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Liquid Cooling Photos
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Not that far behind...
Not drastic at all. I used to work in R&D for $LARGE_UNIX_HARDWARE company, and years ago we were looking at various types of liquid cooling. The is a huge advantage to it if done right - you can drastically reduce the size of the system, as well as power consumption and noise. If the CEO of said company hadn't have been so dead-set against it, we could've designed systems that were about 1/2 the size and with far fewer fans.
There's a big difference between small, one-off companies building stuff and a very large vendor doing the same.
I'm really glad that LC is going mainstream, as I've been a huge fan of it for years. One of my current "projects" is a LC G4 Cube (the case had been cut into before I got it, or I would never have thought of it), as I think I can make it very quiet and long-lived.
benpatient said:
Not drastic at all. I used to work in R&D for $LARGE_UNIX_HARDWARE company, and years ago we were looking at various types of liquid cooling. The is a huge advantage to it if done right - you can drastically reduce the size of the system, as well as power consumption and noise. If the CEO of said company hadn't have been so dead-set against it, we could've designed systems that were about 1/2 the size and with far fewer fans.
benpatient said:
There's a big difference between small, one-off companies building stuff and a very large vendor doing the same.
I'm really glad that LC is going mainstream, as I've been a huge fan of it for years. One of my current "projects" is a LC G4 Cube (the case had been cut into before I got it, or I would never have thought of it), as I think I can make it very quiet and long-lived.
New prosumer Mac about to be introduced
Who said that Apple does not listen to its customers? Finally realizing their product portfolio is having a big gap between iMac and Powermac both price- and powerwise, they will introduce a third desktop line of computers.
The new unit is codenamed "Apple Sphere" and consists of a full globe (as opposed to the half globe on the current iMacs). Inside the machine will sit a single G5 (1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 GHz), as the added space from the full globe allows to implement liquid-cooling (basically the system from current Powermacs cut in half). MoBo will allow for max. 2GB Ram and sport entry level graphics from ATI. To lower heat dissipation & power consumption (and gain some space), the internal HD will be 2,5".
The housing has no external ports except for a power connector and a slot-like bay to place an external monitor (Apple TFT as BTO option), normally covered with a lid. All other connectors are put into an external breakout box, which is connected via wireless Firewire (probably multichannel - sources do not agree on that) and can be hidden underneath the table. USB 2.0 and FireWire 400 will be available as well as Audio I/O, DVI and some new connector (function unknown), looking like a shrunk Mini-Centronics. Prototypes have been experimenting with a special stand including motorized balls to tilt and swivel the main unit and a new power transmission based on induction, but both probably won't make it into production.
One prototype reportedly had a new type of housing, being able to change colour, freely adressable by AppleScript (e.g. to signalize incoming mail, show CPU load or logged-in user). Marketing wanted to have this "Chamaeleon skin", but management was reluctant, being afraid to repeat the Cube desaster. Final decision unknown by now.
The "Sphere" is planned to be the highlight at WWDC. iMac line will be refreshed, but stick to G4 (Dual possible), in order not to cannibalize the new model and cover the low-end. Together with (Quote) "agressive pricing" the new model is expected to boost sales again and adress the customers who lack the money for a Powermac but want more power than the iMac delivers.
Who said that Apple does not listen to its customers? Finally realizing their product portfolio is having a big gap between iMac and Powermac both price- and powerwise, they will introduce a third desktop line of computers.
The new unit is codenamed "Apple Sphere" and consists of a full globe (as opposed to the half globe on the current iMacs). Inside the machine will sit a single G5 (1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 GHz), as the added space from the full globe allows to implement liquid-cooling (basically the system from current Powermacs cut in half). MoBo will allow for max. 2GB Ram and sport entry level graphics from ATI. To lower heat dissipation & power consumption (and gain some space), the internal HD will be 2,5".
The housing has no external ports except for a power connector and a slot-like bay to place an external monitor (Apple TFT as BTO option), normally covered with a lid. All other connectors are put into an external breakout box, which is connected via wireless Firewire (probably multichannel - sources do not agree on that) and can be hidden underneath the table. USB 2.0 and FireWire 400 will be available as well as Audio I/O, DVI and some new connector (function unknown), looking like a shrunk Mini-Centronics. Prototypes have been experimenting with a special stand including motorized balls to tilt and swivel the main unit and a new power transmission based on induction, but both probably won't make it into production.
One prototype reportedly had a new type of housing, being able to change colour, freely adressable by AppleScript (e.g. to signalize incoming mail, show CPU load or logged-in user). Marketing wanted to have this "Chamaeleon skin", but management was reluctant, being afraid to repeat the Cube desaster. Final decision unknown by now.
