Liquid Cooling Photos

[MacRumors]

Apple-x.net (http://www.apple-x.net) (not presently available) posted some photos of the new PowerMac G5 liquid cooling system.

HardMac (http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2004-06-12#2279) has mirrored one of the more detailed photographs.

According to the French site, "The liquid circulating inside the LCS [Liquid Cooling System] is made of 80% water supplemented with corrosion inhibitors, antifreeze, and bacterial growth preventatives".

[Ja Di ksw]

This isn't something you would have to get refilled, is it?

[PowerMacMan]

This isn't something you would have to get refilled, is it?

No never, that would be horendously weird.... "I gotta go refill my computer, it's out of liquid." :eek: :eek:

[arf]

I doubt it, seal unit at a guess. :rolleyes:

[nagromme]

Looks complicated and messy... glad they covered it up with that plate :)

And I think the computers that need to be "refilled" are home-made, amateur creations. I wouldn't expect anything like that with a PowerMac.

(PS, Some people immediately claimed that Apple's system provides adequate cooling to only one of the two processors. I highly doubt Apple engineers are that stupid! Others have countered that the liquid passing from one CPU to the other still has the capacity to draw away all the necessary heat--it hasn't been heated fully by the first CPU. Now that makes a little more sense...)

[macridah]

that looks cool ... no pun intended. can't wait until one of those babies hit the apple store so i could drive their to check it out in person.

[DMann]

Just wait and see how the rest follow..... :rolleyes:

[clonenode]

The "radiator" is on one side and the heat-sink fins from the "heat-pipes" are on the other side... makes me wonder where the fans blow and in what direction.

Pretty weird seeing rubber hosing inside a Mac!

[nagromme]

I noticed in some of the Apple-X photos (while they were still up--their host dropped them for using too much bandwidth, so they should return) that there are two fans blowing in a side-to-side direction (facing the front of the tower) near the rear. That's new too.

By the way, AppleInsider has some of the images too:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=501

[&RU]

but with all those pipes underneath, the fluid could be recirculated back through the radiator before it hits the second processor. It would be great to see the other pics.

Any ideas as to what those yellow arrows are about?

[gothamac]

Macs are starting to look like BMW's

[edesignuk]

More (http://tracker.yo-momma.net/tracker.php?id=7) pics as posted in the other threads on this subject.

[SolarisSkyrider]

The pipes are hidden behind a big heatsink? How disappointing. Apple should have put tubes all over and then made a side window. Or something.

OK, maybe they shouldn't do that. But I think someone will mod their G5 to do just that. :-D

[Soire]

No never, that would be horendously weird.... "I gotta go refill my computer, it's out of liquid." :eek: :eek:


Ha! that's a really funny picture.

.."you're running a quart low... better top 'er off..." :D

[Sun Baked]

The heat-pipes are coming off the power supply, and was there in the previous version.

The liquid cooling system basically looks like it replaces the stacked plates used to cool the CPUs before.

[clonenode]

but with all those pipes underneath, the fluid could be recirculated back through the radiator before it hits the second processor. It would be great to see the other pics.

Any ideas as to what those yellow arrows are about?
As part of the service documentation, the arrows indicate the direction to move the unit so that it can be taken out or installed.

[&RU]

Thanks clonenode, that makes sense and thanks for the additional pics edesignuk. The only thing I still don't understand is why they didn't mount the radiator flush with the back of the case so that the heat can be pushed out directly - as opposed to being a third of the way into the machine as it is now.

[clonenode]

The only thing I still don't understand is why they didn't mount the radiator flush with the back of the case so that the heat can be pushed out directly - as opposed to being a third of the way into the machine as it is now.
Yeah, the whole set-up puzzles me too. It looks like hot air from the radiator is going to be blown BACK over the CPUs. But, I guess that happens in a car, too.

Uh oh, not another Mac/Car comparison. Hope this is a BMW solution... not a Chevy.

[network23]

Looks complicated and messy... glad they covered it up with that plate :)

Oh I don't know. Looks kinda steampunk to me. I like it.

[&RU]

This must be their makeshift "drop it in and keep costs down" solution. Once they move the whole G5 line to liquid cooling, maybe then they will build it into the back.

I was hoping they would move to liquid cooling to free up some space inside the case, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

[hexor]

Eureka! Now we know what happened to the contents of all those lost/unavailable bottles of pepsi products with iTunes' caps.

[SpaceMagic]

Bacteria!

Yuk... swimming around mating in my G5... breeding "offa the fat of the land." - Of Mice and PPC970s' by John Steinsink.

[agentmouthwash]

Hon, the computer is down.
Time to call the plumber!

[benpatient]

well...that's elaborate enough that it shows how far behind apple is going to get. They must be stuck bad to be resorting to such drastic measures.



the only good thing i see about this is that there don't appear to be any liquid cooling tubes headed off towards the mobo...which means the processor is the only real problem they're having at high speeds....i wonder how fast the FSB will be able to go without a major revision...

1.25 and counting....

to the guy who suggested that now everyone else was going to follow suit, you should realize that small PC companies have been offering liquid cooled computers for a while now.

You can buy a case from this company in germany that has built in liquid cooling and will run a guaranteed speed of 4 ghz on a current P4 processor...tests have gotten it up to 4.4 and stable. athlon 64 chips will do over 3 ghz with that setup.

I haven't even been to their site since december, either...

[MacFan25]

Neat pictures, though I'm a little skeptical as to how the whole liquid cooling thing works. It definitley seems to be a great feat of engineering. However the engineers at Apple did it, I'm sure they did a fine job with it.

I've been reading that people with 2.5Ghz orders are expecting them to ship on or before August 2nd, which kind of sucks. Sounds like last summer around this time...

[nsb3000]

Apple-x.net (http://www.apple-x.net) (not presently available) posted some photos of the new PowerMac G5 liquid cooling system.

HardMac (http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2004-06-12#2279) has mirrored one of the more detailed photographs.

According to the French site, "The liquid circulating inside the LCS [Liquid Cooling System] is made of 80% water supplemented with corrosion inhibitors, antifreeze, and bacterial growth preventatives".


This makes me wonder about the prospects for a Powerbook G5...

