybe Tiger will do the same (or at least be just as fast).

Doctor Q
May 4, 2004, 12:02 PM
I expect to see 129 new features for my $129, with about 10 of them useful to me personally.

My prediction continues to be that one major new feature will be a database-backed Finder, letting you attach your own attributes to any folder or file, search on any combination of attributes, and keep Favorites-style lists of these items.

BostonPops
May 4, 2004, 12:02 PM
That would really be cool, I'm sos excited about the upcoming WWDC. Can't wait to see the design of Pixar for "Tiger." I plan to be at the CambridgeSide Galleria with bells on at 1pm sharp Monday June 28th!

And I'll be at the Rockingham Mall up in beautiful Salem, New Hamster.

areyouwishing
May 4, 2004, 12:03 PM
That's my dream Tiger - what's yours? ;)
Im looking forward to Tiger, but what erks me is that you are paying for features that should be in the OS in the first place... just like with a lot of Panther features.

What I want:
1. Better thumbnails in the finder
2. Ability to cut and Paste a file into a different folder
3. Ability to change file names in the open and save dialogs
4. Ability to turn off some of the animation associated with windows.
5. NO MORE DOCK BOUNCING!!! Why does it take 3 bounces to open Photoshops splash screen, and my PC needs ZERO seconds (ie, click icon, see splash... instantaneously) What is the finder doing during this bouncing?
6. Faster, Panther is good... but could be better.
7. Better keyboard shortcut changing support.
8. Quicker hide dock and show dock animation.
9. Remove general Mail settings from "mail.app" and remove General Internet settings from safari... why do i have to go to Mail to change my default mail program to entourage... that should be in sys pref.
10. Windows like sharing, click on a folder, be able to share it, have a master list of what is shared in sys pref... none of this all or nothing business... unless you want to make a disk image of course... ugh.
11. True FTP support in the finder, be able to upload files with correct access.
12. The last thing I can think of... BETTER NETWORKING!!! Sheesh, why does my finder crash every time something isn't available... even when i am not using it, the finder shouldn't care until i click on the remote computers drive!!!

stoid
May 4, 2004, 12:03 PM
That's my dream Tiger - what's yours? ;)

:eek: :D

:cool:

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 12:04 PM
I'm guessing that the system requirements for Tiger will be quite stiff. No more running OS X on that old imac G3 350.

I disagree. I see know reason why Apple Tiger would not run on a G3. I full expect to be upgrading my G3 iMac (350MHz) to Tiger in the fall. Why makes you think otherwise?

davecuse
May 4, 2004, 12:04 PM
try www.acronymfinder.com

WINE (http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=wine&Find=Find)


btw- means WINdows Emulator according to the site.

WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator.
There are a few projects over at SourceForge working on doing this for OS X. It's pretty cool, I think DarWINE looks the most promising.

http://darwine.opendarwin.org/

rdowns
May 4, 2004, 12:06 PM
[QUOTE=billyboy]What is the longest keynote speech ever?

QUOTE]

That would be Gil Amelio, he's probably still talking.

dontmatter
May 4, 2004, 12:10 PM
A befs would be great, but does anyone remember the boot times? Nothing is more impressive than booting up inside of 30 seconds.

Wrong. Nothing is more impressive than having no idea how long it takes to boot up, b/c you never need to turn your computer off ;). Now, maybe (although it would be a stupid feature) they could make some way of installing software without rebooting, so we can brag to windows users, no, I haven't turned my computer off since installed the OS....probably won't until I install the next one, either.

Just joking, btw. They have much, much more useful things to do. Besides making it so that would be true for me, b/c I'm crashing now :(

As to actual intelligent things to say...wish apple made these announcments before they actually decided what tiger would be... then, they could use all the feedback of people here, looks liks some people have some great ideas. At least, recognized things I never thought of trying to get out of my computer.

But hey, I guess we're all big enough of nerds that these things have probably been emailed to apple anyway ;)

Analog Kid
May 4, 2004, 12:11 PM
im curious s the new features, wish they bring back the favorites in the finder
Can't you just do that by making a folder that you keep in the sidebar and command option dragging to it? That's all favorites was in the first place...

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 12:15 PM
WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator.
...

How can an acronym have itself in its definition. It just seems wrong. According to a little bit of web research, it seems it originally stood for WINdows Emulator, but later realizing it is not a "true" emulator, developers switched up the acronym.

dontmatter
May 4, 2004, 12:15 PM
I'd like to see a Be style finder (which I miss a lot) coupled with the Smartfolder/playlist technology they've been adding into all the iApps, more speed especially in low ram situations and for them to make their mind up as to whether the GUI should be metal or aqua. Or perhaps it's going to be more stripy this time. ;-)

Two of the missing Panther features would be nice also - 'Home on iPod' and DarwinPorts.

Safari 1.2 for Jaguar as well as 1.0 has many bugs in it still and it's a pain designing websites that work in 1.2 but break in 1.0.

It's about time they upgraded QT Broadcaster as well.

ick. I hate the stripes. I'd like it to be more customizable, so I don't have to pay for shapeshifter

rdowns
May 4, 2004, 12:15 PM
I've heard a rumour that Apple have done a sponsering deal with Siegfried and Roy for the use of the name Tiger, and that during the WWDC, via a live video link (probably iChat), Steve Jobs will remotely cut off Roys life support system.


iLife support system?

eSnow
May 4, 2004, 12:17 PM
Two things I hope from Tiger:
- much enhanced 64Bit support. CoreFoundation and Quartz should get a nice boost from a partial recompile.

- a resolution-independent UI AKA "Quartz G3". This would bring about a performance hit on slower machines, but would enable Apple to take the lead again in the UI department before Longhorn hits.

All in all I believe that Tiger will focus again on under-the-hood stuff after Panther was so much about UI chrome.

eSnow
May 4, 2004, 12:19 PM
How can an acronym have itself in its definition. It just seems wrong. According to a little bit of web research, it seems it originally stood for WINdows Emulator, but later realizing it is not a "true" emulator, developers switched up the acronym.

No, it's weird humor to have the acronym included in its explanation. Another example would be GNU (GNU's Not Unix).

thogs_cave
May 4, 2004, 12:20 PM
How can an acronym have itself in its definition. It just seems wrong. According to a little bit of web research, it seems it originally stood for WINdows Emulator, but later realizing it is not a "true" emulator, developers switched up the acronym.

"Gnu's Not Unix". One of my favorite TLA's.

'Nuff said.

iggyb
May 4, 2004, 12:20 PM
Mail, Address Book & iCal should be integrated into a single application.

They should sort out printing HTML e-mail from Mail - it often comes out reverse for me, for some bizzare reason!

...oh yes and how about Home on an iPod - so you can log in to a home folder on your iPod - this would be a killer app.

Cripes, I didn't even know you COULD get HTML mail from Mail. I never saw that as an option when setting up a mail account. :o

Photorun
May 4, 2004, 12:20 PM
Oh please please PLEASE return networking like it was under JagWIRE (Job's pronunciation) you know back when you could actually browse and see the other Macs on your network, not have to type in their IP addresses (which is dumb).

Hes Nikke
May 4, 2004, 12:22 PM
That would be awesome as I'd love to attend a WWDC as a CS major. Too bad I'd still have to find money for airfare.

I may have an internship with MTV or VH1 next summer so maybe I can get in free then since I'm already over there.
the funny thing is that i'm not a CS major, i just do software development mostly as a hoby (most of the higher level code in MRChat (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030608214842.shtml) came from yours truly :D)

BTW, what's with the hex code in your sig?
if i'm going to WWDC, i'll bet you can figure it out based on my personality type and mindeset. :eek:

try www.acronymfinder.com

WINE (http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=wine&Find=Find)

btw- means WINdows Emulator according to the site.
bzzz. WINE (http://www.winehq.org/) is a recursive acrynum: WINE Is Not an Emulator. basicly WINE is a reverse engeneered implimentation of the Win32s API, allowing most (but not all) windows apps to run on a non-Windows OS. (must be the same acitecture)

there is a project called DarWINE (http://darwine.opendarwin.org/) that runs on Darwin, and it will let you use apps compiled against Win32s, but they still have to be compiled for the PPC for the time being. afaik, they are working on an emulator backend to allow x86 windows apps to run on the PPC. they havn't posted any news lately (even thouth they promised it) so they could very well be working with apple to get it included with Tiger :D

Foocha
May 4, 2004, 12:23 PM
How about System Restore functionality like in XP - this is unbelievable, it actually works!!

Also, centralised Software Unistall - probably in system preferences. An easy way to unistall an app and all that came with it - libraries etc. It would need developer support, but the sooner they add it, the sooner developers can get on board with it.

itsa
May 4, 2004, 12:23 PM
Jobs will have a special guest with him on stage. None other than that Roy, or was it Sigfried, guy who almost got his head ripped off by one of his "pet" tigers. He will be demo-ing a new access feature allowing users to operate OS 10.4 when they have no face.


Sad... but real funny!

rdowns
May 4, 2004, 12:24 PM
The only bad thing about the name is that tigers are an endangered species (http://www.ecobeetle.com/tiger.htm). Of course, so are almost all of the big cats.

The Longhorn (http://www.scz.org/animals/c/lnghrn.html) on the other hand was saved by a congressional act.

I can't get over the fact that the next version of MicroSoft OS is named for something that the namesake of Apple's next OS would eat for lunch. Literally.


Not a bad thing, many consider Apple to be an endangered species.

As for Congress protecting the Longhorn- does it surprise you that they protected a producer of *************?

Savage Henry
May 4, 2004, 12:26 PM
Personally, I'm still happy riding around with my 2 Jags. Unless it comes with free gold bullion I won't be putting a tiger in my tanks.

Although I was extremely tempted with Panther, but that soon passed.

Flowbee
May 4, 2004, 12:28 PM
I expect to see 129 new features for my $129, with about 10 of them useful to me personally.

$12 per useful feature doesn't sound too bad to me.

pjkelnhofer
May 4, 2004, 12:28 PM
As for Congress protecting the Longhorn- does it surprise you that they protected a producer of *************?

Now that was funny.

I can't believe no one has mentioned it, but could Tiger Woods take Jeff Goldblum's spot in the next generation of iMac commercials?

Analog Kid
May 4, 2004, 12:33 PM
I like this:
an expanded Enterprise IT track specifically designed to help enterprise developers, system administrators and IT managers understand the core technologies that will be delivered in Tiger and fully leverage them in their environments;

I really think Apple has a platform they can push into businesses-- hopefully they'll start pushing. I know my company has started looking at XServe and XServe RAID, but Apple hasn't been particularly easy to deal with on this...

iris_failsafe
May 4, 2004, 12:33 PM
What I would like to see is a 3D Finder, not 3d buttons but as a real 3d GUI A cube where you store info on each face, multiplying the space by 6.