The "Sphere" is planned to be the highlight at WWDC. iMac line will be refreshed, but stick to G4 (Dual possible), in order not to cannibalize the new model and cover the low-end. Together with (Quote) "agressive pricing" the new model is expected to boost sales again and adress the customers who lack the money for a Powermac but want more power than the iMac delivers.
Speed of the 2.5Ghz?
Excuse me for asking, but is the 2.5 really rated at 2.5 Ghz? Is it possible it's just a 2.0 Ghz chip that has liquid cooling?
I just ordered one, so perish the thought...
Anyways if it is in fact rated at 2.5Ghz, does that mean it's possible to achieve greater speeds than that? Does this puppy have a chance at reaching speeds beyond 2.5, or is that the max?
Excuse me for asking, but is the 2.5 really rated at 2.5 Ghz? Is it possible it's just a 2.0 Ghz chip that has liquid cooling?
I just ordered one, so perish the thought...
Anyways if it is in fact rated at 2.5Ghz, does that mean it's possible to achieve greater speeds than that? Does this puppy have a chance at reaching speeds beyond 2.5, or is that the max?
benpatient said:
Why does everyone think these are drastic measures? they are not. Not so long ago no computers had heat syncs and people thought they were extreme. Now computers have giant heat syncs, 3-4 fans, and a heatsync and fan for their extreme video cards. This is not a bad sign. They probably would of been able to fan cool it but it would of been too loud, like most PCs.
Soire said:
Well, the 2.5 GHz chip is a newer 90nm chip, the 1.8 and 2.0 GHz chips are 130 nm. Hopefully the newer technology has brought a clockspeed increase.
Anyways if it is in fact rated at 2.5Ghz, does that mean it's possible to achieve greater speeds than that? Does this puppy have a chance at reaching speeds beyond 2.5, or is that the max?
Possible certainly. It's just that no one yet (outside Apple of course) has worked out a way of overclocking G5s.
Gone are the days where you could change a jumper and bump up the clockspeed 20%. (Ah, G3 Yosemite and G4 Yikes, we miss you.)
question
how would this thing last over time... this seems like something that could break easily and maybe ruin your entire computer.... 3 years in
how would this thing last over time... this seems like something that could break easily and maybe ruin your entire computer.... 3 years in
Arctic PowerMac G5s
So, what happens if it gets colder than -40 C? Do the pipes break?
Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)
Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)
Hopefully G5's won't be subjected to such cold temperatures, anti-freeze only works to some levels. -40° is cold, but arctic scientists have been known to work in colder temperatures. Just be sure to shut the door to the biodome.
Kidding aside, I think it's a wonderful step. As the technology is refined to mate with faster processors good things should come about. Sure Sony had a walkman dominating the market for ages before the iPod, but wouldn't it be cool if Apple made Liquid Cooling as revolutionary as the iPod? Keep it cool, just not below -40°.
So, what happens if it gets colder than -40 C? Do the pipes break?
Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)
Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)
Hopefully G5's won't be subjected to such cold temperatures, anti-freeze only works to some levels. -40° is cold, but arctic scientists have been known to work in colder temperatures. Just be sure to shut the door to the biodome.
Kidding aside, I think it's a wonderful step. As the technology is refined to mate with faster processors good things should come about. Sure Sony had a walkman dominating the market for ages before the iPod, but wouldn't it be cool if Apple made Liquid Cooling as revolutionary as the iPod? Keep it cool, just not below -40°.
patent
Does anyone know if apple has patented or submitted for consideration any liquid cooling designs? Has IBM? This is an IBM chip, i wonder if IBM is going to be liquid cooling the Power5....
Does anyone know if apple has patented or submitted for consideration any liquid cooling designs? Has IBM? This is an IBM chip, i wonder if IBM is going to be liquid cooling the Power5....
Macs on Ice
Actually, that's the same range specified for the G4 MDD systems, and probably for all other Macintoshes. At -40° C, it is possible that the chips might start cracking (silicon and metal/plastic do not have the same thermal coefficient of expansion). What's more likely, though, is that Apple only tests systems in these temperature ranges, and they aren't going to promise anything they don't test.
The Red Wolf said:
Actually, that's the same range specified for the G4 MDD systems, and probably for all other Macintoshes. At -40° C, it is possible that the chips might start cracking (silicon and metal/plastic do not have the same thermal coefficient of expansion). What's more likely, though, is that Apple only tests systems in these temperature ranges, and they aren't going to promise anything they don't test.
