Multi (Leo/Vista) boot RAID0 arrays from SSDs

[gugucom]

As we discussed in other threads it could be particularly advantageous to use SSD RAID0 arrays for dual or even multiple booting. With a decent amount of striped SSDs the idea is to run all your operating systems and applications with high speed. At least that is the theory. To test the idea I have decided to use two Maxtor 160 GB HDD in a very basic dual RAID0 array configuration for booting OS X and Vista-64 in AHCI mode. Here we go:

First thing I learned is that you have to partition the HDDs prior to building your array.

Second thing I learned is that you have to keep it all in HFS+ to make it work.

So now I have used disk utility to create two equal size partitions in HFS+ with GPT on both HDDs.

Next I fused the two lower partions together for a first RAID0 array named 2R-Leo. Format is still set to HFS+ and RAID0 mode is selected.

Then I fused the two upper partitions together for a second RAID0 array named 2R-Vista. Here format is also set to HFS+ and RAID0 mode is selected.

With that done I exited the disk utility to get a fresh start on it. I then entered disk utility again.

Now comes the formating of 2R-Vista from HFS+ to NTFS. To make things easy I have 3rd party NTFS drivers from Paragon. So here I went to the formating section of disk utility (I think it is named deleting) and deleted the 2R-Vista array with NTFS. Obviously you can also use FAT32 if you do not have Paragon NTFS. I prefer the right format because I will try to take a shortcut to installing Vista from a Winclone image that has AHCI drivers activated.

At this point we are ready to clone OS X from an existing boot drive to the 2R-Leo array. I'm using disk utilitie's restore section for the job. I'm now ready to boot from my 2R-Leo array. Booting went without problems.

Now comes the bummer. :(:confused:
Neither a Windows DVD nor the Winclone program recognizes the 2R-Vista array. I'm stuck at this point. What can I do to make EFI and Windows recognize that I have another bootable partition here?

[gugucom]

I tried alternatively to create one large HFS+ partition and cloned OS X on it. Then tried to use the BootCamp assistent and got the error message that external drives cannot be partitioned.
:(:( It looks like there is no way around dedicated arrays at this time.
At least I have not messed with my SSDs. I can simply throw the Maxtors out and refit my Data and Windows HDDs :(:(

Anybody any ideas??

[Tesselator]

Does it absolutely have to be HFS+? What about a real software RAID available in several OS's? ZFS's RAID-Z maybe? Something else?

[gugucom]

This is something I do not understand. Perhaps I need a bit of help here.

What I ideally want to do is buy a third SSD to have enough capacity to run Vista as well off my SSD array. Again in an ideal world I would like to stripe a RAID0 array of 3 SSDs that will be partitioned into an OS X and one Vista partition. Obviously in this case I have to be able to boot both operating systems from their respective partitions. This is where I fall down. It appears to be impossible with the chipset controller of the Mac Pro and the disk utility.

My next idea would have been a hybrid SATA controller with 3 internal ports and perhaps 1 external for eSATA. That controller would need the capability to boot OS X and Vista. Obviously a RAID0 array also needs to be partitionable by the associated controller software. I do not know if this is unrealistic.

The RAID-Z seems to be a software which I don't understand. Can you give me a bit of a noob lowdown on that, Tesselator?

[Tesselator]

This is something I do not understand. Perhaps I need a bit of help here.

What I ideally want to do is buy a third SSD to have enough capacity to run Vista as well off my SSD array. Again in an ideal world I would like to stripe a RAID0 array of 3 SSDs that will be partitioned into an OS X and one Vista partition. Obviously in this case I have to be able to boot both operating systems from their respective partitions. This is where I fall down. It appears to be impossible with the chipset controller of the Mac Pro and the disk utility.

My next idea would have been a hybrid SATA controller with 3 internal ports and perhaps 1 external for eSATA. That controller would need the capability to boot OS X and Vista. Obviously a RAID0 array also needs to be partitionable by the associated controller software. I do not know if this is unrealistic.

The RAID-Z seems to be a software which I don't understand. Can you give me a bit of a noob lowdown on that, Tesselator?

I haven't tried to do anything like this before so I dunno much. I would at first assume one could have NTFS and HFS+ partitions RAID'ed on the same set of RAID members. But you indicated that wasn't possible? If so then I would want to find a bootable filesystem that can be used by both Mac OS X and Windowz - and also Linux if needs be. The first one that popped into my head that (I think) meets those criteria is ZFS.

ZFS is Sun's 128-bit filesystem and because of so many wonderful features has been ported to Windoze, Linux, and Mac OS to name but a few. It's a fairly new creation - only about 3 or 4 years old. OS X Server I believe ships with it standard from 10.5 onward. It's often a "1st choice" of those in home server environments or of folks who are really stressing their drive I/O including RAID users. The RAID levels it supports (which are many :D) has something called ZPOOLING which is like "dynamic expansion" and through vdev you can just add drives as needed.

Anyway, it's kewl. Or looks kewl to me in any case. If you wanna duplicate the reading I've done on it just start here: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/ I guess. Wiki probably has a page on it too.

I haven't tried it for anything like what you're doing so I don't know if it's a workable solution or not. I would recommend looking into it though.


.

[gugucom]

Thank you Tesselator for the link. To my total embarassement I have to admit that I'm completely lost. I have pretty much zero knowledge of software engineering and this is way over my understanding.

My impression is that I have to install an operating system on a hard drive and then get it to host the other operating systems that I want to run (OS X and Vista). It seems to involve a measurable amount of code and server technology which I do not understand at all. I do not doubt that it may be an elegant solution in the hands of a capable software engineer but I do not have the necessary education to understand it.

My hope is that nanofrog comes along and suggests a suitable SATA RAID card that would do the job and comes in at under 200$. I'm afraid I have to keep it on a user level and rely on some clever product which only needs installation. This I am confident I can do.

[Tesselator]

OK, well what happens if you create two NTFS partitions, and then two HFS+ partitions, and then create a RAID of each pair? Does that work or does it tell you to bugger off?

BTW, there's not much to understand. ZFS is just another filesystem like HFS+, NTFS, and etc. I think OS X can boot from a ZFS partition but I'm not positive.


EDIT: Yeah, both sentence one and sentence two above are correct - just tried it. So just do that then. Very simple!

[gugucom]

OK, well what happens if you create two NTFS partitions, and then two HFS+ partitions, and then create a RAID of each pair? Does that work or does it tell you to bugger off?

BTW, there's not much to understand. ZFS is just another filesystem like HFS+, NTFS, and etc. I think OS X can boot from a ZFS partition but I'm not positive.


EDIT: Yeah, both sentence one and sentence two above are correct - just tried it. So just do that then. Very simple!

Unfortunately I have no clue how to create a ZFS partition in the first place. This whole dual booting system has to be run with EFI firmware as that is what the Mac Pro uses. So how would I get a ZFS driver installed that will allow me to create a partition? I know how to install a Paragon NTFS driver which allows me to create NTFS partitions in disk utility.

Regarding the creation of two HFS+ and NTFS partitions I have described in my first post how I tried that way. Unfortunately neither Winclone out of OS X nor Windows installer recognizes the NTFS array. They only see the single disks and obviously cannot install there.


I have used disk utility to create two equal size partitions in HFS+ with GPT on both HDDs.

Next I fused the two lower partions together for a first RAID0 array named 2R-Leo. Format is still set to HFS+ and RAID0 mode is selected.

Then I fused the two upper partitions together for a second RAID0 array named 2R-Vista. Here format is also set to HFS+ and RAID0 mode is selected.

With that done I exited the disk utility to get a fresh start on it. I then entered disk utility again.

Now comes the formating of 2R-Vista from HFS+ to NTFS. To make things easy I have 3rd party NTFS drivers from Paragon. So here I went to the formating section of disk utility (I think it is named deleting) and deleted the 2R-Vista array with NTFS. Obviously you can also use FAT32 if you do not have Paragon NTFS. I prefer the right format because I will try to take a shortcut to installing Vista from a Winclone image that has AHCI drivers activated.

At this point we are ready to clone OS X from an existing boot drive to the 2R-Leo array. I'm using disk utilitie's restore section for the job. I'm now ready to boot from my 2R-Leo array. Booting went without problems.

Now comes the bummer.
Neither a Windows DVD nor the Winclone program recognizes the 2R-Vista array. I'm stuck at this point. What can I do to make EFI and Windows recognize that I have another bootable partition here?

