Virtual PC 7 Delayed

[MacRumors]

ZDnet reports (http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5211129.html) that Microsoft has delayed Virtual PC 7 for the Mac.

Initially, our development and testing time line was estimated based on our experience with development of Office," Microsoft product manager Jessica Sommer said in a statement. "The developing, testing and bug fix cycle with Virtual PC is longer than that of Office and the testing more vigorous than previous version(s) of Virtual PC. Because of this, we have adjusted our release timing to match a more realistic schedule."

The new version of Virtual PC is now expected in the second half of the year, rather than the first. Version 7 will bring PowerPC G5 support. Previous versions are incompatible with the PowerMac G5s.

[advocate]

Yet another reason I won't be buying a PowerMac G5 this summer. Sigh.

[MrMacMan]

It better be fast.

And it better provide Real *hardware* video acceleration. No more crummy Software acceleration.

Microsoft you better do it right if your going to delay it! :mad:

[Chaszmyr]

MacBidioulle (sp?) believes that it will be able to control video cards and therefore be able to play PC games... How awesome would that be?

[Veldek]

Another thread with an ongoing discussion:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71491

[GFLPraxis]

What, and it hadn't been delayed enough already?

It had *BETTER* be able to play games and work with the video card...and be fast...

If the only enhancement is G5 compatibilty, we'd be better off just downloading Bochs for $30 and running it on the G5...

[Veldek]

MacBidioulle (sp?) believes that it will be able to control video cards and therefore be able to play PC games... How awesome would that be?

This would be really great. Although they said they couldn't test it because it was too unstable. But perhaps I will be able to play quite old games like Day of Defeat with a Rev B. Power Mac and VPC 7. I hope so!

[JonYo]

Yet another reason I won't be buying a PowerMac G5 this summer. Sigh.

Uhhhh, what? If the only reason you want a G5 is to run VPC really fast and run PC applications...why not just buy a PC? If that's NOT all you would do with a G5, why NOT buy one this late-spring/early-summer when revB G5s arrive (hopefully)?

Regardless of the video performance of the next update of VPC on G5s, anyone who likes to stay in the Mac world for most apps, but still likes PC gaming a lot, ought to just have both a Mac and a PC. PC gaming-related HW upgrade cycles (high end video cards, controllers, etc) happen so fast, that it's futile to rely on VPC performance via software updates to constantly keep up with that in terms of compatability. The Mac-native game market is so tiny in comparison to the PC game market, that it doesn't even register on the radar.

Video games interest me about as much as watching paint dry, but that's just me.

My guess: A new VPC update will be released for G5 comatability before the next rev G5 desktops make it to end users. (Not the "possibily imminent" revB G5 anouncement mind you, I mean when actual shipments start reaching customers) I doubt this update will do much more than bring G5 compatability. I think the extreme video performance boost that would be brought on by having Windows able to access the video card directly will take longer to work out, if they're really trying to do that.

- JonYo

[derboy]

As if microsoft could give a ***** about the release date. The fact that they are trying to fix bugs before release says it all. - And any optimisation will be when exactly??

Could this project be slowed down any further. To actually buy out connectix is proof enough that they dont want any kind of comparison of window on a mac over a pc, to be available.

What a joke. - bothered

[virividox]

they are adding vulnerabilites that all windoze boxes suffer from :D incorporating that into osx is difficult tho
hehe

seriously it better be worth the wait

[nagromme]

I'm surprised how little I need to run anything in Windows. In the last year I have needed that ZERO times other than testing a page of my creation in Windows Internet Explorer. And my whole business is creating multimedia for Windows customers. Now that Director for Mac exports Windows apps, I may never have much need of Windows again.

I must not be alone, because I'm surprised there hasn't been more vocal protest over the past year that G5s can't yet run Windows. Necessary for some of course, but I'm surprised how few people truly need it.

There really are good Mac alternatives for most people.

I still may upgrade my copy of VPC "just in case"--if the next version is good enough. MBU has done some good work in the past, after all.

[dizastor]

they are adding vulnerabilites that all windoze boxes suffer from

I heard they are also working on a way cause a systemwide OSX crash from within VPC... they are still working day and night on that. They are said to have an OSX version of the Blue Screen of Death in Beta testing.

I can't wait!

[SiliconAddict]

ought to just have both a Mac and a PC. PC gaming-related HW upgrade cycles (high end video cards, controllers, etc) happen so fast,


Ya right. Some of us don't have the room for two desktops and two monitors. :rolleyes:

[Flowbee]

As if microsoft could give a ***** about the release date. The fact that they are trying to fix bugs before release says it all. - And any optimisation will be when exactly??

Could this project be slowed down any further. To actually buy out connectix is proof enough that they dont want any kind of comparison of window on a mac over a pc, to be available.

What a joke. - bothered

The fact is, if the new VPC *can* actually take advantage of your video card, making it possible to run programs faster and play PC games, MS will sell tons of Office/VPC/XP software to Mac users. You'd better believe that MS would love to have a copy of XP installed on every Mac possibe.

