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MacRumors
Jun 3, 2004, 02:37 PM
ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/toshiba.html) that Apple is upset with Toshiba for revealing that their new 60GB 1.8" drive will be used by Apple in upcoming iPods in July-August.
"Apple is trying to get answers from Toshiba, but it appears they are just as in the dark as to what happened. Apple is not happy."

This information was released in an IDG news article (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040602093211.shtml) on Wednesday.

J-mac
Jun 3, 2004, 02:40 PM
I can understand. I know that I will probably wait to buy mine now. Things like this can hurt sales.

yossele
Jun 3, 2004, 02:40 PM
I really feel sorry for Apple.

deepkid
Jun 3, 2004, 02:41 PM
The quote just seemed unbelievable. Anyone that's done business with Apple would know better.

As it was said in other reports around the web about this, perhaps it was said off-record, paraphrased or assumed since it's believed that Toshiba already provides drives for the big pod.

Veldek
Jun 3, 2004, 02:43 PM
Hehe, I can really imagine Steve Jobs sitting in his office throwing something through the room, because one of his secrets was revealed.

Honestly, why is Apple this secretive? Even if Toshiba didn't say that the harddisks were for Apple, everyone would have guessed so and it's not like we don't buy anymore, because there might be a 60GB in the future, because a size bump has been quite probable.

But Apple's anger points to a release that is quite a bit away.

iriejedi
Jun 3, 2004, 02:44 PM
Did we really need a quate from Toshiba to guess that these would find their way into an iPod? I would have just figured that out all by myself.

But Toshiba can relax now - after posting the new G5 photos (if real - we will know when they get pulled by Apple)... Apple Insider can take away some of the heat!


I can understand. I know that I will probably wait to buy mine now. Things like this can hurt sales.

musicpyrite
Jun 3, 2004, 02:45 PM
This sucks, I hope it doesn't hurt Toshiba's relaionship with Apple, I don't want to pay $350 for a mini.

SeaFox
Jun 3, 2004, 02:45 PM
Oh grow up, Apple!

It's not like it was some big secret you were going to update the iPod in the Fall. What does this reveal about the new iPod? It has a larger capacity than current models? Wow! What a revelation! Boy, Toshiba just blew that secret right out of the hat!

I mean, I though they might get better battery life, and there's those rumblings about photo display on a TV, but higher capacities???? NO!

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 3, 2004, 02:47 PM
Apple acts like a big spoiled baby. its about time they stopped playing spy vs spy and start making better products. serves them right. Are they a computer company or a security agency???

stcanard
Jun 3, 2004, 02:56 PM
Apple acts like a big spoiled baby. its about time they stopped playing spy vs spy and start making better products. serves them right. Are they a computer company or a security agency???

1) I assume Apple has a confidentiality agreement with Toshiba. If so, this isn't just someone in a bad mood griping, but a breach of contract.

2) With everybody and their Uncle Microsoft gunning for the iPod right now, it's not reassuring to have other companies blabbing details about upcoming products to the press. What's next, Samsung releasing their new mini-colour LCD "as used in the upcoming video iPod <oops, was that my outside voice>"?

This might be harmless, but it shows a weakness in the chain. What if Apple was planning to go with Hitachi drives, and the Toshiba announcement is premature? Will the (stock) market react negatively if they think Apple changed it's mind because of a leaked release?

A contract breach is serious stuff.

Stevp1
Jun 3, 2004, 02:57 PM
Well, I just bought a 15GB, but I'm not sad about it. That'll be more than I'll ever need anyway. I decided not to wait. :D

deepkid
Jun 3, 2004, 02:57 PM
Did we really need a quate from Toshiba to guess that these would find their way into an iPod? I would have just figured that out all by myself.

Nope. Most of the rumors these days are about evolutionary things. One would assume that as technology progresses and allows for larger capacity in an existing or smaller form, it would be implemented. However, affirmation of that larger capacity too far ahead of Apple's release plans could possibly hurt sales.

You'd have to wonder how many consumers outside of us rumor geeks really know or care about this. I'd think the universe of potential customers who are oblivious to rumors for iPods and other gadgets is larger than the computer hardware/software universe. There's crossover, but it would seem like there are more non-computer geek types picking up interest in the iPod family.

So maybe no true harm done and they're still drooling over minis.

I can remember when I got my first gen pod in Nov '01. During my commute (which goes down Michigan Avenue in downtown Chicago), there were hardly any pods to spot. This went on for maybe a year and a half and then you'd start to see a few here and there. We'd nod at one another and smile.

Now just about everywhere you turn, you'll spot a regular pod or a mini, which is cool. I definitely believe that Apple's Michigan Avenue Store was one of the smartest marketing strategies the company's implemented in this region.

alset
Jun 3, 2004, 02:58 PM
Reminds me of the flat panel iMacs appearing on the Time Canada web page before Macworld Expo. Steve was noticeably irritated when he made the announcement the next day.

Dan

edit: I believe that same thing also happened with ATI, right?

SiliconAddict
Jun 3, 2004, 03:05 PM
Oh grow up, Apple!


Amen. Its not like anyone who is on these boards didn't know that Apple wouldn't upgrade the iPod anyways and would end up waiting anyways and for those who don't pay attention to these boards and the news they are going to simply go and buy an Ipod anyways. Hurt sales? Not likely more like hurt ego. Hey Jobs! Grow the heck up! He is just pissed that he isn't going to be the one to make the announcement at WWDC. BOO HOO. :rolleyes:

Koodauw
Jun 3, 2004, 03:05 PM
Oh grow up, Apple!

It's not like it was some big secret you were going to update the iPod in the Fall. What does this reveal about the new iPod? It has a larger capacity than current models? Wow! What a revelation! Boy, Toshiba just blew that secret right out of the hat!

I mean, I though they might get better battery life, and there's those rumblings about photo display on a TV, but higher capacities???? NO!



Teehehe, I would have to agree. I mean its not really that big of a deal. Almost anyone who reads this info, already knows that Toshiba just anounced the 60 gig HD, and that it would prob find its way into the iPod sometime soon. People were either going to wait for it, or say screw it 60 gigs is too much, and buy one now. It doesn't change much.

sockgap
Jun 3, 2004, 03:06 PM
Toshiba have other clients for their drives and have every right to announce publically that they have a 60gb drive coming.
Once that cat is out of the bag it is blatantly obvious that 60gb iPods are not far away, so I don't see that they gave away any of Apple's secrets.

Hemingray
Jun 3, 2004, 03:07 PM
Oh grow up, Apple!

Ditto. Big freakin' deal. It was inevitable that there would be bigger HD's, and we're supposed to think Apple wouldn't be putting them in the iPod? Please... :rolleyes:

mgargan1
Jun 3, 2004, 03:15 PM
This sucks, I hope it doesn't hurt Toshiba's relaionship with Apple, I don't want to pay $350 for a mini.

actually, apple gets their ipod mini harddrives from hitachi, not toshiba...

Laslo Panaflex
Jun 3, 2004, 03:18 PM
Well, it might be a big deal if apple doesn't plan on using it in a new iPod but rather a NEWTON running OS X. Newton running OS X here I come.

deepkid
Jun 3, 2004, 03:18 PM
1) I assume Apple has a confidentiality agreement with Toshiba. If so, this isn't just someone in a bad mood griping, but a breach of contract.

2) With everybody and their Uncle Microsoft gunning for the iPod right now, it's not reassuring to have other companies blabbing details about upcoming products to the press. What's next, Samsung releasing their new mini-colour LCD "as used in the upcoming video iPod <oops, was that my outside voice>"?

This might be harmless, but it shows a weakness in the chain. What if Apple was planning to go with Hitachi drives, and the Toshiba announcement is premature? Will the (stock) market react negatively if they think Apple changed it's mind because of a leaked release?

A contract breach is serious stuff.

That's a great business perspective and I would agree. As a stockholder, the last thing you'd want to see is Apple having to address pent up demand for regular iPods because customers were waiting for larger drives that haven't been released yet. That, in addition to the company struggling to meet the global iPod mini demand wouldn't be pretty.

It's definitely not about Apple being secretive just for the sake of being secretive. It's a required practice for a company that's perceived as a perpetual underdog in the technology arena. Apple needs all of the leverage that it can get to beat away its competitors.

avus
Jun 3, 2004, 03:19 PM
Apple isn't running around and screaming that they aren't happy. People here are accusing how immature Apple is, based on a rumor. I wonder who are immature here, really.

Tulse
Jun 3, 2004, 03:19 PM
actually, apple gets their ipod mini harddrives from hitachi, not toshiba...
And may soon be getting their regular iPod drives from Hitachi as well...

iggyb
Jun 3, 2004, 03:20 PM
Hurt sales indeed. What a crock. You think that Toshiba announces a microdrive that's currently used in the iPods, but with a 60GB capacity, and nobody can figure out that Apple is going to use them in the next revisions of the iPod? HA!

Steve is just upset to not get the spotlight on this. Anybody with a brain can figure out that Apple would be buying these new drives.

It's just more crap about keeping everything so secret. Yeah, those G5s are just flying out the door, because you haven't announced an upgrade. What a joke.

Get over it, Apple.

machan
Jun 3, 2004, 03:22 PM
WHOA, WE NEVER THOUGHT THE HARD DRIVE WOULD GET BIGGER!!!!! OMG MY HEART CAN'T TAKE THAT KIND OF SURPRISE!!!!! :)




ahem.

This is such a silly story that I can't help but roll my eyes. Are Apple and Toshiba two teenage girls having a spat or something now?

virividox
Jun 3, 2004, 03:23 PM
well this means for ppl who follow rumors the ipod sales may be affected because people will hold off; but most people dont research it

but apple has always been secretive i think their suppliers should get witht he program and keep tight lipped when they can

stcanard
Jun 3, 2004, 03:30 PM
You'd have to wonder how many consumers outside of us rumor geeks really know or care about this. I'd think the universe of potential customers who are oblivious to rumors for iPods and other gadgets is larger than the computer hardware/software universe. There's crossover, but it would seem like there are more non-computer geek types picking up interest in the iPod family.

That's exactly the point. We geeks that read these sites know that new, bigger iPods are probably coming in September. But 99% of the populace has no idea, and will happily buy an iPod this month.

But, if the tech section on CNN has a headline like "Toshiba announces 60GB drive to be put in new iPods", (because, let's face it, iPods are big news these days) that other 99% is going to figure it out and stop buying iPods.

It's not going to happen here, but there are companies that have gone bankrupt because they prematurely announced an upgrade, and sales of their current model tanked while customers waited. Keeping things under wraps is simply good business.

SilentPanda
Jun 3, 2004, 03:35 PM
Apple has to do this of course. What if Apple starts using Toshiba's "super nifty neural implant brainwave transducer device" and Toshiba let's the public know? They could always just say, "Well you've never cared when we've said something before." Yes "we" all know that Apple will use this 60 gig drive and most intelligent folk are going to know that the iPods will just keep getting bigger and bigger. For all we know Toshiba spilled only "half" the beans and really meant video iPod (yeah I doubt it too but who knows). You have to silence things at some point. Your sales will hurt. Most magazines won't publish rumors (or at least try not to). But if magazines and such start saying something about Apple's soon to be released 60 gig iPod in July-August and nobody buys iPods now then they'll have extra demand when they are released (which is good but can be hard to fill) and if for some reason they can't even release 1 60 gig iPod then then Apple looks like a bad guy to everybody.