[nanofrog]

First thing I learned is that you have to partition the HDDs prior to building your array.
Yes. :)

Second thing I learned is that you have to keep it all in HFS+ to make it work.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. You create one array under OS X, the second under Windows. One OS can't read the partition tables created by another. I've never seen this successfully done, and it makes sense, as each OS handles the low level operations differently.

So now I have used disk utility to create two equal size partitions in HFS+ with GPT on both HDDs.
Windows can't read the GPT created by OS X. You proved this by formatting with Paragon IMO. ;)

Now comes the bummer. :(:confused:
Neither a Windows DVD nor the Winclone program recognizes the 2R-Vista array. I'm stuck at this point. What can I do to make EFI and Windows recognize that I have another bootable partition here?
If you still want to try this, create the partitions via the Boot Camp partition tool. DO NOT attempt to create an array under OS X for Windows.

You should end up with 4 partitions total (pre array creation). Assemble two in an OS X array, and the remaining pair will have to be created under windows. Assuming each partition is 80GB, this won't be a problem.

But it would be the method I described in the other thread. Install Windows on one of the Windows partitions (use BC, as I think it will install the AHCI driver at the beginning for you), create the array, and reinstall windows to the array (or clone if you wish). If you want to clone, you'd need to run the BC driver set prior to installing on the array.

If you need it, I made a .zip of the AHCI drivers. (Creating the partitions a tad differently may cause these to get skipped, and need to do a manual driver load during Windows installation). Perhaps a clone isn't the best way to proceed on this either.

ZFS's RAID-Z maybe? Something else?
ZFS/RAID-Z/RAID-Z2 won't work under HFS/s, NTFS, FAT16/32. The file systems just aren't compatible. It only works under ext2/3 IIRC.

Apple was claiming they were going to place this functionality in the Server version of Snow Leopard, but pulled it. I'm assuming they were having too many problems with getting it to function correctly with their file system.

This is something I do not understand. Perhaps I need a bit of help here.

What I ideally want to do is buy a third SSD to have enough capacity to run Vista as well off my SSD array. Again in an ideal world I would like to stripe a RAID0 array of 3 SSDs that will be partitioned into an OS X and one Vista partition. Obviously in this case I have to be able to boot both operating systems from their respective partitions. This is where I fall down. It appears to be impossible with the chipset controller of the Mac Pro and the disk utility.

My next idea would have been a hybrid SATA controller with 3 internal ports and perhaps 1 external for eSATA. That controller would need the capability to boot OS X and Vista. Obviously a RAID0 array also needs to be partitionable by the associated controller software. I do not know if this is unrealistic.

The RAID-Z seems to be a software which I don't understand. Can you give me a bit of a noob lowdown on that, Tesselator?
Let me know if you're willing to try the BC method described above before giving up.

If need be, I can help direct you to a card, but it won't exactly be inexpensive, as multiple boot capability is rare, and on the higher end models (when you find it). Skip Highpoint, as they can only boot one OS (different firmware needs to be loaded, for the OS intended for boot). That leaves Areca and Atto, which do have cards that can. But figure ~$500 - $600 for a minimal number of ports (likely 8).

[gugucom]

Thank you nanofrog for the lengthy appreciation of my efforts. I'm definitely not spending 500$ on a dual boot controller because the money would be better spent on additional SSDs and a cheap internal controller for windows.

I'll give it one more shot at Bootcamp. I have tried that for a single array already, and obviously I have used Paragon to create a second NTFS array which wasn't recognized.

I will use Bootcamp for the first round of partitioning. Its a bit of a PITA to clone OS X on both first partitions but I will do it. I will then try to install Windows but I have little confidence that the Intel Matrix Storage controller will allow me to build a RAID0 retrospectively once I have one partition installed with Vista/AHCI. At that point the game should be over. But perhaps I can run an additional Vista/AHCI drive which will allow me to form the array. I'll be back with some results.

Edit: proceeding well. Could create Bootcamp partitions without cloning OSX first.

Edit2: I do remember now that you can load the Intel Storage Manager for the 632ESB2 controller in two different flavours. There is RAID and AHCI. I have never tried RAID. In Vista that is possible via F6 and USB stick. Perhaps Vista installer will present me with a new utility. Keep the fingers crossed.

[DoFoT9]

great thread!! just chiming in, i am planning on doing the same thing with two 500GB HDDs for my hackintosh. i am going for a walk then off to uni then ill be back to help :)

[gugucom]

I have cloned OS X on the HFS+ array.

Then proceeded with booting Vista64 install DVD.

Found the two Bootcamp partitions and formated with NTFS as required.

Then loaded ESB2 RAID driver from USB stick. Unfortunately no utility becomes available as speculated. Installer telling me that my BIOS may not support certain functionalities.

Proceeding to install Vista64 on first of two NTFS partitions to see if RAID utility pops up later in the proceedings.

[DoFoT9]

Windows can't read the GPT created by OS X. You proved this by formatting with Paragon IMO. ;)

ok so keep in mind that my system will be a hackintosh :)

OSX cannot be installed onto anything but the GPT correct? and because windows cannot read the GPT then that is kind of a sticky situation... using the Bootcamp Assistant, could one create one big RAID0 of two 500GB drives (i.e. total of 1TB), then use the BootCamp tool to partition it evenly, however that wont give you the option of selecting where the data will be held.. (ok so that wont work).

If you still want to try this, create the partitions via the Boot Camp partition tool. DO NOT attempt to create an array under OS X for Windows.

ahhh i see now, format the two 500GB drives, install OSX onto one of them, run Bootcamp Assistant on the first drive, split it 250GB, then attempt to do it on the second drive (does it need OSX installed on it?). that could work i guess.

You should end up with 4 partitions total (pre array creation). Assemble two in an OS X array, and the remaining pair will have to be created under windows. Assuming each partition is 80GB, this won't be a problem.

that was my idea of it too, using Disk Utility create the partitions then use the individual OS's to format them together.

If you need it, I made a .zip of the AHCI drivers. (Creating the partitions a tad differently may cause these to get skipped, and need to do a manual driver load during Windows installation). Perhaps a clone isn't the best way to proceed on this either.

clones = no no for this situation i think, especially for windows. for OSX it might be ok. what are AHCI drivers? do i need them for PC or are they purely for the OSX/bootcamp side of things?

[nanofrog]

Thank you nanofrog for the lengthy appreciation of my efforts. I'm definitely not spending 500$ on a dual boot controller because the money would be better spent on additional SSDs and a cheap internal controller for windows.
NP. :cool: I wouldn't either, if there's a way around it. ;)

I will use Bootcamp for the first round of partitioning. Its a bit of a PITA to clone OS X on both first partitions but I will do it. I will then try to install Windows but I have little confidence that the Intel Matrix Storage controller will allow me to build a RAID0 retrospectively once I have one partition installed with Vista/AHCI. At that point the game should be over. But perhaps I can run an additional Vista/AHCI drive which will allow me to form the array. I'll be back with some results.
The Intel Matrix Storage Controller can operate in either AHCI or RAID mode, and IIRC, both are included in the drivers.

Edit: proceeding well. Could create Bootcamp partitions without cloning OSX first.

Edit2: I do remember now that you can load the Intel Storage Manager for the 632ESB2 controller in two different flavours. There is RAID and AHCI. I have never tried RAID. In Vista that is possible via F6 and USB stick. Perhaps Vista installer will present me with a new utility. Keep the fingers crossed.
OK, you did find this on your own. Usually the RAID or AHCI settings are accessed in the firmware, but you can't. So you're going to have to work around that, and I know it can be done. :D

I have cloned OS X on the HFS+ array.

Then proceeded with booting Vista64 install DVD.

Found the two Bootcamp partitions and formated with NTFS as required.

Then loaded ESB2 RAID driver from USB stick. Unfortunately no utility becomes available as speculated. Installer telling me that my BIOS may not support certain functionalities.
I didn't expect it would. :( Hence the description of having (no choice) to install on one partition to begin with, just to set up the array.

Once you get that intitial install (no array), you need to go into:
1. Control Panel
2. Administrative Settings & Tools
3. Computer Management
4. Storage
5. Disk Management
6. Right Click the first partition you want to use, and select New Striped Volume. A wizard will start.