[AndrewMT]

to the guy who suggested that now everyone else was going to follow suit, you should realize that small PC companies have been offering liquid cooled computers for a while now.

You can buy a case from this company in germany that has built in liquid cooling and will run a guaranteed speed of 4 ghz on a current P4 processor...tests have gotten it up to 4.4 and stable. athlon 64 chips will do over 3 ghz with that setup.

I haven't even been to their site since december, either...

What is this company? I'm going to but a pc until Apple offers PCI-Express.

[thogs_cave]

well...that's elaborate enough that it shows how far behind apple is going to get. They must be stuck bad to be resorting to such drastic measures.

Not drastic at all. I used to work in R&D for $LARGE_UNIX_HARDWARE company, and years ago we were looking at various types of liquid cooling. The is a huge advantage to it if done right - you can drastically reduce the size of the system, as well as power consumption and noise. If the CEO of said company hadn't have been so dead-set against it, we could've designed systems that were about 1/2 the size and with far fewer fans.

to the guy who suggested that now everyone else was going to follow suit, you should realize that small PC companies have been offering liquid cooled computers for a while now.\

There's a big difference between small, one-off companies building stuff and a very large vendor doing the same.

I'm really glad that LC is going mainstream, as I've been a huge fan of it for years. One of my current "projects" is a LC G4 Cube (the case had been cut into before I got it, or I would never have thought of it), as I think I can make it very quiet and long-lived.

[legion]

Shuttle PC has been offering liquid cooling for some time. I wouldn't call them one-off or necessarily small seeing as their distribution channels are quite large.

[Neodym]

Who said that Apple does not listen to its customers? Finally realizing their product portfolio is having a big gap between iMac and Powermac both price- and powerwise, they will introduce a third desktop line of computers.

The new unit is codenamed "Apple Sphere" and consists of a full globe (as opposed to the half globe on the current iMacs). Inside the machine will sit a single G5 (1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 GHz), as the added space from the full globe allows to implement liquid-cooling (basically the system from current Powermacs cut in half). MoBo will allow for max. 2GB Ram and sport entry level graphics from ATI. To lower heat dissipation & power consumption (and gain some space), the internal HD will be 2,5".

The housing has no external ports except for a power connector and a slot-like bay to place an external monitor (Apple TFT as BTO option), normally covered with a lid. All other connectors are put into an external breakout box, which is connected via wireless Firewire (probably multichannel - sources do not agree on that) and can be hidden underneath the table. USB 2.0 and FireWire 400 will be available as well as Audio I/O, DVI and some new connector (function unknown), looking like a shrunk Mini-Centronics. Prototypes have been experimenting with a special stand including motorized balls to tilt and swivel the main unit and a new power transmission based on induction, but both probably won't make it into production.

One prototype reportedly had a new type of housing, being able to change colour, freely adressable by AppleScript (e.g. to signalize incoming mail, show CPU load or logged-in user). Marketing wanted to have this "Chamaeleon skin", but management was reluctant, being afraid to repeat the Cube desaster. Final decision unknown by now.

The "Sphere" is planned to be the highlight at WWDC. iMac line will be refreshed, but stick to G4 (Dual possible), in order not to cannibalize the new model and cover the low-end. Together with (Quote) "agressive pricing" the new model is expected to boost sales again and adress the customers who lack the money for a Powermac but want more power than the iMac delivers.

[iriejedi]

How real is this - does not look anything like this: It looks more like a VESPA/motorcycle system


Macs are starting to look like BMW's

[Soire]

Excuse me for asking, but is the 2.5 really rated at 2.5 Ghz? Is it possible it's just a 2.0 Ghz chip that has liquid cooling?

I just ordered one, so perish the thought...

Anyways if it is in fact rated at 2.5Ghz, does that mean it's possible to achieve greater speeds than that? Does this puppy have a chance at reaching speeds beyond 2.5, or is that the max? ;)

[Bendit]

well...that's elaborate enough that it shows how far behind apple is going to get. They must be stuck bad to be resorting to such drastic measures.



the only good thing i see about this is that there don't appear to be any liquid cooling tubes headed off towards the mobo...which means the processor is the only real problem they're having at high speeds....i wonder how fast the FSB will be able to go without a major revision...

1.25 and counting....

to the guy who suggested that now everyone else was going to follow suit, you should realize that small PC companies have been offering liquid cooled computers for a while now.

You can buy a case from this company in germany that has built in liquid cooling and will run a guaranteed speed of 4 ghz on a current P4 processor...tests have gotten it up to 4.4 and stable. athlon 64 chips will do over 3 ghz with that setup.

I haven't even been to their site since december, either...

Why does everyone think these are drastic measures? they are not. Not so long ago no computers had heat syncs and people thought they were extreme. Now computers have giant heat syncs, 3-4 fans, and a heatsync and fan for their extreme video cards. This is not a bad sign. They probably would of been able to fan cool it but it would of been too loud, like most PCs.

[michaelb]

Is it possible it's just a 2.0 Ghz chip that has liquid cooling?

Well, the 2.5 GHz chip is a newer 90nm chip, the 1.8 and 2.0 GHz chips are 130 nm. Hopefully the newer technology has brought a clockspeed increase.

Anyways if it is in fact rated at 2.5Ghz, does that mean it's possible to achieve greater speeds than that? Does this puppy have a chance at reaching speeds beyond 2.5, or is that the max?

Possible certainly. It's just that no one yet (outside Apple of course) has worked out a way of overclocking G5s.

Gone are the days where you could change a jumper and bump up the clockspeed 20%. (Ah, G3 Yosemite and G4 Yikes, we miss you.)

[Soc7777777]

how would this thing last over time... this seems like something that could break easily and maybe ruin your entire computer.... 3 years in

[The Red Wolf]

So, what happens if it gets colder than -40 C? Do the pipes break?

Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)

Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)

Hopefully G5's won't be subjected to such cold temperatures, anti-freeze only works to some levels. -40° is cold, but arctic scientists have been known to work in colder temperatures. Just be sure to shut the door to the biodome.