Yes... we all are pretty sure Apple will have a 60 gig iPod pretty soon... but if they never do we really can't complain too much because they've never said they would. But if other companies start saying, "Yeah Apple is coming out with <insert iThing here>" and Apple can't produce then their reputation goes down regardless.

JOD8FY
Jun 3, 2004, 03:37 PM
Apple is not happy.

Am I the only one who finds that phrase funny? :D I don't know why, but that one got me. :)

Anyway, I think Apple has a right to be unhappy. Toshiba shouldn't go blabbing about what Apple is going to do. I know, it was very obvious that there would be updates to the HD and possibly to 60GB, but this breaches Apple's "Covert Operation" Code 9076 :D .

Cheers,
JOD8FY

Tulse
Jun 3, 2004, 03:39 PM
If you can't trust a supplier to abide by its contractually-obligated secrecy in minor issues, why should you trust them with more vital information?

Sorry -- it may seem like a little thing, but Toshiba (or at least one of its employees) is in breach of a secrecy clause with a company known to be fanatical for its secrecy. I pity the poor sod who spoke out of turn -- they may have jeopardized a multi-million dollar contract for their company.

Sabbath
Jun 3, 2004, 03:40 PM
I think part of difference is this story has gone beyond rumor sites, click. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3772557.stm) To people who may have been considering buying and not known how long the various models have been around.

iggyb
Jun 3, 2004, 03:42 PM
Apple has to do this of course. What if Apple starts using Toshiba's "super nifty neural implant brainwave transducer device" and Toshiba let's the public know? They could always just say, "Well you've never cared when we've said something before." Yes "we" all know that Apple will use this 60 gig drive and most intelligent folk are going to know that the iPods will just keep getting bigger and bigger. For all we know Toshiba spilled only "half" the beans and really meant video iPod (yeah I doubt it too but who knows). You have to silence things at some point. Your sales will hurt. Most magazines won't publish rumors (or at least try not to). But if magazines and such start saying something about Apple's soon to be released 60 gig iPod in July-August and nobody buys iPods now then they'll have extra demand when they are released (which is good but can be hard to fill) and if for some reason they can't even release 1 60 gig iPod then then Apple looks like a bad guy to everybody.

Yes... we all are pretty sure Apple will have a 60 gig iPod pretty soon... but if they never do we really can't complain too much because they've never said they would. But if other companies start saying, "Yeah Apple is coming out with <insert iThing here>" and Apple can't produce then their reputation goes down regardless.

Toshiba never said what Apple was going to do with the drives.

Good points, but I still think Apple is overreacting on this one.

If Apple doesn't release a 60GB iPod, then YES WE CAN COMPLAIN. Once the announcement of the drive is made, Apple will be expected to create this. Wall Street would expect nothing less.

Sir_Giggles
Jun 3, 2004, 04:04 PM
I can understand. I know that I will probably wait to buy mine now. Things like this can hurt sales.

That is incorrect. It does not hurt sales because you will buy an iPod anyways. You are just delaying your purchase, which means you are just delaying buying your next one. What it does hurt are the surplus of old iPods that can't be moved as everyone is waiting for the new iPods.

SiliconAddict
Jun 3, 2004, 04:06 PM
well this means for ppl who follow rumors the ipod sales may be affected because people will hold off; but most people dont research it

but apple has always been secretive i think their suppliers should get witht he program and keep tight lipped when they can


OK. The Macrumors site announced a new hard drive size. Unless the people that frequent macrumors are morons they can do the math. Toshiba didn't need to say a word.

As for hurt sales. Ya for what? 2 weeks? Its a good bet Apple was going to announce these at WWDC. :rolleyes: So it would have hurt sales anyways. Apple as it stands can't keep up with orders so who cares? This is Jobs's Ego. Pure and simple.

Photorun
Jun 3, 2004, 04:07 PM
I third, or sixth, or whatever everyone here about Apple/Jobs and his stupid super secret spy BS. So what, Toshiba is making larger hard drives, like we thought they'd stay at 40 GB forever? I mean, give me a break. And how the hell would this hurt sales? Like someone who was in the market for a BIGGER iPod capacity would go "that's it, if Apple had gee whiz wowwee surprised me I'd have bought one but now that I know in advance I'm going to go buy a sh***y Dull Jukebox!" Whatever people, stop sticking up for Apple when they do dumarse childish crap!

Frobozz
Jun 3, 2004, 04:13 PM
ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/toshiba.html) that Apple is upset with Toshiba for revealing that their new 60GB 1.8" drive will be used by Apple in upcoming iPods in July-August.


This information was released in an IDG news article (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040602093211.shtml) on Wednesday.

EARTH TO APPLE: No one cares except you. Waiting to announce products until the last minute is only to boost Job's ego, not help the bottom line.

socbyset
Jun 3, 2004, 04:16 PM
I think Apple is justified being angry. Not that it's a big deal or anything, but they should be able to expect their own suppliers not to blab to the press about Apple's upcoming products.

I mean you don't want your suppliers deciding on their own, "oh this isn't that important, everybody can guess it anyway, so we will just announce this to the press in contravention of our clients wishes.."

Also Apple likes their product introductions to have some pizzaz, they don't want people to say "big deal, i already read about that in infoworld a month ago." Again, not that some of us couldn't have guessed, but still.

p.s. I'm not just blindly sticking up for Apple.. in fact I think they do stupid crap all the time! I just agree with them this time.

sonorsven
Jun 3, 2004, 04:18 PM
I think a lot of people on this board are missing the point. This story was not only mentioned on this board of macoholics who have already guessed that iPod would increase its capacity in the future. It was mentioned on many sites across the internet (such as ipodlounge.com, google news, zdnet, countless popular 'blogs' around the world, even the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3772557.stm) !) where people who are new to iPods and are considering purchasing an iPod go. A google search of "ipod 60GB" brings 117,000 matching sites. It's hard to believe, but there are still people who are considering purchasing music players that don't know what an iPod is. When they search and find out about the iPod, but learn that Apple is going to bump the size to 60GB, they'll hold off there purchase which hurts apple sales. I can completely understand Apple being mad at Toshiba.

You have to look outside your own perspective on the issue, and look towards what probably most people think. (How's that for a political theory statement!) Most people don't follow apple obsessively like users on this message board. Overall, this came as surprising new information to people. Thousands if not millions of people.

quagmire
Jun 3, 2004, 04:19 PM
That is incorrect. It does not hurt sales because you will buy an iPod anyways. You are just delaying your purchase, which means you are just delaying buying your next one. What it does hurt are the surplus of old iPods that can't be moved as everyone is waiting for the new iPods.

If apple was doing badly with the ipod this will be a sales hurter. That means everyone will be waiting 3-5 months for the next ipod. Which also means no current sales for the ipod, which means no money going to apple, which means apple is forced to shut down the ipod project :( . But, luckly apple can recover from this since the ipod is doing so well and will have enough money to hold the ipod project open :D

JGowan
Jun 3, 2004, 04:34 PM
Hehe, ... Honestly, why is Apple this secretive? Even if Toshiba didn't say that the harddisks were for Apple, everyone would have guessed so and it's not like we don't buy anymore, because there might be a 60GB in the future, because a size bump has been quite probable.If you were drooling for an IPOD and was close to plunking down $499 for a 40GB any day now, but then found out that by waiting only a few months, you could score a 60GB unit for the same unit, wouldn't you WAIT?!

If you're asking "Honestly", I have to ask it, too: how can you HONESTLY be so dim-witted? This is going cut majorly into IPOD SUMMER SALES. You can't see that? Honestly? :confused:

SiliconAddict
Jun 3, 2004, 04:34 PM
I pity the poor sod who spoke out of turn -- they may have jeopardized a multi-million dollar contract for their company.

Doubtful. Tosh is the only company that has a 60GB 1.8" drive, for now, and if Apple screws its consumers over simply because they are throwing a temper tantrum.... Screw Apple, screw the Mac, and screw the iPod. I WILL NOT give my patronage to any company that thinks they are more important then their customers.

SiliconAddict
Jun 3, 2004, 04:36 PM
If you were drooling for an IPOD and was close to plunking down $499 for a 40GB any day now, but then found out that by waiting only a few months, you could score a 60GB unit for the same unit, wouldn't you WAIT?!

If you're asking "Honestly", I have to ask it, too: how can you HONESTLY be so dim-witted? This is going cut majorly into IPOD SUMMER SALES. You can't see that? Honestly? :confused:

BS. Apple is prob going to announce the upgrade at WWDC which is weeks away. How would that be any diff then Tosh slipping up?

JGowan
Jun 3, 2004, 04:42 PM
What if Apple didn't want to go STRAIGHT to a 60GB model? What if they wanted Toshiba to keep their big mouth shut about the existance of a 60GB model so they could release a 50GB unit and customers wouldn't feel cheated about losing the the other 10GB? Or simply pass the 50GB model up entirely and wait 6 more months for the bigger drive?

This could also negatively impact Apple stock. The people here who are are gleefully enjoying this (pc trolls) or those who don't "get it" aren't really considering this as an opportunity to lose out on millions that would've been theirs if someone would've just keep his mouth shut over at Toshiba.

Fukui
Jun 3, 2004, 04:47 PM
As for hurt sales. Ya for what? 2 weeks? Its a good bet Apple was going to announce these at WWDC.
What do iPods have to do with a developers conference?

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 3, 2004, 04:53 PM
Apple acts like a big spoiled baby. its about time they stopped playing spy vs spy and start making better products. serves them right. Are they a computer company or a security agency???

Like it was any secret that 60GB HDD's were coming....

afields
Jun 3, 2004, 04:58 PM
I echo other people sentiments. I really don't see the big deal here. It would be one thing if Toshiba leak specific details regarding ipod features. Obviously, it's a given they would upgrade the hard drive. As for hurting sales, really, aren't the 15-20 gigs more popular than the 40 anyway? Seems to me it wouldn't hurt sales that much.

legion
Jun 3, 2004, 05:22 PM
This sucks, I hope it doesn't hurt Toshiba's relaionship with Apple, I don't want to pay $350 for a mini.

Mini drives come from Hitachii (HGST) not Toshiba

jcshas
Jun 3, 2004, 05:33 PM
C'mon Steve get over it! What, a crushing blow to Steve's fragile ego? Larger capacity iPods we're/are imminent - How stupid to they think we are?

iChan
Jun 3, 2004, 05:39 PM
i didn't even know that toshiba and apple never offically announced the fact that toshiba were in fact supplying apple with the ipod drives.

it's been common knowledge around these parts for a while right?

JGowan
Jun 3, 2004, 05:39 PM
I must revisit this thought...

What if Apple didn't want to go STRAIGHT to a 60GB model? What if they wanted Toshiba to keep their big mouth shut about the existance of a 60GB model so they could release a 50GB unit and customers wouldn't feel cheated about losing the the other 10GB? Or simply pass the 50GB model up entirely and wait 6 more months for the bigger drive?

iChan
Jun 3, 2004, 05:42 PM
I must revisit this thought...