They also know that Mac users will be super-critical of the new VPC. If there are any major flaws, it will be a disaster. They're better off making sure it works properly before releasing it.

[iMeowbot]

Ya right. Some of us don't have the room for two desktops and two monitors. :rolleyes:

Look here (http://www.realvnc.com/) and here (http://www.redstonesoftware.com/vnc.html), and use your imagination on the PC placement. Very cool stuff.

[ZildjianKX]

Another thread with an ongoing discussion:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71491

Not to mention the other thread is about 14 hours older too :)

[SiliconAddict]

Look here (http://www.realvnc.com/) and here (http://www.redstonesoftware.com/vnc.html), and use your imagination on the PC placement. Very cool stuff.


Yes and have you ever tried VNC with games? Can you say refresh rate hell? Beyond that what happens when I take my G5 17" PowerBook ;) Somewhere where I want to access MapPoint, MS Access, Encarta.

[derboy]

The fact is, if the new VPC *can* actually take advantage of your video card, making it possible to run programs faster and play PC games, MS will sell tons of Office/VPC/XP software to Mac users. You'd better believe that MS would love to have a copy of XP installed on every Mac possibe.

They also know that Mac users will be super-critical of the new VPC. If there are any major flaws, it will be a disaster. They're better off making sure it works properly before releasing it.

Today 11:09 PM

Sorry, if that was true vpc would have been released ages ago. For one of the biggest multinational companies not having developed this project is pathetic. They have not given it the resources because its too risky to do and there are too many conflicts at board level.

[ZildjianKX]

Ya right. Some of us don't have the room for two desktops and two monitors. :rolleyes:

If i was to get a PC to compliment my mac, I would buy a case from here (http://us.shuttle.com/) and use a monitor with dual inputs... another reason not to buy an Apple Studio Display. I would Remote Desktop Connection for most of my windows needs, or just switch the video inputs. You could use a USB switch box to switch your mouse and keyboard from the mac to the PC...

[Phatpat]

Before I got my first mac, I was very concerned about the availability and performance of VPC and other apps that let you run Windows on a mac. Then I got my powerbook. I don't have a desire for VPC anymore, it's as simple as that.

[virividox]

to be honest when i was using vpc i was happy, but now that i dont use it im just as happy and found ways to do the things i was doing using freeware for the mac; cept autocad..but i dont use that, my friends do hehe

[mchambe1]

Now I'm really at odds for making a decision. I am a Mac user who has had to maintain a Dell PC for two years because one of my clients is obsessed with the "if you get hit by a train I need to be able to take over" theory regarding his web site, which I "have" to maintain in FrontPage - please, don't laught too hard. Just recently I told him that I would be dropping the PC soon and that I was either going to use Dreamweaver for the site or get VPC and install FrontPage on my Mac. My main question is how will FrontPage work in VPC (anyone with experience?)? The other dilemnia is whether or not to wait for VPC 7? I use both a new Powerbook and an iMac with 1.25Ghz procs. Thanks for any advice!

[h'biki]

The other dilemnia is whether or not to wait for VPC 7? I use both a new Powerbook and an iMac with 1.25Ghz procs. Thanks for any advice!

If you purchase Office Professional (the version which comes with VPC) now, then you are entitlted to a free upgrade to Office Pro 2004 -- which will include VPC 7.

[micvog]

My main question is how will FrontPage work in VPC (anyone with experience?)? The other dilemnia is whether or not to wait for VPC 7? I use both a new Powerbook and an iMac with 1.25Ghz procs. Thanks for any advice!

I attended a FrontPage 2002 training session and borrowed a 300MHz PII laptop with 64MB RAM. It was definately useable. My understanding is that most modern Macs would emulate a PC with at LEAST those specs, so you should be fine.

[Abstract]

I can't believe some people have given this a negative rating. Its either a delay, or they release a buggy software. We know that MS would actually do that, so lets just wait for the better version. ;) If they're actually making it better than ever before, then props to them.

I just think that there are people here who are waaaay to anti-Microsoft. Microsoft is a software company....it ain't personal. It didn't try to steal your babies or something. How can you talk crap about a product that hasn't even been released yet, especially when they're trying to make it better and admit that there are issues with it right now. I'd rather they admit it now than later after I spend money on the frickin thing.

It better be fast.

And it better provide Real *hardware* video acceleration. No more crummy Software acceleration.

Microsoft you better do it right if your going to delay it! :mad:

Did the company that made it before (forgot the company's name) "do it right"? I don't believe so. MS could only make it better at this point. If they make it able to handle graphics better, I'd be happy.

Mmmmm, I smell burnt toast.......

[fatfish]

I consider it so sad that anyone is still thinking VPC.

Only two possible reasons that make me even give it a moments thought.

Gaming - waste of time, yes much more on the windows platform, but not a patch on a dedicated game consul, anyway VPC won't do the job whatever you have heard.