Kidding aside, I think it's a wonderful step. As the technology is refined to mate with faster processors good things should come about. Sure Sony had a walkman dominating the market for ages before the iPod, but wouldn't it be cool if Apple made Liquid Cooling as revolutionary as the iPod? Keep it cool, just not below -40°.

[g4cubed]

I feel that they're having problems with 90nm and the heat. This isn't a solution but a fix that will get the 3GHz in the mac.
The water cooling system offers a lot of flexability in a lot of ways.

[PolarbearTed]

I can't say I'm particularly tech savy in the hardware domain, but it looks impressive. :)

[Flowbee]

The "Sphere" is planned to be the highlight at WWDC. iMac line will be refreshed, but stick to G4 (Dual possible), in order not to cannibalize the new model and cover the low-end. Together with (Quote) "agressive pricing" the new model is expected to boost sales again and adress the customers who lack the money for a Powermac but want more power than the iMac delivers.

Sorry, but that's one of the silliest 'predictions' I've ever read here.

[dr.Zoidberg]

Does anyone know if apple has patented or submitted for consideration any liquid cooling designs? Has IBM? This is an IBM chip, i wonder if IBM is going to be liquid cooling the Power5....

[jfw]

So, what happens if it gets colder than -40 C? Do the pipes break?

Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)

Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)


Actually, that's the same range specified for the G4 MDD systems, and probably for all other Macintoshes. At -40° C, it is possible that the chips might start cracking (silicon and metal/plastic do not have the same thermal coefficient of expansion). What's more likely, though, is that Apple only tests systems in these temperature ranges, and they aren't going to promise anything they don't test.

[pjkelnhofer]

...snip...
The "Sphere" is planned to be the highlight at WWDC. iMac line will be refreshed, but stick to G4 (Dual possible), in order not to cannibalize the new model and cover the low-end. Together with (Quote) "agressive pricing" the new model is expected to boost sales again and adress the customers who lack the money for a Powermac but want more power than the iMac delivers.

I think the overall prediction is way off base, but I do see the potention for a G5 redesigned iMac with the possibility of liquid cooling to keep the enclosure small. I don't think they will add another line of desktop computers (G4 eMacs, single G5 iMacs and dual G5 PowerMacs should be enough to satisfy everyone).

If the could get the G5 into an iMac with a built in LCD and a bottom end price of $1500 that would be amazing.

[wms121]

I have raved to some cohorts at TechFortWorth ( http://www.techfortworth.org local incubator and all-around nice place)...that with Apple's newer stuff...you could get "at-home processing" around 1.2 Teraflops within 2 years. The cooling system confirms it.

However:

1) Wouldn't a non-water based system be more efficient?

2) Can Apple support 4/8/16 processor systems using this method? (Yes IBM
might package multi-chip modules ...see IBM.com for "MCM" ..for special
Apple products)

3) Is Moto going to follow the "cooling path...or going to wait on "room-temp"
stuff?

4) Why can't we beg and plead for Steve Jobs and Scott McNeally and others
to make ONE MASTER UNIX box..that everyone likes. NASA won't let that
puppy go to Mars..RIGHT?

<--embedded bohemian in Cowtown

[jackieonasses]

water has one of the best heat transfers...so no.

[windowsblowsass]

Does anyone know if apple has patented or submitted for consideration any liquid cooling designs? Has IBM? This is an IBM chip, i wonder if IBM is going to be liquid cooling the Power5....

i think ibm is big into liquid cooling their actualling liquid cooling lap tops

[aussiemac86]

So, what happens if it gets colder than -40 C? Do the pipes break?

Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)

Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)

Hopefully G5's won't be subjected to such cold temperatures, anti-freeze only works to some levels. -40° is cold, but arctic scientists have been known to work in colder temperatures. Just be sure to shut the door to the biodome.



Ahh what about if it gets above 35ºC?, In summer we often have a week or more of 35º C plus days in a row. Does this mean i will not be able to use my Dual 2.5 for a large chunk of time in summer?

[PBGPowerbook]

Ahh what about if it gets above 35ºC?, In summer we often have a week or more of 35º C plus days in a row. Does this mean i will not be able to use my Dual 2.5 for a large chunk of time in summer?

Do you keep it outside?

[aussiemac86]

Do you keep it outside?


...Granted, its too early in the morning for me

[edgarj]

As far as reliability of this new water cooling set up goes, I work with a scientific machine (very very hot lasers with 3 sepparate water coolers (very similar, colsed loop/pump/radiator) which run 24/7 for years and no problem with fluid loss, leaks, corrosion. I have a fealing that most failures of this new Apple unit will be due to people tinkering with the system in various ways rather than actual hardware flaws. I mean, compared to a computer, this water cooling stuff is stone-aged science for the most part.

I'm still glad I opted for the Applecare on my new 2.5 though...

[Jeff Harrell]

PS, Some people immediately claimed that Apple's system provides adequate cooling to only one of the two processors.

Since it's water-based, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that it's not an immersion system. That is, the CPU's are not actually immersed in liquid. Rather, it looks like it might be what they call a cold plate system: the CPU's are attached to a metal heat-transfer plate that's cooled by the liquid-cooling system.

Cray did lots of neat things with liquid cooling over the years, and I know a bit about that. In a Cray T90, the main system boards were actually immersed in a tank of circulating fluorinert which was piped under the floor to big heat exchangers. The T3E and J90 liquid-cooled variants, on the other hand, used closed-loop cold-plate systems, which made them a lot cheaper to maintain. (Fluorinert is incredibly expensive stuff, I think.)

The big problem with water-cooling large computers is maintaining pressure during system maintenance. If you want to swap a board out while the system is running, you have to have some kind of mechanism for maintining the integrity of the cooling system. Apple has dodged this whole question, apparently, by making the system entirely self-contained. If you have any kind of problem with any part of the CPU-pump-heat exchanger module, the whole thing gets swapped out. At least, that's how it appears in those pictures.

Speaking of Cray, the connectors that join the CPU's to the system board look eerily like the CrayLink connectors that SGI designed for their Origin series of big computers. I wonder if that's just a case of parallel evolution among hardware designs.

[jsw]

How real is this - does not look anything like this: It looks more like a VESPA/motorcycle system

That pic makes a great desktop. Thanks!