What if Apple didn't want to go STRAIGHT to a 60GB model? What if they wanted Toshiba to keep their big mouth shut about the existance of a 60GB model so they could release a 50GB unit and customers wouldn't feel cheated about losing the the other 10GB? Or simply pass the 50GB model up entirely and wait 6 more months for the bigger drive?

apple doesn't decide what toshiba announce regarding their own products. if toshiba wants to announce that they are working on skipping 61GB-119GB drive in the 1.8" form factor altogether and go straight to 120GB drives, there is precious little apple could do about it.

The problem lies in the fact that toshiba leaked the fact that they were supplying apple with the drives.

JohnnyFirpo
Jun 3, 2004, 05:46 PM
I think Apple doesn't have such a choice as it had in the ATi case. So they can go on boohooing in Cupertino but it won't help undoing what has happened. Most of the people want more and exciting features, new functionality from the iPod, not just a bigger disk version. Same with competitors: if some (MS) wants to make an iPod killer, how many HD maker can the choose from? 1? 2? Come on! This is not really a secret.

stcanard
Jun 3, 2004, 05:47 PM
OK. The Macrumors site announced a new hard drive size. Unless the people that frequent macrumors are morons they can do the math. Toshiba didn't need to say a word.

Again, the problem isn't the people that read macrumors. The problem is that it hit the front page of the Globe and Mail. The people that read this site know it's coming. Most of the people that read the Globe didn't until Toshiba violated a confidentiality contract (and remember, that is still the bigger issue).

As for hurt sales. Ya for what? 2 weeks? Its a good bet Apple was going to announce these at WWDC. :rolleyes: So it would have hurt sales anyways. Apple as it stands can't keep up with orders so who cares? This is Jobs's Ego. Pure and simple.

It I do my math right, it has the potential to affect sales for quarter. Which means it has the potential to change the sales trend on a quaterly financial report. For a company that can have serious implicatiions.

pjkelnhofer
Jun 3, 2004, 05:59 PM
This sucks, I hope it doesn't hurt Toshiba's relaionship with Apple, I don't want to pay $350 for a mini.

I believe Hitachi makes the drives in the mini.

Abstract
Jun 3, 2004, 06:02 PM
That's a great business perspective and I would agree. As a stockholder, the last thing you'd want to see is Apple having to address pent up demand for regular iPods because customers were waiting for larger drives that haven't been released yet. That, in addition to the company struggling to meet the global iPod mini demand wouldn't be pretty.

It's definitely not about Apple being secretive just for the sake of being secretive. It's a required practice for a company that's perceived as a perpetual underdog in the technology arena. Apple needs all of the leverage that it can get to beat away its competitors.

Firstly, anybody who read the news would have added figured it out. Secondly, the media would have mentioned something about future iPods possibly getting these drives. Its safe to for the media to give such a presumption. More people will read the news concerning a new iPod size coming out rather than a news announcement from Toshiba. Unless you're a big geek, you wouldn't have read it. Only a very small number of people at boards like this read that news, or care. Regular people don't give a hoot and are looking at the iPod, like always. If they read a news story regarding an iPod, it may probably mention the new Toshiba drives coming out latee, anyway. Not a big deal.

clonenode
Jun 3, 2004, 06:10 PM
This is too funny. Everyone is commenting on a RUMOR about Apple's reaction to what WAS only a rumor. We know nothing for sure except what Toshiba revealed. Agree or not, they should not have done it and Apple has every right to be angry.

yoda13
Jun 3, 2004, 06:13 PM
Oops! I'll bet Steve is really pissed :D

Squire
Jun 3, 2004, 06:29 PM
1) I assume Apple has a confidentiality agreement with Toshiba. If so, this isn't just someone in a bad mood griping, but a breach of contract.

2) With everybody and their Uncle Microsoft gunning for the iPod right now, it's not reassuring to have other companies blabbing details about upcoming products to the press. What's next, Samsung releasing their new mini-colour LCD "as used in the upcoming video iPod <oops, was that my outside voice>"?

This might be harmless, but it shows a weakness in the chain. What if Apple was planning to go with Hitachi drives, and the Toshiba announcement is premature? Will the (stock) market react negatively if they think Apple changed it's mind because of a leaked release?

A contract breach is serious stuff.

Very good points.

I wonder if they will/can change their minds.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040107130418.shtml

Squire

pjkelnhofer
Jun 3, 2004, 06:32 PM
Again, the problem isn't the people that read macrumors. The problem is that it hit the front page of the Globe and Mail. The people that read this site know it's coming. Most of the people that read the Globe didn't until Toshiba violated a confidentiality contract (and remember, that is still the bigger issue).

We don't know that the Toshiba violated in contract. We are all assuming that they did based on the IDG News Service article and a ThinkSecret report. From reading the article, she never said that Apple was ordering the drives for the iPod. All she said was that Apple was interested in buying the 60 GB drives. We have no idea the wording of the confidentiality contract (if any) between Apple and Toshiba.

It I do my math right, it has the potential to affect sales for quarter. Which means it has the potential to change the sales trend on a quaterly financial report. For a company that can have serious implicatiions.

I highly doubt that it will affect sales that much. For one thing, we have no idea that the 60GB would replace the 40GB at the top of the line, it may very well be a $599 iPod. More importantly, most of the people who are about to buy iPods don't read the internet rumors sites and probably missed this story all together. Finally, did anyone think that the iPod were going to top out at 40 GB forever. Was Toshiba supposed keep their 60 GB drives a secret until Steve thought it was okay to reveal them to us.

El Tritoma
Jun 3, 2004, 06:37 PM
I echo other people sentiments. I really don't see the big deal here. It would be one thing if Toshiba leak specific details regarding ipod features. Obviously, it's a given they would upgrade the hard drive. As for hurting sales, really, aren't the 15-20 gigs more popular than the 40 anyway? Seems to me it wouldn't hurt sales that much.

I think this will affect not only the relatively unpopular 40 GiB model, but also the other two models because of the trickle-down effect of their storage capacities also being upgraded. Afterall, I don't think the 40 GiB drives are going to be discontinued.

asphalt-proof
Jun 3, 2004, 06:45 PM
Look this is no worse for Apple than Steve announcing a product (ala17" powerbook or g5 powermac) and not delivering for MONTHS! How do sales figures look when an intended release doesn't materialize for 3 month?! Toshiba has to look at their own bottomline. They have to announce their own products to generate interest in their company. Any reporter with half-a-brain would have figured out the Toshiba-Apple connection and blown the story. Its not that big of a deal. Also, it may be jst a rumor that Apple is in a sniott about this. This is an order of magnitude LESS than the flatpanel iMac leak.

bredlo
Jun 3, 2004, 06:51 PM
well this means for ppl who follow rumors the ipod sales may be affected because people will hold off; but most people dont research it

but apple has always been secretive i think their suppliers should get witht he program and keep tight lipped when they can

I don't think so, bud. The people who follow rumors (hell, anyone with a brain) realize that a higher capacity drive is eventually gonna end up in an iPod. Thus, it won't affect short-term sales because we could've figured it out just by the press release that the new drives exist!

And for those who don't follow rumors, well they won't hear this story in the first place, (as of tonight, it ain't on CNN) so it STILL won't affect sales!

Chill, Steve. Next he won't want any suppliers of Apple parts to announce their new products at all! Crap, he's bossy.

jackc
Jun 3, 2004, 06:56 PM
According to the article, "Apple will begin later this year to more aggressively update its iPod product line on a more regular basis."

Gotta like that! (if true)

quagmire
Jun 3, 2004, 06:58 PM
I think Steve Jobs could do about the 4th generation ipod, is to introduce them at WWDC, and like the mini hold off on sipping intll september-October, so they can get enough HDs to meet demand of the ipod. Hopefully apple will learn from its mistake with the mini and pressure the HD maker to meet the demand.

Wonder Boy
Jun 3, 2004, 07:05 PM
big deal. apple's update the ipod's capacity. is there anyone out there who thought they were going to stay at 40 gigs forever?

jaw04005
Jun 3, 2004, 07:13 PM
I WILL NOT give my patronage to any company that thinks they are more important then their customers.

Well you can "Screw" whoever you want, but hate to burst your bubble but Apple's bottom line is the most important thing to Apple or any other company for that matter, if it wasn't Apple would no longer be a company.

Besides that, they are being silly. Toshiba should have kept quiet, just for the fact that Apple wants them to keep quiet. As a supplier, that is Toshiba’s responsibility.

Colonel Panik
Jun 3, 2004, 07:22 PM
A google search of "ipod 60GB" brings 117,000 matching sites.

Or perhaps 81? And a lot of them are in very foreign languages.

You see, this is the point. Exageration everywhere.

The two most important things in life are silence (the Tosh crowd), and patience (for us).

60GB iPods will come, but I don't think that there are many people who will turn around and need the 60GB version over the 40GB version. And I can't see the 60GB version retailing at the same price as the 40GB version. After all, Apple can't even feed the US market with enough minipods, let alone the Western world. The 60GB will be aimed at the lossless purist, not at Mr. J. Soap. And let's not talk of viPods.

Colonel Panik
Jun 3, 2004, 07:26 PM
If you were drooling for an IPOD and was close to plunking down $499 for a 40GB any day now, but then found out that by waiting only a few months, you could score a 60GB unit for the same unit, wouldn't you WAIT?!

If you're asking "Honestly", I have to ask it, too: how can you HONESTLY be so dim-witted? This is going cut majorly into IPOD SUMMER SALES. You can't see that? Honestly? :confused:

Nah. If you are drooling, then you're not going to wait.
Now, the non-drooling crowd, they might wait. But, is there a glut of iPods in the market at the mo?

Colonel Panik
Jun 3, 2004, 07:28 PM
I WILL NOT give my patronage to any company that thinks they are more important then their customers.

Is there a for profit company which thinks that their customers are more important than them?

a_iver
Jun 3, 2004, 08:02 PM
I don't seem why everyone is so upset. Big deal, Toshiba leaked a relatively unimportant secret, and Apple gets upset because they either love secrets or it's the principle of the thing - whatever. Well anyways as another day passes people still bicker as to who is being more childish, Apple or Toshiba. Like said so many times before by others here "Move along, nothing to see here".

ClimbingTheLog
Jun 3, 2004, 08:04 PM
Steve is just upset to not get the spotlight on this. Anybody with a brain can figure out that Apple would be buying these new drives.

It's just more crap about keeping everything so secret. Yeah, those G5s are just flying out the door, because you haven't announced an upgrade. What a joke.

That may be, but throwing a shiffit over it has some business advantages. Apple can be furious and get some concessions from Toshiba or shrug it off and get none.

And, for all we know, they were in negotiations with Hitachi and were leading Hitachi to believe they'd buy 1.8" drives from them for the iPod 60 even though they already had a deal with Toshiba to get a better price on the Mini drives. So now that deal is blown out of the water.

ClimbingTheLog
Jun 3, 2004, 08:14 PM
What do iPods have to do with a developers conference?

Apple is pissed at IDG for moving MWNY to MWB. So WWDC is the summer introduction keynote.

Still, Paris is more likely for iPod and Powerbook availability. If IPod4 is really iBook Mini that it might show at WWDC, so there can be apps for it.