Clients who want you to use a PC - forget 'em, any client who dictates what computer you use is the type that will have you wiping their backside for them, you don't need 'em.

So M$ have delayed VPC, so who cares.

[littlejim]

I've always believed that Apple should have bought the Virtual PC technology a long, long time ago. Apple used to (rightly) make such a song and dance about how important VPC was ... and it was one of the best trump cards I could play when convincing PC users to switch.

So the fact that Microsoft have yet again delayed the release date for VPC 7 is no suprise to me whatsoever.

[eric_n_dfw]

As if microsoft could give a ***** about the release date. The fact that they are trying to fix bugs before release says it all. - And any optimisation will be when exactly??

Could this project be slowed down any further. To actually buy out connectix is proof enough that they dont want any kind of comparison of window on a mac over a pc, to be available.

What a joke. - bothered
Not to sound like a MS supporter, but the hurdles involved in getting VPC to run at any acceptable speed on a G5 are huge. As has been talked about here ad-nausium when the G5 came out (do a search) it is lacking hardware endian conversion which all prior PowerPC chips back to at least the 603 had. We're also talking about very low level, optimized machine code here. Probably the most complex application code being worked on for the Mac anywhere.

Emulators can be relatively easy to write (provided you have the spec's on the thing you are emulating); but FAST emulators - especialy one as complex as emulating an entire PC - are mind bogglingly complex. Ever play MAME - I remember when I finally got a machine fast enough to handle Galaga: it was a Pentium 100Mhz. To emulate a machine running on an 8 bit chip at single digit clock speeds.

Also from what I've read, I believe MS bought Connectix for two reasons:
- Connectix saw the writing on the wall with the G5 hardware problem and didn't want (or didn't have the resources) to deal with it.
- Microsoft needed a good way to run 32Bit windows (x86) on 64Bit Windows and the relatively new VirtualPC for Windows could be ported to 64Bit Win API's - thus allowing legacy, 32bit apps to run in a kind of "classic" environment on XP 64 Bit Edition.

Connectix wanted out of the market and MS needed into it. VPC for Mac is gravy - I'm actually surprised they didn't can it the day they bought the rights.

[eric_n_dfw]

For the record we have a PC that we use for some office applications that only run on Windows - most notably QuickBooks.

We have it under the desk with a $60 USB KVM switch and also run vncserver on it for when we want to see both screens.

[fatfish]

I've always believed that Apple should have bought the Virtual PC technology a long, long time ago. Apple used to (rightly) make such a song and dance about how important VPC was ... and it was one of the best trump cards I could play when convincing PC users to switch.

Apple buy an app that will promote Windows - Perhaps the sort of thing discussed at the Irish college of economics - get real.

Apple never made a song and dance about VPC, just pointed out that it was available for cross platform compatability. Since then both Apple and M$ have made it that cross platform compatability can be acheived without VPC.

[advocate]

Uhhhh, what? If the only reason you want a G5 is to run VPC really fast and run PC applications...why not just buy a PC?
Uhhhhhh, what? Did you see the word another?

[fatfish]

Also from what I've read, I believe MS bought Connectix for two reasons:
- Connectix saw the writing on the wall with the G5 hardware problem and didn't want (or didn't have the resources) to deal with it.
- Microsoft needed a good way to run 32Bit windows (x86) on 64Bit Windows and the relatively new VirtualPC for Windows could be ported to 64Bit Win API's - thus allowing legacy, 32bit apps to run in a kind of "classic" environment on XP 64 Bit Edition.

As I understand it M$ bought VPC from connectix not connectix. For what it's worth my angle is 1. Connectix got shut, they could see that it was going to be less and less useful for the Mac and increasingly difficult to produce for the PC. 2. M$ will need to radically alter the way windows works if they are to catch up with OSX, they will need to alter things so radically they will be in danger of leaving millions of people in the past who won't or can't buy a new PC. VPC will bridge the gap just nicely.

If VPC 7 ever comes out for the mac, my guess is it will be the last one.

[omnivector]

if you pay $30 for bochs you deserve to have those retards take your money. bochs is OPEN SOURCE. just compile the thing yourself. sheesh don't give some company $30 of your money because you couldn't install darwinports or fink.

[marke]

What is "PC", and what is this "Windows" thing everyone keeps talking about? :confused:

[littlejim]

Apple buy an app that will promote Windows - Perhaps the sort of thing discussed at the Irish college of economics - get real.

Apple never made a song and dance about VPC, just pointed out that it was available for cross platform compatability. Since then both Apple and M$ have made it that cross platform compatability can be acheived without VPC.

At the moment, it is in Apple's interest to promote Windows compatability.
One might not like it, but it makes damn good economics to me (BTW, Irish Economics is very highly regarded in Europe).
Do a search on this web site - or any other web site - as to just how important M$ Access, M$ Visio, M$ Project, or even just to simply see what their web site looks like on the 'other' platform.