Also I would like to see a new device to replace the 'old' 2d mouse.

That would be the kind of revolution that happened in 1984... :rolleyes:

Foocha
May 4, 2004, 12:40 PM
How about the ability to refresh a Finder window.

It was all very cool in the old days with chatty-old AppleTalk, where there was not need to refresh the Finder window since it was always up-to-date, but things are a lot different with today's networking. A refresh button is an absolute essential!

hayesk
May 4, 2004, 12:41 PM
A befs would be great, but does anyone remember the boot times? Nothing is more impressive than booting up inside of 30 seconds.

Impressive, but how often do people boot their machines these days. Doesn't everyone just put them to sleep every day.

mustang_dvs
May 4, 2004, 12:41 PM
Commander, you have received a field promotion to the rank of CaptainObvious.

:)

So Tiger is the name

Zaty
May 4, 2004, 12:48 PM
That's good news! Let's hope Tiger will be as big an update as Panther was. What do you all think: Will Tiger debut in late 2004 or not until early 2005?

hayesk
May 4, 2004, 12:49 PM
Im looking forward to Tiger, but what erks me is that you are paying for features that should be in the OS in the first place... just like with a lot of Panther features.
5. NO MORE DOCK BOUNCING!!! Why does it take 3 bounces to open Photoshops splash screen, and my PC needs ZERO seconds (ie, click icon, see splash... instantaneously) What is the finder doing during this bouncing?


Splash screen doesn't mean the app is loaded. I have a P4 2.8GHz w/1GB of RAM. Most apps I use don't come instantly. The splash may come fairly quickly, but the time I wait for a usable document is longer. Also, some apps on Windows take several seconds and the OS gives no indication it is still loading. Even the hourglass doesn't stay while the app loads. At least on MacOS, I see the bounces so I know it's loading.

hayesk
May 4, 2004, 12:50 PM
How can an acronym have itself in its definition. It just seems wrong. According to a little bit of web research, it seems it originally stood for WINdows Emulator, but later realizing it is not a "true" emulator, developers switched up the acronym.

It's a "recursive acronym." It was done intentionally as a little joke.

JoeMacDaddy
May 4, 2004, 12:52 PM
It would be a big step for Apple to re-enter the enterprise with built in WINE support. IBM is looking at having Lotus Notes run under Linux as a WINE application. ;)

They already have X11, SAMBA, and WINE would make them an easier choice for enterprise customers who have spent a lot of money on homegrown applications that run under winderz. Many of the large entrprises are still running WinNT and have not switched to XP. The cost of migration is very steep and MS just took some of them to the cleaners with their recent licensing deal that promised free OS updates but their will not be an OS update until 2006 or 2007 from MS.

Also Apple's new buddy IBM has WinNT to Linux migration tools and best practices that could easily be modified for OSX.

But what do I know? :rolleyes:

achmafooma
May 4, 2004, 12:53 PM
Oh please please PLEASE return networking like it was under JagWIRE (Job's pronunciation) you know back when you could actually browse and see the other Macs on your network, not have to type in their IP addresses (which is dumb).
You can do this ... bring up a finder window and click on "Network" in the sidebar. One of the recent minor updates (10.3.3, I think) made it so when you mount a server this way, it shows up on the desktop like back in 10.2 (which seems to be the functionality you want).

I think it would be nice if they worked this into the Apple-K method, but eh -- it's still there, just in a different place.

dcranston
May 4, 2004, 12:53 PM
Can't you just do that by making a folder that you keep in the sidebar and command option dragging to it? That's all favorites was in the first place...

Exactly my thoughts. :) The old "Favorites" folder is even located in the same place still. Go to your user directory, open "Library", and then drag the "Favorites" folder onto the Finder toolbar or the left-hand icon bar. It'll even remember the heart icon, despite the fact that the folder itself just looks like another folder.

If you add it to the left bar, it's even available in all open/save dialogs.

Seems that the Finder's relatively customizable... not sure why people are looking for that as a feature?

areyouwishing
May 4, 2004, 12:53 PM
Impressive, but how often do people boot their machines these days. Doesn't everyone just put them to sleep every day.

I would bet most laptop users do until something goes wrong, or they need to do a software update.

Personally I wish people paid more attention to their computers and rebooted on a regular basis, especially the people with 256mb of ram or less. Even the docks memory goes up the more you use it (especially with magnification), and you never reclaim most of that memory until you reboot.

mustang_dvs
May 4, 2004, 12:54 PM
How can an acronym have itself in its definition.

Self-referencing acronyms are common throughout the *NIX world.

My favorite computer acronym is not self-referencing, but unique nonetheless: TWAIN - Technology Without An Interesting Name

Elan0204
May 4, 2004, 12:56 PM
4966 2079 6F75 2061 7265 2064 6563 6970 6865 7269 6E67 2074 6869 7320 796F 7520 6D75 7374 2062 6520 7265 616C 6C79 2062 6F72 6564 2E2E

BTW, what's with the hex code in your sig?

The translation of his signature is:

If you are deciphering this you must be really bored..

:)

Agathon
May 4, 2004, 01:00 PM
I disagree. I see know reason why Apple Tiger would not run on a G3. I full expect to be upgrading my G3 iMac (350MHz) to Tiger in the fall. Why makes you think otherwise?

My suspicion that it will probably use Quartz Extreme to a greater degree.

I read somewhere that Apple is prepping an OS centred advertising campaign. Presumably that means flashy new effects.

I run Panther on the same machine as you, and it is reasonably quick; but at some point Apple will want to give us a reason to buy new computers.

kirk26
May 4, 2004, 01:08 PM
How about System Restore functionality like in XP - this is unbelievable, it actually works!!

Also, centralised Software Unistall - probably in system preferences. An easy way to unistall an app and all that came with it - libraries etc. It would need developer support, but the sooner they add it, the sooner developers can get on board with it.


Yuk! System Restore is the first thing I turn off when configuring XP. How about this for Tiger: Can I please finally choose Copy, Cut, or Paste when I right click on a mouse. Is there a 3rd party program that does this basic neanderthal function?

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:08 PM
Top of my wish list is the ability to launch multiple instances of the Finder, so that if your Finder freezes, you can start working with another instance

that's what i'm looking forward also.

I also would like to see closer integration between Safari, the Finder, iTunes and iPhoto, so that when you click on your Pictures folder, the Finder becomes an iPhoto window, and the iPhoto style window of scaleable thumbnails becomes a new view option for any folder. Likewise, when you click on ~/Music you should get an iTunes window. Finally, there should be a URL bar in the Finder, which allows you to enter any URL - ftp, http, smb, afp. A button should let you toggle between WebDav folder view and Safari-style Web browsing.

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

i really like the idea of finder simply being an "itunes for files". if apple decides to go the microsoft route, i will simply not upgrade. panther finder is far superior to windows explorer because it's simple and doesn't try to be every ****** app you have installed in the system.

it's great that osx has specialized apps for each task and not one try-to-do-it-all-but-fail-miserably kind of app.

aftk2
May 4, 2004, 01:08 PM
Self-referencing acronyms are common throughout the *NIX world.

My favorite computer acronym is not self-referencing, but unique nonetheless: TWAIN - Technology Without An Interesting Name

My favorite...probably because it's just so uninformative is PHP, which stands for "PHP Hypertext Processor"

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:12 PM
I'm guessing that the system requirements for Tiger will be quite stiff. No more running OS X on that old imac G3 350.

i have panther running great on one of those cute things - even if it performed worse than panther, i don't think tiger will be so much heavier that it wouldn't run as nicely than jaguar.

some models were not supported with panther because they lacked some key technologies. the support drop wasn't because of cpu performance. i think the weakest link with crt imacs is the graphics card, but i'd be amazed if tiger required more than they can offer.

Juventuz
May 4, 2004, 01:12 PM
What is WINE? I want to look it up but, of course, google just gives me wine sites. Does it run on OSX now?

WINE is supposed to be an emulator that you can run Windoze on.

bertagert
May 4, 2004, 01:13 PM
I run Panther on the same machine as you, and it is reasonably quick; but at some point Apple will want to give us a reason to buy new computers.

Yeah, it was called going to OS X.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:18 PM
a resolution-independent UI.

that's on my wish list too. it'd be great if apple specified ui elements width by millimeters and not by pixels, and let the screen resolution scale the same way the printing does.

that'd enable the use of really high resolution lcd:s which are quite costly for the time being. (and i'm not talking about the displays dell uses in its laptops, but real high-end displays used in medical instruments. they talk about +600dpi in there, compared to this powerbook's about 100dpi.)

oh yeah, i'd like to have that G5 powerbook to have a 300dpi display ;)

kironin
May 4, 2004, 01:21 PM
Wrong. Nothing is more impressive than having no idea how long it takes to boot up, b/c you never need to turn your computer off ;). Now, maybe (although it would be a stupid feature) they could make some way of installing software without rebooting, so we can brag to windows users, no, I haven't turned my computer off since installed the OS....

You had ever had to administer a server, you would know that not having to reboot is far from a stupid feature.

This is one of many areas where Linux still beats OS X hands down.
Just about the only time you have to reboot a Linux box for a software update is when you actually are updating to a new OS kernel. You can easily go for more than a year without ever rebooting a Linux machine.
OS X has to be rebooted almost monthly.

Apple needs to fix this or it will remain in the bush league of the server market.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:22 PM
How about System Restore functionality.

already exists - just put in your panther cd and re-install the system.

in reality XP system restore is the worst implementation i have ever seen - it eats hard drive space faster than you could ever imagine and when something goes wrong, the restore database is already so bloated that if it actually manages to restore the system, the process takes ages.

i'd rather re-install the system and have it working fast. XP restore is full of crap. believe me, i've tried it at work where my XP workstation crashed, and at the end of the day our it personnel decided to order me a new pc.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:27 PM
Splash screen doesn't mean the app is loaded.

no it doesn't, and that also doesn't mean app isn't loaded if it just isn't visible in the task bar. after the bootup, every app you load windows keeps in memory "for faster second launch" but because they still have the 80's way of handling memory (everything above 16MB will be flushed into virtual memory thus freeing up more memory) the app still has to be loaded from the memory, only that it's mostly loaded from the swap file that is contiguous and thus faster to handle.

in osx if you try to do the same that windows does, you don't quit your apps but rather just close the window. if you then try to open an already opened app, it will be virtually instantly on. if you just have enough ram, everything is really fast.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:30 PM
It would be a big step for Apple to re-enter the enterprise with built in WINE support.

do you even know what you are talking about? wine is a subset of windows API:s that allow most windows programs to be run on linux, but when those apps are run they inherit the GUI from the windows API:s and look like windows.

i wouldn't want to see osx opening windows-like windows. virtualPC kind of apps keep things separate, which is nice, but please, no wine for osx!

lem0nayde
May 4, 2004, 01:30 PM
Simple things I'd like to see:

1.) Fix labels so they work like OS9 just coloring the folder and not that god-awful 3-d bubble nonsense. It's distracting and impossible to use in any practical way.