ClimbingTheLog
Jun 3, 2004, 08:16 PM
I think this will affect not only the relatively unpopular 40 GiB model, but also the other two models because of the trickle-down effect of their storage capacities also being upgraded. Afterall, I don't think the 40 GiB drives are going to be discontinued.

Don't try to be too smart - iPods are GB, not GiB.

BeigeUser
Jun 3, 2004, 08:43 PM
I was holding off on a iPod purchase because I thought there might be new models at WWDC. But if there aren't going to be new iPods til October, I may go to the store today and buy one.

mhouse
Jun 3, 2004, 08:54 PM
A lot of these posts have said something along these lines:

"This is all about Steve Jobs' ego...blah...blah...stop whining...blah...blah...mad that he didn't get to announce it...blah...blah..."

Maybe some of you are too young to be aware of the following fact: Steve Jobs IS Apple Computer. They tried existing without him once before. Anyone with a bit of historical perspective knows how THAT worked out.

Of course Steve is an egomaniac. Is there anyone who doesn't know that? He is also quite possibly the most enigmatic and persuasive salesman in the history of the planet. Apple is really a very tiny, very vulnerable company that manages to stay in the game for three reasons:

1. Design
2. Marketing
3. Steve Jobs' massive flarking ego and the showmanship and hype associated with it.

Please bear this in mind when dismissing Steve. Steve's ego and swagger, for better or worse, is in Apple's DNA. Without it, there isn't much left.

Remember this, too: Steve doesn't need Apple anymore (His fortune is made already with Pixar and in a far bigger way than even during his heyday with the Apple II), but Apple damn sure needs Steve.

Who the heck but Steve Jobs would have had the balls to release a 400 dollar MP3 player in the first place? A 400 dollar MP3 player without which we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

dopefiend
Jun 3, 2004, 08:59 PM
Who the heck but Steve Jobs would have had the balls to release a 400 dollar MP3 player in the first place? A 400 dollar MP3 player without which we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

The iPod wasn't the first $400 mp3 player ;)

jocknerd
Jun 3, 2004, 09:43 PM
Damn, what's Steve going to talk about now? Surely, it can't be about computers can it? Apple got out of the computer business. Or so the rumor goes. Maybe he can just spend the time making music in GarageBand.

Analog Kid
Jun 3, 2004, 09:43 PM
Apple is right in this case, Toshiba is wrong. Whatever Toshiba or people on this board may think of Apple's information control doesn't give them the right to violate it.

Apple sets Apple's business strategy, not Toshiba. If Toshiba thought Apple was being childish they should have called Steve, said "stop being a baby and let us announce our deal". They had no right to announce against Apple's policies.

If Apple felt it was important to mention the word "hippopotamus" in every press release related to their products, Toshiba should honor that.

It's very clear just from reading this thread that Apple is famous for wanting to control information, so this wasn't an example of "oops, we didn't know you'd care". Someone f'd up.

People here can rail all they want about how Apple handles future product announcements but while they might have a personal interest in wanting to know things earlier, they're certainly not in a position to understand the impact of Apple's marketing strategy better than Apple is.

Anyway, that's my ¥2...

flyfish29
Jun 3, 2004, 09:55 PM
Teehehe, I would have to agree. I mean its not really that big of a deal. Almost anyone who reads this info, already knows that Toshiba just anounced the 60 gig HD, and that it would prob find its way into the iPod sometime soon. People were either going to wait for it, or say screw it 60 gigs is too much, and buy one now. It doesn't change much.
Realistically though Apple is making a statement by doing this. Don't reveal ANYTHING even if rumor sites would know differently...it only takes one early released rumor to mess up financial figures for a quarter. Luckily this one doesn't hurt too bad. I would guess that there are other secrets out there right now that steve doesn't want released because the competitors would get a big jump on it if they were.

7on
Jun 3, 2004, 10:27 PM
A lot of these posts have said something along these lines:

"This is all about Steve Jobs' ego...blah...blah...stop whining...blah...blah...mad that he didn't get to announce it...blah...blah..."

Maybe some of you are too young to be aware of the following fact: Steve Jobs IS Apple Computer. They tried existing without him once before. Anyone with a bit of historical perspective knows how THAT worked out.

Of course Steve is an egomaniac. Is there anyone who doesn't know that? He is also quite possibly the most enigmatic and persuasive salesman in the history of the planet. Apple is really a very tiny, very vulnerable company that manages to stay in the game for three reasons:

1. Design
2. Marketing
3. Steve Jobs' massive flarking ego and the showmanship and hype associated with it.

Please bear this in mind when dismissing Steve. Steve's ego and swagger, for better or worse, is in Apple's DNA. Without it, there isn't much left.

Remember this, too: Steve doesn't need Apple anymore (His fortune is made already with Pixar and in a far bigger way than even during his heyday with the Apple II), but Apple damn sure needs Steve.

Who the heck but Steve Jobs would have had the balls to release a 400 dollar MP3 player in the first place? A 400 dollar MP3 player without which we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

lol, so true. Don't forget that Steve works at Apple for $1 a year.

Michael Vance
Jun 3, 2004, 11:52 PM
What about the massive number of G5 sales that never happened because Steve Jobs himself stupidly told potential customers that 3Gig machines would be available by Summer 04. Has there ever been a bigger boondoggle than that?

The Fuji thing seems like a minor glitch by comparison.

t300
Jun 4, 2004, 01:08 AM
What about the massive number of G5 sales that never happened because Steve Jobs himself stupidly told potential customers that 3Gig machines would be available by Summer 04. Has there ever been a bigger boondoggle than that?

The Fuji thing seems like a minor glitch by comparison.

SO true...oh so true...

coolfactor
Jun 4, 2004, 01:42 AM
1) I assume Apple has a confidentiality agreement with Toshiba. If so, this isn't just someone in a bad mood griping, but a breach of contract.

....clipped....

A contract breach is serious stuff.



Well said.

PolarbearTed
Jun 4, 2004, 02:06 AM
I never realised how many sarcastic mac users there are.

I think they have every right to be concerned, I think some of you are second-guessing that Apple is being "immature" and incredibly irrate about the secret. I think you need to really be critical of the information. As it doesn't actually say that.

The issue is whether Toshiba actually made the claims, or whether the media have been putting words into the mouth of Toshiba's PR. And I'm more than certain that Apple has a confidentiality agreement that would mean a breach of contract as some members have already alluded to.

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 02:09 AM
Oh grow up, Apple!

It's not like it was some big secret you were going to update the iPod in the Fall. What does this reveal about the new iPod? It has a larger capacity than current models? Wow! What a revelation! Boy, Toshiba just blew that secret right out of the hat!

I mean, I though they might get better battery life, and there's those rumblings about photo display on a TV, but higher capacities???? NO!

You are assuming that Think Secret is correct. I think the more likely scenario is that Think Secret is dead wrong on how "mad" the folks at Apple are.

It just sounds completely silly that executives at Apple would be this upset when all we have to do is look at the past iPod releases to know that a larger model will be coming out soon. It is nothing like the ATI problem they are comparing it to because ATI talked about specific models that would be released.

Stating that a new iPod using the 60GB drive will be coming out is no different than saying July is going to come after June this year. It is so obvious to actually border on ridiculous.

Later, Frank

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 02:14 AM
What if Apple didn't want to go STRAIGHT to a 60GB model? What if they wanted Toshiba to keep their big mouth shut about the existance of a 60GB model so they could release a 50GB unit and customers wouldn't feel cheated about losing the the other 10GB? Or simply pass the 50GB model up entirely and wait 6 more months for the bigger drive?

This could also negatively impact Apple stock. The people here who are are gleefully enjoying this (pc trolls) or those who don't "get it" aren't really considering this as an opportunity to lose out on millions that would've been theirs if someone would've just keep his mouth shut over at Toshiba.

And what if Apple isn't Toshiba's only customer???

You do realize that they aren't, right?

SLAPSHOTW
Jun 4, 2004, 04:08 AM
What about the massive number of G5 sales that never happened because Steve Jobs himself stupidly told potential customers that 3Gig machines would be available by Summer 04. Has there ever been a bigger boondoggle than that?

The Fuji thing seems like a minor glitch by comparison.


Perhaps you don't realize that many people believe that the 3Ghz (possible duals) will be released at WWDC in two weeks, at the end of June, in the summer of '04, as was ORIGINALLY promised.

Also, you overlook (or maybe don't know) the fact that this promise was in fact changed to September '04.

dahacouk
Jun 4, 2004, 04:19 AM
this promise was in fact changed to September '04.

Please provide the source for that information. URL?

dahacouk
Jun 4, 2004, 04:23 AM
Really, it's obvious that technology is going to improve so what's the big deal?

I hereby predict that Apple will release an 80 Gbyte iPod within the next year. Big deal! ;-)

Cheers Daniel

Trimix
Jun 4, 2004, 07:14 AM
Apple may just blow this out of proportion to extract better terms for the 80 disk scheduled in Q1-05 ?

Oiiiiiiii, there I said it, damn secrecy agreement....
:D

mig
Jun 4, 2004, 08:20 AM
No wonder that Apple has no time for proper and immediate service to their customers. They are too busy writing emails to other companies like Toshiba, ATI etc.

I wish they would rather react to complaint of customers quicky before they start complaining.

PS: Waiting for 1.5 month already for replacement of PBG4 AL cover, which is ****ty designed and not as stiff as aluminium should be. But Apple of course doesn't care...

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 08:57 AM
He are all so sure that Apple is pissed off just because ThinkSecret said so.

The truth is we don't know what the deal between Apple and Toshiba is, and we don't know what Apple's reaction to the story was.

itsa
Jun 4, 2004, 09:18 AM
2) With everybody and their Uncle Microsoft gunning for the iPod right now, it's not reassuring to have other companies blabbing details about upcoming products to the press. What's next, Samsung releasing their new mini-colour LCD "as used in the upcoming video iPod <oops, was that my outside voice>"?


Don't you think Microsoft has the means to get whatever info they want? I mean, come on... I don't care how much Apple is paying their grunt workers.. they will all talk for the right price!

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 09:22 AM
It is strange that I find that most of the people calling Apple a big baby, blah blah blah are quoting the rumor site and seem to not realize that this was released in the NEWS not just the rumor sites.

This is released to the NEWS, not a rumor, not a speculation. This is not Apple over-reacting.

DO your research, then criticize.

Whether or not we can put 2 and 2 together to get 4 is irrelevant. Of course someone could easily speculate that Apple would use the drives, but to have an affirmation can hurt sales, regardless of how you want to justify the information leak. THIS CAN HURT SALES! I am in the Multimedia and Digital Device field and leaking information about any project we are currently working on can hurt our sales with those customers as well as the customers sales, especially if an NDA is involved. That is breach of contract. Regardless of how minute a breach of contract is serious.

S.

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 09:24 AM
Don't you think Microsoft has the means to get whatever info they want? I mean, come on... I don't care how much Apple is paying their grunt workers.. they will all talk for the right price!

This would be a totally different issue. Do you really believe that MS is trying paying off Apple workers to get info about upcoming products? Talk about paranoia. I have no idea how you came up with this one.