[hello world]

If I had known that it would take filling a Mac with water to get a G5 processor to work in it, I would have bought my new G4 Powerbook MUCH earlier. Thought, I suppose the PB G5 rumors did get me to wait for the 33 Mhz speed bump - not that I notice the difference.

I always think of these things in terms of longevity. That liquid cooling thing looks like it would be the first thing to break.

[Engagebot]

Neat pictures, though I'm a little skeptical as to how the whole liquid cooling thing works. It definitley seems to be a great feat of engineering. However the engineers at Apple did it, I'm sure they did a fine job with it.

I've been reading that people with 2.5Ghz orders are expecting them to ship on or before August 2nd, which kind of sucks. Sounds like last summer around this time...


JEEZ

You people act like apple just invented something. Liquid cooling has been around for a LONG TIME. Go read up about it for god's sake.

This whole message board is like something from the twilight zone. A bunch of 'computer nerds' who know *jack* about computers.

Its like watching a bunch of monkeys poking at some kind of time travel machine or something.

[tex210]

I am reminded by everyone here how much I miss/romanticize my '67 VW Beetle. She was air cooled with fins and had no radiator. A very reliable auto. The engine was in the rear, providing traction. She was also extremely loud and hot. I hope someone can take something from that.

[thatwendigo]

Who said that Apple does not listen to its customers? Finally realizing their product portfolio is having a big gap between iMac and Powermac both price- and powerwise, they will introduce a third desktop line of computers.

I'll go out on a limb and treat this as a serious post.

Were Apple to introduce a third line of machines, I think it will have to be either a single-processor G5 tower that's intended as a consumer machine, or a really high-end workstation that actually taxes the liquid cooling system. A iMac-like non-iMac makes no marketing sense whatsoever. You might as well just kill the flat-panel iMacs and sell eMacs alone.

The new unit is codenamed "Apple Sphere" and consists of a full globe (as opposed to the half globe on the current iMacs).

A sphere? And what is this magical computer going to sit on? Do we have to go to a hobby store and buy those cast-iron potpourri stands to stick our computers in, or will apple offer some tripod system that lets you pretend it's a theodolite?


Inside the machine will sit a single G5 (1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 GHz), as the added space from the full globe allows to implement liquid-cooling (basically the system from current Powermacs cut in half). MoBo will allow for max. 2GB Ram and sport entry level graphics from ATI.

Liquid cooling would probably fit in the current machine if you had a headless design that only connected a monitor. The motherboards already allow for 2GB of RAM, though you have to take them out to get at one of the sticks, and entry-level graphics are the sort of thing that people have been whining about for ages. Since the new PowerMacs didn't get ATI X800 XTs, I find it hard to believe that the X300 entry level card is what you're talking about.

To lower heat dissipation & power consumption (and gain some space), the internal HD will be 2,5".

What?

The machine has double the internal volume of the current design, but you think it would add the unnecessary expense and, more importantly, reduced performance of a laptop HD? That's just silly.

The housing has no external ports except for a power connector and a slot-like bay to place an external monitor (Apple TFT as BTO option), normally covered with a lid. All other connectors are put into an external breakout box, which is connected via wireless Firewire (probably multichannel - sources do not agree on that) and can be hidden underneath the table.

Okay, this is now smelling even worse than before. "Wireless Firewire" is a transfer protocol, not an actual technology for moving data. It's going to be built on a standard that has yet to be finalized, known as 802.15.3, which wouldn't have the bandwidth to serve peripherals, nor the power to do so without a separate AC source for the so-called breakout box. Also, unless the LCD screen is powered by ADC, that's another powercord if you're not using an Apple display.

Someone's not checking their facts before they post.

USB 2.0 and FireWire 400 will be available as well as Audio I/O, DVI and some new connector (function unknown), looking like a shrunk Mini-Centronics.

USB2.0 for a single port is 480Mbit/s, FireWire 400 is 400Mbit/s, and yet the backbone for "Wireless FireWire" is planned to intro at 55Mbit/s, which doesn't even begin to feed the ports you've claimed are going to be in a wireless box. This says nothing of feeding the DVI port that you mentioned, but which can't be on the machine since the "housing has no external ports except for a power connector."

Oops.

Prototypes have been experimenting with a special stand including motorized balls to tilt and swivel the main unit and a new power transmission based on induction, but both probably won't make it into production.

Actuators to control the machine's position, on top of liquid cooling and laptop drives, not to mention cutting-edge wireless technology that does impossible things? I thought we were talking about the consumer machine, not something that would cost $5000 to build, let alone sell at a profit.

One prototype reportedly had a new type of housing, being able to change colour, freely adressable by AppleScript (e.g. to signalize incoming mail, show CPU load or logged-in user). Marketing wanted to have this "Chamaeleon skin", but management was reluctant, being afraid to repeat the Cube desaster. Final decision unknown by now.

This is the most likely thing that has been said so far.

The "Sphere" is planned to be the highlight at WWDC. iMac line will be refreshed, but stick to G4 (Dual possible), in order not to cannibalize the new model and cover the low-end. Together with (Quote) "agressive pricing" the new model is expected to boost sales again and adress the customers who lack the money for a Powermac but want more power than the iMac delivers.

Pardon me...

BWAHAHAHA! :D

That's the best thing yet. How in the world are they going to apply and "aggressive pricing" scheme to a machine with even more new technology than the PowerMacs?

[Mord]

glad to see you continuing with your epic posts thatwendigo

I posted these picture in the hardware section friday morning this is nothing that hasn't been seen before. yawn.


oh well

[aafuss1]

The cooling system used in the 2.5GHz G5 looks quite innovative to me. For a while now, PC users have been able to purchase water cooling kits for their PC's, but Apple's liquid cooling implementation is very neatly done and is better than most liquid cooling solutions on the market for Windows machines.

