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Virtual PC 7 Delayed
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This is wrong
Umm... the G5 does support little endian mode. There is a bit (LE) in the Machine State Register (MSR) that you can set telling the processor what endian mode to use. Unlike some other bits in the MSR, this bit is not optional. This information can be found in the book "PowerPC Microprocessor Family: Programming Environments Manual for 64 and 32-bit Microprocessors". You can find it here: http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_970_Microprocessor
This book is used for ALL PowerPC processors, even the PPC 862 I program for at work every day. This book defines what a PowerPC processor is. I have seen no documentation anywhere stating that the PPC 970 is an exception.
As far as I can tell, Microsoft is flat out lying when they say the G5 doesn't support little endian mode. You need to show me documentation that comes from IBM to convince me otherwise. This doesn't mean that Microsoft is lying about Virtual PC 6 being incompatible with the G5. There could be bugs in the G5 that effect Virtual PC that wouldn't effect normal applications. Or, there could be workarounds for G4 bugs in Virtual PC 6 that don't work on a G5. This scenerio isn't entirely impossible. I know the 862 I work with has problems that need to be worked around in software.
As for the delay, if you people would read the article, it says that part of the reason for the delay is due to the delay in the next service pack to Windows XP that Virtual PC ships with.
eric_n_dfw said:
Umm... the G5 does support little endian mode. There is a bit (LE) in the Machine State Register (MSR) that you can set telling the processor what endian mode to use. Unlike some other bits in the MSR, this bit is not optional. This information can be found in the book "PowerPC Microprocessor Family: Programming Environments Manual for 64 and 32-bit Microprocessors". You can find it here: http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_970_Microprocessor
This book is used for ALL PowerPC processors, even the PPC 862 I program for at work every day. This book defines what a PowerPC processor is. I have seen no documentation anywhere stating that the PPC 970 is an exception.
As far as I can tell, Microsoft is flat out lying when they say the G5 doesn't support little endian mode. You need to show me documentation that comes from IBM to convince me otherwise. This doesn't mean that Microsoft is lying about Virtual PC 6 being incompatible with the G5. There could be bugs in the G5 that effect Virtual PC that wouldn't effect normal applications. Or, there could be workarounds for G4 bugs in Virtual PC 6 that don't work on a G5. This scenerio isn't entirely impossible. I know the 862 I work with has problems that need to be worked around in software.
As for the delay, if you people would read the article, it says that part of the reason for the delay is due to the delay in the next service pack to Windows XP that Virtual PC ships with.
derboy said:
um, I don't see why MS wouldn't want the VPC out asap. MS isn't making money with hardware. They want their piece of crappy software (being Windows in this case) to be licensed in as many setups as possible. So they would only benefit of getting mac users buy VPC (with windows).
Weee let the anti-MS crusades begin. You guys think PC users are going to give up their software cold turkey? I have several grand invested in Windows software and there is no way I'm going to toss it into the garbage simply because a small handful of Mac zealots crap on the idea of VPC and Windows. VPC is a have your cake and eat it too app that is a key puzzle piece that needs to be in place before I even look at a Mac. Either that or someone in the audience here needs to point me to an app that is as good as MS MapPoint. I've yet to find ANY comparable software on the Mac platform. Then I have MS Access that I must run for routine queries and having a desktop for such apps is stupid as was someone's suggestion a while ago to buy a cheap laptop. (Already have one.) Like I'm going to drag 2 dang laptops with me wherever I go. At this point people are making up far fetched down right stupid workarounds simply because of the undying hatred of Microsoft. Grow up. Microsoft won the platform wars. End of chapter but not the end of the story.
Oh and those who call PC's and Windows a PoS. My home brewed Windows 2003 server has been up 98 days without a problem as of midnight tonight (Took it down in Feb for a Norton AV upgrade) so please. Get a clue. If you are snubbing everything MS then you know NOTHING about "CURRENT" versions of Windows and don't have a leg to stand on. Or would you like me to start complaining about OS X based on OS 7 performance?