This story is about a person a Toshiba mentioning that Apple was going to be buying the new 60GB drive there were introducing, and as I have said several times. We don't know that Apple is angry about this at all or that Toshiba was not supposed to reveal that Apple was interested in the new drives. If you read the story she never said that Apple was buying the 60GB HD's to upgrade the iPod line. All she said was that Apple is ordering them. I still don't see how it is a secret that Apple is a customer of Toshiba's.

itsa
Jun 4, 2004, 09:28 AM
what? the secrets out???
That's kinda like telling people... we have these new G5's, but we are coming out with much better/faster one within a year!

How will Jobs make them Dual 3gigers look good now?
Maybe he will say.. dual 4gigers are within a year!

itsa
Jun 4, 2004, 09:30 AM
This would be a totally different issue. Do you really believe that MS is trying paying off Apple workers to get info about upcoming products? Talk about paranoia. I have no idea how you came up with this one.

This story is about a person a Toshiba mentioning that Apple was going to be buying the new 60GB drive there were introducing, and as I have said several times. We don't know that Apple is angry about this at all or that Toshiba was not supposed to reveal that Apple was interested in the new drives. If you read the story she never said that Apple was buying the 60GB HD's to upgrade the iPod line. All she said was that Apple is ordering them. I still don't see how it is a secret that Apple is a customer of Toshiba's.
My point is.. NO ONE need Toshiba to say anything to get info...

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 09:35 AM
It is strange that I find that most of the people calling Apple a big baby, blah blah blah are quoting the rumor site and seem to not realize that this was released in the NEWS not just the rumor sites.

This is released to the NEWS, not a rumor, not a speculation. This is not Apple over-reacting.

DO your research, then criticize.

S.

What is news? Apple reaction or the quote from Toshiba.
Ahead of the launch, Toshiba has been showing the drive to customers and has already received an order from Apple, Lee said
First of all, Martyn Williams who wrote the article didn't even put this in quotes so we can assume he paraphrased what she said. Second, she said nothing about the iPods. She said Apple order the 60GB drives. The writer than made a connection between the use of the 1.8" drives and the iPod and came to the conclusion that is what they would be used for. Since Apple is not Toshiba's only customer, I can only assume they were free to announce the existence of the 60GB whenever the wanted. Apple had to expect people to then make a connection to between the drives and the iPod.

I suspect the ThinkSecret article about Apple being pissed off is a load of bull.

The only "news" article I can find about Apple being upset is on designtechnica.com (http://news.designtechnica.com/article4080.html) and is nothing more than a repeat of what ThinkSecret wrote (in fact it suggest to "read more at ThinkSecret" at the bottom of the article.

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 09:37 AM
what? the secrets out???
That's kinda like telling people... we have these new G5's, but we are coming out with much better/faster one within a year!

How will Jobs make them Dual 3gigers look good now?
Maybe he will say.. dual 4gigers are within a year!

First gen G5's were like Mac OS X 10.0, it was really meant for early adopters much like the first version of any of their hardware. Most people who are not brave early adopters know to wait for the second or third revision for Apple to get the kinks out of the first gen machines. So announcing the first gen G5 and that it will be better in a year was a clear statement made for the benefit of those who are not early adopters.

The second and 3rd gen G5's are where the big sales are going to come in. Having worked out the kinks, improved the system architecture, and increased the speed from the 1st gen machines has sorta been Apple's M.O.. It happened with 1st gen G3's, G4's and iMacs, this time with the G5.


S.

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 09:38 AM
What is news? Apple reaction or the quote from Toshiba.



The quote from Toshiba. Should have been more clear, **Bows**


Additional clarity: I am talking about the Apple purchasing the drives quote, not what the drives will be used for. The article made no mention of that.



S.

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 09:44 AM
The second and 3rd gen G5's are where the big sales are going to come in. Having worked out the kinks, improved the system architecture, and increased the speed from the 1st gen machines has sorta been Apple's M.O.. It happened with 1st gen G3's, G4's and iMacs, this time with the G5.


S.

This is true for everything not just Apple computers, and technically it hasn't happened with the G5's yet. There are the exact same computer that was announced just under a year ago.

orangedv
Jun 4, 2004, 09:45 AM
Couple of points;

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?

Second point I seem to remember a load of spin from Apple about market research showing an ipod mini has the capacity to handle most consumers mobile music needs. Honestly, can someone work out for me how much money you would need to spend in itunes to fill this hard drive? Cant think this will appeal to anyone but pirates..

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 09:48 AM
This is true for everything not just Apple computers, and technically it hasn't happened with the G5's yet. There are the exact same computer that was announced just under a year ago.

Touche'. I have to learn to be more clear and choose my words wisely, English is my 4th language, have pitty. I should have said that the same first gen M.O. WILL occur with the G5.

You are absolutely correct, this is not limited to Apple Hardware... look at the any hardware companys' first version hardware. ;)

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 10:01 AM
Couple of points;

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?
I could not agree with you more on this point. Not to mention that Apple is a current customer of Toshiba's 1.8" drives as it is. Toshiba was free to announce their drives. The question is what is Toshiba allowed to say about their business relationship with Apple, and we have no idea how the non-disclosure contract (if any) is written. It could be that Toshiba is not supposed to mention anything about Apple ordering new technology from Toshiba, but we don't know that.
Second point I seem to remember a load of spin from Apple about market research showing an ipod mini has the capacity to handle most consumers mobile music needs. Honestly, can someone work out for me how much money you would need to spend in itunes to fill this hard drive? Cant think this will appeal to anyone but pirates..
I totally disagree with you on this though.
While most (or at least a lot) don't need/want more that 4GB with them at a time, there are plenty of people out there with large, legal music collections (I used to own over 1000 CD's before didn't feel like moving them so I sold over half of them - unfortunately, might I add, that it was in the late 90's before the MP3 craze, and I didn't have the luxury of storing copies of everything so I lost those songs forever). I even know some one who owns two iPod (a 40GB and a 15GB) and complains that he can't fit his whole music collection (much of which he recorded into his computer from vinyl LP's and converted to MP3's then to AAC) on one device (he would however need about 120GB iPod for everything. I am not saying he is normal, but I am sure he is not alone.
Secondly, the 1.8" 60GB drives ordered by Apple may be not even be for the iPod. That conclusion was made by the author of the IDG article and by us. Maybe it is for a super PDA or "video iPod" (iVid) or some other new product we can't even imagine yet. I admit it probably is for iPod, but we do not know that for sure.

XForge
Jun 4, 2004, 10:07 AM
Well, um, duh? Toshiba makes the 40GB drive in the current iPod; Toshiba comes out with a 60GB drive with the same form factor... and we're supposed to NOT figure out that's gonna be in the next iPod revision?? Come ON already!!

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 10:12 AM
I could not agree with you more on this point. Not to mention that Apple is a current customer of Toshiba's 1.8" drives as it is. Toshiba was free to announce their drives. The question is what is Toshiba allowed to say about their business relationship with Apple, and we have no idea how the non-disclosure contract (if any) is written. It could be that Toshiba is not supposed to mention anything about Apple ordering new technology from Toshiba, but we don't know that.

I totally disagree with you on this though.
While most (or at least a lot) don't need/want more that 4GB with them at a time, there are plenty of people out there with large, legal music collections (I used to own over 1000 CD's before didn't feel like moving them so I sold over half of them - unfortunately, might I add, that it was in the late 90's before the MP3 craze, and I didn't have the luxury of storing copies of everything so I lost those songs forever). I even know some one who owns two iPod (a 40GB and a 15GB) and complains that he can't fit his whole music collection (much of which he recorded into his computer from vinyl LP's and converted to MP3's then to AAC) on one device (he would however need about 120GB iPod for everything. I am not saying he is normal, but I am sure he is not alone.
Secondly, the 1.8" 60GB drives ordered by Apple may be not even be for the iPod. That conclusion was made by the author of the IDG article and by us. Maybe it is for a super PDA or "video iPod" (iVid) or some other new product we can't even imagine yet. I admit it probably is for iPod, but we do not know that for sure.

Your intelligent responses are quite refreshing. No I am not being a smart ass.

Most people seem to overlook that Apples' intentions for the drives are not noted and that the mention of Apple was in that Apple would be purchasing these new drives. The intention of Apples' use of the drives was a speculative act of the rumor forums.

Not all high quantity music owners are pirates. Most of my music was acquired as gifts from the record companies I have dealt with for 10 years. I have filled my 20GB ipod 3 times over.

S.

Tulse
Jun 4, 2004, 10:16 AM
Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?
Apple presumably has a contract with Toshiba for the purchase of these drives. Given that this is Apple, I would be extremely surprised if there isn't a non-disclosure clause in that contract regarding future delivery of these products. If that's the case, Apple has every right (including legal) to be pissed.

In any case, even without a non-disclosure clause, it is very bad business practice to disclose who your future customers are without getting some sort of permission/approval from said customers. To speak out of turn puts those customers at a competitive disadvantage, and may damage whatever marketing plan they have. Information is money, especially in the cut-throat business of portable digital media players.

Squire
Jun 4, 2004, 10:21 AM
Couple of points;

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?

First of all, any argument here must include (or at least make reference to) a few assumptions:

1) Was Apple Computer Inc. mentioned as a buyer of these new drives? Or was there any statements even linking Apple as a potential buyer?

2) Do Apple and Toshiba have a non-disclosure agreement? Does it prohibit the above (#1)?

3) Are the folks at Apple really upset?

For number one, we have to simply put our faith in the media if we want to assume it's true. I have very little knowledge about such agreements. However, in the tech industry- and especially where Apple Computer is involved- I'd have to guess such an agreement is in place. My final point doesn't really matter.

IF Apple was mentioned as a customer and IF that utterance broke the rules of the agreement between the two companies, Apple has every right to be upset. And others have already pointed out several reasons why their reaction would be justified: possible loss of sales, possible monkey wrench thrown into Hitachi negotiations, loss of trust, and simply anger based on principle.

I don't know what goes on behind closed doors at 1 Infinite Loop (and I doubt few on this board do), but this is most likely more serious than a lot of people here (the ones saying, "Duh! As if we wouldn't know they were going in the iPod anyway?") realize.

Second point I seem to remember a load of spin from Apple about market research showing an ipod mini has the capacity to handle most consumers mobile music needs. Honestly, can someone work out for me how much money you would need to spend in itunes to fill this hard drive? Cant think this will appeal to anyone but pirates..

People with big CD collections. My brother, for instance, would need 2 of these to hold his collection and he doesn't download music. Besides, the iPod has become more than just a fancy mp3 player. I have all my important files stored on mine as backup.

Squire

socbyset
Jun 4, 2004, 10:21 AM
Apple presumably has a contract with Toshiba for the purchase of these drives. Given that this is Apple, I would be extremely surprised if there isn't a non-disclosure clause in that contract regarding future delivery of these products. If that's the case, Apple has every right (including legal) to be pissed.

yes, and besides whatever contractual obligations toshiba has, there is the simple matter of it being a generally bad idea to enrage one of your major customers.

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 10:23 AM
Apple presumably has a contract with Toshiba for the purchase of these drives. Given that this is Apple, I would be extremely surprised if there isn't a non-disclosure clause in that contract regarding future delivery of these products. If that's the case, Apple has every right (including legal) to be pissed.

In any case, even without a non-disclosure clause, it is very bad business practice to disclose who your future customers are without getting some sort of permission/approval from said customers. To speak out of turn puts those customers at a competitive disadvantage, and may damage whatever marketing plan they have. Information is money, especially in the cut-throat business of portable digital media players.