2.) Take Expose further. Add a button to the Finder toolbar that allows you to minimize the window into a tiny version of the same window that floats in the finder like all windows, and can be moved around and double clicked for access.

Moreover, release a new keyboard with dedicated Expose buttons (and a god-d@mned two-button mouse already Apple!!!! Helloooo!)

3.) Clean up the interface. It's time to go back to form following function. Keep the metal if you want, but make it more compact! Stop taking up so damn much room with buttons and scrollbars and finder windows etc. This could all be customizable, so each user gets what he wants.

4.) Double Decker Dock - top row of dock split in two, one side that contains any documents/folders you want - the other side contains all active documents.

Bottom row of dock split in two, one side dedicated to any applications you want dragged in there, the other side dedicated to all open applications.

Make the dock thinner, so it takes up the same amount of space. Also make this completely customizable so the users can have what they want.

5.) Man, fix that font book mess. What were you people thinking?

6.) Allow multiple work enviroments for one user via multiple Finders. I would love to have one Finder where I am working on Photoshop files. One where I am working on HTML coding another where I am surfing the web. It would take care of the clutter problem that OSX so easily suffers from. And you could use that nifty spinning cube effect to go between them.

7.) Make a new icon for application installers. I hate that weird open cardboard box icon. What's up with that lazy crap?

I'm sure there is more...but that would be a start for me and get my $129 easily.


Joe

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:32 PM
Personally I wish people paid more attention to their computers and rebooted on a regular basis.

do you say that unix server administrators are stupider computer users than regular joe using windows? unix servers are planned having 5min downtime each year, so that's what apple should also be targetting.

in work where i have to use windows, i most likely have to have that 5min downtime twice a day every day. that's not paying more attention to anything but windows design flaws.

Hemingray
May 4, 2004, 01:37 PM
Hey, maybe Apple could launch a new ad campaign using Thurl Ravenscroft's voice! :D "Mac OS X 10.4.... it's GRRRRRRRRREAT!"

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:38 PM
fix that font book mess. What were you people thinking?

there's definetely much room for improvements. not feature-wise, but the performance is awful. try putting in 1000+ fonts and your system crawls to death...

i'm not asking to kill suitcase, but i'd really like decent performance with about 500-1000 fonts.

(and i don't mind if it takes a minute to enable/disable fonts, but i don't like the idea of a thousand fonts making a powerbook cry for help...)

geerlingguy
May 4, 2004, 01:39 PM
10.4 Tigris? :rolleyes:

We're talking about a cat name... not a river name :rolleyes:

Veldek
May 4, 2004, 01:40 PM
Ok, I said Text-to-Speech is going to be introduced, but it was a screen reader. I almost made it, no need to mock at me ;)

Rubaiyat
May 4, 2004, 01:41 PM
Oh dear. I guess it's time to start thinking about paying my annual OS X subscription along with my .mac subscription. I've tried to hold off paying the relatively recent iLife subscription but iPhoto really is beginning to creak and needs replacement. Add all of this to Apple hardware exclusivity tax (thankfully a one off payment) and I start wondering if the mac experience is really offering me good value for money.

Yes I know, nobody's forcing me to upgrade my OS but for how long will Apple provide Panther-compatible upgrades of Safari after Tiger is released?

bertagert
May 4, 2004, 01:43 PM
...in osx if you try to do the same that windows does, you don't quit your apps but rather just close the window. if you then try to open an already opened app, it will be virtually instantly on. if you just have enough ram, everything is really fast.

This is something Apple should address some how. When I first switched, this was one of my fears (that windows seemed snappier). New windows machines launch programs rather quickly. It is perceived to the end user that windows is a faster machine. Once you learn how OS X works, then you realize that both machines are compariable in speed (for the most part anyway). If I didn't do as much studying on as I did, I'd still have a windows box. The GUI seems much more snappy than OS X.

coolsoldier
May 4, 2004, 01:48 PM
Yes I know, nobody's forcing me to upgrade my OS but for how long will Apple provide Panther-compatible upgrades of Safari after Tiger is released?

Apple will most likely never provide Safari updates for anything but the latest system. This is because WebKit, which safari uses to download and display web pages is part of the system -- Safari isn't a "standalone" browser. However, there's nothing keeping you from using something like Camino (which is basically functionally identical to Safari, with the added bonus of handling secure sites properly) on any system -- It still runs on systems back to 10.1.

Apple software is not the only software there is, and third-party equivalents of the apple apps, as well as older versions, continue to work just fine on older systems.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 01:52 PM
Apple will most likely never provide Safari updates for anything but the latest system. This is because WebKit, which safari uses to download and display web pages is part of the system.

it really depends of how much they need to change. i understand why they left jaguar users behind, but in the future the changes to webkit must become smaller, and therefore they can be updated easier.

so if panther users will not get the latest safari after tiger release, most likely tiger users will get the latest after the next big cat.

JGowan
May 4, 2004, 01:52 PM
WHAT'S IN A NAME?
TIGER & LION don't sound as exotic as Jaguar or Panther, but they're bigger cats so we're just going to have to get used to the idea. I'm curious at what other types of cats we're going to see in the evolution of OS X. At 10.4 we're at TIGER. Will there be a different cat name for every increment until OS 11? How many cats are there bigger than a TIGER?

UPGRADING TO TIGER
"Will I have to pay for another update?"

First of all, this won't be an update, it's an UPGRADE. Paying for a new release of an OS is always a sore spot for some users. People want to experience "a whole new Mac", but they don't want to pay for it. Grow up. Some people are so selfish that they would rather Apple only updated their OS every few years so THEY wouldn't have to pay more money. Never mind that Apple wants to generate revenue AND advance technology. Never mind that millions of others WANT the upgrades. They're the same people who buys a new computer and then gets pissed that a NEWER MODEL comes out four months later, de-throning them of having the "top of the line". How rediculous. How selfish.

Secondly, it's been said a million times before, but if you don't want to pay for the new features, stick with OS9 or X or X.1 or X.2 or X.3 -- whatever you have! The programs you're working with the day before a new release will still work the day after a new release. If you can't afford $129 or if you'd rather keep your money, be happy with whatever operating system you find yourself running. Just quit the b!tching about money. No one wants to hear you piss & moan about having to pay for another upgrade. Get used to the fact that Apple is going to release a new OS upgrade every September.

THE SEX of "X"
I know what's throwing some people in relation to "having to pay for another update". They're looking at the numbers. "10.2 is just a little bigger than 10.1, so why do I have to pay". That goes for the apparently "small" one/tenth incremental jumps that cost $129. Just looking at the numbers, it doesn't make sense. Most people are thinking "I should only have to pay when the numbers go up a whole number. 8 to 9 or 9 to 10,etc.

What people are not looking at is the SEXY FACTOR of 10. Roman Numberal 10 = X.... wow... pretty sexy. OS X ... that isn't coming around again. So while they are only going up technically 1/10 of number (and charging you for it), it's really only to keep the number "X" alive. Think about this: if Apple was releasing OS 11 in September, you wouldn't think twice about plunking down the green. It's because "you're only going from 10.3 to 10.4" that you feel ripped. It doesn't matter than the features are going to be really cool, innovative, benefitial and numerous, you still want your whole number. Just realize, Apple wants to keep the SEX of "X".

wdlove
May 4, 2004, 02:01 PM
:eek: :D

:cool:

I love your sentiment stoid! ;) It's perrrrr..fect! Anxious to see what Pixar has though. It seems that we are going to have a good laugh over this release. Maybe it will just help with marketing, something very catchy. This is something that sticks in the head and plays over & over! :D

Wonder Boy
May 4, 2004, 02:02 PM
the only way im getting tiger is in a new g5 PM.

network23
May 4, 2004, 02:02 PM
Let's just keep these upgrades coming! Did anyone notice that when Panther came out, 2-3 months later Microsoft announced that Longhorn would be delayed (again) until 2005? Every time Apple releases a new OS X, Microsoft just has to spend that much more time playing "catch up" so Longhorn won't be an embarrassment! If we keep this up, Longhorn might never be released!

Vonnie
May 4, 2004, 02:06 PM
I would like to see cross-platform development support for desktop applications. The way I see it, they have a few options.
- Java-Swing/SWT applications, provided they can get it to get ultra-fast. I shouldn't see the difference between a java application starting up, or a native one.
- Make Cocoa opensource, and port it too windows and linux. (maybe sync the codebase with GNUStep).
- Python/Ruby with wxWidgets, it would be nice if it had support in xcode and interface builder.
- .NET support. dotNET framework is a pretty good technology. Apple would have the mono project to start from.

DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
laugh with monkey boy all you want, but developers are pretty much the most important users of a platform :-)

Iroganai
May 4, 2004, 02:07 PM
5. NO MORE DOCK BOUNCING!!! Why does it take 3 bounces to open Photoshops splash screen, and my PC needs ZERO seconds (ie, click icon, see splash... instantaneously) What is the finder doing during this bouncing?

Hey, the system is loading the program WHILE the bouncing !

This is something Apple should address some how. When I first switched, this was one of my fears (that windows seemed snappier). New windows machines launch programs rather quickly. It is perceived to the end user that windows is a faster machine. Once you learn how OS X works, then you realize that both machines are compariable in speed (for the most part anyway). If I didn't do as much studying on as I did, I'd still have a windows box. The GUI seems much more snappy than OS X.
I had the same kind of trouble when I switched...
In the Windows (especially pre XP,2000) world,
I couldn't open many apps reliably, so I made a habit of quitting apps often.
In OS X however, you can't quit an app just by closing the window :eek:
I at first cmd-Q'ed every time and clicked the dock icon to open every time,
and it was somewhat slow.

But fortunately I learned OS X is so stable :D
I need not quit apps ! Just closing or hiding is ok,
and then apps comes to front almost immediately
when you clicked the dock icon !

Foocha
May 4, 2004, 02:08 PM
http://demo.taglab.com/finder_tiger.jpg
... in my dreams ;)

aswitcher
May 4, 2004, 02:10 PM
So looks like Apple are seeking a revenue stream of 1 OS update a year, looking at IIRC about 10 million machines to upgrade p.a...

Guess its not a huge price to pay... $15 AUD a month...

But then an iLife update in January... ~$10 a month...

Mmm.

areyouwishing
May 4, 2004, 02:17 PM
do you say that unix server administrators are stupider computer users than regular joe using windows? unix servers are planned having 5min downtime each year, so that's what apple should also be targetting.

I was not talking about servers, i guess i should have been more specific.