[Little Endian]

Does Anyone know or have an idea about how much hotter the 2.5Ghz G5 chips run? I know that the 130nm 2Ghz G5 chips actually ran at nearly 1/3 to 1/2 the temperature of a 3.4Ghz P4. I would not be suprised if the operating temperature of the new 2.5Ghz G5s are actually still cooler running than a P4 or for that matter even the Xeon chips. I have read that the 90nm 2.0 Ghz G5 chips in Xserve run at an even cooler temperature than the 130nm 1.8Ghz G5 chips. So with this in mind I think the LCS in the new Dual 2.5Ghz was not out of neccessity and the machine could have been air cooled albeit at the expenese of increased noise. I am hoping the LCS in the 2.5Ghz MP G5 is just a precursor of things to come, 2.5Ghz could have been done without LCS perhaps the LCS in the 2.5Ghz is a testbed that will prepare us for 3Ghz+ chips that would actually require it. All of this is speculation though until we actually find out the exact operating temperture of these new 2.5Ghz G5s. I think we are stuck at 2.5Ghz today not solely because of heat considerations but probably more so for very poor yields for 3.0Ghz G5 chips. I am quite confident that by the end of the year or by sometime in Jan 05 we will see 3.0Ghz machines announced and or shipping.

[AidenShaw]

Does Anyone know or have an idea about how much hotter the 2.5Ghz G5 chips run? I know that the 130nm 2Ghz G5 chips actually ran at nearly 1/3 to 1/2 the temperature of a 3.4Ghz P4.

There are really two somewhat related issues here. Temperature (degrees) and heat (watts).

The PPC970 series emits somewhat less heat (the specs for the 2.5 have not been released) than the top P4/Xeon systems - probably in the 1/2 to 2/3 range.

The 90nm PPC970fx, however, is a much smaller (in area) chip than the P4/Xeon. That means that the heat is much more concentrated - so the temperature is potentially much hotter. (Consider a 25 watt light bulb vs. a 25 watt soldering iron - the light bulb is much cooler due to the larger surface area, even though the heat is the same.)

Temperature, therefore, depends on the heat sink. Since silicon chips have a recommended temperature range, I suspect that that running temperature is probably pretty similar between the PPC970fx and the Pentiums - they'll both have good enough heat sinks to avoid getting too hot.


I think we are stuck at 2.5Ghz today not solely because of heat considerations but probably more so for very poor yields for 3.0Ghz G5 chips.

I suspect that Apple's use of the extreme cooling system is because they are overclocking the IBM chips. (It's happened before with Apple, right?) The chip might not be rated at 2.5GHz, but if kept cool enough some of them might work well enough.

One reason for this suspicion is that Apple is using 2.0GHz in the Xserve G5, not faster. IBM is also quoting 2.2 GHz for a future JS20 Blade. It's unusual to have such a gap in the specs of the chips, unless the 2.5 GHz are really overclocked 2.2 GHz.


This quote is great: (http://www.apple-x.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=962&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=87662d781995aaafc88835539bba2c50)

"Nitrile or rubber glove should be worn when handling an LCS [liquid cooling system] module that is leaking or suspected to be leaking.

Evidence of leaks would include corrosion around fittings in the LCS coolant system, a light green or red liquid present, or a slick or slimy feel when handling the part.

For leaks or spills, wipe up the fluid using rags, paper towels, or other suitable materials. Dispose of all cleaning materials according to local laws and regulations"

Seems to me to be a pretty extreme measure - especially if you need to take hazardous waste precautions when working on your computer!! :eek:

[jsw]

Thanks clonenode, that makes sense and thanks for the additional pics edesignuk. The only thing I still don't understand is why they didn't mount the radiator flush with the back of the case so that the heat can be pushed out directly - as opposed to being a third of the way into the machine as it is now.

I think the reasoning is that the current case has the fans mid-case, and so you'd want the radiator as close to the fans as possible. The fact that it blows back through the mechanism is an unfortunate side effect, but the alternative would have been to relocate the fans to the rear of the case and make them pull instead of push air, which might have been less efficient and certainly would have been louder.

At least this way, the radiator is cooled with ambient air, not air which has already been heated by the board (minor, minor thing).

I'm confused by the two heat pipe/radiators in the back of the setup (or, visually, on the lower left on the largest picture posted in the .sit file above). I can only assume that what they're sucking heat from couldn't be mounted on the other side of the board and so couldn't be cooled by the liquid cooling system.

[jsw]

I'll go out on a limb and treat this as a serious post.
That is an exceedingly long limb.

A sphere? And what is this magical computer going to sit on? Do we have to go to a hobby store and buy those cast-iron potpourri stands to stick our computers in, or will apple offer some tripod system that lets you pretend it's a theodolite?
I think it'll be something like here (http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&productId=53861&langId=-1&search=Y&searchKey=-833508589). I mean, what with the inductive power and wireless firewire, why have it touch anything at all?

Terribly bad Photoshop hack attached...

USB2.0 for a single port is 480Mbit/s, FireWire 400 is 400Mbit/s, and yet the backbone for "Wireless FireWire" is planned to intro at 55Mbit/s, which doesn't even begin to feed the ports you've claimed are going to be in a wireless box. This says nothing of feeding the DVI port that you mentioned, but which can't be on the machine since the "housing has no external ports except for a power connector."

Oops.
Well, maybe Apple has "Wireless FireWire 2.0" ready - perhaps it's done via a laser link. Wouldn't want any nasty cables.

Actuators to control the machine's position, on top of liquid cooling and laptop drives, not to mention cutting-edge wireless technology that does impossible things? I thought we were talking about the consumer machine, not something that would cost $5000 to build, let alone sell at a profit.
Well, you have to hand it to him, if they sold such a thing at under US$2K, I'm pretty sure Apple'd sell millions of them. I'd buy it for the wireless power supply, the advanced wireless 800Mbps+ technology, the floating sphere, and the liquid cooling system. I might be a bit put off by the small hard disk, but those laser communications devices do take up a lot of room.

[pjkelnhofer]

Seems to me to be a pretty extreme measure - especially if you need to take hazardous waste precautions when working on your computer!! :eek:

A lot of things in a computer are considered hazardous waste. Batteries, CRT tubes, and circuit boards are all considered harzardous was by the EPA (http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/osw/conserve/plugin/index.htm).

[AidenShaw]

A lot of things in a computer are considered hazardous waste.

Hazardous for disposal, not hazardous to work on.

;) Q: How can you tell a PowerMac repairman?