Oh and those who call PC's and Windows a PoS. My home brewed Windows 2003 server has been up 98 days without a problem as of midnight tonight (Took it down in Feb for a Norton AV upgrade) so please. Get a clue. If you are snubbing everything MS then you know NOTHING about "CURRENT" versions of Windows and don't have a leg to stand on. Or would you like me to start complaining about OS X based on OS 7 performance?
derboy said:
*sigh*
Ok. Mac software from Microsoft is produced by the Macintosh Business Unit. They're a pretty small team of approx. 160 people. Their resources are not particularly expansive, and don't have the benefit of being able to integrate with and re-use the work (code) of the rest of the company's developers. Bear in mind in particular that Office for Mac is not a simple port of the Windows version. It's an entirely different product which just happens to have the same name, file compatibility, and broadly similar features and workflow.
Then there's the dozen or so other MS Mac products. Remember those 160 employees are not all developers -- there'll be marketing, sales, technical writers, managers, etc. Specific to VPC, there's the issue that these workers have effectively just got their hands on a huge pile of code that they need to get to grips with. Don't underestimate how tough it is to get a proper understanding of an existing codebase that wasn't written by you or your team, and whose documentation may be at worst incomplete, and at best unfamiliar. VPC also isn't simply an app thrown together using developer-friendly Cocoa. It's very low-level stuff.
The MacBU are Macintosh users, and I'm sure they're looking to produce a good program. Please bear in mind that comments and press releases from software companies in this kind of situation tend to use catch-all phrases like 'continuing testing' and 'bug-fixing'. It's easy to moan and speculate about politics, shenanigans and other tin-foil hat stuff. I'm just trying to see things from the developer's point of view. I appreciate what the MacBU does. They might not keep to release dates... but who does? Their software may not be perfect, but I'm pretty sure the developers don't wander into work and have meetings about how best to screw their users. And do you really believe that the top brass at MS really care enough to play games and ham-string Mac development? They keep the MacBU in existence because it makes money. If a few months delay is needed to make VPC7 into a product that will sell, that's what they'll do.
If VPC disappeared, it wouldn't kill the Mac. But it'd be one less product for MS to make money from, and it would remove choice from Mac users who need its functionality. Personally, I like the sheer convenience of being able to test portable code in both envronments from a single machine. I can keep a clean Windows system in a disk file, without having the agony of maintaining a real Windows setup.
Just relax, and have a bit of understanding.
(edit - here's an article about the MacBU. )
I'd rather have VPC coded by M$ than by a third party, or by Apple.
That way there are only two parties involved - Apple and M$, and not three - Apple, M$ and Connectix.
Office runs way bettter on Windows than Mac (I accept it is not just a port) M$ knows how Windows is written and makes Office work well with it.
I wouldn't be surprised if VPC runs faster under M$ than it would have done under Connectix.
And as far as developing it - it's a no brainer! M$ get to sell more copies of Windows. Hell, Adobe get 40% of their revenue from Mac users. It's an application, not an operating system - don't mix up Operating System Market Share with Application Market Share. Most Windows PCs run only Windows and either Office or M$ Works.
Oh and to all those saying 'get a PC' - can you run 95, 98, NT, 2K, and XP on that one PC at the same time?? And create a network between them? I use VPC to provide network and application support to a local company.(Yes seriously!!)
That way there are only two parties involved - Apple and M$, and not three - Apple, M$ and Connectix.
Office runs way bettter on Windows than Mac (I accept it is not just a port) M$ knows how Windows is written and makes Office work well with it.
I wouldn't be surprised if VPC runs faster under M$ than it would have done under Connectix.
And as far as developing it - it's a no brainer! M$ get to sell more copies of Windows. Hell, Adobe get 40% of their revenue from Mac users. It's an application, not an operating system - don't mix up Operating System Market Share with Application Market Share. Most Windows PCs run only Windows and either Office or M$ Works.
Oh and to all those saying 'get a PC' - can you run 95, 98, NT, 2K, and XP on that one PC at the same time?? And create a network between them? I use VPC to provide network and application support to a local company.(Yes seriously!!)
Calebj14 said:
You probably mean "couldn't care less".
whateverCalebj14 said:To me, running Windows on my mac is kind of hypocritical, not to mention dangerous (would you leave your car unlocked with the windows rolled down and the keys in the ignition on the bad side of town with a sticky note that says "do not enter?")!