Apple does a poor job at the 5min/yr downtime in the server market, I agree that they should work on that.

latergator116
May 4, 2004, 02:17 PM
Only if you want to upgrade. If you are happy your Panther you don't have to upgrade. I know plenty of people who are still using Jaguar, and I will probably wait a couple of years before upgrading (Ocelot?, Cougar?).
Yes, but apple quickly makes the "old" OS obsolete, thus it isn't very compatible

Juventuz
May 4, 2004, 02:18 PM
Foocha: That would be an awesome viewer for Finder.

I'd also like to see them show the first frame of a video file in the preview window.

Multimedia
May 4, 2004, 02:18 PM
So when is Tiger going to be out? (that name is pretty bland, after Panther :rolleyes: )

Btw, the cost of attending this WWDC is $1595!!! Who can afford to attend at those prices? Has anybody attended any of these? Who paid?
Keynote Is Free For VIPs and Press. That's where Steve pulls a rabbit out of his hat. ; ^ )

:p

There are scholarships for students and the rest mostly are paid for by the companies they work for.

Tiger should be out this Fall like every other OS for the past 4 years.

jackieonasses
May 4, 2004, 02:26 PM
Foocha: That would be an awesome viewer for Finder.

I'd also like to see them show the first frame of a video file in the preview window.

half the time that would be a black screen........

nagromme
May 4, 2004, 02:32 PM
Not that there's been as much whining as usual so far, thankfully :) I'm impressed.

Since OS X 10.0 was released in early 2001, there have only been TWO paid upgrades of OS X ever: 10.2 and 10.3 (remember: 10.1 was free). The time before these paid versions was 17 months and 14 months. So if anyone complains about having a paid upgrade every year, they are very mistaken.

People often overlook four things when they complain that Apple advances Mac OS X too quickly:

First, you don't HAVE to upgrade just because you can. Your current apps will keep right on running, AND most new apps will run on your slightly-older OS too. Some new ones won't, but app vendors make clear when that's the case. You can then stick with the older OS/app until the timing is better for you. You won't be left out of security updates, either, if you're afraid that OS X may get its first virus. Apple updates older OS versions for a time. (10.0 got a free update to 10.1, and 10.2 is still receiving updates even with 10.3 long since out.)

Second, regarding cost, $129 is NOT "full" price, it's an upgrade to whatever version of Mac OS (8? 9? X?) you already own. Some expect OS X should ship at two different prices--like a new version of Photoshop or Office does--but that would only make sense if there were buyers who did not ALREADY own Mac OS. Apple has never sold Macs without Mac OS, so there IS no "standalone"/"first purchase" price for OS X. Everyone's first Mac OS purchase is simply bundled WITH a Mac. Apple could still offer a range of different prices depending on HOW old your current OS is--but many app vendors don't do that either: it complicates the upgrade for both buyers and retailers. Buyers would then need to use a serial number scheme or dig up an old DVD or otherwise electronically prover ownership, while retailers would have to stock at least 2 different versions. I'm glad Apple has kept it simple rather than charging more to OS 8/9 owners or something like that. (Sure, I'd love every upgrade of every software to be $5... or free... but developing them isn't free.)

Third, regarding version numbers, 10.3 (etc.) is NOT just a "point release" as some people like to pretend. Many companies use a decimal point for minor updates, and change the main version number for every major update. But Apple doesn't anymore. They have a known brand (and logo) for Mac OS X, and they want to stick with that for now. So they put the major number after the 10. 10.3 is like Mac OS 13. One look at the feature list of Panther will make clear that it is no minor release. The number is not what's important. You tend to get a LOT for your money with an OS X upgrade. (If you choose to buy.)

Fourth, regarding timing, OS X was a new OS, and thus initially it was subject to faster improvement and more frequent upgrades. That's very desirable in a new product! If fast change is hard on certain businesses, that inevitably made OS X less attractive in the early years to that kind of customer. There's no way around the fact that an enterprise customer may not wish to be an early adopter. But the update rate slows down over time--and that's clearly been the case as OS X has grown from a promising start into the mature OS we now have:

Mac OS X Public Beta: 9/13/2000
$30 (free shipping, like all versions), all credited towards purchase of 10.0.

...6 months...

10.0 Cheeta: 3/24/2001
$129 upgrade from all earlier versions of Mac OS: 8, 9, or X. ($99 for Public Beta users.) Or $69 for students/teachers/staff.

...6 months...

10.1 Puma: 9/29/2001
Free to 10.0 owners ($129 or $69 upgrade from all pre-X versions, same as 10.0 was). Given away at CompUSA and other stores. Mac users who have been with OS X from the beta days have still only paid for it once.

...11 months...

10.2 Jaguar: 8/24/2002
$129 or $69 upgrade from all earlier versions of Mac OS. The first of two paid upgrades. But available for free to educators.

...14 months...

10.3 Panther: 10/24/2003
$129 or $69 upgrade from all earlier versions of Mac OS. The second of two paid upgrades. (Or the first ever, for educators.)

...more than 14 months?...

10.4 Tiger: 2004 or 2005?

So the upgrade cycle, in months, has been: 6 - 6 - 11 - 14 (with two free versions early on). Apple's rate of change has naturally slowed as the OS has matured.

Panther took 3 months longer than Jaguar. What if 10.4/Tiger takes 3 months longer (17 months) than Panther? 10.4 would then be released in late March 2005. Or if development STOPS slowing down and 10.4 only takes 14 months again... that's still late December 2004. So even if 10.4 takes the same or slightly less time than 10.3, Apple might still wait a few days and release it in 2005. That would please the vocal people who think Apple should move slower: there would be NO paid releases in 2004.

And remember that earliest reports and developer previews of a new Mac OS often come out FAR ahead of the shipping product. So I think early 2005 is very likely for 10.4.

If Tiger makes it in 2004, though, I'll be pleased. I won't HAVE to buy it if I'd rather wait a few months or even skip it and wait for 10.5. (With most products I buy every other upgrade and cut my costs in half.) But if it's like Jaguar and Panther were, it will be well worth my money.

areyouwishing
May 4, 2004, 02:33 PM
Hey, the system is loading the program WHILE the bouncing !K, Im going to explain it with a timeline so you know what i am talking about... i don't know if you use photoshop on both platforms, but im going to assume that you don't since you don't know what i am talking about.

1ghz G4 Mac Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

1ghz P3 WinXP Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

In this little timeline you can see that on a PC you go straight from click to splash with no IN-BETWEEN LOADING like on a mac... also known as bounces.

Shrike_Priest
May 4, 2004, 02:34 PM
the preview-system could use a little work, for instance, letting you define the apps to do the previewing, and not have QT trying with every single file.

If I'm in column view, and highlight a DivX file, QT will try to show it, and I either get a message saying it can't, or a black/white screen with no audio, or just audio etc.

If I could just say: VLC should handle all my .avi-previews, thank-you-very-much I would be very pleased.

idkew
May 4, 2004, 02:35 PM
i'm getting deja vu nagromme

ZildjianKX
May 4, 2004, 02:36 PM
Mac users CANNOT complain that Windows OSes costs more than OS X... especially when OS X now has a semi-mandatory upgrade every 18 months.

Am I the only one who said out loud, "Jeez, already?" when they saw the news?

LoonyPandora
May 4, 2004, 02:36 PM
How about this for Tiger: Can I please finally choose Copy, Cut, or Paste when I right click on a mouse. Is there a 3rd party program that does this basic neanderthal function?

Works in my Finder - OSX 10.3.3, I have copy and paste in the contextual menu :-/

nsb3000
May 4, 2004, 02:39 PM
Impressive, but how often do people boot their machines these days. Doesn't everyone just put them to sleep every day.

I do, and everyone should, but most people don't. I work in IT, and I say with a lot of confidence that most people think shutting down their computer at the end of the day is the proper thing to do.

nagromme
May 4, 2004, 02:40 PM
i'm getting deja vu nagromme

I've been adapting that post as needed for some time :)

semi-mandatory upgrade every 18 months

Could be worse than a semi-mandatory major feature upgrade twice in three years :)

Multimedia
May 4, 2004, 02:40 PM
Thank You For The History Lesson nagromme. I did not mean to overstate the costs nor trivialize the intervals between updates. That was an excellent overview of OS X's history and costs. I agree that next year would be an appropriate time for Tiger to get into my Macs' Tanks.

jackieonasses
May 4, 2004, 02:42 PM
K, Im going to explain it with a timeline so you know what i am talking about... i don't know if you use photoshop on both platforms, but im going to assume that you don't since you don't know what i am talking about.

1ghz G4 Mac Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

1ghz P3 WinXP Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

In this little timeline you can see that on a PC you go straight from click to splash with no IN-BETWEEN LOADING like on a mac... also known as bounces.

but it loads that individual program during the bounce...the splash screen doesnt mean much....

mainstreetmark
May 4, 2004, 02:44 PM
It's a "recursive acronym." It was done intentionally as a little joke.

PHP stands for "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor". A more common example of a recursive acronym.

Koodauw
May 4, 2004, 02:45 PM
Well I am pumped. I will prob have to pre-order the day it comes out. I hope the new features can speed up the OS, although it is pretty good right now. I love yearly updates, they make this so fun. Its $100 dollars I will gladly pay. Woot! I am excited.

On a sadder and unrealted note. DHL has lost my iPod Mini I believe. It has taken 3 days for an overnight shipment. All they can tell me is that it left OH on 4/29 and is "In Transit." Ugh. Even if they do repay me for it, it is a 6 week wait at least to get the new one. :(

*goes and cries*

dstorey
May 4, 2004, 02:48 PM
I would like to see cross-platform development support for desktop applications. The way I see it, they have a few options.
- Java-Swing/SWT applications, provided they can get it to get ultra-fast. I shouldn't see the difference between a java application starting up, or a native one.
- Make Cocoa opensource, and port it too windows and linux. (maybe sync the codebase with GNUStep).


I don't thinl Apple will open Cocoa... Cocoa is an extension of the OpenStep reference platform API developed by NeXT with Sun (I don'y know if Sun did anything except maybe help fund it), With OS X being at its core an extension and improvment of OPENSTEP (NeXT's implimentation of OpenStep) with things added like Carbon etc to make it more mac like and compatible. But Apple killed OpenStep when they created cocoa, so it will be a suprise, all be it a nice one, if they bring it back. GNUStep is promising however if they can keep up.

Java is pretty good on OS X but could be improved. Fast would always be better...start times are pretty bad. Aqua support is pretty good but lacks many aqua wisgets like draws, search fields etc, and as Swing is based more on what widgets windows has then this will remain a problem. It would be nice if apple made the save dialogs use the native cocoa one and the sheets, which come out the menu bar. Did Apple ever support loading the Java VM at boot time to create faster start times? Faster releases of the new java versions would be nice. Java 1.5 Tiger should be out by the time OS X Tiger comes out at least. Oh Swing support in Interface Builder would be nice. Does code completion work in XCode? I can only get it to complete my methods and not the Java API ones.