A: He's the one with the static strap on his HAZMAT suit !!

http://www.wfrfire.com/website/hazmat/hazmat/suit3.jpg

[wdlove]

As far as reliability of this new water cooling set up goes, I work with a scientific machine (very very hot lasers with 3 separate water coolers (very similar, closed loop/pump/radiator) which run 24/7 for years and no problem with fluid loss, leaks, corrosion. I have a feeling that most failures of this new Apple unit will be due to people tinkering with the system in various ways rather than actual hardware flaws. I mean, compared to a computer, this water cooling stuff is stone-aged science for the most part.

I'm still glad I opted for the Applecare on my new 2.5 though...

I'm one of those that doesn't tinker with my computer. It's good to know that Apple has built a solid system.

As aafuss1 commented that the cooling system in the G5 2.5 is more innovative than those found in the PC kits. Just what I would expect from Apple.

I also agree that the AppleCare is a necessity.

[army_guy]

to the guy who suggested that now everyone else was going to follow suit, you should realize that small PC companies have been offering liquid cooled computers for a while now.

You can buy a case from this company in germany that has built in liquid cooling and will run a guaranteed speed of 4 ghz on a current P4 processor...tests have gotten it up to 4.4 and stable. athlon 64 chips will do over 3 ghz with that setup.

I haven't even been to their site since december, either...

Liquid cooling for the pc has been around for ages since I can remember its only in the last 2 years companies have imergered selling specific components.


Apple said 3GHz, so where is it? I said they would run into cooling problems and that they would not make it and the mac boys were hopeing for 3GHz++.


As for the cooling system its just heatpipes nothing special, they were just adapted to handle more heat, so I dont know why apple calls it a "sophisticated liquid cooling system" and they designed it, err no. Dont compare this to properly built liquid cooling built by the likes of me and others, it doesnt compare in terms of performance and versatility so what if they have to br refiled but the cooland HAS to be changed simply because it impairs performance. (Alluminium and copper will react all you can do is slow it down)

Water is also out with the 3M Fluorinert coolant coming into use (higher performance, non conductive, non corrusive and doesnt need to be changed ever).

KLEOS

[Jeff Harrell]

Wow. It's been a while since I saw so many backwards ideas in one post.

Apple said 3GHz, so where is it?

I guess you missed IBM's announcement that they had more significant problems going to 90 nm than they anticipated. The "3 GHz by next summer" milestone was abandoned a while back.

As for the cooling system its just heatpipes nothing special

No, it's not a heat pipe system. A heat pipe system doesn't have a pump. This system has a pump. It's a closed-loop cold-plate system.

I dont know why apple calls it a "sophisticated liquid cooling system"

It's sophisticated, in part, because it uses both liquid cooling and air cooling at the same time. Check out the photos from the service manual. It's a dual system that can, undoubtedly, handle a great amount of heat with minimal airflow over the heat exchangers.

It's also sophisticated because it's entirely sealed and modular. No leaks, no muss, no fuss.

Water is also out with the 3M Fluorinert coolant coming into use (higher performance, non conductive, non corrusive and doesnt need to be changed ever).

You got that wrong, too. Fluorinert isn't "coming into use." It's been around for years and years. But because it's so expensive, it's only used for immersion cooling, where the electronics are actually dunked into a tank of liquid. (See the Cray 2 and the T90 for examples. They're basically aquariums filled with fluorinert, with circuit boards suspended in them.)

For obvious reasons, immersion cooling is unbelievably expensive and difficult to maintain. It's only suitable for very large supercomputers... and even in that arena, it's disappearing. Consider the brand-new Cray X1, one of the fastest commerically available computers in the world. It uses cold-plate cooling, not immersion cooling. And the coolant is just water. Tap water, right out of the building's water supply. (No need for antimicrobial agents because the water doesn't remain in the system. It circulates in from the municipal water supply, gets warmed by the machine, and circulates back out to the municipal supply again.)

No, there's nothing revolutionary about Apple's cooling system. But there's something pleasingly evolutionary about it. It'll let us run much hotter CPUs in our G5's without making them noisier, which is a big plus.

[army_guy]

Fluorinert is in use and is cheap in small quanities Armari UK quoted me £54 for 500ml when I bought some and you dont need to add anything to it like with water, there is no submerging. The advantages are non-conductive, higher performance, non corrusive and the coolant doesnt react will copper and allumium combinations.

If I remember isnt this the cooligy system?

Has apple implemented ant redundantcy with the pumps, I always have at least 2 pumps regardless and I can hotswap.

[Jeff Harrell]

Fluorinert is in use and is cheap in small quanities Armari UK quoted me £54 for 500ml

According to Calculator.app, £54 is $98, and 500 ml is a pint. Bottled water costs about 12¢ per pint. Water from the tap is so cheap by the pint that I can't even express it in terms of cents. The fractions are meaningless.

In other words, even bottled water bought retail is is eight hundred times cheaper than fluorinert.

I wouldn't call that "cheap in small quantities." I wouldn't call that cheap in any quantity at all.

[jsw]

No, it's not a heat pipe system. A heat pipe system doesn't have a pump. This system has a pump. It's a closed-loop cold-plate system.

I agree with just about the entire post, but, on this point - as a minor thing - I do think that, in addition to the pump system, there are two smaller heat pipes - at least that's what it looks like to me, attached to the heat sinks (not to the radiator). It looks like they are separate and not liquid cooled.

Of course, the pictures provided, while wonderful, aren't complete enough for me to be certain.

[jsw]

According to Calculator.app, £54 is $98, and 500 ml is a pint. Bottled water costs about 12¢ per pint. Water from the tap is so cheap by the pint that I can't even express it in terms of cents. The fractions are meaningless.

In other words, even bottled water bought retail is is eight hundred times cheaper than fluorinert.

I wouldn't call that "cheap in small quantities." I wouldn't call that cheap in any quantity at all.

As a rough guess, I think the system would take maybe 250ml of fluid or so, which would run maybe US$50. Not that horribly pricey, but 1/60th the price of the entire system. Too big a chunk. The water is probably ultrapure, so maybe it costs, oh, $1. At most. If shipped from the other side of the planet.