Hopefully, you'll be able to go from there with smooth sailing. :D It can be found on the web if you need to do a search. ;) Might be faster than waiting for members on the forum, as I'm assuming you're keen on success, and want it sooner than later. :p

ok so keep in mind that my system will be a hackintosh :)
In your case, this should actually make things a tad easier. ;)

OSX cannot be installed onto anything but the GPT correct?
That's what they do on the Mac. I'm assuming it's the only way, but I don't know for sure. I'd have to verify it's the only way on the hackintosh forums.

and because windows cannot read the GPT then that is kind of a sticky situation... using the Bootcamp Assistant, could one create one big RAID0 of two 500GB drives (i.e. total of 1TB), then use the BootCamp tool to partition it evenly, however that wont give you the option of selecting where the data will be held.. (ok so that wont work).
You're not using a Mac, so you shouldn't be using BC at all. :eek: :p

I'm assuming you've windows already installed, and have hacked it with OS X as well, but no stripe sets. Is this the case?

ahhh i see now, format the two 500GB drives, install OSX onto one of them, run Bootcamp Assistant on the first drive, split it 250GB, then attempt to do it on the second drive (does it need OSX installed on it?). that could work i guess.
You used BC to install OS X the first time?

For some reason, I'm thinking you shouldn't, particularly as it's written (drivers in particular) for a different board. It's not far off the way you did it before, but you have to go into Disk Util in OS X to set up the array.

You'd need to create the Windows version as well, and you can use the above steps listed out for gugucom. Go ahead and get into the firmware first though, and set it for RAID under the SATA drive settings. It does work. ;)

Now you could load the RAID drivers during a fresh windows install, but the method listed above may be easier, as I don't know the details as to how you set up your system. (i.e. How easy it is to get to the settings for creating an array, as some are in the firmware, some aren't).

The board I'm using for example, would depend on which controller I choose, as it has 3 (ICH10R, Marvell SATA, & Marvell SAS). Headaches galore, as I can only do so much, due to the boot restrictions of only one of them at a time. To switch around (booting), I have to enter the firmware and change the settings. :rolleyes: It's a PITA, so I had to carefully think about what I set. (I originally wanted the optical drive on a separate controller than the other drives I use for backup on ICH10R). I can do it, but I can't boot a DVD, or I can't use one of the backups for cloning purposes, and boot from it when the **** hits the fan (eventual, not maybe). :p

Now if you're board is using a different controller chip, such as a Marvell, you will have to again set it for RAID operation in the firmware, but the driver will need to be loaded during the windows install (so windows can actually see it).

clones = no no for this situation i think, especially for windows. for OSX it might be ok. what are AHCI drivers? do i need them for PC or are they purely for the OSX/bootcamp side of things?
Clones would be a really good idea once you get both OS's setup properly, as all the RAID settings are there. It could simplify their installation if you ever run into a problem. ;)

I hope all of this helps the both of you, and not make a big mess. :eek: :p

[gugucom]

Thx nano, you are great! I had not known that you can stripe drives out of Windows.

I cannot do the striping and I asume that is due to the fact that I have Windows already installed on that Partition. I will reconfigure and fit a drive that has Windows already installen then I will again format both NTFS drives and try to stripe them.

[DoFoT9]

I cannot do the striping and I asume that is due to the fact that I have Windows already installed on that Partition. I will reconfigure and fit a drive that has Windows already installen then I will again format both NTFS drives and try to stripe them.

good thinking, definately worth a shot! from my Cert III days i am fairly certain that an active boot disk cannot be striped and changed in anyway, so you will need a seperate bootdrive to do it..


Once you get that intitial install (no array), you need to go into:
1. Control Panel
2. Administrative Settings & Tools
3. Computer Management
4. Storage
5. Disk Management
6. Right Click the first partition you want to use, and select New Striped Volume. A wizard will start.


my mind compeltely skipped this process!! it makes perfect sense!


In your case, this should actually make things a tad easier. ;)
excellent, the fact that everything isnt EFI makes it a lot easier too :p i dont think (from memory) that it needs to be a GPT using the modded version of my installer, id have to double check that though.. so thats a great plus!


That's what they do on the Mac. I'm assuming it's the only way, but I don't know for sure. I'd have to verify it's the only way on the hackintosh forums.
yea on the mac there are alot more hurdles unfortunately :(


You're not using a Mac, so you shouldn't be using BC at all. :eek: :p
no i shouldnt and wont, it was part proposal for the OP part random idea ;) albeit, a lame one though.

I'm assuming you've windows already installed, and have hacked it with OS X as well, but no stripe sets. Is this the case?

that is the case yes, but currently OSX resides on a seperate 40GB HDD, XP sits on the 500GB WD HD. i have yet to purchase the 2nd HDD for this experiement.


You used BC to install OS X the first time?
:-S how could i install OSX with BC?? BC installs windows OS's lol! but no, i used the normal OSX install method to install it.

For some reason, I'm thinking you shouldn't, particularly as it's written (drivers in particular) for a different board. It's not far off the way you did it before, but you have to go into Disk Util in OS X to set up the array.

You'd need to create the Windows version as well, and you can use the above steps listed out for gugucom. Go ahead and get into the firmware first though, and set it for RAID under the SATA drive settings. It does work. ;)

Now you could load the RAID drivers during a fresh windows install, but the method listed above may be easier, as I don't know the details as to how you set up your system. (i.e. How easy it is to get to the settings for creating an array, as some are in the firmware, some aren't).

i wasnt aware that i would need to change firmware settings or anything, i thought it would automatically be recognised when you run through the steps you listed above?? hmmm



currently booting is very easy, i have a bootloader installed on each HD and i hit F8 upon startup to choose which HD i want to boot (then the individual bootloader kicks in), so i cant see it being too hard to re-implement this system. my Gigabyte mobo seems fairly competent with dual OS's and all that..(and I can boot from DVDs if i want :rolleyes:)

[quote]Clones would be a really good idea once you get both OS's setup properly, as all the RAID settings are there. It could simplify their installation if you ever run into a problem. ;)
come to think of it, your right. i can make an image of my current OSX drive, set everything up then reimage without any problems... it makes sense. is it also possible to restore XP in this manner? (maybe via WinClone or Ghost?)

I hope all of this helps the both of you, and not make a big mess. :eek: :p
im slowly getting there, just want to make sure that i have all processes sorted before making the plunge, $70 is a big investment for me :cool: :p ;)

p.s. nano, what are you like at networking? (no reason)

[nanofrog]

that is the case yes, but currently OSX resides on a seperate 40GB HDD, XP sits on the 500GB WD HD. i have yet to purchase the 2nd HDD for this experiement.
I presume you can't borrow one? (Yes, I know this is difficult). ;)


:-S how could i install OSX with BC?? BC installs windows OS's lol! but no, i used the normal OSX install method to install it.
DOH! You know what I meant. ;)

But if you didn't I meant in the sense of installing OS X first, then use BC to install Windows. :p Given the fact you need Vanilla or some other means, this may not even be possible. (I've never looked into it, let alone try it).

i wasnt aware that i would need to change firmware settings or anything, i thought it would automatically be recognised when you run through the steps you listed above?? hmmm
That will depend on the SATA controller chip, but most have the settings for it. For example, the i7 board I have allows me to specify Legacy, AHCI, or RAID for the ICH10R located in the chipset.

What board are you running (which Gigabyte model), and how is it setup?

come to think of it, your right. i can make an image of my current OSX drive, set everything up then reimage without any problems... it makes sense. is it also possible to restore XP in this manner? (maybe via WinClone or Ghost?)
Yes, but I'd get the array done before making any clones. On the Windows side, you can get 3rd party software. I'm using Acronis True Image 2009 for cloning/backup software, but it has problems with XP. I'm using Vista Ultimate 64, and it's doing fine. But there was a review that indicated XP had problems with it. :(

Offhand, I'm not sure what to recommend for XP now, unless you can find an older version that does OK with it. :confused:

Sorry I can't be of more help here. :o


im slowly getting there, just want to make sure that i have all processes sorted before making the plunge, $70 is a big investment for me :cool: :p ;)
I understand, believe me. College hasn't yet evaporated from memory. ;) Yet. :eek: Maybe because I was actually sober most of the time. :p

p.s. nano, what are you like at networking? (no reason)
Not bad (I've worked in telecommunications, which was a mixture of copper and fiber optic based networks), though I'm sure there are those who know more than I, especially with something specific like the Airport/Airport Express.

[DoFoT9]

I presume you can't borrow one? (Yes, I know this is difficult). ;)

i could clone another 500GB drive that i have then erase it etc, but it is a WD....could that work?