The ruby support would be nice. There are Ruby bindings to Cocoa, and GNStep (RIGS) and i belive it works better than Java, but this doesn't help Cross platform unless GNUStep really takes off and chooses to follow Cocoa and not just the OpenStep spec. I dont see GNUStep coming with windows too, though would be a nice choice for a desktop linux, such as IBM's rumured Blue Linux. If apple and ibm joined in this, it would be great in my opinion. Any cross platform ruby look will probably have same problems as Swing in that ir wont look or act like a real os x app.

.NET has similar problems to GNUStep in that it is always playing catch up, and has questionable legalities. Plus do we really want to give developers the excuse to stop the effort of producing cocoa apps and just develop .Net apps, which by default will work better and more native like on windows.

Of all the choices, The reintroduction of a full cocoa compatible OpenStep api seems to be the best option, for os x users at least, but if it will ever see the light of day is questionable.

CmdrLaForge
May 4, 2004, 02:50 PM
Commander, you have received a field promotion to the rank of CaptainObvious.

:)

It was a rumor !

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 02:55 PM
"Will I have to pay for another update?"

First of all, this won't be an update, it's an UPGRADE. Paying for a new release of an OS is always a sore spot for some users. People want to experience "a whole new Mac", but they don't want to pay for it.

tiger will be the fourth non-beta osx version, and to get more perspective, classic mac os' last four versions were system6 thru os9. those four versions last ten years whereas four osx versions have seen the light in only a few years. so it's totally ok for people to grumble.

do i remember correctly, were the systemX upgrades free? did apple put a price tag for os8 for the first time, or was the system7 also a paid upgrade? i'm almost certain everything before sys7 was free (meaning: paid for within the hardware purchase).

rog
May 4, 2004, 02:56 PM
Jobs will have a special guest with him on stage. None other than that Roy, or was it Sigfried, guy who almost got his head ripped off by one of his "pet" tigers. He will be demo-ing a new access feature allowing users to operate OS 10.4 when they have no face.

OMG that was hilarious! Maybe they can also build a feature that detects if you've used a windoze machine recently and if so, it mauls all your files and sends your email address to spammers.

Iroganai
May 4, 2004, 02:57 PM
5. NO MORE DOCK BOUNCING!!! Why does it take 3 bounces to open Photoshops splash screen, and my PC needs ZERO seconds (ie, click icon, see splash... instantaneously) What is the finder doing during this bouncing?



In this little timeline you can see that on a PC you go straight from click to splash with no IN-BETWEEN LOADING like on a mac... also known as bounces.

now I understood... you're saying to quicken up the loading of apps.
I thought you claimed to remove the bounce animation...
There's a haxie that does it, but I'm not sure about its raison-d'-etre.
Bouncing itself is not much workload to Mac these days.

As I just wrote in another post,
I launch most of apps at login,
so I'm not so much concerned about launch time, though...
I'm not using Photoshop, just Acrobat and
other rather lightweight programs.
Maybe Photoshop is a little too big to have always in (virtual) memory.
Then I understand launch time becomes crucial to you.

Doctor Q
May 4, 2004, 03:00 PM
It was a rumor !Don't worry. Some of us understood that you were pointing out that the rumored name was now a confirmed name.

Two fixes I'm hoping to see in Tiger:

* In Panther, they finally made it possible to select and copy text in Preview of a PDF, but it doesn't copy the linebreaks to the clipboard properly. I can't believe they blew this so badly. Fix it.

* Resizing of all windows from all sides and corners. Yes, like MS Windows. Apple's GUI has always done it wrong. Windows got it right. Case closed. Fix it.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 03:01 PM
I was not talking about servers, i guess i should have been more specific.

that doesn't matter because you were talking about osx which is a unix variant. software-wise every osx out here is a unix server, so the 5min/yr target is feasible for apple.

now if we really talk about servers, we need to discuss hardware. ibm power5 anyone? :)

Multimedia
May 4, 2004, 03:06 PM
now I understood... you're saying to quicken up the loading of apps.
I thought you claimed to remove the bounce animation...
There's a haxie that does it, but I'm not sure about its raison-d'-etre.

Bouncing can be turned off in the Dock System Preference. Simply UNCHECK "Animate Opening Applications". Turning this "feature" off will accelerate the launch times of everything.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 03:08 PM
remember: 10.1 was free.

no, it wasn't. you had to have 10.0 purchased to get 10.1, if my memory serves me right. those who were eager to try out pre-mature operating systems were able to purchase the system bit by bit - wasn't the beta about 30 dollars and the 10.0 whole 129 dollars with a 30 dollar discount for beta customers making it a 99 dollar upgrade for them? and 10.1 being free for 10.0 customers who got sub-par system that didn't offer enough functionality?

jaguar was the first mature osx version. everything before that need to be considered as one package. to prove my point, you can calculate the time it has taken to get from public beta to 10.1, and from 10.1 to jaguar, and from jag to panther... you get the point ;)

no more free os upgrades. it was system7 that put an end to it, again, if i remember correctly.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 03:13 PM
the splash screen doesnt mean much.

you're right. the splash screen is just a lame excuse for the time it takes for an app to load itself. we really need much faster hard drives...

i myself will celebrate the day we have no moving parts in computers and no need for power cord ;)

applekid
May 4, 2004, 03:16 PM
Show us some cool technology, give us another big speed boost, give us a low upgrade price, and I'm in.

stoid
May 4, 2004, 03:16 PM
Mac users CANNOT complain that Windows OSes costs more than OS X... especially when OS X now has a semi-mandatory upgrade every 18 months.

Am I the only one who said out loud, "Jeez, already?" when they saw the news?
:mad:
<rant>
What's WITH you people?!? Apple doesn't come out with new products, you bitch and moan. Apple DOES come out with new products, you bitch and moan. If they are really all that bad, go use Windows, ****, and burn in hell with the rest of the poor Redmond-ite saps. Otherwise, shape up, realize that Apple is kicking the hell out of everyone software-wise and accept that having the best technology costs a premium.
</rant>

Apologies to those I have offended, and the above statements are not directed at any individual, not even you Zildjian, I just couldn't take it anymore :o

Larshart
May 4, 2004, 03:17 PM
There is the saying "A Tiger never changes it's Stripes". Could this be an example of Jobs sense of humor and irony, foreshadowing of either greater Windows(or Linux) interoperability?

Trowaman
May 4, 2004, 03:20 PM
no, it wasn't. you had to have 10.0 purchased to get 10.1, if my memory serves me right. those who were eager to try out pre-mature operating systems were able to purchase the system bit by bit - wasn't the beta about 30 dollars and the 10.0 whole 129 dollars with a 30 dollar discount for beta customers making it a 99 dollar upgrade for them? and 10.1 being free for 10.0 customers who got sub-par system that didn't offer enough functionality?

jaguar was the first mature osx version. everything before that need to be considered as one package. to prove my point, you can calculate the time it has taken to get from public beta to 10.1, and from 10.1 to jaguar, and from jag to panther... you get the point ;)

no more free os upgrades. it was system7 that put an end to it, again, if i remember correctly.

10.0: The birth of of OS X, very basic.
10.1: Fixing some bugs in the system, works smoother.
10.2: IT WORKS RIGHT! Also the addition of the digital lifestyle apps (Mail, Sherlock 3, iCal, first Safari, iSync)
10.3: Refining a working animal. Making it all work together.
10.4: This is either going to be more refining of a working animal or they need to find something BIG and blow us away.

It is my personal thoughts that Panther is nothing more than Jaguar with a few new features to it and not worth the upgrade cost while Jaguar was, very easily. 10.4 needs something big to really make it seem worthwhile. I don't want a facelift of the working OS, I want it to have something new and exciting.

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 03:22 PM
Show us some cool technology, give us another big speed boost, give us a low upgrade price, and I'm in.

give us even hierarchical playlists / photo albums and i'd buy it in a heartbeat ;) no need to worry, apple tends to offer value for the price it asks for its products, unlike other brands. it is common in pc industry to follow the price everyone asks and offer everything everyone has already thought of, but apple... sheesh, how can they do it? apple tends to ask money for something others will need three years to copy.

and i'm not talking about moto cpu performance here ;) for a hardware company apple creates pretty damn good software...

bousozoku
May 4, 2004, 03:22 PM
K, Im going to explain it with a timeline so you know what i am talking about... i don't know if you use photoshop on both platforms, but im going to assume that you don't since you don't know what i am talking about.

1ghz G4 Mac Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

1ghz P3 WinXP Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

In this little timeline you can see that on a PC you go straight from click to splash with no IN-BETWEEN LOADING like on a mac... also known as bounces.

Go into Dock Preferences and turn off "Animate opening applications" and there aren't any more bounces. :)

Parikh1234
May 4, 2004, 03:23 PM
I will order my copy immediately after the Apple Store reopens after WWDC. Maybe even a new G5, iPod, and Display. Even though i havent had mine 6 months yet.

You think you could get me one of those too while your at it ;)

JFreak
May 4, 2004, 03:24 PM
It is my personal thoughts that Panther is nothing more than Jaguar with a few new features to it and not worth the upgrade cost while Jaguar was, very easily.

opinions are free ;) i personally haven't paid for jaguar anymore than panther, because they came bundled with the computers i have purchased. i don't mind apple releasing major revisions to osx every year, it only adds value to the hardware sales they rely their business on. remember, apple is a hardware company...

Parikh1234
May 4, 2004, 03:27 PM
Go into Dock Preferences and turn off "Animate opening applications" and there aren't any more bounces. :)

I actually like the bouncing, sometimes on windows i think i double clicked something and i wait for like 2 mins and im like wait, i missed the second click. At least this way i know its opening.

stoid
May 4, 2004, 03:31 PM
I'm using Panther, but I don't think that I would have upgraded except that I got it for $20 since it came out right after I bought my PowerBook last Fall.

hornandsaxguy
May 4, 2004, 03:32 PM
Ummm...how about 10.4 finally fixing the dreadfully slow loading of Help. Ridiculous.

And on top of that, Steve should buy LaunchBar and add it in. Best interface enhancement ever. Period.

Ted

agentmouthwash
May 4, 2004, 03:35 PM
My guess is that is will have simple improvements for consumers like:
Themes, faster bootup, hopefully hypercard, maybe a simple recording app, virtual desktops.

also Apple wants to grab the Linux crowd - so maybe they will add more support for linux based stuff.

guifa
May 4, 2004, 03:37 PM
half the time that would be a black screen........
Videos can have a "poster frame" that can be set for this ... granted it's not used with all video files, but QT does support it.