And can someone tell me how, for example, to test a Flash movie that relies on Active-X without VPC or a PC if this magical cross platform compatability is achieveable?!

[AidenShaw]

- Microsoft needed a good way to run 32Bit windows (x86) on 64Bit Windows and the relatively new VirtualPC for Windows could be ported to 64Bit Win API's - thus allowing legacy, 32bit apps to run in a kind of "classic" environment on XP 64 Bit Edition.

Not quite. WOW64 was already out by then. You might have heard that NT has a 16-bit Windows environment (WOW-Windows On Windows) that runs 16-bit applications in a subsystem on the 32-bit NT system. No need for CPU emulation, the x86 has the 16-bit instruction set as well as the 32-bit. WOW (or NTVDM - NT Virtual DOS Machine) remapped (or "thunked") the 16-bit API calls into the 32-bit equivalents.

WOW64 is more or less the same - it provides a 32-bit API environment on top of the 64-bit Windows systems that are now shipping. (Note that software emulation of x86-32 comes from Intel, not MS (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/ipf/ia32el.mspx and http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20040113comp.htm).


Microsoft wanted Connectix Virtual Server - for running Windows virtual machines on top of Windows hosts. Two very important market needs:


Legacy apps - run old stuff in NT4 or Win2K virtual systems on top of Win2K3 servers
Server consolidation - got 5 apps that all insist on port 80 for their web interface? Run them in 5 virtual machines on one Windiows 2003 host


Virtual PC for Mac was only a footnote in the discussion....

[ingenious]

Microsoft you better do it right if your going to delay it! :mad:

you're joking right? i could care less if VPC7 was delayed, but then again, i never use VPC and prolly never will. To me, running Windows on my mac is kind of hypocritical, not to mention dangerous (would you leave your car unlocked with the windows rolled down and the keys in the ignition on the bad side of town with a sticky note that says "do not enter?" :D )!

[DaveClarkOne]

What is "PC", and what is this "Windows" thing everyone keeps talking about? :confused:

PC is short for Piece of Crap, which is why you should throw it through your Windows.

[ZildjianKX]

I consider it so sad that anyone is still thinking VPC.

Only two possible reasons that make me even give it a moments thought.

Gaming - waste of time, yes much more on the windows platform, but not a patch on a dedicated game consul, anyway VPC won't do the job whatever you have heard.

Clients who want you to use a PC - forget 'em, any client who dictates what computer you use is the type that will have you wiping their backside for them, you don't need 'em.

So M$ have delayed VPC, so who cares.

What you said is true, but not entirely... there are some very important programs that are PC only that some mac users need to use and don't want to use a PC to do them. You may not care about the delay, but a lot of people do (myself included).

[nagromme]

I consider it so sad that anyone is still thinking VPC.

Only two possible reasons that make me even give it a moments thought.

Don't forget the MOST useful reason, IMO: buying and lugging one laptop instead of two! "Just get a cheap PC" doesn't do much for mobile users--and I love mobility even when I don't strictly need it. (Not to mention, I find you get what you pay for with a "cheap PC." An overpriced doorstop when it breaks down the week after warranty. That's what I got BEFORE I went with VPC. I now prefer the convenience of VPC to the speed of my real PC--the eMachines that can't be turned off without pulling the plug!)

[Stecchino]

If i was to get a PC to compliment my mac, I would buy a case from here (http://us.shuttle.com/) and use a monitor with dual inputs... another reason not to buy an Apple Studio Display. I would Remote Desktop Connection for most of my windows needs, or just switch the video inputs. You could use a USB switch box to switch your mouse and keyboard from the mac to the PC...

Thanks for posting that link. I really like those Shuttle cases. Very compact, very nice alternative to an all-out Alienware system for PC gaming.

[AtlantaGuy]

I consider it so sad that anyone is still thinking VPC.
Only two possible reasons that make me even give it a moments thought.
Gaming - waste of time, yes much more on the windows platform, but not a patch on a dedicated game consul, anyway VPC won't do the job whatever you have heard.
Clients who want you to use a PC - forget 'em, any client who dictates what computer you use is the type that will have you wiping their backside for them, you don't need 'em.
So M$ have delayed VPC, so who cares.

"So who cares?"... I do.

Here in the adult world we have work to do. I just bought a 2.8gHz, 512 MB RAM, Windows XP-equipped PC and a 17" CRT for $700 for the sole purpose of running a single indispensible real estate database application that has no Mac equivalent.

Yes, my first choice would be to use an OS X version of that app (or an equivalent)... it does not exist, and never will. My second choice would be to run that PC app on a 17" PowerBook G5 with VPC 7... those products do not yet exist.

I'd like to have alternatives, but childish posturing won't accomplish anything. I'll use whatever is necessary to get the job done.

[AidenShaw]

the eMachines that can't be turned off without pulling the plug!

Press and hold the power switch for six seconds, it should turn off....

[iLilana]

it would be cheaper to buy a used celeron 600... plus it works better


how necessary is windows to non gamers? oh well

[ingenious]

"So who cares?"... I do.