DOH! You know what I meant. ;)

But if you didn't I meant in the sense of installing OS X first, then use BC to install Windows. :p Given the fact you need Vanilla or some other means, this may not even be possible. (I've never looked into it, let alone try it).
haha yea im just messing i know what you meant! i dont think that BC will be supported on a hackintosh system - its not needed anyway!!


That will depend on the SATA controller chip, but most have the settings for it. For example, the i7 board I have allows me to specify Legacy, AHCI, or RAID for the ICH10R located in the chipset.

What board are you running (which Gigabyte model), and how is it setup?

ahh i see.. i am running this cheap GB mobo here (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2889). apparently it has a "iTE IT8718 chip" I/O chip, if that helps at all..the manual mentions AHCI a few times, but no compatibility lists are there, it seems to support it though..


Yes, but I'd get the array done before making any clones. On the Windows side, you can get 3rd party software. I'm using Acronis True Image 2009 for cloning/backup software, but it has problems with XP. I'm using Vista Ultimate 64, and it's doing fine. But there was a review that indicated XP had problems with it. :(

yup of course, i dont need to worry about the cloning OSX because its currently on a different drive anyway! (the slow 40GB one lol) so it wont be touched in anyway. for Windows i might just start again with Vista or something... its probably time to upgrade anyway.

Offhand, I'm not sure what to recommend for XP now, unless you can find an older version that does OK with it. :confused:

Sorry I can't be of more help here. :o

thats fine :) im sure ill find a solution


I understand, believe me. College hasn't yet evaporated from memory. ;) Yet. :eek: Maybe because I was actually sober most of the time. :p

i live 1hr away from uni, and buses stop running to my town at 10pm, so parties are out of the question. i spend 98% of my time sober lol!


Not bad (I've worked in telecommunications, which was a mixture of copper and fiber optic based networks), though I'm sure there are those who know more than I, especially with something specific like the Airport/Airport Express.

oh excellent! im doing a communication course this sem, learning about the Internet Stack layer (from the top down too ;)). SO interesting.

thanks for everything.

i think i might go call Apple about getting my two laptop batteries replaced :) (damn they didnt pick up :()

OP: any lucky yet??

[nanofrog]

i could clone another 500GB drive that i have then erase it etc, but it is a WD....could that work?
It's the same size, so it would definitely work. :D

Even drives not of equal capacity will work, but the array size will be based off the smallest in the set. So if you have a 750GB and a 1TB, it will be 1.5TB, with 250GB as unused. Paritioning can regain access to it, but it will only operate at single drive performance on the inner most tracks.

ahh i see.. i am running this cheap GB mobo here (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2889). apparently it has a "iTE IT8718 chip" I/O chip, if that helps at all..the manual mentions AHCI a few times, but no compatibility lists are there, it seems to support it though..
The board's specs say it's an ICH7 (Southbridge). The chip you listed is for the floppy drive. :eek: :p

Check the firmware, as it should have a listing for Legacy, Enhanced (under IDE), AHCI, and possibly RAID (if it's the ICH7R version).

yup of course, i dont need to worry about the cloning OSX because its currently on a different drive anyway! (the slow 40GB one lol) so it wont be touched in anyway. for Windows i might just start again with Vista or something... its probably time to upgrade anyway.
From what I've seen using Win7, I'd use that. Currently, the Release Candidate is still available, but only until Aug. 22 IIRC. It seems to run well, and is much easier to install, as it has many of the drivers that have to be loaded separately into Vista.

It's due out on Oct. 22, 2009, so not long at all. So SKIP Vista at this point. ;)

i live 1hr away from uni, and buses stop running to my town at 10pm, so parties are out of the question. i spend 98% of my time sober lol!
I didn't have to use a bus system (it wouldn't have been feasible). For me, it was the major (engineering) & resulting work load. Too much work, too little time, and I didn't want to screw up. :D I've never been much of a drinker anyway. Fun with company, but not so much when at home by myself. :rolleyes: ;) Very little/light drinking happens to be cheaper too. :p So perhaps more vegemite in the cupboard instead. :D

oh excellent! im doing a communication course this sem, learning about the Internet Stack layer (from the top down too ;)). SO interesting.
So long as you're enjoying it, you should learn something. ;) The Top-Down approach is the best way IMO. :)

thanks for everything.
NP. :)

[DoFoT9]

It's the same size, so it would definitely work. :D

ok awsome, looks like i might be trying this method over the weekend then instead of having to wait to pick up a few extra shifts :D:D

Even drives not of equal capacity will work, but the array size will be based off the smallest in the set. So if you have a 750GB and a 1TB, it will be 1.5TB, with 250GB as unused. Paritioning can regain access to it, but it will only operate at single drive performance on the inner most tracks.

right. so my idea of joining a 250GB partition (from the 500GB) and a 500GB partition (from the 1TB) would not work as the max size of the partition would be 500GB instead of the 750?


The board's specs say it's an ICH7 (Southbridge). The chip you listed is for the floppy drive. :eek: :p
shows you how much i know about the controllers haha! i just saw "I/O Controller" and thought it would be good enough for you to work with haha, mybad.

Check the firmware, as it should have a listing for Legacy, Enhanced (under IDE), AHCI, and possibly RAID (if it's the ICH7R version).
firmware of the mobo? will do when i get home. AFAIK its the standard stuff.


From what I've seen using Win7, I'd use that. Currently, the Release Candidate is still available, but only until Aug. 22 IIRC. It seems to run well, and is much easier to install, as it has many of the drivers that have to be loaded separately into Vista.

It's due out on Oct. 22, 2009, so not long at all. So SKIP Vista at this point. ;)
i already have Win7, i forget the release version but its a tad behind the current one, its very stable but does like to run slow at times. not confident at changing just now.


I didn't have to use a bus system (it wouldn't have been feasible). For me, it was the major (engineering) & resulting work load. Too much work, too little time, and I didn't want to screw up. :D I've never been much of a drinker anyway. Fun with company, but not so much when at home by myself. :rolleyes: ;) Very little/light drinking happens to be cheaper too. :p So perhaps more vegemite in the cupboard instead. :D

buses are pathetic here :( i wouldnt call my major intense, but definately involved. especially since i have taken a marketing subject - its all new and wierd to me. completely different from IT. i dont drink much either, got to be in the mood. vegemite is more expensive then most beers ;) (im a spirit man though, so yea its cheaper).


So long as you're enjoying it, you should learn something. ;) The Top-Down approach is the best way IMO. :)
i learn something everyday, yesterday i learnt HOW ANNOYING mature age students are (no offense to them, they just think they know everything - the ones in my classes do anyway), pisses me off.

you prefer top-down? it seems alright, the Application layer isnt very interesting, i much rather the Link layer and Network layer :)

[gugucom]

I'm having some serious problems with the disk program. I was not offered to install a striped volume until I deleted the Bootcamp partition and created unallocated space. Unfortunately the creation of a striped volume cannot be restricted to the free spaces. I actually killed my striped OS X volume that way. The HDD reverted to MBR partitiontable. It is creating hefty work. I'm not even sure it can be done. I wish I had partition magic. This job would be done in minutes. Right now I'm preparing the HDDs from scratch again.

Has anybody successfully striped an array in Windows on a Mac Pro involving multiple partitions with GUID?

[nanofrog]

ok awsome, looks like i might be trying this method over the weekend then instead of having to wait to pick up a few extra shifts :D:D
:cool: But picking up extra shifts when possible isn't a bad idea either. The cash can come in handy somewhere down the road. ;)

right. so my idea of joining a 250GB partition (from the 500GB) and a 500GB partition (from the 1TB) would not work as the max size of the partition would be 500GB instead of the 750?
Correct.