Bochs stinks more than M$ ever could
I tried Bochs on my G5 and it stinks. It is hard to use, and slow. The company also gives absolutly no support.
I would sooner burn the $30 it takes to buy then send it to those idiots.
If you have a need for a PC and can't wait until VPC comes out, then spend a few hundred dollars and buy and old one off eBay.
GFLPraxis said:
I tried Bochs on my G5 and it stinks. It is hard to use, and slow. The company also gives absolutly no support.
I would sooner burn the $30 it takes to buy then send it to those idiots.
If you have a need for a PC and can't wait until VPC comes out, then spend a few hundred dollars and buy and old one off eBay.
Jonnod III said:
He's saying that the version of VPC for Windows machines can run any OS except Mac OS that you want on a PC box.
VPC is not Mac exclusive and is actually much more largely used in the PC world for emulating other OS environments then it is on the Mac.
JonYo said:
If I understand you correctly, "if you only run PC apps get a PC, if you run other apps, get a G5"? You exclude the entire class of users who use PC apps and Mac apps. That's most of them.
JonYo said:
You seem to be implying that the only use for a PC is games. There are lots of non-game apps without a Mac equivelant. Sad but true. VPC is a necessary evil in some fields.
Real world implications of VPC
You forget about the class of users who need to run real business apps that are only available on Windows. There are alot of vertical market apps that fit this category.
So many people here are saying, "just go get a PC, it's cheaper". It's only cheaper if you don't have to backup that PC, don't have to buy any peripherals for that PC, don't have any hardware fail on that PC, don't pay for electricity, etc. If you're already doing that for your Mac you get it all for free on your PC with VPC.
fatfish said:
You forget about the class of users who need to run real business apps that are only available on Windows. There are alot of vertical market apps that fit this category.
So many people here are saying, "just go get a PC, it's cheaper". It's only cheaper if you don't have to backup that PC, don't have to buy any peripherals for that PC, don't have any hardware fail on that PC, don't pay for electricity, etc. If you're already doing that for your Mac you get it all for free on your PC with VPC.
Little-Endian mode not such a big deal
The endian conversion isn't that big a deal. Virtual PC versions 1 and 2 did just fine without support for little endian mode on PowerPC 601 and 604 machines. Sure, with the G3 VPC got faster, but it's not like this was an unknown science to the folks at Connectix. Besides, with well-written Altivec code this can be done quickly.
What really slows down the PowerPC as an emulator is having to go out to main memory for some emulated operations that are done over and over and over. I personally heard the lead emulator programmer from Connectix beg Motorola to make the G4 capable of doing this on chip; he only needed one tweaked instruction and felt it could speed up VPC by an order of magnitude, but, well, they didn't feel like it.
I wonder if the G5 has this capability; it could more than make up for any lack of endian handling.
eric_n_dfw said:
The endian conversion isn't that big a deal. Virtual PC versions 1 and 2 did just fine without support for little endian mode on PowerPC 601 and 604 machines. Sure, with the G3 VPC got faster, but it's not like this was an unknown science to the folks at Connectix. Besides, with well-written Altivec code this can be done quickly.
What really slows down the PowerPC as an emulator is having to go out to main memory for some emulated operations that are done over and over and over. I personally heard the lead emulator programmer from Connectix beg Motorola to make the G4 capable of doing this on chip; he only needed one tweaked instruction and felt it could speed up VPC by an order of magnitude, but, well, they didn't feel like it.
I wonder if the G5 has this capability; it could more than make up for any lack of endian handling.
G5 purchases and need for VPC
Actually, there are a number of Windows-based apps that I really need to be able to run on a Mac. I purchased my G5 with the understanding that VPC would eventually support it, and with a decent explanation in advance on why it needed some re-work to support the new processor. I never complained because I felt confident it would come out eventually.
The thing is, many of the native Windows programs I need are only applicable to a laptop computer (EG. automobile diagnostic software that interfaces with the OBDII connector under the dash of newer vehicles, and GPS mapping software such as Street Atlas USA). Right now, all the Powerbooks still have G4 processors in them, so they work fine with the existing version of VPC.