Iroganai
May 4, 2004, 03:40 PM
thanks for pointing me to the Dock preferences :)
I tried and found the black triangle blinks instead,
with the same interval as the bounce :cool:

but I think the bounce/blink is not the cause for the slow launch.
just check with the Activity Monitor during apps loading.
Most of the cpu time etc. are spent by the Apps,
not the Dock displaying bounce.
Eliminating bouncing animation won't do much good for launch time ;)

These eye-candies (bouncing, drop shadows, transparent menus)
do not cost much with the powerful Quartz Extreme...

Colonel Panik
May 4, 2004, 03:43 PM
That's my dream Tiger - what's yours? ;)

I'd like the bugs and stupid behaviours cleaned up. For example, when an app is looking for a remote server that's gone offline, firstly the app gives the spinning wheel, and secondly the Finder then goes and does a bender, making a force quit necessary. Sometimes it gives the double dialog 'a remote server is unavailable. Do you want to disconnect', but if it doesn't, then a force quit is necessary. And that sucks.

Another thing I'd like is a 'refresh' contextual option in the finder, because windows don't automatically update, only when queried.

But my major request is that they make iChat available for Windows, and able to connect to all the different clients. Being able to iSight with a Windows MSN Messenger user would be cool. Perhaps they could integrate iChat into the OS somehow, coming up with some amazing new ways of using it.

Apart from that, I think that Panther is one cool OS.

wizard
May 4, 2004, 03:44 PM
What is more interesting is the cube computers at the bottom of the referenced page. Indications of things to come?

Dave


It may not be stated in the press release, but the WWDC page (http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/) states it explicitly:

BrianKonarsMac
May 4, 2004, 03:44 PM
Mabey I am the only one to think of this yet, but will this be a full 64 bit OS? Not a 32 bit with 64 bit extensions. A true 64 bit os would really have a performance boost with G5 across the board.....G5 Powermac, G5 PowerBook, G5 iMac, etc. I would think this would be his biggest announcment.

Yes I know that iTunes and every other program would have to recompled, but isn't that what xCode is for? I am just ready for those G5 powerbooks. The last update was okay. A 9700 in a powerbook is awsome, and in reality a 1.5 G4 isn't shabby. They run on very little power. But I cannot make myself spend 2500 bucks on a machine that has a slower bus speed that my P3 from several years ago.

sorry, longhorn may be out before OS X is a true 64 bit os. look how long it took to completely drop OS 9 support, and people are still using OS 9. Imagine the user ratio of G4s to G5...until it's anywhere near the ratio of OS 9 to OS X users...no 64 bit OS.

What is more interesting is the cube computers at the bottom of the referenced page. Indications of things to come?

Dave

those would be the prize boxes...unfortunately not new G5 cubes :/.

manu chao
May 4, 2004, 03:45 PM
6.) Allow multiple work enviroments for one user via multiple Finders. I would love to have one Finder where I am working on Photoshop files. One where I am working on HTML coding another where I am surfing the web. It would take care of the clutter problem that OSX so easily suffers from. And you could use that nifty spinning cube effect to go between them.
Joe

You can have something similar already, e.g. in Photoshop hit crtl-cmd-H (in most apps it is simply cmd-H) and click on the webbrowser icon in the dock, optionally you could option-click the webbrowser icon.

Hiding an app is like switching to another work environment.

SiliconAddict
May 4, 2004, 03:46 PM
already exists - just put in your panther cd and re-install the system.

in reality XP system restore is the worst implementation i have ever seen - it eats hard drive space faster than you could ever imagine and when something goes wrong, the restore database is already so bloated that if it actually manages to restore the system, the process takes ages.

i'd rather re-install the system and have it working fast. XP restore is full of crap. believe me, i've tried it at work where my XP workstation crashed, and at the end of the day our it personnel decided to order me a new pc.

What are you talking about?!?! The process is only as long as how many files it has to restore. If your stupid and are monitoring ALL of your partitions and disks then yah its going to take a while and as for bloat you can specify as small or as much as the disk you want system restore to take up. Of course its going to bloat if you set it to 1.2GB but if you set it to something like 2% and 400MB its a simple to restore. I've had to use system restore only once and it saved me from having to rebuild the system from scratch. It was a 3 year old app that felt it had to overwrite non system protected system files. A sysrestore took 5 minutes to complete vs. 2 hours to rebuild my system. And you are compairing this to MS's system restore. Do you have ANY doubt that Apple couldn't do it better??!

rog
May 4, 2004, 03:48 PM
A few things I would like in Tiger:

Compatability with my Color Classic and MacTV.

Be able to use my drawing slate that worked fine with my Commodore 64. I've never understood why the Mac OS doesn't support this. It would also be nice if it supported my cassette tape drive.

Greyscale interface. Macs had a much larger share of the market when the OS only supported greyscale.

MacWeb as the default browser. This thing was superfast when it came out a few years back. Apple should buy the rights to it and get rid of Safari.

I agree it should come with Wine, but they might run into problems shipping to children and some states. Still the benefits of setting up an upgraded OS while drunk outweigh the drawbacks.

Bring back Clarus the ****ow.

A feature that detects when people refer to desktop background pictures as their "screensaver" and promptly delivers an electric shock through the mouse .

Support for the PC Jr. chicklet keyboard. It's always been my favorite and I miss using it.

I would prefer it be called "Kitten" or at least allow for an optional login which features lots of pictures of cute little kittens throughout the GUI and major apps. It should also randomly make meow noises in the background. That would be so darling.

More advertising integrated into the OS to lower the price. I'd gladly save a couple dollars on the price if all I had to do was watch comercials for Charmin and such before being allowed to do things like delete files or send an email.

Bring back push technology. I don't know what ever happened to Pointcast, but we really need things like updated sports scores, news,weather, and a stock ticker running on the desktop at all times and using lots of bandwidth. It just makes life better.

I think Apple should consider making Tiger free intially, but pay as you go to use it. M$ is moving towards subscriptions but this would go one better. Apple could charge a few cents for things like creating a folder or opening a window. It would be great if it could ask you to confirm that you want to do each one of these things, and then charge it to your credit card or better yet, deduct it directly from your bank account. It would also help people be more efficient in their computing, i.e. do you really need to empty your trash 5 times today? If you were charged each time, you would dare waste the extra time and money and would ultimately be more productive.

These are just a few of the things I expect Tiger to have. If not, I'm going to through all my macs out the window and tell all my friends, meaning my mentally impaired 3rd cousin and my grandmother, never to buy a mac!

xtekdiver
May 4, 2004, 03:49 PM
Jobs will have a special guest with him on stage. None other than that Roy, or was it Sigfried, guy who almost got his head ripped off by one of his "pet" tigers. He will be demo-ing a new access feature allowing users to operate OS 10.4 when they have no face.

Oh, a demo of Tiger on a new headless G5 Mac by Sigfried and Roy is too rich! LOL!!!

Colonel Panik
May 4, 2004, 03:49 PM
btw, excuse my ignorance but what's the big deal with text to speech? Is this actually a popular feature? (why?) I mean I'll occasionally have Victoria (Vicki) read me something just to show off the capabilities of my mac, but other than that...

I have rules in Mail that use speech to let me know when a mail comes in that's work related. As I work from home, all my mail comes into the one account, and I just leave the machine on, and a nice little voice tells me when I've got a mail that needs immediate attention.

I also used to have some long long processes running on the Mac, and with energy saver the screen would go black, and if I got an error dialog, or some other feedback dialog, the Finder would read it out after 60 seconds. This meant that I wouldn't come back to the Mac after 4 or 5 hours, expecting a process to be finished, but it was stuck on some dialog.

SiliconAddict
May 4, 2004, 03:55 PM
sorry, longhorn may be out before OS X is a true 64 bit os. look how long it took to completely drop OS 9 support, and people are still using OS 9. Imagine the user ratio of G4s to G5...until it's anywhere near the ratio of OS 9 to OS X users...no 64 bit OS.



Longhorn will NOT be 64-bit optimized. That is a sure thing. They have been so focused on Windows XP SP2 MS has had to actually drop features from Longhorn to try and keep it on sched. If they are dropping features there is NO way they are doing to dink with 64-bit optimizations. My guess? 2007-2009 timeframe. Right now the only 64-bit desktop CPU for the PC is AMD's chip. Intel isn't expecting, AFAIK, anything for a while. Until it hits the mainstream MS isn't going to be in a hurry to rollout a 64-bit OS even though they do have a pure 64-bit version of Windows XP out right now. 64-bit Xp (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/) I wouldn't worry to much. Apple has plenty of time to get its 64-bit strategy up and running before MS is even a concern.

VegetaPunk
May 4, 2004, 03:58 PM
I hope the finder is zipper and most of all there are some network performance improvements.

manu chao
May 4, 2004, 03:58 PM
K, Im going to explain it with a timeline so you know what i am talking about... i don't know if you use photoshop on both platforms, but im going to assume that you don't since you don't know what i am talking about.

1ghz G4 Mac Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Bounce) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)

1ghz P3 WinXP Opening up Photoshop CS
(Click On Icon) (Splash Screen/loading prefs, fonts, etc) (In Photoshop)


I think the main point is how long does the whole thing take. Assuming it takes the same time, what is the difference between 2 seconds of bouncing (I personally like the flashing triangle much more) plus 2 seconds of splash screen on a Mac and 4 seconds of splash screen on Windows.

Actually, you might argue that there is only a 2 seconds splash screen on Windows (maybe, I don't know), then you would have a point, but one could counter that by saying (as others have already done) that you have to start your apps, at least your most common ones (which you don't mind cluttering up the Dock) only once per computer restart.

In principle this is also true on Windows, but it is more difficult to accomplish because, assuming the case of four open browser windows, closing three browser windows and not accidentally also closing the fourth one and instead minimizing it, is not as easy as it sounds.

wizard
May 4, 2004, 03:58 PM
You obviously have not had much exposure to the open source community. Spend a little time on www.freshmeat.net and see what I mean. Sourceforge is another good place to see what is up in the free software community.

Thanks
Dave



How can an acronym have itself in its definition. It just seems wrong. According to a little bit of web research, it seems it originally stood for WINdows Emulator, but later realizing it is not a "true" emulator, developers switched up the acronym.

areyouwishing
May 4, 2004, 03:58 PM
thanks for pointing me to the Dock preferences :)
I tried and found the black triangle blinks instead,
with the same interval as the bounce :cool:

but I think the bounce/blink is not the cause for the slow launch.
just check with the Activity Monitor during apps loading.
Most of the cpu time etc. are spent by the Apps,
not the Dock displaying bounce.
Eliminating bouncing animation won't do much good for launch time ;)

These eye-candies (bouncing, drop shadows, transparent menus)
do not cost much with the powerful Quartz Extreme...

I think everyone thinks im an idiot or something...