Total Capacity (stripe set) = smallest partition size * n drives.

shows you how much i know about the controllers haha! i just saw "I/O Controller" and thought it would be good enough for you to work with haha, mybad.
No big deal. :)

firmware of the mobo? will do when i get home. AFAIK its the standard stuff.
Those I listed are usually on the "menu" as it where. ;)


i already have Win7, i forget the release version but its a tad behind the current one, its very stable but does like to run slow at times. not confident at changing just now.
There was a difference IMO. The final version isn't a problem from what I've been able to tell. Though driver issues are always a possibility, and can make the fastest system become a slug in the arctic circle. :p

i learn something everyday, yesterday i learnt HOW ANNOYING mature age students are (no offense to them, they just think they know everything - the ones in my classes do anyway), pisses me off.
Keep in mind, many of those older students have both professional (work experience) and life experience you don't. That doesn't mean what they're spouting is accurate by any means. You can always find those that are full of ****. :p But it tends to be more on track in my experience. From my POV, those just out of college tend not to know nearly as much as they think they do. Arrogance makes this worse (is this the aspect you're having an issue with?). My experience is a "bubble" though, as it's rather specific, and there's a massive amount of information to be learned. Even more on the job than there was taught in uni courses. Though I thought it was easier due to hands on methodology, rather than just a book (theory).

you prefer top-down? it seems alright, the Application layer isnt very interesting, i much rather the Link layer and Network layer :)
Generally speaking (i.e. top down programming, circuit design,...), yes as a way to understand the relationships (less confusing logically). This way did seem to make a lot of sense in engineering course work. But I spend most of my time in system level areas. ;) That's not to say I haven't had issues with it. Too much time in the top layers, and understanding of the lower layers tends to be lost (programming for example). It can get messy IMO. :rolleyes: :(

[nanofrog]

I'm having some serious problems with the disk program. I was not offered to install a striped volume until I deleted the Bootcamp partition and created unallocated space. Unfortunately the creation of a striped volume cannot be restricted to the free spaces. I actually killed my striped OS X volume that way. The HDD reverted to MBR partitiontable. It is creating hefty work. I'm not even sure it can be done. I wish I had partition magic. This job would be done in minutes. Right now I'm preparing the HDDs from scratch again.

Has anybody successfully striped an array in Windows on a Mac Pro involving multiple partitions with GUID?
Hmm.... Have you tried setting the partition type to GPT under windows?

At this point, it's not recognizing partitions made under OS X. There might be a couple of tools that might help, but I'm not sure (I can't remember if it supports HFS/+ or not), but take a look at Acronis True Image 2009, or Acronis Disk Director. The later may be the better choice.

I figured this was going to be difficult, but it's worst than I expected. :(

[gugucom]

Hmm.... Have you tried setting the partition type to GPT under windows?

At this point, it's not recognizing partitions made under OS X. There might be a couple of tools that might help, but I'm not sure (I can't remember if it supports HFS/+ or not), but take a look at Acronis True Image 2009, or Acronis Disk Director. The later may be the better choice.

I figured this was going to be difficult, but it's worst than I expected. :(

I'm attaching screen shots. Sorry this is all set to German. But you see that there is no option of striping. Bootcamp1 and Bootcamp2 are my empty new partitions and Bootcamp is my working Windows drive.

Edit: In the EFI partition of all three drives it says GPT protective partition. I do not expect Acronis to work on a Mac. It requires some fancy footwork in BIOS.

[DoFoT9]

:cool: But picking up extra shifts when possible isn't a bad idea either. The cash can come in handy somewhere down the road. ;)
i know i know, i get this from my dad all the time! i have been trying to start a computer repair business to get out of slaving away (i wont get started, i could bitch all day), but dont have enough time. had a 'semi-pro' DVD production lined up for the weekend too, but the guy pulled out.. damn money haha

Those I listed are usually on the "menu" as it where. ;)

it flashes fast :p ill have to pause it lol! will report it back later.

There was a difference IMO. The final version isn't a problem from what I've been able to tell. Though driver issues are always a possibility, and can make the fastest system become a slug in the arctic circle. :p

ahh ok, i only ever tried it VM style, it was noticably better then vista (it didnt BSOD when i installed it :rolleyes: ;)) so im giving it a very good chance. ill have to 'aquire' it somehow lol, hopefully its a small download.


Keep in mind, many of those older students have both professional (work experience) and life experience you don't.
im not bagging all of them at all, not in the slightest. only the "loud-mouth-know-it-alls" that actually dont know it all..

e.g. one guy called himself a "programmer", first tute for programming we got into he couldnt find the "start" button (not that it has to do with programming, just the fact that he couldnt possibly be a programmer when he has no idea about the computer at all).

dont get me wrong most mature age students really do know what they are talking about! one guy asked a REALLY good question in my communication class (where the bottlenecks are in the internet, especially when there is high volume traffic at peak hours). the lecture didnt understand though (not properly speaking english).. but you know.

they do have lots of other experience, life experience is very hard to come by and i wish that i could get more so that i could interact with people better especially in a business sense..

That doesn't mean what they're spouting is accurate by any means. You can always find those that are full of ****. :p But it tends to be more on track in my experience. From my POV, those just out of college tend not to know nearly as much as they think they do.
some people are really institutionalised, and others are generally just good at what they do and can really make a contribution to my understandings. the out of college people you say would indeed think they know it all, but as i know, they dont.

Arrogance makes this worse (is this the aspect you're having an issue with?). My experience is a "bubble" though, as it's rather specific, and there's a massive amount of information to be learned. Even more on the job than there was taught in uni courses. Though I thought it was easier due to hands on methodology, rather than just a book (theory).

yes being an engineer would be rather specific, but its a very important field (what exactly are you in?). i do not consider myself arrogant at all, i know NOTHING.. i come on here and am blown away by what you guys know, and you arent even in the field! i have been fortunate enough to do work experience with a number of companies and its very daunting. when i go into a place i dont know i tend to be quiet and take everything in (being a drummer i am good at learning quickly, if that makes sense). i can learn processes quickly and repeat them easily...but my knowledge at this point is basically nothing compared to others.


Generally speaking (i.e. top down programming, circuit design,...), yes as a way to understand the relationships (less confusing logically). This way did seem to make a lot of sense in engineering course work. But I spend most of my time in system level areas. ;) That's not to say I haven't had issues with it. Too much time in the top layers, and understanding of the lower layers tends to be lost (programming for example). It can get messy IMO. :rolleyes: :(

for this Internet Stack, i am annoyed about it, i dont care about the higher levels that much.. getting into networking all i care about is the Link/Network layer (for in depth knowledge). of course i will need to know about the others, but not THAT much.. (unless my naive uni-boy attitude is leading me in the wrong direction here lol). i love learning but :P :)

[nanofrog]

I'm attaching screen shots. Sorry this is all set to German. But you see that there is no option of striping. Bootcamp1 and Bootcamp2 are my empty new partitions and Bootcamp is my working Windows drive.

Edit: In the EFI partition of all three drives it says GPT protective partition.
Try erasing them, and see if it will then allow you the stripe option. I just took a look at mine, and I came up with the same on anything that is currently formated.

After erasing (no important data ATM), the stripe option came up when right clicked. :)

Could it actually be this simple?!? :eek: I don't know 100%, but it would sure be nice. :D

[gugucom]

Try erasing them, and see if it will then allow you the stripe option. I just took a look at mine, and I came up with the same on anything that is currently formated.

After erasing (no important data ATM), the stripe option came up when right clicked. :)

Could it actually be this simple?!? :eek: I don't know 100%, but it would sure be nice. :D

I found out by studying the syntax that you cannot stripe volumes, only complete data carriers. This is probably the end of the road for this experiment. I would actually stripe the bloody buggers if I had means to reconstruct the EFI, OSX , separation block and the partition table. Obviously striping destroys the GPT. :eek: I'm obviously a bit mad now. Why can't I have a bog standard RAID utility for Windows on a Mac?

[nanofrog]

I found out by studying the syntax that you cannot stripe volumes, only complete data carriers. This is probably the end of the road for this experiment. I would actually stripe the bloody buggers if I had means to reconstruct the EFI, OSX , separation block and the partition table. Obviously striping destroys the GPT. :eek: I'm obviously a bit mad now. Why can't I have a bog standard RAID utility for Windows on a Mac?
That really blows. :(

I recall you want 3x SSD, but what drive locations do you have available, and what will the usage patterns be for each OS?

[Dr.Pants]

Has a dual-boot over RAID of OSX and Windows been done to begin with?