Here in the adult world we have work to do. I just bought a 2.8gHz, 512 MB RAM, Windows XP-equipped PC and a 17" CRT for $700 for the sole purpose of running a single indispensible real estate database application that has no Mac equivalent.

Yes, my first choice would be to use an OS X version of that app (or an equivalent)... it does not exist, and never will. My second choice would be to run that PC app on a 17" PowerBook G5 with VPC 7... those products do not yet exist.

I'd like to have alternatives, but childish posturing won't accomplish anything. I'll use whatever is necessary to get the job done.

looks like you just wasted $700 and set yourself up to be flamed.

[eric_n_dfw]

looks like you just wasted $700 and set yourself up to be flamed.
If he's making money on his real estate investments because he's more productive due to that software then let him be flamed - all the way to the bank.

[evilbert420]

Aidenshaw is correct. Microsoft bought VirtualPC so that it could virtualize server sessions... for their VirtualServer product that's coming this year.

Companies are still running poorly-written software on servers that's tied to NT4. New server hardware typically can't run NT4, but new hardware can run Server 2003, with those apps running in virtual NT4 sessions. Old servers cost money to maintain, and often more than new servers if a replacement part is needed within a 2-4 hour service window.

You conspiracy theorists never stop, do you?

[itsa]

This would be really great. Although they said they couldn't test it because it was too unstable.


That would be the ONLY reason I would buy it!

[ZildjianKX]

looks like you just wasted $700 and set yourself up to be flamed.

Wow, that was one of the worst comments I've read in awhile...

[ryanw]

I think they're lying, or at least not saying the WHOLE truth. I think the reason for the delay of Virtual PC 7 is YES, they're rewriting the API so it works with the PowerPC 970 processor (G5), BUT their driving factor for the re-write of the API is to make it so that they can easily integrate the VirtualPC APIs on the future XBOX for backward compatibility for old x86 games.

[MacBandit]

I consider it so sad that anyone is still thinking VPC.

Only two possible reasons that make me even give it a moments thought.

Gaming - waste of time, yes much more on the windows platform, but not a patch on a dedicated game consul, anyway VPC won't do the job whatever you have heard.

Clients who want you to use a PC - forget 'em, any client who dictates what computer you use is the type that will have you wiping their backside for them, you don't need 'em.

So M$ have delayed VPC, so who cares.

Some of us would like it so our damn GPSs will work with our Macs.

[MtDewaholic]

Not to sound like a MS supporter, but the hurdles involved in getting VPC to run at any acceptable speed on a G5 are huge. As has been talked about here ad-nausium when the G5 came out (do a search) it is lacking hardware endian conversion which all prior PowerPC chips back to at least the 603 had.

Umm... the G5 does support little endian mode. There is a bit (LE) in the Machine State Register (MSR) that you can set telling the processor what endian mode to use. Unlike some other bits in the MSR, this bit is not optional. This information can be found in the book "PowerPC Microprocessor Family: Programming Environments Manual for 64 and 32-bit Microprocessors". You can find it here: http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_970_Microprocessor
This book is used for ALL PowerPC processors, even the PPC 862 I program for at work every day. This book defines what a PowerPC processor is. I have seen no documentation anywhere stating that the PPC 970 is an exception.

As far as I can tell, Microsoft is flat out lying when they say the G5 doesn't support little endian mode. You need to show me documentation that comes from IBM to convince me otherwise. This doesn't mean that Microsoft is lying about Virtual PC 6 being incompatible with the G5. There could be bugs in the G5 that effect Virtual PC that wouldn't effect normal applications. Or, there could be workarounds for G4 bugs in Virtual PC 6 that don't work on a G5. This scenerio isn't entirely impossible. I know the 862 I work with has problems that need to be worked around in software.

As for the delay, if you people would read the article, it says that part of the reason for the delay is due to the delay in the next service pack to Windows XP that Virtual PC ships with.

[Windowlicker]

As if microsoft could give a ***** about the release date. The fact that they are trying to fix bugs before release says it all. - And any optimisation will be when exactly??

Could this project be slowed down any further. To actually buy out connectix is proof enough that they dont want any kind of comparison of window on a mac over a pc, to be available.

What a joke. - bothered

um, I don't see why MS wouldn't want the VPC out asap. MS isn't making money with hardware. They want their piece of crappy software (being Windows in this case) to be licensed in as many setups as possible. So they would only benefit of getting mac users buy VPC (with windows).

[SiliconAddict]

Weee let the anti-MS crusades begin. You guys think PC users are going to give up their software cold turkey? I have several grand invested in Windows software and there is no way I'm going to toss it into the garbage simply because a small handful of Mac zealots crap on the idea of VPC and Windows. VPC is a have your cake and eat it too app that is a key puzzle piece that needs to be in place before I even look at a Mac. Either that or someone in the audience here needs to point me to an app that is as good as MS MapPoint (http://www.microsoft.com/mappoint/2004/default.mspx). I've yet to find ANY comparable software on the Mac platform. Then I have MS Access that I must run for routine queries and having a desktop for such apps is stupid as was someone's suggestion a while ago to buy a cheap laptop. (Already have one.) Like I'm going to drag 2 dang laptops with me wherever I go. At this point people are making up far fetched down right stupid workarounds simply because of the undying hatred of Microsoft. Grow up. Microsoft won the platform wars. End of chapter but not the end of the story.