So I think Apple went with the cheapest solution that worked. Good for them. As far as dual pumps (army_guy) are concerned, I doubt that it would make much of a difference. Looks like you'd have to take the whole thing out anyway. One pump is simpler, cheaper, and sufficient. It's all self-contained, so I'm guessing that there will be very, very few maintenance issues. Redundant pumps would, cost aside, be nicer. But they likely aren't necessary. At least not on a dual-2.5.

[thatwendigo]

Does Anyone know or have an idea about how much hotter the 2.5Ghz G5 chips run? I know that the 130nm 2Ghz G5 chips actually ran at nearly 1/3 to 1/2 the temperature of a 3.4Ghz P4. I would not be suprised if the operating temperature of the new 2.5Ghz G5s are actually still cooler running than a P4 or for that matter even the Xeon chips.

The original 130nm 970 2.0ghz chip runs at 51 watts typical, and the 90nm revision 970fx 2.0ghz runs at 24.5 watts typical, 49 watts maximum. It could easily be the case that the 2.5ghz is running at a similar wattage to the original processor, but this presents a whole other problem.

The 970fx is produced on a 60mm^2 die, as opposed to the original 970's hefty 118mm^2 die, giving less than half the area to dissipate the heat. If we figure this on a wattage to area ratio, we come up with figures of:

130nm 970 2.0ghz (118mm^2)
--0.43watts per mm^2 (typical wattage of 51)
--0.86watts per mm^2 (maximum wattage of 102 - I'm assuming this figure from the typical)

90nm 970fx 2.0ghz (60mm^2)
--0.41watts per mm^2 (typical wattage of 24.5)
--0.81watts per mm^2 (maximum wattage of 49)

The coolings needs at the same clockrate remains the same with the lowered wattage, but if you force it to climb, then you see something else. Let's say that the 970fx at 2.5ghz is the same as the 130nm part at 2.0ghz:

90nm 970fx 2.5ghz (60mm^2)
--0.85watts per mm^2 (typical wattage of 51)
--1.7watts per mm^2 (maximum wattage of 102)

Suddenly, you have twice the heat per millimeter to be getting rid of! Here are numbers of the Northwoods and Prescott P4s, just for comparison:

130nm Pentium 4 Northwoods 3.4ghz (145mm^2)
--0.6watts perr mm^2 (typical wattage of 89)
--1.23watts per mm^2 (maximum of 178)

90nm Pentium 4 Prescott 3.4ghz (122mm^2)
--0.84watts per mm^2 (typical wattage of 103)
--1.68watts per mm^2 (maximum of 206)

Those who are astutely paying attention might notice that the 970fx and Prescott have similar wattage per mm ratings, but that the 970 is a vastly smaller core that still does some pretty impressive computing. The size is right at half the other chip's die.

So with this in mind I think the LCS in the new Dual 2.5Ghz was not out of neccessity and the machine could have been air cooled albeit at the expenese of increased noise. I am hoping the LCS in the 2.5Ghz MP G5 is just a precursor of things to come, 2.5Ghz could have been done without LCS perhaps the LCS in the 2.5Ghz is a testbed that will prepare us for 3Ghz+ chips that would actually require it.

Most likely the LCS is intended as a proof of concept, showing that Apple can create a system to cool the next generation of processors. As the process is ironed out and improvements are made, I expect to see the 970fx's heat profile inch down in wattage, but it's not there just yet. Interesting that a 90nm 2.0ghz chip uses two cores on a latency-prone SMP framework to equal the 3.4ghz Pentium 4 at the same heat expenditure but fewer watts overall.

---

Edit: Somehow, it's appropriate that my 666th post be one about the die size and heat of the Pentium 4. :D

[pjkelnhofer]

Most likely the LCS is intended as a proof of concept, showing that Apple can create a system to cool the next generation of processors. As the process is ironed out and improvements are made, I expect to see the 970fx's heat profile inch down in wattage, but it's not there just yet. Interesting that a 90nm 2.0ghz chip uses two cores on a latency-prone SMP framework to equal the 3.4ghz Pentium 4 at the same heat expenditure but fewer watts overall.

I totally agree (oh crap, this is like the second or third time I have agree with thatwendigo in the past week - maybe I am losing it). I don't understand why every one saying that the 2.5GHz G5 needs the Liquid Cooling. I suspect that it could have been cooled with the same heatsink and fans as the previous G5's. I think they learned there lesson with "WindTunnel" MDD G4's and wanted to keep noise down before it became a problem.

I agree with those that say it is a little scary to spend your money on brand new technology, remember that while Apple's LCS is new to them, the technology itself has been used in computers for quite some time now. I for one am excited to see Apple using it because it of the future possibilities it opens up.

[thatwendigo]

I think it'll be something like here (http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&productId=53861&langId=-1&search=Y&searchKey=-833508589). I mean, what with the inductive power and wireless firewire, why have it touch anything at all?

Why?

Interference. The more EM you involve in a design, the more potential for crosstalk and other issues, especially within enclosed spaces. This is the basic principle that's causing problems at the 90nm process size for everyone and their cousins. Additionally, I bet it would make it extraordinarily hard to use any 802-series wireless technology, because an inductive powersource would have to use a conductive surface that would, by its nature, be an EM source. Then there's the shielding for your RAM and drives, since you'd be pumping a nominally magnetic current all over the place...
Magnetism. As noted above, that globe is suspended by magnets. What do hard drives use to write? Magnets? Before someone points out that the PowerBook and iBook use magnetic latches, I'd like to add that a magnet strong enough to lift If you extrapolate screen sizes and weights from the iMac tech specs page (http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html) and the Apple Cinema Display page (http://www.apple.com/displays/asd17/), you come up with about 12 pounds of display and 10 pounds of computer. That means you'd need an electromagnet that would stably lift 20 pounds of computer. Good luck on not causing problems with that.
It's not currently possible to completely wirelessly interface 2 FireWire 400 ports, 3 USB 2.0 ports (that's 2160Mbit/s, or roughly twice the 150MB/s speed of wired SATA, right there), along with the audio and video-out. This. is. ridiculous.

Well, maybe Apple has "Wireless FireWire 2.0" ready - perhaps it's done via a laser link. Wouldn't want any nasty cables.