I know you can turn off the bounce, my problem is the way the OS talks to the Applications to tell them to launch. Some apps don't have a splash screen, like mail, safari, fetch, itunes, etc. those apps load right after the bouncing is done, which makes sense.

With the more CPU/RAM intensive apps there are splash screens that SHOW YOU WHAT ITS LOADING AND WHEN, my point is that why is there bouncing before these apps load, WHAT IS THE OS THINKING ABOUT TO GET THESE APP'S SPLASH/LOAD SCREENS TO COME UP?

Its easy to compare photoshop on OS X and XP because I have both and the systems are almost identical (spec wise). Even Soundtrack 1.2 takes a few bounces before the splash screen loads, but everything on a PC is click>splash, not like OS X which is Click>Bounce>Splash. There is an extra step for some unknown reason. SOMEONE TELL ME WHY!!!!

wizard
May 4, 2004, 04:05 PM
Now whos to say those prize boxes don't contain G5 cubes?

Lets face it Apple needs a iMac replacement that actually sells to more than just its current customer base. A cube that actually has a price point and feature set acceptable to the rest of us would be very atractive.

Besides it will be a very long year for Appl if they don't come out with something new soon. They may not have the chips to upgrade the G5's but they do have the potential to deliver a much better consumer machine.

Dave



sorry, longhorn may be out before OS X is a true 64 bit os. look how long it took to completely drop OS 9 support, and people are still using OS 9. Imagine the user ratio of G4s to G5...until it's anywhere near the ratio of OS 9 to OS X users...no 64 bit OS.



those would be the prize boxes...unfortunately not new G5 cubes :/.

areyouwishing
May 4, 2004, 04:08 PM
I think the main point is how long does the whole thing take. Assuming it takes the same time, what is the difference between 2 seconds of bouncing (I personally like the flashing triangle much more) plus 2 seconds of splash screen on a Mac and 4 seconds of splash screen on Windows.

Actually, you might argue that there is only a 2 seconds splash screen on Windows (maybe, I don't know), then you would have a point, but one could counter that by saying (as others have already done) that you have to start your apps, at least your most common ones (which you don't mind cluttering up the Dock) only once per computer restart.

The splash is shown less on my PC (3 years old) vs. my mac (6 months old) So all in all, photoshop loads quicker on my 3 year old machine... the reason why is the hard drive speed, but typically once an app is loaded, it uses all memory to open it up a second time.

cgc
May 4, 2004, 04:12 PM
How long until Tiger Woods sues Apple (like Spike Lee sued "Spike TV")?

JGowan
May 4, 2004, 04:15 PM
Maybe Tiger will finally fix my occasionally non-working Finder keyboard shortcuts. You know, I like using things like command-w to close a g*ddam window! Argh!I've NEVER seen command-W not work and I've had OSX beta, X, X.1, X.2 and X.3!

Too Weird.

NusuniAdmin
May 4, 2004, 04:22 PM
Tiger should have these:
-have the long awaited speech compatibility
-Virtual terminal support
-Virtual desktops
-uhhhhhh
-uhhhhhhh
-uhhhhhh
-new expose things??
-Will have new safari version?
-uhhh ok im outta ideas...

Bendit
May 4, 2004, 04:30 PM
I don't think this would be to early....assuming IBM has that 3 ghz beast brewing. If they can work out those bugs in the fab. I really think that 10.4 will be a true 64 bit os. Plus, XP 64 bit will be out this year....It would look good on Steve's half to beat ol' Microcrap to the punch again. I will agree with you on this point that 10.5 will be a 64 bit OS. I just hope it is not the first.

Oh.....then they could filter the slower G5's into the ibook. A G5 1.6 iBook, and a G5 2.8 Powerbook, and dual G5 3.2 Powermac. Makes sense in my book.

I doubt Mac OS would become true 64-but until Mac OS 11. If so, every application will have to be available in two flavours, 32bit and 64bit. They would also have two version of Mac OS. I don't think Apple will ever make their users pic from a selection of programs to be compatible with their computer. They are going to wait until most people have G5s. People are still using Mac OS X on 4 year old computers, so I would say it would take another 4-5 years to be able to transition to 64 bit.

If apple were to go true 64 bit anytime soon it would probably only be for Mac OS X Server and only their server apps (and maybe pro apps) would have 64 bit versions.

dstorey
May 4, 2004, 04:34 PM
But my major request is that they make iChat available for Windows, and able to connect to all the different clients. Being able to iSight with a Windows MSN Messenger user would be cool. Perhaps they could integrate iChat into the OS somehow, coming up with some amazing new ways of using it.

Apart from that, I think that Panther is one cool OS.

I'd love this as I still have some friends on Yahoo! and the uni network only allows MSN, so when I need to do uni work, I have to use MSN...which is so poor on OS X, plus only app I use that has ad's. I have noticed that iChat works in an interesting way though with the ICQ/AIM bridge. If you already have someone in your address book with a AIM name and then add their ICQ number, but tell Address Book that it is a AIM number instead, then not only can you chat to them with ICQ but it only shows up as one buddy in the list, and show them online whichever client they log into. Not had them log into both at the same time, so not sure how it would handle that?

As for integrating iChat into the OS X, isn't it not already in the same way as Address Book and Safari is? Safari uses Web Kit, while I guess that iChat is just an interface to the Instant Messenging Framework. But yeah, if Yahoo, MSN and Jabber could be added and work the same way as ICQ/AIM does then that would be much use to me, plus we could all use this frame work in our own apps that need to communicate with people in sme way...collaberation features in applications anyone?

oliverlubin
May 4, 2004, 04:35 PM
i havent read through 9 pages of posts but a few things that can be improved come to mind.

1) installers ignore network drives and iDisk drives. if you ever have a network drive mounted or your iDisk mounted and you run an installer it often kills the installer. Maybe this is for non-apple apps and it's a Installer VISE or whatever problem but it sucks either way.

2) bring back file selection by draging in list mode the way it used to be. make the new method an keyboard+click-drag. let me explain, right now if you are in list mode for a finder window and you select a file and drag down it just keeps selecting everything below that. before in list mode you could click and drag down and it would only select those files that stuck out far enough to overlap the drag erea you just created. i dont know if this is possible any more in 10.3.x and if it is in combination with a keystroke, someone please let me know.

3) improved iDisk speed. it takes FOREVER to send a file up to my iDisk, and about 1/2 as long to get it but still a while. would be great to improve this somehow.

4) built in disk-defragmentation. some low-level system process that will defragment drives on the fly or at user specified times w/o the need to reboot or start from special disks.

5) burn from finder improvements. the whole "create temp image and then burn" sucks and makes burning from the finder take so much longer. same goes for iTunes.

just a few thoughts...

Bendit
May 4, 2004, 04:35 PM
PHP stands for "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor". A more common example of a recursive acronym.

I beleive it was Pre Hypertext Processor.

And now PHP means nothing, they have dropped whatever rumoured name they used to have. PHP means PHP.

Fukui
May 4, 2004, 04:36 PM
To those saying OSX 64-bit wont run 32-bit apps, PowerPC (G5 and up) implements 64bit and 32bit integer/floating point math so in theory, they could test and compile the OS/frameworks and have have fat binaries where a single app can run on a G4 and run the 32-bit binary and on a G5 run the 64 bit binary...and on a G5 system, even on a fully 64-bit Panther/Tiger the 32-bit app can still run just fine because the PowerPC was designed just for this situation.

As a note, darwin has already been ported (not without bugs) to Itanium, so....

Rower_CPU
May 4, 2004, 04:38 PM
I beleive it was Pre Hypertext Processor.

And now PHP means nothing, they have dropped whatever rumoured name they used to have. PHP means PHP.

maintreetmark was right, it's PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor.

Check out the PHP site (http://www.php.net/) - it's in the page title as well as in the title tag on the acronym on the left side of the page.

I think we've had enough acronym chat - let's keep in on topic. :)

ITR 81
May 4, 2004, 04:41 PM
I'll be buying Tiger in Oct. or whenever it's released mostly because I'll be buying a new PM by then and I'll need it also for my G4 PB as well.

Great time to use my EDU account again.

bousozoku
May 4, 2004, 04:42 PM
I actually like the bouncing, sometimes on windows i think i double clicked something and i wait for like 2 mins and im like wait, i missed the second click. At least this way i know its opening.

I know what you mean. If Windows would dim the icon to let you know that it was being launched, it would be a simple cue so you wouldn't end up with 16 instances of an application running. :D

Bendit
May 4, 2004, 04:42 PM
half the time that would be a black screen........

10.1 was free because 10.0 was a piece of ****. 10.2 should of been free too, but paying for 10.3 was well worth it.

And you say you don't have to upgrade with every new version... if you don't you automaticly become a second rate mac user. Many apps stop supporting you. Even if they do keep supporting, how long do you think they will support you for? How many apps require 10.2? pretty much ANY application. Just like this time next year every app will require 10.3 and some will require 10.4. so yes, you do need to upgrade atleast every 2 years (at a minimu) to enjoy being a computer user.

x86isslow
May 4, 2004, 04:43 PM
Oh please please PLEASE return networking like it was under JagWIRE (Job's pronunciation) you know back when you could actually browse and see the other Macs on your network, not have to type in their IP addresses (which is dumb).

Wasnt Job a biblical figure? something about G-d taking his kids away?

I think you mean Jobs' not Job's ;)

DaveGee
May 4, 2004, 04:46 PM
My favorite...probably because it's just so uninformative is PHP, which stands for "PHP Hypertext Processor"


Close but no cigar (http://us2.php.net/history)... Way back in the day... PHP stood for:

"Personal Home Page"

It has seen been reborn as "PHP Hypertext Processor" but some of us old timers still remember it's true roots. :)

Dave

NusuniAdmin
May 4, 2004, 04:55 PM
4) built in disk-defragmentation. some low-level system process that will defragment drives on the fly or at user specified times w/o the need to reboot or start from special disks.


That is why installers say "optomization" the optomization is arranging the files it installs into the fastest and most suitable matter on the drive. Plus HFS+ devices have that thingy that auto "defrag" files that are under 20 megs and meet certain criteria.

spfolly
May 4, 2004, 05:11 PM
That is why installers say "optomization" the optomization is arranging the files it installs into the fastest and most suitable matter on the drive.

No.

The optimization phase of an installation updates pre-bindings to dynamic libraries for the things being installed. It doesn't rearrange file locations on the disk. See update_prebinding man page.



Steve.

coolsoldier
May 4, 2004, 05:12 PM
That is why installers say "optomization" the optomization is arranging the files it installs into the fastest and most suitable matter on the drive. Plus HFS+ devices have that thingy that auto "defrag" files that are under 20 megs and meet certain criteria.