Oh and those who call PC's and Windows a PoS. My home brewed Windows 2003 server has been up 98 days without a problem as of midnight tonight (Took it down in Feb for a Norton AV upgrade) so please. Get a clue. If you are snubbing everything MS then you know NOTHING about "CURRENT" versions of Windows and don't have a leg to stand on. Or would you like me to start complaining about OS X based on OS 7 performance?

[displaced]

Sorry, if that was true vpc would have been released ages ago. For one of the biggest multinational companies not having developed this project is pathetic. They have not given it the resources because its too risky to do and there are too many conflicts at board level.

*sigh*

Ok. Mac software from Microsoft is produced by the Macintosh Business Unit. They're a pretty small team of approx. 160 people. Their resources are not particularly expansive, and don't have the benefit of being able to integrate with and re-use the work (code) of the rest of the company's developers. Bear in mind in particular that Office for Mac is not a simple port of the Windows version. It's an entirely different product which just happens to have the same name, file compatibility, and broadly similar features and workflow.

Then there's the dozen or so other MS Mac products. (http://www.mactopia.com) Remember those 160 employees are not all developers -- there'll be marketing, sales, technical writers, managers, etc. Specific to VPC, there's the issue that these workers have effectively just got their hands on a huge pile of code that they need to get to grips with. Don't underestimate how tough it is to get a proper understanding of an existing codebase that wasn't written by you or your team, and whose documentation may be at worst incomplete, and at best unfamiliar. VPC also isn't simply an app thrown together using developer-friendly Cocoa. It's very low-level stuff.

The MacBU are Macintosh users, and I'm sure they're looking to produce a good program. Please bear in mind that comments and press releases from software companies in this kind of situation tend to use catch-all phrases like 'continuing testing' and 'bug-fixing'. It's easy to moan and speculate about politics, shenanigans and other tin-foil hat stuff. I'm just trying to see things from the developer's point of view. I appreciate what the MacBU does. They might not keep to release dates... but who does? Their software may not be perfect, but I'm pretty sure the developers don't wander into work and have meetings about how best to screw their users. And do you really believe that the top brass at MS really care enough to play games and ham-string Mac development? They keep the MacBU in existence because it makes money. If a few months delay is needed to make VPC7 into a product that will sell, that's what they'll do.

If VPC disappeared, it wouldn't kill the Mac. But it'd be one less product for MS to make money from, and it would remove choice from Mac users who need its functionality. Personally, I like the sheer convenience of being able to test portable code in both envronments from a single machine. I can keep a clean Windows system in a disk file, without having the agony of maintaining a real Windows setup.

Just relax, and have a bit of understanding.

(edit - here's (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/158677_msftmac30.html) an article about the MacBU. )

[Jonnod III]

I'd rather have VPC coded by M$ than by a third party, or by Apple.

That way there are only two parties involved - Apple and M$, and not three - Apple, M$ and Connectix.

Office runs way bettter on Windows than Mac (I accept it is not just a port) M$ knows how Windows is written and makes Office work well with it.

I wouldn't be surprised if VPC runs faster under M$ than it would have done under Connectix.

And as far as developing it - it's a no brainer! M$ get to sell more copies of Windows. Hell, Adobe get 40% of their revenue from Mac users. It's an application, not an operating system - don't mix up Operating System Market Share with Application Market Share. Most Windows PCs run only Windows and either Office or M$ Works.

Oh and to all those saying 'get a PC' - can you run 95, 98, NT, 2K, and XP on that one PC at the same time?? And create a network between them? I use VPC to provide network and application support to a local company.(Yes seriously!!)

[legion]

Oh and to all those saying 'get a PC' - can you run 95, 98, NT, 2K, and XP on that one PC at the same time?? And create a network between them? I use VPC to provide network and application support to a local company.(Yes seriously!!)

Yes, with VPC for Windows (include any Linux distros with that list)

[bar italia]

you're joking right? i could care less if VPC7 was delayed,

You probably mean "couldn't care less".


To me, running Windows on my mac is kind of hypocritical, not to mention dangerous (would you leave your car unlocked with the windows rolled down and the keys in the ignition on the bad side of town with a sticky note that says "do not enter?" :D )!
whatever

[Jonnod III]

Yes, with VPC for Windows (include any Linux distros with that list)

So why get the PC then...?

[ioinc]

If the only enhancement is G5 compatibilty, we'd be better off just downloading Bochs for $30 and running it on the G5...

I tried Bochs on my G5 and it stinks. It is hard to use, and slow. The company also gives absolutly no support.