I repeat: 2160Mbit/s for the peripherals alone. That's more than 40 times the bandwidth of current 802.11g, and doesn't take into account anything other than firewire or USB. Also, unless you're running some kind off power cord to this mystial breakout box, you'd need a battery in it to provide the same kind of powering options you get from ports directly on the machine.

This is just stupid.

Well, you have to hand it to him, if they sold such a thing at under US$2K, I'm pretty sure Apple'd sell millions of them. I'd buy it for the wireless power supply, the advanced wireless 800Mbps+ technology, the floating sphere, and the liquid cooling system. I might be a bit put off by the small hard disk, but those laser communications devices do take up a lot of room.

Apple would go out of business if they tried to sell a machine like that. It wouldn't compete performancewise with a PC, it would be hideously overcomplex, and using way too much unproven technology. If people think that Apple's repair bills hurt now, imagine what happens when your liquid cooling system breaks down and leaks all over your induction power system, causing an electrical fire. Jesus.

Also, I don't know where you're getting this "wireless power supply" nonsense. No matter how it's done, there will always be wires, even if they're from some kind of base station to the wall.

[jsw]

Why?
Interference. The more EM you involve in a design, the more potential for crosstalk and other issues, especially within enclosed spaces. This is the basic principle that's causing problems at the 90nm process size for everyone and their cousins. Additionally, I bet it would make it extraordinarily hard to use any 802-series wireless technology, because an inductive powersource would have to use a conductive surface that would, by its nature, be an EM source. Then there's the shielding for your RAM and drives, since you'd be pumping a nominally magnetic current all over the place...

....


It must not have been apparent, but that post of mine was ENTIRELY tongue-in-cheek. Sorry! I was just kidding with the obviously off-the-wall stuff that was predicted.

[jsw]

On a lighter note, see here (http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/566.html) for a related cartoon.

From Cult of Mac:

"Apple's new Liquid Drooling System converts drool into dollars with help from the Hype Pump."

[Sun Baked]

I agree with just about the entire post, but, on this point - as a minor thing - I do think that, in addition to the pump system, there are two smaller heat pipes - at least that's what it looks like to me, attached to the heat sinks (not to the radiator). It looks like they are separate and not liquid cooled.

Of course, the pictures provided, while wonderful, aren't complete enough for me to be certain.There are two cooling zones, the Power Supply and the CPUs.

They both used heatpipes in the previous version and were two distinct units.

The heat-pipe running through the huge set of stamped/stacked plates was replaced by the LCS, the Power Supply's voltage regulators are still cooled by the remaining heat-pipe.

---

The daughtercards didn't change, only the massive stack of plates over the CPU.

[icon4x]

Uh, not for home users? Seems like trouble to me. More crap that can break and cause problems.

This will be great in humid climates when condensation starts to form on the copper tubing.

[jsw]

Uh, not for home users? Seems like trouble to me. More crap that can break and cause problems.

This will be great in humid climates when condensation starts to form on the copper tubing.

The pipes will never be below ambient temperature, so why would there be condensation? Or are you referring to something other than the LCS in the G5?

Nothing is refrigerated, just cooled by air flow.

[pjkelnhofer]

Uh, not for home users? Seems like trouble to me. More crap that can break and cause problems.

This will be great in humid climates when condensation starts to form on the copper tubing.

Condensation occurs when humid warmer air comes in contact with a cooler surface, since the LCS will be the hottest thing in the computer box condesation will not take place. This is not a refridgeration unit, it is simply a way to move heat away from the processor.

[michaelal]

how would this thing last over time... this seems like something that could break easily and maybe ruin your entire computer.... 3 years in

This really bothers me too! What happens when all the rubber seals start to get old? Do you end up with a big mess and does the computer self-destruct because of too much heat? Don't really know, just asking. :confused:

[pjkelnhofer]

This really bothers me too! What happens when all the rubber seals start to get old? Do you end up with a big mess and does the computer self-destruct because of too much heat? Don't really know, just asking. :confused:

I think that the Dual 2.5 GHz G5 will be obsolete before you have to worry about the seals drying out.

[ifjake]

liquid cooling makes me kinda nervous. so i'll wait till apple gets really good at it. so is it the clock cycles that make heat? i remember reading this (http://news.com.com/Chip+rewires+itself+on+the+fly/2100-1006_3-5199930.html) a while back and being incredibly intrigued.

[BanditBill]

I would check the inside for leaks periodically, but it wouldn't be a big concern to me. I do oilfield torque control in Canada. I transport computers in the back of a pick-up at -30C. Winch them up onto a rig floor. Put them in a +20C doghouse (office on rig) and power them up immediately. (A perfect recipe for humidity).

I've left non water resistant systems in the rain (by accident) without putting the lid on the transport box. The box got filled with 2"+ of rain. We let the system dry out and no problems.

Look at your car and the heat and pressure on a rad hose. Hoses are made for various pressure, temperature and fluid types.

If it's not leaking new and out of the box you will likely never, ever have a problem.

Bill

[BanditBill]

just thought I'd mention that I've been using these computers for more than 5 years and some of the units are more than 15 years old.

Bill

[pinkeye00]

You know something. I hacked in a water system to the Dual 867 G4 I had last year! This is nothing really strange. Its rather simply to put the kit in with a similiar setup.

Apple, hasn't done anything crazy here. The water techniques are 10 years old! IBM has a setup similiar to this in hiding for even longer than that for its big-blue projects.

Oh well. I'll see if I can't get the new owner to send me some pictures.

- john

[wdlove]

liquid cooling makes me kinda nervous. so i'll wait till apple gets really good at it. so is it the clock cycles that make heat? i remember reading this (http://news.com.com/Chip+rewires+itself+on+the+fly/2100-1006_3-5199930.html) a while back and being incredibly intrigued.

I don't see any reason to be nervous about the liquid cooling. Apple has thoroughly tested this prior to release. The backup is AppleCare.

[edgarj]

I'm not sure if this is already floating around on another thread, but Gizmodo posted these today (they were on TechSeekers, but removed at Apple's request).



http://techseekers.net/modules.php?ame=News&file=article&sid=3927

http://www.gizmodo.com/ (http://)