Neodym said:
I think the overall prediction is way off base, but I do see the potention for a G5 redesigned iMac with the possibility of liquid cooling to keep the enclosure small. I don't think they will add another line of desktop computers (G4 eMacs, single G5 iMacs and dual G5 PowerMacs should be enough to satisfy everyone).
If the could get the G5 into an iMac with a built in LCD and a bottom end price of $1500 that would be amazing.
Cooling for the XClusters?
I have raved to some cohorts at TechFortWorth ( http://www.techfortworth.org local incubator and all-around nice place)...that with Apple's newer stuff...you could get "at-home processing" around 1.2 Teraflops within 2 years. The cooling system confirms it.
However:
1) Wouldn't a non-water based system be more efficient?
2) Can Apple support 4/8/16 processor systems using this method? (Yes IBM
might package multi-chip modules ...see IBM.com for "MCM" ..for special
Apple products)
3) Is Moto going to follow the "cooling path...or going to wait on "room-temp"
stuff?
4) Why can't we beg and plead for Steve Jobs and Scott McNeally and others
to make ONE MASTER UNIX box..that everyone likes. NASA won't let that
puppy go to Mars..RIGHT?
<--embedded bohemian in Cowtown
I have raved to some cohorts at TechFortWorth ( http://www.techfortworth.org local incubator and all-around nice place)...that with Apple's newer stuff...you could get "at-home processing" around 1.2 Teraflops within 2 years. The cooling system confirms it.
However:
1) Wouldn't a non-water based system be more efficient?
2) Can Apple support 4/8/16 processor systems using this method? (Yes IBM
might package multi-chip modules ...see IBM.com for "MCM" ..for special
Apple products)
3) Is Moto going to follow the "cooling path...or going to wait on "room-temp"
stuff?
4) Why can't we beg and plead for Steve Jobs and Scott McNeally and others
to make ONE MASTER UNIX box..that everyone likes. NASA won't let that
puppy go to Mars..RIGHT?
<--embedded bohemian in Cowtown
dr.Zoidberg said:
i think ibm is big into liquid cooling their actualling liquid cooling lap tops
The Red Wolf said:
Ahh what about if it gets above 35ºC?, In summer we often have a week or more of 35º C plus days in a row. Does this mean i will not be able to use my Dual 2.5 for a large chunk of time in summer?
Water cooling reliability
As far as reliability of this new water cooling set up goes, I work with a scientific machine (very very hot lasers with 3 sepparate water coolers (very similar, colsed loop/pump/radiator) which run 24/7 for years and no problem with fluid loss, leaks, corrosion. I have a fealing that most failures of this new Apple unit will be due to people tinkering with the system in various ways rather than actual hardware flaws. I mean, compared to a computer, this water cooling stuff is stone-aged science for the most part.
I'm still glad I opted for the Applecare on my new 2.5 though...
As far as reliability of this new water cooling set up goes, I work with a scientific machine (very very hot lasers with 3 sepparate water coolers (very similar, colsed loop/pump/radiator) which run 24/7 for years and no problem with fluid loss, leaks, corrosion. I have a fealing that most failures of this new Apple unit will be due to people tinkering with the system in various ways rather than actual hardware flaws. I mean, compared to a computer, this water cooling stuff is stone-aged science for the most part.
I'm still glad I opted for the Applecare on my new 2.5 though...
nagromme said:
Since it's water-based, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that it's not an immersion system. That is, the CPU's are not actually immersed in liquid. Rather, it looks like it might be what they call a cold plate system: the CPU's are attached to a metal heat-transfer plate that's cooled by the liquid-cooling system.
Cray did lots of neat things with liquid cooling over the years, and I know a bit about that. In a Cray T90, the main system boards were actually immersed in a tank of circulating fluorinert which was piped under the floor to big heat exchangers. The T3E and J90 liquid-cooled variants, on the other hand, used closed-loop cold-plate systems, which made them a lot cheaper to maintain. (Fluorinert is incredibly expensive stuff, I think.)
The big problem with water-cooling large computers is maintaining pressure during system maintenance. If you want to swap a board out while the system is running, you have to have some kind of mechanism for maintining the integrity of the cooling system. Apple has dodged this whole question, apparently, by making the system entirely self-contained. If you have any kind of problem with any part of the CPU-pump-heat exchanger module, the whole thing gets swapped out. At least, that's how it appears in those pictures.
Speaking of Cray, the connectors that join the CPU's to the system board look eerily like the CrayLink connectors that SGI designed for their Origin series of big computers. I wonder if that's just a case of parallel evolution among hardware designs.