I would sooner burn the $30 it takes to buy then send it to those idiots.

If you have a need for a PC and can't wait until VPC comes out, then spend a few hundred dollars and buy and old one off eBay.

[MacBandit]

So why get the PC then...?

He's saying that the version of VPC for Windows machines can run any OS except Mac OS that you want on a PC box.

VPC is not Mac exclusive and is actually much more largely used in the PC world for emulating other OS environments then it is on the Mac.

[ClimbingTheLog]

If the only reason you want a G5 is to run VPC really fast and run PC applications...why not just buy a PC? If that's NOT all you would do with a G5, why NOT buy one this late-spring/early-summer when revB G5s arrive (hopefully)?

If I understand you correctly, "if you only run PC apps get a PC, if you run other apps, get a G5"? You exclude the entire class of users who use PC apps and Mac apps. That's most of them.

Regardless of the video performance of the next update of VPC on G5s, anyone who likes to stay in the Mac world for most apps, but still likes PC gaming a lot, ought to just have both a Mac and a PC.

You seem to be implying that the only use for a PC is games. There are lots of non-game apps without a Mac equivelant. Sad but true. VPC is a necessary evil in some fields.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Only two possible reasons that make me even give it a moments thought.

Gaming - waste of time, yes much more on the windows platform, but not a patch on a dedicated game consul, anyway VPC won't do the job whatever you have heard.

Clients who want you to use a PC - forget 'em, any client who dictates what computer you use is the type that will have you wiping their backside for them, you don't need 'em.

You forget about the class of users who need to run real business apps that are only available on Windows. There are alot of vertical market apps that fit this category.

So many people here are saying, "just go get a PC, it's cheaper". It's only cheaper if you don't have to backup that PC, don't have to buy any peripherals for that PC, don't have any hardware fail on that PC, don't pay for electricity, etc. If you're already doing that for your Mac you get it all for free on your PC with VPC.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Not to sound like a MS supporter, but the hurdles involved in getting VPC to run at any acceptable speed on a G5 are huge. As has been talked about here ad-nausium when the G5 came out (do a search) it is lacking hardware endian conversion which all prior PowerPC chips back to at least the 603 had. We're also talking about very low level, optimized machine code here. Probably the most complex application code being worked on for the Mac anywhere.

The endian conversion isn't that big a deal. Virtual PC versions 1 and 2 did just fine without support for little endian mode on PowerPC 601 and 604 machines. Sure, with the G3 VPC got faster, but it's not like this was an unknown science to the folks at Connectix. Besides, with well-written Altivec code this can be done quickly.

What really slows down the PowerPC as an emulator is having to go out to main memory for some emulated operations that are done over and over and over. I personally heard the lead emulator programmer from Connectix beg Motorola to make the G4 capable of doing this on chip; he only needed one tweaked instruction and felt it could speed up VPC by an order of magnitude, but, well, they didn't feel like it.

I wonder if the G5 has this capability; it could more than make up for any lack of endian handling.

[kingtj]

Actually, there are a number of Windows-based apps that I really need to be able to run on a Mac. I purchased my G5 with the understanding that VPC would eventually support it, and with a decent explanation in advance on why it needed some re-work to support the new processor. I never complained because I felt confident it would come out eventually.

The thing is, many of the native Windows programs I need are only applicable to a laptop computer (EG. automobile diagnostic software that interfaces with the OBDII connector under the dash of newer vehicles, and GPS mapping software such as Street Atlas USA). Right now, all the Powerbooks still have G4 processors in them, so they work fine with the existing version of VPC.

My experience has been, lots of people currently using a Windows-based PC have no real interest in buying a G5 system right now, because the price seems too high. (Same reason they're often using a relatively cheap AMD Athlon system, as opposed to a dual Xeon setup.) Even if the G5 suddenly started emulating Windows perfectly in VPC 7, with the same speed as a native PC, they'd say "That's a neat trick!", turn around, and ignore the G5 again right afterwards. People paying more for the G5 are sold on the whole OS X experience, and therefore only care in a secondary way about it having an ability to run Windows.


I'm surprised how little I need to run anything in Windows. In the last year I have needed that ZERO times other than testing a page of my creation in Windows Internet Explorer. And my whole business is creating multimedia for Windows customers. Now that Director for Mac exports Windows apps, I may never have much need of Windows again.

I must not be alone, because I'm surprised there hasn't been more vocal protest over the past year that G5s can't yet run Windows. Necessary for some of course, but I'm surprised how few people truly need it.

There really are good Mac alternatives for most people.

I still may upgrade my copy of VPC "just in case"--if the next version is good enough. MBU has done some good work in the past, after all.

[kingtj]

Yep, you're absolutely right about those pesky "vertical market apps". (Many are little more than windows and menus slapped on top of a database app like MS Access, too!)