Indeed.

S.

JGowan
Jun 4, 2004, 10:46 AM
What about the massive number of G5 sales that never happened because Steve Jobs himself stupidly told potential customers that 3Gig machines would be available by Summer 04. Has there ever been a bigger boondoggle than that?

The Fuji thing seems like a minor glitch by comparison.I don't agree with your accessment of the situation. A couple of reasons why that isn't really a good comparison:

1a) An ipod is a "can take it or leave it kind of thing". It's entertainment. And at $499, it's more or less a luxury.

1b) Lead times between ipod revisions generally is 6 months.

2a) A computer (especially the new Professional-grade G5) is not necessarily a luxury, even though it costs way more than $499. Many people had already been waiting for the "next big jump" in terms of performance. Apple gave them more than just a jump with the new G5. They got Performance; Great Price; New Chip Architecture; Incredible new enclusure. In short, the wait for many was well-worth it.

People waiting were finished waiting when the new G5 was revealed. It was too tempting and frankly, many people simply NEEDED a new computer with faster performance. The need is key. Steve knew this and felt safe to speak of even greater performance in the future.

2b) Steve's promise was in excess of 12 months. This is twice as long as one might wait for a new, greater capacity ipod (again a device to simply entertain). A casual user might say "yeah, I'll wait a year for the 3GHz computer" or perhaps someone who had gotten a computer within the last year or so and understands that they need to wait to get the most out of their G4 Mirror-door computer. But pro users with a need for fast tower are not going to wait (and most likely, didn't). They're simply going to plunk down the money and get back to work.

------------------------------

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again because I think think that if Apple is upset, it's truly because of this:

What if they were planning a 50GB model next? What if one of their announcements at WWDC was the new 50GB model and these were already into production. I mean, they've done these odd number jumps before. I incorrectly thought that the obvious plan would've been to release a 5, 10, 20 & 40. Apple snook in the 15 & 30 and sold a lot of them. The next obvious step would be 50GB, right?

But then, Toshiba announces a 60GB and suddenly, people are thinking, I'll just wait 6 months for the even bigger unit. I think an announcement like Toshiba allegedly made could cause a lot of 50GB units to remain unsold. Or it could, in the least, foster ill-will between those customers who really didn't want to wait, but felt Apple was holding back on technology and kind of "short-changing" them. It's a given that companies always are working on the next big thing, but to actually know what it is and that they are definitely HOLDING OUT is another.

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 11:02 AM
For number one, we have to simply put our faith in the media if we want to assume it's true. I have very little knowledge about such agreements. However, in the tech industry- and especially where Apple Computer is involved- I'd have to guess such an agreement is in place. My final point doesn't really matter.
You have a lot more faith in the media than I do (and I work in the media). Whenever a journalist doesn't make something a direct quote, I always take it with a grain of salt. It is no longer what what the person said; it has been become the journalists interpretation of what was said. The truth is we don't know what the conversation between the journalist and Ms. Lee (if any) was. We don't know if he got the quote second hand or just plain made it up (maybe he is trying to get job at the New York Times). I am not accusing Mr. Williams of this. I am just saying that non-direct quotes have to be treated as such.
IF Apple was mentioned as a customer and IF that utterance broke the rules of the agreement between the two companies, Apple has every right to be upset. And others have already pointed out several reasons why their reaction would be justified: possible loss of sales, possible monkey wrench thrown into Hitachi negotiations, loss of trust, and simply anger based on principle.
Like you say, we don't know what the rules of any Apple/Toshiba agreements are. It is common knowledge that the current Toshiba 1.8" drives are in the iPod. Who orginally made the relationship public information, Apple or Toshiba? I can't really track that down anymore, but it clearly was not a secret. I would hope that the "deputy manager of Toshiba Digital Media Network Taiwan Corp.'s hard disk drive division technical department" knows the rules of any non-disclosure contracts regarding her division's products. I guess if we learn about Cindy Lee getting fired by Toshiba we will know that it was her fault.
I don't know what goes on behind closed doors at 1 Infinite Loop (and I doubt few on this board do), but this is most likely more serious than a lot of people here (the ones saying, "Duh! As if we wouldn't know they were going in the iPod anyway?") realize.
We don't know what is going at Apple you are correct, but I would hope that Steve is more concerned with living up to his 3 GHz G5 promise than he is with people discovering that Apple is going to upgrade the iPod in the near future. Besides, in the article itself Toshiba doesn't plan to start mass producing the drives until July or August. It could easily be four to five months before we see them in the iPod. I guess time will tell if this hurts sales. Personally, I expect the 60 GB drive to cost more than the 40 GB to produce. So if the iPod is the destination for the new drive there no guarantee it will become the $499 model (maybe it will be a $549 model with $50 drops on the rest of the line).

If Apple is pissed off, it just goes to show where their priorities are today. So far the iPod money coming into Cupertino hasn't resulted in new products coming from the Mac division.

sushi
Jun 4, 2004, 11:25 AM
lol, so true. Don't forget that Steve works at Apple for $1 a year.
Actually, while he is paid only $1 per year, he makes a lot more through benefits and bonus type payments.

Take for example, the jet airplane (deal worth many millions) that the board purchased for him. :D

Sushi

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 11:26 AM
2b) Steve's promise was in excess of 12 months. This is twice as long as one might wait for a new, greater capacity ipod (again a device to simply entertain). A casual user might say "yeah, I'll wait a year for the 3GHz computer" or perhaps someone who had gotten a computer within the last year or so and understands that they need to wait to get the most out of their G4 Mirror-door computer. But pro users with a need for fast tower are going to wait. They're simply going to plunk down the money and get back to work.

I totally disagree with this assessment. If some one wants an iPod they are going to go get an iPod. If some one has $500 to spend on a portable digital music player and they want a one, they are going to go the store and buy one. They are not going to decide "ohh, if I wait four months there will be a larger one." The iPod has been updated pretty much every six months since it inception. If people truly waited, when would they ever buy one. Heck when the 60GB does come out the 80GB may be only six months away.

More importantly, the 40GB is the worst selling of the iPods anyhow, and I believe the mini is currently the best. So the people affect by the increase are a small percentage of iPod buyers in general.

It is not like the 60GB announcement was big news to the average consumer. The majority of iPod users are not hardcore computer geeks, and probably don't know/care about the latest technology until it reaches their store shelves in the form of products. Then they buy it when they want it.

Most home computer users, on the other hand, shop around before buying a new PC. They look at Dell and Best Buy and Circuit City, etc., and see what they can get for the money they have to spend. Then buy what they percieve to be the best deal (often ignoring the Mac because of a higher upfront cost or "lack of compatibility).

I do agree that companies/power users are going to go out and get the fastest computer when they have the money/need for new computers, but let's say that you are running a small graphical design shop. You have been using an 867MHz PowerMac for three years now and decide it is time to upgrade. If you know that WWDC is approaching and Steve said that the G5 would be 3 GHz within a year, don't you give it a month and see what comes out. Afterall, you have survived using the computer you are now for so long what is a couple more weeks.

The design department at my company (the only part of the building not full of Dells) is in just that circumstance. They are using three 1 GHz and one dual 1 GHz G4. They decided to waiting until the Rev. B G5's to upgrade their systems because the head of the Department doesn't want to spend the money on a computer that is "nearly a year old" and believe that updates cannot be very far off.

a17inchFuture
Jun 4, 2004, 11:39 AM
Just because Apple is jerks enough to continue this trend of not infroming the consumer, doesnt mean we should accept it, or they should scold others for it.

Look at the videogame market, AKA the most successful in the world. They announce their new platforms YEARS in advance, and then continually update their progress and sepcs.

Only Apple thinks they can get away with these practices, the company that charges 500 dollars for 512 MB of RAM, since they know most of their consumers wont knwo the difference. Real friendly to the consumer, arent they? Gotta love a company that cares about themselves over the people keeping them in business.

MrToast
Jun 4, 2004, 11:41 AM
Holy crap! You mean Apple was going to bump the HD size of the iPod?!?! :eek: No way man! I don't believe it! Never in a million years!

Grow up Apple. As if no one saw this coming... :rolleyes:

MrToast

JGowan
Jun 4, 2004, 11:41 AM
I totally disagree with this assessment. If some one wants an iPod they are going to go get an iPod. If some one has $500 to spend on a portable digital music player and they want a one, they are going to go the store and buy one. They are not going to decide "ohh, if I wait four months there will be a larger one."There are plenty of people on both sides. For every person not able to keep the cash from burning a hole in their pocket, there are those that are able to keep their cool and chill on the purchase for 4-6months.

... but let's say that you are running a small graphical design shop. You have been using an 867MHz PowerMac for three years now and decide it is time to upgrade. If you know that WWDC is approaching and Steve said that the G5 would be 3 GHz within a year, don't you give it a month and see what comes out. Afterall, you have survived using the computer you are now for so long what is a couple more weeks.What Michael Vance called a boondoggle was Jobs' announcement a year ago about Summer's 3Ghz machines. His assessment was that it hurt the intial 2Ghz G5 sales because people knew a YEAR OUT about the 3GHz machines. No one said anything about the people who need to buy NOW and waiting to see what WWDC has to offer. Of course, only a fool, those truly in need or those who aren't in the know would go out and buy a computer right now. But we weren't discussing that left-field topic.

They decided to waiting until the Rev. B G5's to upgrade their systems because the head of the Department doesn't want to spend the money on a computer that is "nearly a year old" and believe that updates cannot be very far off.Again, smart decision. But, I wasn't discussing potential customers of today, I was talking about customers of a year ago.

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 12:01 PM
Just because Apple is jerks enough to continue this trend of not infroming the consumer, doesnt mean we should accept it, or they should scold others for it.

Look at the videogame market, AKA the most successful in the world. They announce their new platforms YEARS in advance, and then continually update their progress and sepcs.

Only Apple thinks they can get away with these practices, the company that charges 500 dollars for 512 MB of RAM, since they know most of their consumers wont knwo the difference. Real friendly to the consumer, arent they? Gotta love a company that cares about themselves over the people keeping them in business.

Being the paradox that Apple has become, the underdog with a High Powered bark, Apple has to keep things under wraps. Why let the competitors know every plan they have. This is nothing like the video game console industry. The video game console industry can announce their plans because, given the history, video game console makers tend to try to differentiate themselves from one another. The idea of a rival console maker "stealing" ideas and beating the competitors to market with are somewhat (<----Keyword) of a non-issue. This is clearly not so for the PC/Mac industry, history clearly shows this.

Companies HAVE to care about themselves first, if they do not how can they possibly provide anything of value to the customer. It may not be what you want to hear, but this is what is so. This is not solely an Apple practice. We see it in the Automotive industry, the home electronic industry (sans consoles), and in the Movie business. This practice is not new, not soley on Apple and definitely not uncouth. How one chooses to run his or her operation is their right, as long as they produce good products why should their secrecy matter?

This is also often seen in the video game software industry. When details, no matter how small, are leaked sans the developers permission it is a big deal.

This is not to defend Apple, but to defend business practice and the ethics thereof. Regardless of how small the detail is, i.e. announcing a new 60GB HD and saying/inferring that Apple has already placed their order, it is a big deal... especially so if (<--- Keyword) an NDA is involved and knowing Apple it just may be.