AFAIK, certain RAID cards need flashing for booting either Windows or OSX.... Or with Areca's cards, is the flashing just for EFI support, regardless of OS:confused:

[nanofrog]

i know i know, i get this from my dad all the time! i have been trying to start a computer repair business to get out of slaving away (i wont get started, i could bitch all day), but dont have enough time. had a 'semi-pro' DVD production lined up for the weekend too, but the guy pulled out.. damn money haha
Not a bad idea, provided you can get paid. :eek: I did stuff like that in the past, and had problems with individuals and small businesses. More than a few bankruptcies and deadbeats... :rolleyes: :mad:

ahh ok, i only ever tried it VM style, it was noticeably better then vista (it didn't BSOD when i installed it :rolleyes: ;)) so im giving it a very good chance. ill have to 'acquire' it somehow lol, hopefully its a small download.
It's a free and legit download (Aug. 20, not the 22nd :o). So get it now.
DOWNLOAD (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/dd353205.aspx)

im not bagging all of them at all, not in the slightest. only the "loud-mouth-know-it-alls" that actually dont know it all..

e.g. one guy called himself a "programmer", first tute for programming we got into he couldn't find the "start" button (not that it has to do with programming, just the fact that he couldn't possibly be a programmer when he has no idea about the computer at all).
They're out there, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, for some weird reason, they end up as the boss. :eek: Seriously.

dont get me wrong most mature age students really do know what they are talking about! one guy asked a REALLY good question in my communication class (where the bottlenecks are in the internet, especially when there is high volume traffic at peak hours). the lecture didn't understand though (not properly speaking English).. but you know.
Befriend those that have something to offer, as they can help you understand how things go, including office politics (a sad reality I'm afraid, and you do have to play). :rolleyes: Usually a few good stories too. :)

yes being an engineer would be rather specific, but its a very important field (what exactly are you in?).
I started out in Materials (polymers & semiconductor specialization), but the job I got after I graduated sucked (Quality Control in polymers). I absolutely couldn't stand it, as I was bored to tears. So I went back to school for Computer Engineering. I learned a lot, but it specialized in digital circuits, so my knowledge of analog was far more limited (fewer classes than the EE side). What I know about it now, is out of experience, and I could still stand to learn more. Another area I've learned outside of course work, would be cooling. One course in Fluid Dynamics left me woefully under prepared. :p

i do not consider myself arrogant at all, i know NOTHING.. i come on here and am blown away by what you guys know, and you aren't even in the field! i have been fortunate enough to do work experience with a number of companies and its very daunting. when i go into a place i dont know i tend to be quiet and take everything in (being a drummer i am good at learning quickly, if that makes sense). i can learn processes quickly and repeat them easily...but my knowledge at this point is basically nothing compared to others.
Experience. You'll learn it out of necessity, or end up unemployed. :eek: :D

for this Internet Stack, i am annoyed about it, i dont care about the higher levels that much.. getting into networking all i care about is the Link/Network layer (for in depth knowledge). of course i will need to know about the others, but not THAT much.. (unless my naive uni-boy attitude is leading me in the wrong direction here lol). i love learning but :P :)
For me, I tend to concentrate on the physical area, but that's circuits. ;)

[gugucom]

That really blows. :(

I recall you want 3x SSD, but what drive locations do you have available, and what will the usage patterns be for each OS?

I currently have 2 x 64 GB SSDs striped for OS X. I wanted to add another 64 GB to the array and cut of 21 GB of each for Vista. So I would end up with 63 GB for Windows which ist just good enough. Both arrays would probably have been faster that way.

The fourth position in my Mac Pro currently has a 1TB for Movies. Backup is via a 2TB TC.

I have 1 SATA reserve because one of the ODD-SATA is dedicated to my Blu-Ray ROM.

With this plan obviously not working I might have to buy two SSDs and use all my ports. I like to keep one free for copies.

[nanofrog]

Has a dual-boot over RAID of OSX and Windows been done to begin with?
With hardware, Yes, IIRC. But I've not yet seen it done successfully with OS (software). :(

I'm guessing, but a fake RAID solution should work as well, as the drivers are supplied by the manufacturer, and the technique (low level operation) should be the same between OS drivers. Finding one of these that can boot on both a Mac and PC may be difficult to find though. :confused: I've not looked for one, so I don't know for sure. :o

AFAIK, certain RAID cards need flashing for booting either Windows or OSX.... Or with Areca's cards, is the flashing just for EFI support, regardless of OS:confused:
Highpoint can only hold the EFI or BIOS version of firmware. If you're using Linux and Windows, the BIOS version can boot both, but if the EFI variant is loaded, only OS X will boot. :(

As boards switch to some form of EFI (UEFI 2.1), this would hopefully change, but it won't help currently. (I've only seen an MSI board running UEFI 2.1, and it was an experimental).

Areca apparently can do multiple OS's. :) The EFI is an add-on as I understand it, but there's a member here who got it to boot into OS X without even installing it. :D Atto as well, but I've not ever used one on a Mac, and can't say from my own experience this is actually the case.

I'd sent emails to both companies about this, and didn't get a clear answer from either.

I don't have a Mac anymore, nor have I yet made my current machine a hackintosh. So anything I might manage to do (Areca's), would only have implications in the hackintosh community. :(

[gugucom]

This should really be addressed by Apple. The disk utility is very good for OS X but this BootCamp app is pure crap. It should be integrated in disk utility and let you set up the whole shebang.

[nanofrog]

I currently have 2 x 64 GB SSDs striped for OS X. I wanted to add another 64 GB to the array and cut of 21 GB of each for Vista. So I would end up with 63 GB for Windows which ist just good enough. Both arrays would probably have been faster that way.

The fourth position in my Mac Pro currently has a 1TB for Movies. Backup is via a 2TB TC.

I have 1 SATA reserve because one of the ODD-SATA is dedicated to my Blu-Ray ROM.

With this plan obviously not working I might have to buy two SSDs and use all my ports. I like to keep one free for copies.
Yeah, it looks like the solution is a separate SSD for windows stuffed in the empty optical bay. Eats the remaining SATA port, and the cost of another drive. Ouch. :( :(

I wish all this effort had turned out for you, but it seems Windows and OS X are just too different from one another to make it work. :rolleyes: //grrr.

I guess the one thing that did come out of all of this, is a definite answer. --It won't work, unless the arrays are on separate drives.--

[Dr.Pants]

With hardware, Yes, IIRC. But I've not yet seen it done successfully with OS (software). :(

I would imagine it being VERY difficult with software, if not impossible - thank you EFI/OSX?

Can one dual-boot with software RAID under BIOS? It may simply be that EFI is outdated (nobody had thought of software RAID with two OSes at the time of conception). I could just be the new kid on the block, thinking that everything is old :)


Highpoint can only hold the EFI or BIOS version of firmware. If you're using Linux and Windows, the BIOS version can boot both, but if the EFI variant is loaded, only OS X will boot. :(..... Areca apparently can do multiple OS's. :)

Epic facedesk on my part.

As boards switch to some form of EFI (UEFI 2.1), this would hopefully change, but it won't help currently. (I've only seen an MSI board running UEFI 2.1, and it was an experimental).
As long as there as UEFI is BIOS-esque in interface, it spanks EFI currently :D

I don't have a Mac anymore, nor have I yet made my current machine a hackintosh. So anything I might manage to do (Areca's), would only have implications in the hackintosh community. :(

And this is a bad thing how:confused::D I kid, I kid. I would never make a Häkkentosh... for my main work machine. Rendering nodes are a different matter:D

[nanofrog]

I would imagine it being VERY difficult with software, if not impossible - thank you EFI/OSX?

Can one dual-boot with software RAID under BIOS? It may simply be that EFI is outdated (nobody had thought of software RAID with two OSes at the time of conception). I could just be the new kid on the block, thinking that everything is old :)
IIRC, it's been done with Windows and Linux. But the simplest solution is the same as gugucom ran into. Place each OS on it's own array.

As long as there as UEFI is BIOS-esque in interface, it spanks EFI currently :D
EFI and it's variants (UEFI 2.0 & 2.1) are far newer than BIOS. It's just Apple does their own implementation of it (based off EFI 1.10, but not exactly standard). They don't even allow users to access any of the settings, so I don't blame the firmware standard used. ;) :p

And this is a bad thing how:confused::D I kid, I kid. I would never make a Häkkentosh... for my main work machine. Rendering nodes are a different matter:D
I don't regret sending the Mac Pro back one iota. :D It wasn't going to do what I needed well, or cost effectively. The need for external enclosures killed the savings, and VM wasn't going to work for a specific purpose (attempting to run LabVIEW under OS X, and MultiSIM under Windows VM; I couldn't get data to pass properly, and National Instruments couldn't figure out what was wrone either).

So I sent it back, eating the return shipping and restocking fee. I waited until Nehalem came out, and DIY'ed my system, but it's only running Windows (primary OS) and Linux (has it's uses). :)

[gugucom]

On a final thought I'm just wondering why Intel post this driver package as RAID and AHCI. When I search in the package I find nothing that supports RAID. Have I overlooked something?