But to the "just go get a PC, it's cheaper" argument, I have to agree. That's why I've always kept a P4 system around, no matter how much I like and use my Mac. Arguing over the "long term cost" if hardware fails is pointless, really. Hard drives cost the same for either a Mac or a PC, and they have ever since Apple started adopting IDE. Same goes for the CD-ROM drives and writers and memory chips. These days, Apple just uses a non-typical CPU and customized motherboard, all linked up to parts and technologies borrowed from the PC clone world.

I suppose you can simply claim it's cheaper to maintain one machine than two, but I'm not so sure about that. With 1 machine, you have the "all your eggs in one basket" issue with your data. If that machine goes down, you're dead in the water. With multiple computers, you gain several other advantages too - like the ability to share your Internet connection if a second person comes over and wants to check their mail, look something up, chat online, or whatnot. You're not interrupted while they type on the keyboard and use your mouse....


You forget about the class of users who need to run real business apps that are only available on Windows. There are alot of vertical market apps that fit this category.

So many people here are saying, "just go get a PC, it's cheaper". It's only cheaper if you don't have to backup that PC, don't have to buy any peripherals for that PC, don't have any hardware fail on that PC, don't pay for electricity, etc. If you're already doing that for your Mac you get it all for free on your PC with VPC.

[BlueRevolution]

I just got me a G5 a few weeks ago, upgrading from a 10-year-old PC. My latest web design had been done up all pretty in XHTML 1.0 standards-compliant code, even validated by our friend the W3C's validator (http://validator.w3.org/). So imagine my dismay when I bring it onto my nice shiny new Power Mac and the thing is all of a sudden hideous - on both Safari and IE for Mac. So that's why I'm desparately anticipating the launch of VPC - so that I can install browsers that I could get for free online and find out how my designs look. Also I need MSN for Windows - don't get me started about MSN for Mac :( . If VPC 7 actually supports decent hardware acceleration I'd like to do some gaming too of course, but mostly that's all I need it for. Couldn't I just get functionality for IE, Netscape and MSN for Windows on my Mac and forget about all this VPC crap? Please? Please?

So aside from the obvious, that's one reason why I Switched too... I need to be able to test sites on Mac browsers, something you can't do on a PC. Show me a decent Mac emulator for PC and I'll eat my mouse cord.

[MacBandit]

You can get Firefox, Mozilla, or Camino for free.


I just got me a G5 a few weeks ago, upgrading from a 10-year-old PC. My latest web design had been done up all pretty in XHTML 1.0 standards-compliant code, even validated by our friend the W3C's validator (http://validator.w3.org/). So imagine my dismay when I bring it onto my nice shiny new Power Mac and the thing is all of a sudden hideous - on both Safari and IE for Mac. So that's why I'm desparately anticipating the launch of VPC - so that I can install browsers that I could get for free online and find out how my designs look. Also I need MSN for Windows - don't get me started about MSN for Mac :( . If VPC 7 actually supports decent hardware acceleration I'd like to do some gaming too of course, but mostly that's all I need it for. Couldn't I just get functionality for IE, Netscape and MSN for Windows on my Mac and forget about all this VPC crap? Please? Please?

So aside from the obvious, that's one reason why I Switched too... I need to be able to test sites on Mac browsers, something you can't do on a PC. Show me a decent Mac emulator for PC and I'll eat my mouse cord.

[BlueRevolution]

You can get Firefox, Mozilla, or Camino for free.

Of course, and in fact I do have them - or did. Firefox and Mozilla seem to be crashing whenever I try to boot them. No, what I need is to be able to test sites on IE for Windows. And actually since that post I have found a worthy instant messenger too - Adium (http://www.adiumx.com/) . Love that program. So really all I need is to get IE for Windows since it renders pages differently from IE for Mac *sigh*.

[MacBandit]

So really all I need is to get IE for Windows since it renders pages differently from IE for Mac *sigh*.


Thank Microsoft.

Well the current version of Virtual PC should do fine for this.

[BlueRevolution]

Thank Microsoft.

Well the current version of Virtual PC should do fine for this.

of course, except for the fact that I have a G5...

[jaromski]

I highly doubt Microsoft is doing anything to subvert the Macintosh community by releasing VPC software late, or that they will can VPC development after release 7. These arguments don't hold any water upon closer scrutiny.

I mean, think about it. Microsoft makes money on 2 of its 7 divisions: Windows OS and Office. Everything else is a losing proposition, with the idea that in those emerging divisions they have to take it in the shorts initially to gain market share to one day becoming profitable.

But VPC offers Microsoft additional revenue. Simple as that. Look at the numbers...

You go buy a PC you pay about $100 for Windows XP and if you need Office you pay $350. Total cost to you the user, $450. Now if you are adamant about keeping it all on the Mac now you are paying for the Windows XP license, the Office license, AND the VPC license. Microsoft just made $130 more on you than its other PC customers. Money in their pocket, they don't have an agenda because they hate the Mac community. Microsoft is too busy making money, loads and loads of money. No sense getting any emotion tied up into the transaction, they just want your money.

Just my two cents,

JaromSki