One must see past his own want and thirst for information and find another view that is not obvious to you. Most of the people here seem to only look at this from the point of view of a consumer who wants to know things they honestly have no right to know without the companies permission, end of story. I do know that if I were to do an interview and spilled the beans about my clients, no matter how small, I would be crucified and my career would be in danger.

This is what is so, the only thing one can do is deal with it or start their own business venture and run it the way they see fit.

NOTE: No anger should be read in this statement, just matter of fact.

S.

uzombie
Jun 4, 2004, 12:18 PM
Apple acts like a big spoiled baby. its about time they stopped playing spy vs spy and start making better products. serves them right. Are they a computer company or a security agency???

I agree %100.

Apple (Jobs) must be a control-freak. Just think...if there wasn't any issue with Apple and getting product to market without some "special announcement" gala, ego-popper...there wouldn't be rumor sites! :eek:

bar italia
Jun 4, 2004, 12:58 PM
If some one has $500 to spend on a portable digital music player and they want a one, they are going to go the store and buy one. They are not going to decide "ohh, if I wait four months there will be a larger one." The iPod has been updated pretty much every six months since it inception. If people truly waited, when would they ever buy one. Heck when the 60GB does come out the 80GB may be only six months away.


pjkelnhofer has a refreshing grasp of the correct.

Wonder Boy
Jun 4, 2004, 01:33 PM
He are all so sure that Apple is pissed off just because ThinkSecret said so.

The truth is we don't know what the deal between Apple and Toshiba is, and we don't know what Apple's reaction to the story was.

out of all the apple rumour site, i and i think a lot of people believe what thinksecret says more than anyother site. they have a great track record of reliability and a knack for covering issues a lot of other sites ignore.

thats mostly my opinion,but i think we can all agree they are a lot more reliable than looprumors ever was.

Misplaced Mage
Jun 4, 2004, 01:46 PM
From my experiences in the cell phone industry (another hideously competitive one), there're going to be non-disclosure agreements between Apple and every single one of its suppliers and outside contractors, hardware or software -- it's SOP. Even assuming there aren't already penalty clauses in the purchase agreements Apple has with Toshiba, Toshiba's breach of said NDA gives Apple an opening to renegotiate and get better pricing on the 60GB drives or pricing concessions on other components. So it actually benefits Apple to be as upset as possible over this in public as the wronged party.

Behind the closed doors of Apple's supply chain management (purchasing), however, you may hear chuckles of glee...

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 02:10 PM
out of all the apple rumour site, i and i think a lot of people believe what thinksecret says more than anyother site. they have a great track record of reliability and a knack for covering issues a lot of other sites ignore.

thats mostly my opinion,but i think we can all agree they are a lot more reliable than looprumors ever was.

They are correct more than many of the sights, I would agree. However, they are still a rumor site.

Additionally, the comparison to the ATI fiasco doesn't make sense to me. It's not like Toshiba said we are making 60 GB for the iPod. They were announcing the drives (which they sell to many people, unlike Mac specific video cards) and mentioned that Apple would be buying them. ATI basically announced that new PowerMac and iMac models were coming out and they were supplying the video cards (before Apple had said anything about the new computers).

If Apple is upset about the announcement of the 60GB drives altogether that wouldn't make sense. Apple is not Toshiba's only customer you would think they are allowed to announce their own technology whenever they want.

If they are upset because of the announcement of Apple wanting to purchase them, I can see how they feel like their plans were given away (and if Toshiba was in fact not supposed to mention it they have gripe). However, even if the original article made no mention of Apple don't you think we all would have assumed upon the announcement of 60 GB drives that it meant an upgrade for the iPod.

JGowan
Jun 4, 2004, 02:16 PM
...I do know that if I were to do an interview and spilled the beans about my clients, no matter how small, I would be crucified and my career would be in danger.Interestingly enough, it's when Jesus Christ was crucified that his career really took off.

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 03:10 PM
Perhaps you don't realize that many people believe that the 3Ghz (possible duals) will be released at WWDC in two weeks, at the end of June, in the summer of '04, as was ORIGINALLY promised.

Also, you overlook (or maybe don't know) the fact that this promise was in fact changed to September '04.

You missed his entire point. It doesn't matter WHEN they are going to be released. The fact that Steve Jobs himself promised that they would be out is the same thing as Toshiba saying they are releasing a 60GB drive in August and Apple has ordered them. The difference is that Steve himself made the statement and he made it a year in advance. Don't you think that would have done much more to stifle sales than this maybe announcement from Toshiba that everyone is making such a big deal about???

If you still don't get his point just try reading it and thinking about it for the rest of the day. :)

Later, Frank

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 03:11 PM
No wonder that Apple has no time for proper and immediate service to their customers. They are too busy writing emails to other companies like Toshiba, ATI etc.

I wish they would rather react to complaint of customers quicky before they start complaining.

PS: Waiting for 1.5 month already for replacement of PBG4 AL cover, which is ****ty designed and not as stiff as aluminium should be. But Apple of course doesn't care...


Never ass|u|me

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 03:14 PM
I suspect the ThinkSecret article about Apple being pissed off is a load of bull.

I agree completely.

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 03:16 PM
First gen G5's were like Mac OS X 10.0, it was really meant for early adopters much like the first version of any of their hardware. Most people who are not brave early adopters know to wait for the second or third revision for Apple to get the kinks out of the first gen machines. So announcing the first gen G5 and that it will be better in a year was a clear statement made for the benefit of those who are not early adopters.

The second and 3rd gen G5's are where the big sales are going to come in. Having worked out the kinks, improved the system architecture, and increased the speed from the 1st gen machines has sorta been Apple's M.O.. It happened with 1st gen G3's, G4's and iMacs, this time with the G5.


S.

That is the most bizarre, inaccurate, and completely made up assessment of the situation that I have seen so far. It is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.

Frank

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 03:30 PM
2b) Steve's promise was in excess of 12 months. This is twice as long as one might wait for a new, greater capacity ipod (again a device to simply entertain). A casual user might say "yeah, I'll wait a year for the 3GHz computer" or perhaps someone who had gotten a computer within the last year or so and understands that they need to wait to get the most out of their G4 Mirror-door computer. But pro users with a need for fast tower are not going to wait (and most likely, didn't). They're simply going to plunk down the money and get back to work.

------------------------------

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again because I think think that if Apple is upset, it's truly because of this:

What if they were planning a 50GB model next? What if one of their announcements at WWDC was the new 50GB model and these were already into production. I mean, they've done these odd number jumps before. I incorrectly thought that the obvious plan would've been to release a 5, 10, 20 & 40. Apple snook in the 15 & 30 and sold a lot of them. The next obvious step would be 50GB, right?

1) Even if everything you said was correct, what about the people that were ready to upgrade 6 months after his statement? What about 9 months after? Wouldn't we have the same situation of lost sales. They are ready to upgrade but don't want to miss out on all that extra power that is just a few months away.... The bottom line is that the comparison to Steve Jobs announcing the 3GHz G5 at the same time as the 2GHz was exactly right for this situation.

2) Are you even aware of a 50GB drive that exists??? If not, then this argument is blown as well. Besides, I don't think Apple would bother releasing a new high end model unless it was at least a 60GB drive.

Frank

Misplaced Mage
Jun 4, 2004, 03:50 PM
No wonder that Apple has no time for proper and immediate service to their customers. They are too busy writing emails to other companies like Toshiba, ATI etc.

I wish they would rather react to complaint of customers quicky before they start complaining.

PS: Waiting for 1.5 month already for replacement of PBG4 AL cover, which is ****ty designed and not as stiff as aluminium should be. But Apple of course doesn't care...

If the replacement cover you (eventually) receive has any difference(s) from the original, I'd consider six weeks to be remarkable speed, given that the redesign (or new alloy, or finish) had to be tested, the tooling to make it modified, new sheet metal obtained (necessary if the thickness, alloy, and possibly finish changes), mass quantities manufactured (and tested again), shipped to the factory and warranty fulfillment center, etc. The (re)design lead time on some components used in computers is measured in months -- years, in the case of the CPU. High volume manufacturing doesn't turn on a dime, no matter how badly any party involved would like it to.

OTOH, if the replacement cover is absolutely identical in form and material to the original... <shrug> Only Apple knows, but there's a point at which it's cheaper for Apple to continue shipping with a flaw, taking customer flak for it, and replacing as necessary than to fix it outright.

stcanard
Jun 4, 2004, 03:51 PM
You missed his entire point. It doesn't matter WHEN they are going to be released. The fact that Steve Jobs himself promised that they would be out is the same thing as Toshiba saying they are releasing a 60GB drive in August and Apple has ordered them.

And you don't see a difference between a CEO of a company talking about his own products, a marketing droid from another company talking about somebody else's products?

And as for a previous commment, actually it's a well known fact that SJ is a control-freak. In fact it's well enough known, that I'm sure any company that has major deals with Apple takes that into account.

Darn, I promised myself I wouldn't get re-involved in this thread and here I am trying to convince people again.

d_jk
Jun 4, 2004, 04:01 PM
This story seems to state that information was released to say that this new 60GB drive would be used in forthcoming iPods. The article does not say that at all. It says that the drives are being released and that Apple is buying some of them. It does NOT state what they will be used for. Their use in iPods would seem to be the most obvious use but is by no means guaranteed.

Misplaced Mage
Jun 4, 2004, 04:15 PM
This story seems to state that information was released to say that this new 60GB drive would be used in forthcoming iPods. The article does not say that at all. It says that the drives are being released and that Apple is buying some of them. It does NOT state what they will be used for. Their use in iPods would seem to be the most obvious use but is by no means guaranteed.

Agreed. This really comes down to whether or not Toshiba has violated an NDA with Apple over the disclosure of the sale, though I'm sure the implied product roadmap leak enters into it. Either way, Apple's reacting the way I'd expect them to. :D

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 04:43 PM
Interestingly enough, it's when Jesus Christ was crucified that his career really took off.

Christ I am not... in fact I am a Buddhist so I doubt my career would be helped by violating an NDA. :)

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 04:48 PM
That is the most bizarre, inaccurate, and completely made up assessment of the situation that I have seen so far. It is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.

Frank

Try.

The assessment is far from made up. The assessment comes from past experiences including G5 issues, i.e. the powersupply noise, that one would hope is being addressed in this latest revision. [The difference between early adopters and those that wait for the next revision with all of the kinks worked out.]

The part about those not being early adopters [and waiting for the next revision] comes from talking with developers and the like at the previous 2 (<--- key-number ) WWDC confferences I attended and the most repeated statement [at this last WWDC2003]was, "I am going to wait for the next revision before I buy one."[The other most repeated statement was made by those who boasted about liking to get their hands on the technology as soon as it is released, and that was "I am going to get one of those things as soon as possible."]

If it is wrong on so many levels, it should be a snap to ffind where to start. Give it a shot.


S.

seraphnyc
Jun 4, 2004, 04:51 PM
And you don't see a difference between a CEO of a company talking about his own products, a marketing droid from another company talking about somebody else's products?

And as for a previous commment, actually it's a well known fact that SJ is a control-freak. In fact it's well enough known, that I'm sure any company that has major deals with Apple takes that into account.

Darn, I promised myself I wouldn't get re-involved in this thread and here I am trying to convince people again.

I am finding that it is hard to convince anyone who has already made up their mind and would refuse to even attempt to see another point of view.
Besides being involved and at least sharing a point of view that makes sense is perfectly ok.

S.

Sorry for the multple posts.

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 05:59 PM
What Michael Vance called a boondoggle was Jobs' announcement a year ago about Summer's 3Ghz machines. His assessment was that it hurt the intial 2Ghz G5 sales because people knew a YEAR OUT about the 3GHz machines. No one said anything about the people who need to buy NOW and waiting to see what WWDC has to offer. Of course, only a fool, those truly in need or those who aren't in the know would go out and buy a computer right now. But we weren't discussing that left-field topic.

Again, smart decision. But, I wasn't discussing potential customers of today, I was talking about customers of a year ago.

You are incorrect in your assessment. He never said anything about the sales from one year ago. He said sales in general which means from release until now and anytime in between. Apple tracks their sales by quarter. The announcement that Steve made will have the same affect the quarter before the WWDC as the "Toshiba announcement" could have on the iPod sales in this quarter before September.

Frank

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 06:09 PM
And you don't see a difference between a CEO of a company talking about his own products, a marketing droid from another company talking about somebody else's products?

And as for a previous commment, actually it's a well known fact that SJ is a control-freak. In fact it's well enough known, that I'm sure any company that has major deals with Apple takes that into account.

Darn, I promised myself I wouldn't get re-involved in this thread and here I am trying to convince people again.

You appear to be confused. Toshiba didn't announce any Apple products so your comparison falters there. The point that we are making is not in regards to who can announce products. It was in response to people saying that the announcement would affect sales. Therefore you can draw a direct comparison to Steve Jobs announcing a product a full year in advance to Toshiba announcing a product that might be used in an updated product in the next few months. People are saying that the Toshiba announcement would adversely affect sales because people will stop buying iPods until the new models come out. Wouldn't the same thing happen with G5s at some point in the 12 months that Steve said new models are forthcoming? And which would hurt Apple more? They make a lot more money selling G5s than they do selling iPods.

So if you want to take the Toshiba announcement and mix it in with your supposition of how Steve would react feel free to keep going. The rest of us will be over here in the real world where we knew that bigger iPods were coming before Toshiba ever said anything.

Frank

stcanard
Jun 4, 2004, 06:26 PM
So if you want to take the Toshiba announcement and mix it in with your supposition of how Steve would react feel free to keep going.

Frank

But the point is that Toshiba announced that Apple was buying their new 60GB hard-drives. This in turn created articles on BBC, and The Globe and Mail (that I know of) announcing Apple will be upgrading the iPod to 60GB.

Now had Toshiba announced the 60GB drives, without mentioning Apple, do you think those articles would have been writtten with that headline?

The rest of us will be over here in the real world where we knew that bigger iPods were coming before Toshiba ever said anything.

My Dad's in the market for an iPod, he didn't think about the fact that bigger ones are coming. He sure as heck saw the article in the Globe this morning.

Don't confuse the people that read this site with Apple's target market for an iPod.

But we're still arguing a non-issue. The point is that you can absolutely bet that the Toshiba announcement violated a contract with Apple. The quotes in the article said as much. Of course Apple is going to be upset at a violated contract.

If you bought a year's apple care, and after 6 months they said they changed their mind (i.e. violated the contract) I bet you'd be pretty unhappy too.

Soire
Jun 4, 2004, 07:56 PM
What happened to the rumor of 50gig hardrives!?

If anybody can find an update of the 50gb toshiba drives, I would be most appreciative. Also here's how I see it if the 50gigers DO exist and are being produced:

-At WWDC the 4th Gen. iPods will be released with the top end being 50gb

-Given that the 60gig Toshiba drives aren't even rumored to be going into full production until july or august, I'm guessing that the 60gig revisions won't be released until christmas or MWSF.

-On top of all this, I think people are forgetting that Apple has never jumped more than 10 gigs in a revision. 10 IS THE YARDSTICK OF REVISION.

-It's been, what 9 months since they upgraded the biggest one? I think they're due.

-Plus, I need to buy one, and the personalization promo ends on the same date as the memory and brilliant savings one... coincidence?

Just my thoughts... :D

Squire
Jun 4, 2004, 08:50 PM
You have a lot more faith in the media than I do (and I work in the media).

I didn't say that I had faith in the media. (And I apologize for not articulating myself more clearly.) I said that "...any argument here must include (or at least make reference to) a few assumptions..." and that one of those assumptions was believing what was actually written in the media. In other words, if you don't believe what was reported in the first place, this thread should not really interest you.

And you don't see a difference between a CEO of a company talking about his own products, a marketing droid from another company talking about somebody else's products?

And as for a previous commment, actually it's a well known fact that SJ is a control-freak. In fact it's well enough known, that I'm sure any company that has major deals with Apple takes that into account.

Darn, I promised myself I wouldn't get re-involved in this thread and here I am trying to convince people again.

And for a second time in this thread, I find myself quoting you, stcanard. Yes! Steve Jobs can basically say whatever he damn well pleases without breaking any "rules." Toshiba, so it seems, broke the "rules."

Squire

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 08:58 PM
My Dad's in the market for an iPod, he didn't think about the fact that bigger ones are coming. He sure as heck saw the article in the Globe this morning.

I don't know how he caught that article. If he paid any attention to the iPod at all he couldn't help but notice the steady progression of larger drives every six months or so. Your argument is extremely weak in this regard.

But we're still arguing a non-issue. The point is that you can absolutely bet that the Toshiba announcement violated a contract with Apple. The quotes in the article said as much. Of course Apple is going to be upset at a violated contract.

That is complete supposition on your part. You have no facts to back up that statement but you act as though it is completely true. You and others in this forum have been blowing so much hot air based on things that you made up in your heads. Get over it. It looks like you are all more mad than Steve Jobs could ever be.

Why don't you all just boycott Toshiba. Maybe it will make you feel better.

Frank

frankly
Jun 4, 2004, 09:08 PM
What happened to the rumor of 50gig hardrives!?

If anybody can find an update of the 50gb toshiba drives, I would be most appreciative. Also here's how I see it if the 50gigers DO exist and are being produced:

-At WWDC the 4th Gen. iPods will be released with the top end being 50gb

-Given that the 60gig Toshiba drives aren't even rumored to be going into full production until july or august, I'm guessing that the 60gig revisions won't be released until christmas or MWSF.

-On top of all this, I think people are forgetting that Apple has never jumped more than 10 gigs in a revision. 10 IS THE YARDSTICK OF REVISION.

-It's been, what 9 months since they upgraded the biggest one? I think they're due.

-Plus, I need to buy one, and the personalization promo ends on the same date as the memory and brilliant savings one... coincidence?

Just my thoughts... :D

I think these 50GB drives exist only in your mind. Search and see if you can find them.

Also, 10 is the yardstick? What about when we went from 5 to 10?

Have you found that 50GB drive yet? Do you remember ever seeing a 50GB drive? In an MP3 player? A notebook computer? A desktop?

Frank

Squire
Jun 4, 2004, 09:40 PM
I don't know how he caught that article. If he paid any attention to the iPod at all he couldn't help but notice the steady progression of larger drives every six months or so. Your argument is extremely weak in this regard.

I believe he said he saw it on the front page of Canada's leading newspaper. That's how he "caught" it. By the sounds of things, it would be pretty hard to miss. As far as people following the progression of electronics, that's most likely the exception not the rule. I think most people interested in buying an mp3 player would just get the cash together and buy it. (Remember: for the most part, the people on this board are not indicative of the average consumer.) So, I don't see how the argument would be considered weak.

That is complete supposition on your part. You have no facts to back up that statement but you act as though it is completely true. You and others in this forum have been blowing so much hot air based on things that you made up in your heads. Get over it. It looks like you are all more mad than Steve Jobs could ever be.

Why don't you all just boycott Toshiba. Maybe it will make you feel better.

Frank

You're right in that we are assuming that Apple and Toshiba have an NDA. However, it is a good assumption; it's not "hot air" as you so eloquently put it. As far as facts are concerned, well, I wasn't present when Apple and Toshiba made any agreements. However, this article from Electronics Design Chain Magazine does support our point.

http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=summer02

Here are a few excerpts (my bold):

Although no one could accuse Apple, let alone Jobs, of being shy about product promotion, it's a different story when it comes to its engineering and building processes. The company has always been tighter lipped than the Pentagon when it comes to releasing design chain details.

...and further down in the article...

Because of the unusually restrictive nondisclosure agreements in place among Apple, PortalPlayer and other members of the sub-design chain, key officials were not able to directly comment on their work with Apple. However, some members of the subchain provided Electronics Design Chain Magazine with a glimpse inside the iPod core.

Squire

pjkelnhofer
Jun 5, 2004, 01:25 PM
But the point is that Toshiba announced that Apple was buying their new 60GB hard-drives. This in turn created articles on BBC, and The Globe and Mail (that I know of) announcing Apple will be upgrading the iPod to 60GB.

So Toshiba said nothing about the iPod being upgraded at all, simply that they were going to start making 60GB drives and that Apple would be buying them. The Globe and Mail came to the conclusion that the iPods were being upgraded. The 60GB drives that Apple is buying could be destined for a totally new product (if they are Apple's anger actually would make sense to me). It is the journalists in question jumping to conclusions and presenting them as facts that is really causing the problem.

BeoVir
Jun 5, 2004, 02:08 PM
So Toshiba said nothing about the iPod being upgraded at all, simply that they were going to start making 60GB drives and that Apple would be buying them. The Globe and Mail came to the conclusion that the iPods were being upgraded. The 60GB drives that Apple is buying could be destined for a totally new product (if they are Apple's anger actually would make sense to me). It is the journalists in question jumping to conclusions and presenting them as facts that is really causing the problem.

60GB Zire killer! A video and music playing iPod with PDA function would rock!!

Could these drives be put in a laptop? As in to save power or space. Are they fast enough for that?

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 6, 2004, 08:13 AM
60GB Zire killer! A video and music playing iPod with PDA function would rock!!

Could these drives be put in a laptop? As in to save power or space. Are they fast enough for that?

Or maybe a Apple "Libretto"

http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/pc/catalog/ff/ff1100/index_j.htm

Now that would rock for the digital photographer among us.

spinko
Jun 7, 2004, 01:54 AM
Hehe, I can really imagine Steve Jobs sitting in his office throwing something through the room, because one of his secrets was revealed.

Honestly, why is Apple this secretive? Even if Toshiba didn't say that the harddisks were for Apple, everyone would have guessed so and it's not like we don't buy anymore, because there might be a 60GB in the future, because a size bump has been quite probable.

But Apple's anger points to a release that is quite a bit away.

exactly, SJ is acting like a spoiled brat.

hayesk
Jun 7, 2004, 12:25 PM
Well, I just bought a 15GB, but I'm not sad about it. That'll be more than I'll ever need anyway.

Hmm... you could have saved $50 and bought the mini. :p

Stevp1
Jun 7, 2004, 04:39 PM
Hmm... you could have saved $50 and bought the mini. :p

I thought about that, but for 50 bucks, the extra storage was more valuable than the size.