Not quite. The installers do not defragment, or "arrange files," they update prebindings (check the system activity while it's running). From the manpage for the update_prebinding process:

...tries to synchronize prebinding information for libraries and executables when new files are added to a system. Prebinding information is pre-calculated address information for libraries used by a given executable or library. By pre-determining where a function in another library is destined to be placed, the dynamic linker does not have to resolve symbols at application startup time, and the application can launch faster.

Edit: I guess I don't type fast enough ;)

tkermit
May 4, 2004, 05:15 PM
wow...I've read through 10 pages and most of the desperately needed non-existant (or malfunctioning) features in Panther haven't even been mentioned.
What's up with you guys? Is the rumour about the mac's (or namely Steve Job's) reality distortion field REALLY true ? How can you be so content with panther...sure I like it over Windows XP(although there is a lot in Windows XP that should be just copied over to panther (seriously - just like Microsoft does it ;-) )), but there are so many things that have to be worked on I don't even know where to begin...
Don't get me wrong, I actually REALLY REALLY LIKE my Mac (iBook G4), but some of the things on my list are really getting on my nerves. After all, shouldn't we all be interested in a better Macintosh experience ? Why should we be content with what we've got ? There's so much more that can be done (and some of it is pretty obvious stuff). OK, here are just a few of my major complaints...

(this one was mentioned): - previews of movies in ICON view (just like in Windows XP)

- FAST previews of pictures in ICON view (I know Windows saves them all in a file so they can be QUICKLY displayed the next time you look at the folder - don't know if that's the best solution, but on OS X I have to wait SEVERAL MINUTES for all the previews of ~ 30 1600x1200 pictures to load)

- working previews in column-view in OPEN/SAVE DIALOGUES (am I the only one for whom that isn't working ? )

- less application crashing (safari, iTunes, Mail all crash more often than their Windows counterparts ... still only every 4-5 days, but still (is that just me))

- remember column-width in Finder or make it auto-resizing (so that I can actually see what file I am looking at without spending time readjusting the columns (what's up with: "theo......man" ?)

- automatically use birthday-entries from contacts in iCal (ok, that's a minor one)
- faster Finder (obviously)

..some other things I can't think of right now....


btw...10.3 is GREAT, a kick-ass operating system, without question... *g*

nagromme
May 4, 2004, 05:16 PM
jaguar was the first mature osx version. everything before that need to be considered as one package.

Certainly, I agree--and my point is, you paid for NO X-to-X upgrades during that period. No matter WHEN you bought in, from beta to 10.0 to 10.1, you paid only $129 all told (or less for education) for the package you refer to, up to and including 10.1. Thus, the first paid upgrade of OS X was Jaguar.

LaMerVipere
May 4, 2004, 05:18 PM
Wow, am I the onle one who feels like Panther just came out last month or something? :)

thogs_cave
May 4, 2004, 05:22 PM
In this little timeline you can see that on a PC you go straight from click to splash with no IN-BETWEEN LOADING like on a mac... also known as bounces.

Then just turn the dock bouncing off and be done with it. Why whine about something you can turn off?

eyeluvmyimac
May 4, 2004, 05:29 PM
http://demo.taglab.com/finder_tiger.jpg
... in my dreams ;)

wow thats awesome....that has a lot of potential....email that to apple as a suggestion :p

I have rules in Mail that use speech to let me know when a mail comes in that's work related. As I work from home, all my mail comes into the one account, and I just leave the machine on, and a nice little voice tells me when I've got a mail that needs immediate attention.

I also used to have some long long processes running on the Mac, and with energy saver the screen would go black, and if I got an error dialog, or some other feedback dialog, the Finder would read it out after 60 seconds. This meant that I wouldn't come back to the Mac after 4 or 5 hours, expecting a process to be finished, but it was stuck on some dialog.

so if it already has everything you need (mine does the same minus the email alert), then whats the big deal about it being revamped or whatever everyone is talking about...

Spades
May 4, 2004, 05:30 PM
There is a particular step in the load process that the operating system is waiting for before the bouncing stops. What is that step? Who knows, but it is most likely something that occurs before the window is displayed. If a window is not displayed immediately, then the bouncing will continue. As for why a window (or splash screen) is not displayed immediately, you will have to ask Adobe that question, not Apple.

There is an extra step for some unknown reason. SOMEONE TELL ME WHY!!!!

Doctor Q
May 4, 2004, 05:31 PM
2) bring back file selection by draging in list mode the way it used to be. make the new method an keyboard+click-drag. let me explain, right now if you are in list mode for a finder window and you select a file and drag down it just keeps selecting everything below that. before in list mode you could click and drag down and it would only select those files that stuck out far enough to overlap the drag erea you just created. i dont know if this is possible any more in 10.3.x and if it is in combination with a keystroke, someone please let me know.Selection in list mode drives me nutty too. I keep trying to select by dragging upward from below the last item, but it won't select anything at all. Their design doesn't match my intuition.

Elan0204
May 4, 2004, 05:35 PM
FAST previews of pictures in ICON view (I know Windows saves them all in a file so they can be QUICKLY displayed the next time you look at the folder - don't know if that's the best solution, but on OS X I have to wait SEVERAL MINUTES for all the previews of ~ 30 1600x1200 pictures to load)I agree with this complaint. Picture previews take forever to load. Plus you have to scroll through a window that has lots of pictures in order to get thumbnails generated for all of them. If the icon is not on screen, then OS X doesn't even bother creating a thumbnail.


Working previews in column-view in OPEN/SAVE DIALOGUES (am I the only one for whom that isn't working ? )
No, you're not. I never understood why this didn't work.


Less application crashing (safari, iTunes, Mail all crash more often than their Windows counterparts ... still only every 4-5 days, but still (is that just me))Safari does crash a lot more than I like, and still beachballs a lot for no real reason when loading some pages. However, I don't think I have ever had iTunes crash (in any version of OS X). I don't use Mail.app, so I can't comment on it crashing.

Good list of suggestions. I think we should both submit them to Apple Feedback.

idkew
May 4, 2004, 05:41 PM
I beleive it was Pre Hypertext Processor.

And now PHP means nothing, they have dropped whatever rumoured name they used to have. PHP means PHP.

You're wrong. it is quite obviously Player Hatin' Protocol.

come on, get with the times.

tkermit
May 4, 2004, 05:43 PM
Good list of suggestions. I think we should both submit them to Apple Feedback.

Where do you do that ? Is there an option in OS X or is there a form on some webpage ?

thx, tk.

ssamani
May 4, 2004, 05:46 PM
... and greater, easier Linux compatibility. It'd be great to be able to load Debian and Red Hat packages "just like that." Suddenly we'd have Amaya and all sorts of other apps just a few commands or clicks away...y'know, people like me are rapidly becoming a minority in the Mac world; they're attracting the hard core science and IT pros more and more with their UNIX structures. Easing the use of Linux apps would be a killer. So, of course, would be making it easier to use SMB...and for Heaven's sake, integrating FruitMenu and X-Assist and KILLING command-H and command-M and universals. (Great idea, taking the universal "search and replace" and the PowerPoint "new slide" commands and pre-empting 'em. Why not use command-P and command-N too?)

...and let's add better Java speed and compatibility! That's also a key "why-not" issue...

...and, yes, more ease of flexibility, in where to store your various libraries; and de-mystifying the folder structure'd be nice too. Someday it'd be nice to have Classic *libraries* so you don't need to run Classic, but I suspect that's impossible, so I won't hope.

... a better Terminal - like integrated iTerm! or something similar ...

... an option to use System 9-style open/save boxes... I *hate* both current options.

... I'm sure there are LOTS of other requests.

Yes, that's what die hard Mac fans are screaming for... a better Command Line Interface and Linux's committee based UI design.

ZildjianKX
May 4, 2004, 05:47 PM
:mad:
<rant>
What's WITH you people?!? Apple doesn't come out with new products, you bitch and moan. Apple DOES come out with new products, you bitch and moan. If they are really all that bad, go use Windows, ****, and burn in hell with the rest of the poor Redmond-ite saps. Otherwise, shape up, realize that Apple is kicking the hell out of everyone software-wise and accept that having the best technology costs a premium.
</rant>

Apologies to those I have offended, and the above statements are not directed at any individual, not even you Zildjian, I just couldn't take it anymore :o

Hey, if they made the OS right the first time, they wouldn't need that frequent of an update :)

People want frequent hardware updates, people don't want frequent OS updates... IMHO. They need to spend more R&D time between OS updates and less on adding a few things and then charging more for them.

elgruga
May 4, 2004, 05:52 PM
Another OS? Wow.
I am not doing any more upgrading.
Too silly.

If I like the next OS - I AM GOING TO STEAL IT!

Because its just getting silly - and to the guy who asked "didnt Panther come out like a month ago?" Yes, it did.
I feel the same way.

Enough already.

These boards are becoming sycophantic teenage junk, for the most part.

Bendit
May 4, 2004, 05:58 PM
I hope Tiger isn't due anytime soon after WWDC, Panther hasn't even had time to mature yet. Fix SMB browsing once and for all. Jesus. I wouldn't mind waiting until Summer '05 for Tiger aslong as they get it RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

ssamani
May 4, 2004, 06:01 PM
WINE is supposed to be an emulator that you can run Windoze on.

WINE = Wine Is Not an Emulator.

WINE is a reverse engineered set of MFC (MS Foundation classes) Libs, the Carbon/Cocoa of the Windows world. It basically is a bunch of libs that mimick the standard Windows programming interface on non Windows OS's, e.g., Linux, so that Windows apps will run under it without being ported. However it does NOT emulate a PC or Windows. Windows apps need lots of MS developed Libs to work, WINE provides them under Linux.

One slight drawback is that as the apps don't need to be recompiled, they are compiled for x86 so unless Tiger is also available for PC's WINE on OS X ain't going to happen.

Considering the original request came from the guy who wanted a better CLI, I would suggest he buy a PC as the masses of alternate and better Mac software don't seem to suit.

ktrout
May 4, 2004, 06:01 PM
How can an acronym have itself in its definition. It just seems wrong. According to a little bit of web research, it seems it originally stood for WINdows Emulator, but later realizing it is not a "true" emulator, developers switched up the acronym.

Recursive definitions are common, or at least not that rare. Like GNU for Gnu's Not Unix.

Hes Nikke
May 4, 2004, 06:02 PM
that's on my wish list too. it'd be great if apple specified ui elements width by millimeters and not by pixels, and let the screen resolution scale the same way the printing does.

that'd enable the use of really high resolution lcd:s which are quite costly for the time being. (and i'm not talking about the displays dell uses in its laptops, but real high-end displays used in medical instruments. they talk about +600dpi in there, compared to this powerbook's about 100dpi.)

oh yeah, i'd like to have that G5 powerbook to have a 300dpi display ;)

here here! than i'd be able to purchase a high resolution PowerBook and still be able to see! (just like my high resolution Clié) :D

i'd pay $129 for that alone! :eek: