whoa I just looked at the dual 2.5GHz g5 watercooling it's mad!!!

[Mord]

I just looked in the new updated g5 service manual and the watercooling set apple used looks insane

I cant post the picture here due to apple legal but add Hectoruk@mac.com to your ichat and i can "discuss it"

(imagine me doing air quotations when i typed "discuss it")

it is truly the craziest watercooling i have ever seen it reminds me of the japanese watercooled dreamcast

[dopefiend]

I cant post the picture here due to apple legal but add Hectoruk@mac.com to your ichat and i can "discuss it"

Yes you can, go ahead.

[Mord]

no i cant I learnt that when i posted a picture of a blue quicksilver

[Mord]

I also noticed that the dual 2.5GHz g5 has one big processor cover just like the one in the apple insider picture but the logic board is not like the one in those pictures

the dual 2.5 has quite a few different parts for example it has a better power supply

[Coolvirus007]

where does it mention that you cant post pictures of current products. Your not making a profit from it.

[Mord]

it says in big letters at the bottom do not distribute this media copright apple or somthing like that

if you want to see it add yourself to my ichat list

[edesignuk]

if you want to see it add yourself to my ichat list
How is this different to you just posting it on some webspace somehere and giving us a link?

(e-mail it to me and I'll host if you like!)

[Mord]

because apple legal will stumble apon it thats why

[edesignuk]

because apple legal wont stumble apon it thats why
They won't stumble upon it when I zip it and call it something else either ;) :D C'mon!!! E-mail it to me!

[Mord]

ah screw it grab it while you can

[Mord]

heres the bottom of it

it's all one unit as a service part

[Mord]

and heres the cover

[redAPPLE]

that's the real reason why it took so long to update the g5s.

i ain't not expert in water cooling systems, so can someone tell me, what advantages it has?

less power consumption?

[Mord]

that's the real reason why it took so long to update the g5s.

i ain't not expert in water cooling systems, so can someone tell me, what advantages it has?

less power consumption?

well it's cool and dose not make much noise thats about all there is to it

watercooling is an established technology so it would not of taken that long to develop getting 2.5GHz g5's from IBM was the problem

[edesignuk]

i ain't not expert in water cooling systems, so can someone tell me, what advantages it has?

Liquid passes over the processor to carry the heat away with it, there is also a regluar fan on top of it in this case by the looks of things to help out. The heated water then passes through a radiator/heater core to dispense the heat before going over the processor again and so it continues. That's how it normally works.

[belair]

What is the cost involved with such a cooling device. Does it justify the price of the G5 or is the cost more likely due to yield problems of IBM.
:confused:
And also, what is the noise reduction, in real life. My G3 fan is just making me crazy when I want to read like a book and my mac is on standby.

[Mord]

you can replace the fan with a quieter one that has the same cfm rating
the 120mm fan makes the most noise

watercooling is not too expensive the g5 is not expensive configure a dual opteron or xeon and see how much they cost the only reason they look expensive is because apple dose not do low end

[belair]

Thanks for the info. Dont get me wrong here. I know mac is definetely good value for the buck. My old G3 did a great job during university and it even was good enough to make some money with as a free lance designer. A lot of my friends, have smoked several PC's during that time, literally.
I was just wondering if the cooling was an expensive "tour de force" or not and if my new 2,5 liquid cooled g5, I ordered yesteday, was going to be easier on the ears than my old machine. No chirping an kreeking like the rev a G5's. Fingers crossed.

[yoman]

those pictures are interesting! Hector, You say its one serviceable unit. Hmm... So if this sucker breaks or leakes then you have to have the whole thing replaced. Ouch. I wonder what could be the price on this unit

[reorx]

Sweet! That's a pretty serious effort, the radiator is huge! Looks like the heater core for a car... :D

[Sun Baked]

The explanation was it's a power density issue related to the same power dissipation in a smaller area that led to the need for more efficient cooling.

Doesn't make the possibility of the 970fx in a laptop sound very possitive, while they are technically the same numbers as some of the 7457s, they are cranking out that same heat from a smaller area.

[PlaceofDis]

it will be amazing to see this in a laptop considering what is needed to cool it in a tower. I dont expect g5 laptops anytime soon, but im sure apple is hard at work with it, its gonna be interesting to see when they finially figure it out

[jared_kipe]

The way I understand it, the two most important things to water cooling (barring breakage) is radiator and reservoir. The radiator does it's purpose just like a normal heat-sink, being that it merely cools stuff. The reservoir is the part most people over look and the most important in my opinion. The larger the reservoir the more water there is to heat up, and thus the longer it takes to heat all of it. This means that if the G5 had a reasonable size reservoir (which I don't really see) then it could practically run silent, because even when the CPU(s) are running 100% the water all of the water in the system wouldn't get too warm and thus could be cooled slowly over a longer period of time. The only problem would be if it ran 100% all the time, then thats where radiator construction comes in.

It is now that I would like to point out there are heat pipes running under the the logic board that are near, but not actually under, the CPUs. Does anybody know what that is all about? Possibly some kind of system bus?

[ClimbingTheLog]

those pictures are interesting! Hector, You say its one serviceable unit. Hmm... So if this sucker breaks or leakes then you have to have the whole thing replaced. Ouch. I wonder what could be the price on this unit

Repeat after me: AppleCare is part of the price, AppleCare is part of the price...

[stingerman]

it will be amazing to see this in a laptop considering what is needed to cool it in a tower. I dont expect g5 laptops anytime soon, but im sure apple is hard at work with it, its gonna be interesting to see when they finially figure it out
IBM has been using watercooling in their thinkpads sinc 1999. It's an engineering challenge but hardly impossible. The first generation PB G5's will probably be a single core SOC design and thus have a lot more space for the cooling system. A derivative of the cooligy system makes sense. If they are based on the Power5 core they will also benefit from IBM's newer generation low-k dielectrics. Since the Power5 core is expected at 3GHz, under-clocking to 2GHz+ should put the notebooks in the sweet spot. All that and a robust SMT for the drooling Power user.

[stingerman]

The way I understand it, the two most important things to water cooling (barring breakage) is radiator and reservoir. The radiator does it's purpose just like a normal heat-sink, being that it merely cools stuff. The reservoir is the part most people over look and the most important in my opinion. The larger the reservoir the more water there is to heat up, and thus the longer it takes to heat all of it. This means that if the G5 had a reasonable size reservoir (which I don't really see) then it could practically run silent, because even when the CPU(s) are running 100% the water all of the water in the system wouldn't get too warm and thus could be cooled slowly over a longer period of time. The only problem would be if it ran 100% all the time, then thats where radiator construction comes in.

It is now that I would like to point out there are heat pipes running under the the logic board that are near, but not actually under, the CPUs. Does anybody know what that is all about? Possibly some kind of system bus?
Well in this case if you look at the radiator from the pictures Apple-X site posted, you'll notice that the pipes are a lot longer than they seem as they coil like a spring through the radiator sides (kind of like how your small intestines stay compact.) Thus allowing Apple to keep a larger volume of liquid through-out the whole system in a relatively small and efficient space by comparison to what PC modders use. The big black box on the bottom right of the unit, looks like the actual pump and that probably contains the reservoir. By keeping the liquid longer in the radiator Apple is probably gets the best cooling effectiveness while forcing the liquid to move more rapidly over the shorter length of the processors, thus allowing them to run the cooling in series over the two processors. Minor modifications in the heat sink of processor 2 over processor 1 would allow both of them to remain at relatively the same temperature. Couple that with the fact that the OS can bias threads to the cooler processor when the system is not being fully used.

[jared_kipe]

it will be amazing to see this in a laptop considering what is needed to cool it in a tower. I dont expect g5 laptops anytime soon, but im sure apple is hard at work with it, its gonna be interesting to see when they finially figure it out

Keep in mind that this is for a dual, and much faster, G5 configuration. For a laptop we could get away with perhaps a single thin radiator running side to side along the back hinge, tie in the bus and graphics chip into the line, and add a small reservoir. I strongly believe we could see this implementation any time soon by any computer manufacturer. There could be another way of passively cooling it by running it up and through the monitor.

[Counterfit]

There could be another way of passively cooling it by running it up and through the monitor. IBM is using a setup to do just this called a "thermal hinge (http://www.research.ibm.com/thinkresearch/pages/2001/20010808_cooling.shtml)".
On another note, do you think Apple would be using water in that system? If it ever breaks... :eek: I would think they would use something like that new liquid from Tyco so as not to damage any of the guts.

[jared_kipe]

People who are really worried about leaks in the PC Modding world usually silicone insulate the motherboard and CPU I don't see why this couldn't be done. Plus I was aware of IBM's use of liquid and the thermal hinge. Plus the people that make those insane laptops and desktops like L industries or something, they have a giant lowercase cursive L as their logo, use water cooling in their high-end laptops. And insane gas expansion cooling on desktops. I want to see the overclocked G5 using liquid nitrogen like tomshardware.com uses. And on another note, how hard do you think it would be to overclock dual 1.8s to run at like 1.9 or 2.0? I've never seen overclocked G5s.

[Rezet]

Heh. Nice...
Question is, will Virginia Tech be upgrading computers again ;)

[Abstract]

The way I understand it, the two most important things to water cooling (barring breakage) is radiator and reservoir. The radiator does it's purpose just like a normal heat-sink, being that it merely cools stuff. The reservoir is the part most people over look and the most important in my opinion. The larger the reservoir the more water there is to heat up, and thus the longer it takes to heat all of it. This means that if the G5 had a reasonable size reservoir (which I don't really see) then it could practically run silent, because even when the CPU(s) are running 100% the water all of the water in the system wouldn't get too warm and thus could be cooled slowly over a longer period of time. The only problem would be if it ran 100% all the time, then thats where radiator construction comes in.

It is now that I would like to point out there are heat pipes running under the the logic board that are near, but not actually under, the CPUs. Does anybody know what that is all about? Possibly some kind of system bus?

Thanks for the info. Here's a question though: I understand that water is good for cooling because of its high specific heat capacity, but once the water is heated, how is the water forced to lose the heat quickly enough to remain cool? Surely once the water gets warm, the water can't be efficient at picking up the heat from the cpu's anymore. Its simple thermodynamics, right?

[Macmaniac]

Man I wish I had that unit sitting in my house, its so cool:) Me want, me want, too bad I can't afford it.:(

[windowsblowsass]

People who are really worried about leaks in the PC Modding world usually silicone insulate the motherboard and CPU I don't see why this couldn't be done. Plus I was aware of IBM's use of liquid and the thermal hinge. Plus the people that make those insane laptops and desktops like L industries or something, they have a giant lowercase cursive L as their logo, use water cooling in their high-end laptops. And insane gas expansion cooling on desktops. I want to see the overclocked G5 using liquid nitrogen like tomshardware.com uses. And on another note, how hard do you think it would be to overclock dual 1.8s to run at like 1.9 or 2.0? I've never seen overclocked G5s.
arent the dual 2s overclocked 1.8s ?

[LethalWolfe]

Thanks for the info. Here's a question though: I understand that water is good for cooling because of its high specific heat capacity, but once the water is heated, how is the water forced to lose the heat quickly enough to remain cool? Surely once the water gets warm, the water can't be efficient at picking up the heat from the cpu's anymore. Its simple thermodynamics, right?


The water cools down enough to keep the chips from getting too hot. The water itself doesn't have to be "cold" it just has to be cooler than the chips. Just like the coolant in a car. The coolant gets very, very hot but it still cools the engine off.


Lethal

[Mord]

It's annoying that the dual 2.5GHz unit is one unit with the watercooling

that means that if one prosessor go's both have to be replaced and you couldent order that watercooling set from apple as a service part plonk it on a dual 2.0GHZ and overclock to 2.5 like many dual 1.25GHz g4 owners did with the dual 1.42GHz copper heatsink

[Coolvirus007]

How do you refill the thing if the water (or whatever you fill it with) supply goes low? And even worse... how can you tell when to fill it up.

[edesignuk]

How do you refill the thing if the water (or whatever you fill it with) supply goes low? And even worse... how can you tell when to fill it up.
It's not water, it's only part water. It's mostly a mix of other special liquids so that it does not need bleeding and refilling all the time as with most water cooling systems. At least from what I can make out that's what they've doen.

[spaceballl]

i ain't not expert in water cooling systems, so can someone tell me, what advantages it has?
I've been watercooling my PC for years now. It has a lot of advantages. They way it works, at the most basic level, is that water is pumped into a waterblock that sits on top of the CPU. The CPU heat transfers to the water and the hot water is pumped away to a radiator where the heat gets dissipated.

It can be far quieter than air cooling. Also, it is more efficient than air cooling too. The main drawbacks are having to have a pump and the "possibility" of a leak (not too likely if it is built well). Also, if the water isn't treated, after a while, mold and corrosion build so hopefully Apple (i'm sure they did) took the proper steps to ensure that wouldn't happen.
-Kevin

[edesignuk]

More (http://tracker.yo-momma.net/tracker.php?id=7) pics for you all (already posted in the other thread) just in case you're interested.

[jared_kipe]

Thanks for the info. Here's a question though: I understand that water is good for cooling because of its high specific heat capacity, but once the water is heated, how is the water forced to lose the heat quickly enough to remain cool? Surely once the water gets warm, the water can't be efficient at picking up the heat from the cpu's anymore. Its simple thermodynamics, right?

The reason it works so well is because a CPU only has a little tinny area over which to give off it's heat. With the water cooling, the water picks up the heat, and then runs through many loops of a radiator. Because it has so much more surface area, it can give away it's heat better.

Oh and to whomever said it that as long as the water was cooler than the CPU, even if it was very close, is only part correct. It will continue to cool, but not nearly as well as if the water was near room temperature. Newton's laws of cooling states that the rate of cooling is porportional to the difference between the temperatures. So it will work much better if that difference is high.

[JLaFrance]

so am i going to have to top-off my G5 every once in while? :rolleyes: :p

[BornAgainMac]

I don't know the big deal about this water cooling stuff. I just put my G5 in the bathtub or shower when it gets hot.
;)

[Chip NoVaMac]

Any thoughts as to the "longevity" of the water cooling system. Many of us are used to systems lasting 5 to 10+ years on the Mac systems without issues.

I guess the question is what is the MTF for water cooling systems?

[yoman]

Any thoughts as to the "longevity" of the water cooling system. Many of us are used to systems lasting 5 to 10+ years on the Mac systems without issues.

I guess the question is what is the MTF for water cooling systems?

thats what I'm thinking too. I am wavering between the Dual 2 and 2.5 b/c of this reason. I figure if the air cooling is suffering in the dual 2 five years down the road I can just replace a fan or two. However for dual 2.5 I don't know where I could get a dual processor Radiator! :)

[Xenious]

Any thoughts as to the "longevity" of the water cooling system. Many of us are used to systems lasting 5 to 10+ years on the Mac systems without issues.

I guess the question is what is the MTF for water cooling systems?

My Sega Dreamcast has a water cooled system in it and is still ok after 5 years. I would expect this one to do as well. Tho depending on the advancement of technology after 5 years the G5's might not run the latest software. Who knows what advances are coming.

[Mord]

My Sega Dreamcast has a water cooled system in it and is still ok after 5 years. I would expect this one to do as well. Tho depending on the advancement of technology after 5 years the G5's might not run the latest software. Who knows what advances are coming.


sorry to burst you bubble but unless you have a japanese dreamcast you to not have watercooling. the nstc and pall dreamcastes used a fan instead

[Chip NoVaMac]

My Sega Dreamcast has a water cooled system in it and is still ok after 5 years. I would expect this one to do as well. Tho depending on the advancement of technology after 5 years the G5's might not run the latest software. Who knows what advances are coming.

It may not run the latest software 5 years from now, but many users don't always go that route. Ask some production houses that are running Quark 3, 4, and %; along with Photoshop 5, 6 and 7. :)

[wdlove]

It's annoying that the dual 2.5GHz unit is one unit with the watercooling

that means that if one processor go's both have to be replaced and you couldn't order that watercooling set from apple as a service part plonk it on a dual 2.0GHZ and overclock to 2.5 like many dual 1.25GHz g4 owners did with the dual 1.42GHz copper heatsink

That is the very reason why AppleCare is so valuable. Just wonder is the cost will be higher on this particular model?

[yoman]

That is the very reason why AppleCare is so valuable. Just wonder is the cost will be higher on this particular model?

unfortunately most problems happen during the first year of operation(Applecare included) or AFTER 3 years (when AppleCare Extended is gone).

The statisticians in apple know this. However I do wonder which is more reliable a air cooled system or a liquid cooled.

Car engines have been liquid and air cooled for ever and leaks don't happen that often, even though a Car is constantly vibrating,shaking and... well moving around. :)