My experience has been, lots of people currently using a Windows-based PC have no real interest in buying a G5 system right now, because the price seems too high. (Same reason they're often using a relatively cheap AMD Athlon system, as opposed to a dual Xeon setup.) Even if the G5 suddenly started emulating Windows perfectly in VPC 7, with the same speed as a native PC, they'd say "That's a neat trick!", turn around, and ignore the G5 again right afterwards. People paying more for the G5 are sold on the whole OS X experience, and therefore only care in a secondary way about it having an ability to run Windows.
Actually, there are a number of Windows-based apps that I really need to be able to run on a Mac. I purchased my G5 with the understanding that VPC would eventually support it, and with a decent explanation in advance on why it needed some re-work to support the new processor. I never complained because I felt confident it would come out eventually.
The thing is, many of the native Windows programs I need are only applicable to a laptop computer (EG. automobile diagnostic software that interfaces with the OBDII connector under the dash of newer vehicles, and GPS mapping software such as Street Atlas USA). Right now, all the Powerbooks still have G4 processors in them, so they work fine with the existing version of VPC.
My experience has been, lots of people currently using a Windows-based PC have no real interest in buying a G5 system right now, because the price seems too high. (Same reason they're often using a relatively cheap AMD Athlon system, as opposed to a dual Xeon setup.) Even if the G5 suddenly started emulating Windows perfectly in VPC 7, with the same speed as a native PC, they'd say "That's a neat trick!", turn around, and ignore the G5 again right afterwards. People paying more for the G5 are sold on the whole OS X experience, and therefore only care in a secondary way about it having an ability to run Windows.
nagromme said:
PC being cheaper?
Yep, you're absolutely right about those pesky "vertical market apps". (Many are little more than windows and menus slapped on top of a database app like MS Access, too!)
But to the "just go get a PC, it's cheaper" argument, I have to agree. That's why I've always kept a P4 system around, no matter how much I like and use my Mac. Arguing over the "long term cost" if hardware fails is pointless, really. Hard drives cost the same for either a Mac or a PC, and they have ever since Apple started adopting IDE. Same goes for the CD-ROM drives and writers and memory chips. These days, Apple just uses a non-typical CPU and customized motherboard, all linked up to parts and technologies borrowed from the PC clone world.
I suppose you can simply claim it's cheaper to maintain one machine than two, but I'm not so sure about that. With 1 machine, you have the "all your eggs in one basket" issue with your data. If that machine goes down, you're dead in the water. With multiple computers, you gain several other advantages too - like the ability to share your Internet connection if a second person comes over and wants to check their mail, look something up, chat online, or whatnot. You're not interrupted while they type on the keyboard and use your mouse....
Yep, you're absolutely right about those pesky "vertical market apps". (Many are little more than windows and menus slapped on top of a database app like MS Access, too!)
But to the "just go get a PC, it's cheaper" argument, I have to agree. That's why I've always kept a P4 system around, no matter how much I like and use my Mac. Arguing over the "long term cost" if hardware fails is pointless, really. Hard drives cost the same for either a Mac or a PC, and they have ever since Apple started adopting IDE. Same goes for the CD-ROM drives and writers and memory chips. These days, Apple just uses a non-typical CPU and customized motherboard, all linked up to parts and technologies borrowed from the PC clone world.
I suppose you can simply claim it's cheaper to maintain one machine than two, but I'm not so sure about that. With 1 machine, you have the "all your eggs in one basket" issue with your data. If that machine goes down, you're dead in the water. With multiple computers, you gain several other advantages too - like the ability to share your Internet connection if a second person comes over and wants to check their mail, look something up, chat online, or whatnot. You're not interrupted while they type on the keyboard and use your mouse....
ClimbingTheLog said:
I just got me a G5 a few weeks ago, upgrading from a 10-year-old PC. My latest web design had been done up all pretty in XHTML 1.0 standards-compliant code, even validated by our friend the W3C's validator. So imagine my dismay when I bring it onto my nice shiny new Power Mac and the thing is all of a sudden hideous - on both Safari and IE for Mac. So that's why I'm desparately anticipating the launch of VPC - so that I can install browsers that I could get for free online and find out how my designs look. Also I need MSN for Windows - don't get me started about MSN for Mac . If VPC 7 actually supports decent hardware acceleration I'd like to do some gaming too of course, but mostly that's all I need it for. Couldn't I just get functionality for IE, Netscape and MSN for Windows on my Mac and forget about all this VPC crap? Please? Please?