[nanofrog]

On a final thought I'm just wondering why Intel post this driver package as RAID and AHCI. When I search in the package I find nothing that supports RAID. Have I overlooked something?
The RAID set is just an extension of AHCI, and are included in the driver package. :)

************************************************************
* 1. OVERVIEW
************************************************************

The Intel(R) Matrix Storage Manager is designed to provide
functionality for the following Storage Controllers:

- Intel(R) 82801HEM SATA RAID I/O Controller
- Intel(R) 82801HEM SATA AHCI I/O Controller
- Intel(R) 82801HBM SATA AHCI I/O Controller
- Intel(R) 82801HR/HH/HO SATA RAID Controller
- Intel(R) 82801HR/HH/HO SATA AHCI Controller
- Intel(R) 631xESB/632xESB SATA RAID Controller
- Intel(R) 631xESB/632xESB SATA AHCI Controller
- Intel(R) 82801GHM SATA RAID Controller
- Intel(R) 82801GBM SATA AHCI Controller
- Intel(R) 82801GR SATA RAID Controller
- Intel(R) 82801GR SATA AHCI Controller
- Intel(R) 82801GH SATA RAID Controller
- Intel(R) 82801GH SATA AHCI Controller
- Intel(R) 82801FR SATA RAID Controller
- Intel(R) 82801FR SATA AHCI Controller
- Intel(R) 82801FBM SATA AHCI Controller

This product is available for use on systems using the
Intel(R) Pentium(R) Processor or Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo
Processor with the following I/O Controller Hub:

- Intel(R) 82801HEM I/O Controller Hub (ICH8M-E)
- Intel(R) 82801HBM I/O Controller Hub (ICH8M)
- Intel(R) 82801HR/HH/HO I/O Controller Hub (ICH8R)
- Intel(R) 631xESB/632xESB I/O Controller Hub (ESB2)
- Intel(R) 82801GHM I/O Controller Hub (ICH7MR)
- Intel(R) 82801GBM I/O Controller Hub (ICH7M)
- Intel(R) 82801GR I/O Controller Hub (ICH7R)
- Intel(R) 82801GH I/O controller Hub (ICH7DH)
- Intel(R) 82801FR I/O Controller Hub (ICH6R)
- Intel(R) 82801FBM I/O Controller Hub (ICH6M)

The above is from the ReadMe.txt on Intel's site (link (http://downloadmirror.intel.com/14794/ENG/readme.txt)). It also applies to ICH9 & ICH10 variants. ;)

[DoFoT9]

Not a bad idea, provided you can get paid. :eek: I did stuff like that in the past, and had problems with individuals and small businesses. More than a few bankruptcies and deadbeats... :rolleyes: :mad:
i know tell me about it :( people are so scummy these days..


It's a free and legit download (Aug. 20, not the 22nd :o). So get it now.
DOWNLOAD (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/dd353205.aspx)
thanks!! but that will only last for 15 days lol!!! not sure if its worth it, the download is hefty.


They're out there, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, for some weird reason, they end up as the boss. :eek: Seriously.
great! :rolleyes: sucking up here i come.


Befriend those that have something to offer, as they can help you understand how things go, including office politics (a sad reality I'm afraid, and you do have to play). :rolleyes: Usually a few good stories too. :)
i will, its often the quiet ones that know a lot and have a lot to say.


I started out in Materials (polymers & semiconductor specialization), but the job I got after I graduated sucked (Quality Control in polymers). I absolutely couldn't stand it, as I was bored to tears. So I went back to school for Computer Engineering. I learned a lot, but it specialized in digital circuits, so my knowledge of analog was far more limited (fewer classes than the EE side). What I know about it now, is out of experience, and I could still stand to learn more. Another area I've learned outside of course work, would be cooling. One course in Fluid Dynamics left me woefully under prepared. :p
wow.... thats incredible!! congrats on all that, i could only wish to learn that stuff, so complicated!


Experience. You'll learn it out of necessity, or end up unemployed. :eek: :D
great, thanks.. meany haha!


For me, I tend to concentrate on the physical area, but that's circuits. ;)
circuits are quite interesting, (switches and gates eheh), but my knowledge is limited, i understand the basics though :) out of all the languages i have done so far (C++, java, some applescript, assembly) i have enjoyed assembly :) its great fun

I don't have a Mac anymore, nor have I yet made my current machine a hackintosh. So anything I might manage to do (Areca's), would only have implications in the hackintosh community. :(

im sure we can sort something out :p

And this is a bad thing how:confused::D I kid, I kid. I would never make a Häkkentosh... for my main work machine. Rendering nodes are a different matter:D

awww come on, they are very stable (if you do it right)..

[gugucom]

Yes, I read the readme. What looked kind of suspicious to me is the Storage matrix manager program. That is supposed to have a RAID setup or at least monitor. You can see example pics in the online help of the program. Although I have now fitted a RAID0 with the Disk program in Vista I see nothing of this in the storage manager.

[nanofrog]

thanks!! but that will only last for 15 days lol!!! not sure if its worth it, the download is hefty.
Nope! :eek: The ability to download it dissappears on August 20, but the software doesn't expire until June 1, 2010. :D But starting on March 1, 2010, your PC will begin shutting down every two hours. ;)

That should give you enough time to save up for a copy. :)

great! :rolleyes: sucking up here i come.
Get used to it! :eek: Maybe a set of good knee pads is in order as well. :D :p

circuits are quite interesting, (switches and gates eheh), but my knowledge is limited, i understand the basics though :) out of all the languages i have done so far (C++, java, some applescript, assembly) i have enjoyed assembly :) its great fun
Meh, it's not that hard. Wait a minute, why the hell did I say that, given the number of times I chase down things like jitter, skew, and timing problems? :eek: :p That's part of the challenge, though it can make me want to rip out some hair at times. ;)

It's fun to see something physically materialize. More so than software for me at any rate. :)

awww come on, they are very stable (if you do it right)..
I wouldn't have problem with building a hackintosh, and am quite interested. Just haven't gotten around to do it yet. ;)

Yes, I read the readme. What looked kind of suspicious to me is the Storage matrix manager program. That is supposed to have a RAID setup or at least monitor. You can see example pics in the online help of the program. Although I have now fitted a RAID0 with the Disk program in Vista I see nothing of this in the storage manager.
It's there. :)

Click the Start menu, goto All Programs, and scroll down until you see a folder called Intel Matrix Storage Manager. The application is located there. :D

[DoFoT9]

Nope! :eek: The ability to download it dissappears on August 20, but the software doesn't expire until June 1, 2010. :D But starting on March 1, 2010, your PC will begin shutting down every two hours. ;)

That should give you enough time to save up for a copy. :)

oh! well that makes sense! *gets ready to download* i daresay dad could get a copy of it from school for cheap (being a school teacher)... for around $50, so that problem is solved.

Get used to it! :eek: Maybe a set of good knee pads is in order as well. :D :p
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, ill have to find my roller blade knee pads from 10 years ago :p


Meh, it's not that hard. Wait a minute, why the hell did I say that, given the number of times I chase down things like jitter, skew, and timing problems? :eek: :p That's part of the challenge, though it can make me want to rip out some hair at times. ;)
from what ive seen, its crazy! all people that do it are wowzers. x -> y logic haha.

It's fun to see something physically materialize. More so than software for me at any rate. :)
oh yea, the software people basically need you to write the lower programs!! (well not anymore, but you know).


I wouldn't have problem with building a hackintosh, and am quite interested. Just haven't gotten around to do it yet. ;)
well then get to it!! my PM is there somewhere hahahaha give it a read :)

[nanofrog]

oh! well that makes sense! *gets ready to download* i daresay dad could get a copy of it from school for cheap (being a school teacher)... for around $50, so that problem is solved.
What?!? You're not done yet? Hop to it man! :D

from what ive seen, its crazy! all people that do it are wowzers. x -> y logic haha.
Of course. ;) That's part of the job description. :D :p

oh yea, the software people basically need you to write the lower programs!! (well not anymore, but you know).
I wish more programmers did understand the low level aspects better. Too much reliance on the higher level is causing code bloat, and poor functionality. :rolleyes: :(

They're depending on the compiler to do it for them, and it's too general. It can't really optimize the code well, and is left to the programmer. :rolleyes:

Software engineers that are good at it, should be able to remain employed as long as they wish, or at least manage to avoid the loony bin. ;) :p

well then get to it!! my PM is there somewhere hahahaha give it a read :)
email sent. ;)

[UltraNEO*]

I was wondering what you good folks was talking about..

Yeah I downloaded when it was released, the file took a while to actually complete then again MS's servers were really busy! Thing is though, I ain't got any space on the Mac for it, it's gonna have to wait till i return home.. think i'll whack it onto the PC!!

[DoFoT9]

I was wondering what you good folks was talking about..

Yeah I downloaded when it was released, the file took a while to actually complete then again MS's servers were really busy! Thing is though, I ain't got any space on the Mac for it, it's gonna have to wait till i return home.. think i'll whack it onto the PC!!

haha :p i cant download it! i just left it going for an hour, and the ball was spinning away... doing nothing..

What?!? You're not done yet? Hop to it man! :D
it wont! :(


I wish more programmers did understand the low level aspects better. Too much reliance on the higher level is causing code bloat, and poor functionality. :rolleyes: :(

They're depending on the compiler to do it for them, and it's too general. It can't really optimize the code well, and is left to the programmer. :rolleyes:

yes it really doesnt promote good coding practices does it! the majority of people coding properly is very low..even M$ doesnt do it very well (if you have looked at their code, you'd understand :rolleyes: it is R18+ material!).

this has been a complaint of mine for a long time, because CPU power has kept increasing people have not cared to make them very efficient and expected the power to fix it, but now that we are in a 'dry spell' i hope that people will change..

Software engineers that are good at it, should be able to remain employed as long as they wish, or at least manage to avoid the loony bin. ;) :p
too bad im not in engineering aye! ill come back in 5 years and see if your crazy yet eheh

[quote]email sent. ;)
awsome! im doing some research now for you and formulating (its complicated stuff :p) a reply..:):D

p.s. you use too many smilies ;)

[nanofrog]

haha :p i cant download it! i just left it going for an hour, and the ball was spinning away... doing nothing..
I wonder what's wrong? Perhaps that the link is in the US? The slackers making a mad dash to get it before it's gone from the site? :confused:

Try again, but here's the .au site (http://www.microsoft.com/en/au/default.aspx) just in case it is the US site won't let you (it wouldn't let me get to the .au download section), and see if you can get to the right place if needed.

yes it really doesnt promote good coding practices does it! the majority of people coding properly is very low..even M$ doesnt do it very well (if you have looked at their code, you'd understand :rolleyes: it is R18+ material!).

this has been a complaint of mine for a long time, because CPU power has kept increasing people have not cared to make them very efficient and expected the power to fix it, but now that we are in a 'dry spell' i hope that people will change..
MS, and most other sw developers have been dragging their heels for quite some time. Too much recycled/spaghetti code. :rolleyes: They don't want to take the time to go back and start fresh, due to the time/effort = costs involved.

awsome! im doing some research now for you and formulating (its complicated stuff :p) a reply..:):D

p.s. you use too many smilies ;)
:cool: Thanks. :D

P.S. It's fun. :p

[DoFoT9]

I wonder what's wrong? Perhaps that the link is in the US? The slackers making a mad dash to get it before it's gone from the site? :confused:

maybe?? im not sure...

Try again, but here's the .au site (http://www.microsoft.com/en/au/default.aspx) just in case it is the US site won't let you (it wouldn't let me get to the .au download section), and see if you can get to the right place if needed.

i found the link to the RC, but when you choose everything it goes to the US site!! and the spinning thing is going again.. this is on the 32-bit one, i may aswell get the 64-bit one (then i cant install it on my MBP).


MS, and most other sw developers have been dragging their heels for quite some time. Too much recycled/spaghetti code. :rolleyes: They don't want to take the time to go back and start fresh, due to the time/effort = costs involved.

Adobe have been too, and they consider themselves professional apps! :eek: but yea, it would cost ALOT to go back.. start from scratch, not worth it for them..


:cool: Thanks. :D

P.S. It's fun. :p

email sent :) happy reading lol

[nightfly13]

I saw this thread a few days ago and, while I thought I was pretty sure, didn't want to pipe in prematurely to say 'Software RAIDs can't dual boot' which is always what I understood. Is this basically the truth we're discovering?

Incidentally, OP if I were you, I'd calculate how much space Bootcamp requires and buy a designated SSD accordingly.. or cheap out and buy one of those old school spinning disks :)

[gugucom]

I saw this thread a few days ago and, while I thought I was pretty sure, didn't want to pipe in prematurely to say 'Software RAIDs can't dual boot' which is always what I understood. Is this basically the truth we're discovering?

Incidentally, OP if I were you, I'd calculate how much space Bootcamp requires and buy a designated SSD accordingly.. or cheap out and buy one of those old school spinning disks :)

I don't think the "software RAID" is the issue here. We demonstrated that mixed OS booting from one array is feasible. Were we fell down was the lack of granularity of the Vista internal disk management program. If the syntax was applicable to volumes and not only to complete disks we could have done it. With hindsight it looks foolish to have spend the time to find that out but must say it was also fun and would have been very cool to achieve. As it is Vista will have to stay on his spinning disk for some more weeks until the new Intel SSDs touch down in Germany. I will then probably shift the Supertalent SSDs from OS X to Vista and use the new Intels for OS X.

[UltraNEO*]

haha :p i cant download it! i just left it going for an hour, and the ball was spinning away... doing nothing..


it wont! :(

That's odd...
What browser are you using? I'm using Firefox and it works...

[DoFoT9]

I saw this thread a few days ago and, while I thought I was pretty sure, didn't want to pipe in prematurely to say 'Software RAIDs can't dual boot' which is always what I understood. Is this basically the truth we're discovering?

Its unfortunate that this method doesnt seem to work with vista, i wonder how xp would handle it..

im really liking this method as it gives a nice speed increase whilst giving you the flexibility to dualboot (theoretically anyway lol).

I have just wish it was a bit more redundant lol! I purchased a hd caddy to go in the optical bay of my mbp so i guess i can try this in the next few months too :) there has to be a way around it.

That's odd...
What browser are you using? I'm using Firefox and it works...
Yea its really odd. I am using the latest safari, i didnt think of ff ill give that a try nice suggestion.

[gugucom]

It's there. :)

Click the Start menu, goto All Programs, and scroll down until you see a folder called Intel Matrix Storage Manager. The application is located there. :D

I actually knew where it is. It simply does not do what it is supposed to do.

I dunno why, because thing thing would be all I needed. I have ordered two Intel 80GB now.

[DoFoT9]

I actually knew where it is. It simply does not do what it is supposed to do.

I dunno why, because thing thing would be all I needed. I have ordered two Intel 80GB now.

Wow if only i could afford that lol... What line of work are u in?

[nanofrog]

I actually knew where it is. It simply does not do what it is supposed to do.

I dunno why, because thing thing would be all I needed. I have ordered two Intel 80GB now.
Ah. I wasn't sure, as I had to hunt for it myself when I built my system, I remembered reading about it just as you had.

I've only looked at it a couple of times, and it does seem rather useless.

[DoFoT9]

Ah. I wasn't sure, as I had to hunt for it myself when I built my system, I remembered reading about it just as you had.

I've only looked at it a couple of times, and it does seem rather useless.

having a small but fairly in-depth Microsoft Networking Certificate, that disc management tool is very handy :) especially in a server environment! i can see where it would be advantageous.

[nanofrog]

having a small but fairly in-depth Microsoft Networking Certificate, that disc management tool is very handy :) especially in a server environment! i can see where it would be advantageous.
I'm using it in a workstation environment, and the same information can be found elsewhere, so I wasn't impressed.

But currently, none of the drives on the ICH10R are in software RAID either, and it was a brief experiment when I got the system first assembled (April-ish of this year).

[DoFoT9]

I'm using it in a workstation environment, and the same information can be found elsewhere, so I wasn't impressed.

But currently, none of the drives on the ICH10R are in software RAID either, and it was a brief experiment when I got the system first assembled (April-ish of this year).

ahh right. its such a stupid piece of software to use though! very M$

Disk Utility is so much easier (although a tad general), what other third party software is there to set up software RAIDs??

[nanofrog]

ahh right. its such a stupid piece of software to use though! very M$

Disk Utility is so much easier (although a tad general), what other third party software is there to set up software RAIDs??
Other than the included drivers for say a Fake RAID card, I'm not aware of any for Windows, but I've not looked that hard either.

I do recall spotting something for OS X in the forum though, and it may be this (http://www.softraid.com/press.html).

[DoFoT9]

Other than the included drivers for say a Fake RAID card, I'm not aware of any for Windows, but I've not looked that hard either.

I do recall spotting something for OS X in the forum though, and it may be this (http://www.softraid.com/press.html).

sorry i should have specified, i was referring to RAID software for Windows machines ;) but OSX software is good too!! ill put it in my archive :) hope it works lol