So aside from the obvious, that's one reason why I Switched too... I need to be able to test sites on Mac browsers, something you can't do on a PC. Show me a decent Mac emulator for PC and I'll eat my mouse cord.
. If VPC 7 actually supports decent hardware acceleration I'd like to do some gaming too of course, but mostly that's all I need it for. Couldn't I just get functionality for IE, Netscape and MSN for Windows on my Mac and forget about all this VPC crap? Please? Please?So aside from the obvious, that's one reason why I Switched too... I need to be able to test sites on Mac browsers, something you can't do on a PC. Show me a decent Mac emulator for PC and I'll eat my mouse cord.
You can get Firefox, Mozilla, or Camino for free.
BlueRevolution said:I just got me a G5 a few weeks ago, upgrading from a 10-year-old PC. My latest web design had been done up all pretty in XHTML 1.0 standards-compliant code, even validated by our friend the W3C's validator. So imagine my dismay when I bring it onto my nice shiny new Power Mac and the thing is all of a sudden hideous - on both Safari and IE for Mac. So that's why I'm desparately anticipating the launch of VPC - so that I can install browsers that I could get for free online and find out how my designs look. Also I need MSN for Windows - don't get me started about MSN for Mac
So aside from the obvious, that's one reason why I Switched too... I need to be able to test sites on Mac browsers, something you can't do on a PC. Show me a decent Mac emulator for PC and I'll eat my mouse cord.
MacBandit said:
Of course, and in fact I do have them - or did. Firefox and Mozilla seem to be crashing whenever I try to boot them. No, what I need is to be able to test sites on IE for Windows. And actually since that post I have found a worthy instant messenger too - Adium . Love that program. So really all I need is to get IE for Windows since it renders pages differently from IE for Mac *sigh*.
BlueRevolution said:
Thank Microsoft.
Well the current version of Virtual PC should do fine for this.
no MS conspiracy, think revenues!
I highly doubt Microsoft is doing anything to subvert the Macintosh community by releasing VPC software late, or that they will can VPC development after release 7. These arguments don't hold any water upon closer scrutiny.
I mean, think about it. Microsoft makes money on 2 of its 7 divisions: Windows OS and Office. Everything else is a losing proposition, with the idea that in those emerging divisions they have to take it in the shorts initially to gain market share to one day becoming profitable.
But VPC offers Microsoft additional revenue. Simple as that. Look at the numbers...
You go buy a PC you pay about $100 for Windows XP and if you need Office you pay $350. Total cost to you the user, $450. Now if you are adamant about keeping it all on the Mac now you are paying for the Windows XP license, the Office license, AND the VPC license. Microsoft just made $130 more on you than its other PC customers. Money in their pocket, they don't have an agenda because they hate the Mac community. Microsoft is too busy making money, loads and loads of money. No sense getting any emotion tied up into the transaction, they just want your money.
Just my two cents,
JaromSki
I highly doubt Microsoft is doing anything to subvert the Macintosh community by releasing VPC software late, or that they will can VPC development after release 7. These arguments don't hold any water upon closer scrutiny.
I mean, think about it. Microsoft makes money on 2 of its 7 divisions: Windows OS and Office. Everything else is a losing proposition, with the idea that in those emerging divisions they have to take it in the shorts initially to gain market share to one day becoming profitable.
But VPC offers Microsoft additional revenue. Simple as that. Look at the numbers...
You go buy a PC you pay about $100 for Windows XP and if you need Office you pay $350. Total cost to you the user, $450. Now if you are adamant about keeping it all on the Mac now you are paying for the Windows XP license, the Office license, AND the VPC license. Microsoft just made $130 more on you than its other PC customers. Money in their pocket, they don't have an agenda because they hate the Mac community. Microsoft is too busy making money, loads and loads of money. No sense getting any emotion tied up into the transaction, they just want your money.
Just my two cents,
JaromSki