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View Full Version : Letter to Apple: No more Windows apps, please!


sigamy
Jun 17, 2004, 12:58 PM
I had to run over to my local Apple store last night to have them look at my iBook hinge. The hinge makes a terrible cracking sound when I open the iBook (I took a chance with an online sale and now I may be getting burned). Anyway, I put my name in for the genius bar and saw that there were 5 people ahead of me. I sat and waited as the Genius helped people with mainly iPod issues.

Then he calls the next name and someone goes up to the bar and pulls out his huge, piece of crap Compaq laptop and starts to say that he can't do this or that with iTunes. The Genius first said, "well we don't support PCs". But then he went on to help the guy anyway. There were actually 2 guys, each with PC laptops and the genius was helping them sync or something. I could over hear things like "I don't know if I have firewire" and "firewire driver" etc. They went on for 20 minutes. It was a Nightmare. I had to sit there--in the Apple Store--and wait in line behind PC people. Just didn't seem right to me.

Here's one hope that Apple does not port any more iApps to Windows. The support drain would be enormous. I don't see any other apps moving over, because there isn't a hardware device to sell alongside. Thank goodness for that.

PlaceofDis
Jun 17, 2004, 01:06 PM
that really sux, and i hope that Apple doesnt develop any more apps for Windows either because that wouldnt be beneficial to apple at all, iTunes i can understand, but some people want iPhoto to be ported, but why? apple doesnt have a digital camera to sell along side of the app, or digital photos. I personally think the genius should have told the people to wait until he finished helping people with supported systems and then see what he could do for them.

Converted2Truth
Jun 17, 2004, 01:16 PM
I had to run over to my local Apple store last night to have them look at my iBook hinge. The hinge makes a terrible cracking sound when I open the iBook (I took a chance with an online sale and now I may be getting burned). Anyway, I put my name in for the genius bar and saw that there were 5 people ahead of me. I sat and waited as the Genius helped people with mainly iPod issues.

Then he calls the next name and someone goes up to the bar and pulls out his huge, piece of crap Compaq laptop and starts to say that he can't do this or that with iTunes. The Genius first said, "well we don't support PCs". But then he went on to help the guy anyway. There were actually 2 guys, each with PC laptops and the genius was helping them sync or something. I could over hear things like "I don't know if I have firewire" and "firewire driver" etc. They went on for 20 minutes. It was a Nightmare. I had to sit there--in the Apple Store--and wait in line behind PC people. Just didn't seem right to me.

Here's one hope that Apple does not port any more iApps to Windows. The support drain would be enormous. I don't see any other apps moving over, because there isn't a hardware device to sell alongside. Thank goodness for that.

I know that had to suck...waiting for an unsupported issue to conclude while you stand by with a supported issue (as a loyal paying customer rather than a freeriding winteller) but keep in mind that it was the techs who made the bad decision to help the pc guys, not apple. They should have at least made the pc dudes wait until supported issues were taken care of...

I agree with you on not porting any more iApps to microsoft systems... and i think the only reason they ported iTunes was to dominate market share in a new dimension of electronics. If they hadn't done that, iTunes would be out of business by now... and we'd be playing wal*mart .wma tunes through windows media player from inside virtual pc.

krimson
Jun 17, 2004, 01:42 PM
Think of it like this...

Apple is the crack dealer, and itunes is just a sample of what they could get if they switched. ;D

hulugu
Jun 17, 2004, 01:58 PM
I agree with you on not porting any more iApps to microsoft systems... and i think the only reason they ported iTunes was to dominate market share in a new dimension of electronics. If they hadn't done that, iTunes would be out of business by now... and we'd be playing wal*mart .wma tunes through windows media player from inside virtual pc.

That sucks that he had to wait, but iTunes has been a boon for Apple and I hope they consider porting iChat AV and the iSight to Windows, because not enough of my friends use Macs and I really would like to use the iSight.
When Apple builds a product that is platform independent (not a Mac) they should make it portable to the Windows world because that gives more creedence to Apple. If a Windows user is using an iPod w/ iTunes, iSight w/ iChat AV, an Apple monitor and Airport Express w/ Airtunes they've become an Apple customer.
And when this user is ready to buy a new computer, what are they more likely to buy given all the above.

kgarner
Jun 17, 2004, 02:18 PM
That sucks that he had to wait, but iTunes has been a boon for Apple and I hope they consider porting iChat AV and the iSight to Windows, because not enough of my friends use Macs and I really would like to use the iSight.
Can't you still use the iSight and have your friends get on the latest version of AIM? The two are supposed to be compatible now.

question fear
Jun 17, 2004, 02:19 PM
my guess is the tech guys are told in the interests of customer service to help people even with unsupported computers. it looks better for apple and for the individual stores. in addition, as someone else started to point out, it exposes that person to apple as a potential switcher. they also are surrounded by apple computers that look pretty, run itunes well, and are clearly backed up by great support.
I am sure the techs did not intend to make you wait, but also did not feel comfortable dismissing someone to the end of the line for not having an apple computer.
(If it helps, think of this in a different example. I work in a bookstore, so this comes from experience. Let's say I am helping whoever is at registers, and there's a line. When the next customer comes up to me, they want a book from a far away section they can't find. Do I a) tell them it's an unsupported request and send them to the empty info desk (where whoever was there is helping someone in section) or do I walk them to the book, then come back to help any other customers left at registers? I take them to the book, and while it leaves registers shortstaffed, it still helps the customer in front of me. Make sense?)

-Carly

Horrortaxi
Jun 17, 2004, 02:56 PM
When I go to the Genius bar I always know what's going to happen. I have a display with a bunch of dead pixels, an iBook with a dead logic board, an Airport Extreme base with 3 blinking lights, or an iPod which I think has a bad hard drive. I know what questions they'll ask, I know my answers, I know what happens next. I've already researched my problem and if it was fixable I would have fixed it. It's just a formality that I have to go through them. They spend 5 minutes with me and send my broken stuff off so I can get new stuff back. I am Mr. Efficient.

Almost every time I go to the Genius Bar I have between 2 and 16 million people ahead of me--most of whom have iPod problems. Some seem to have done incredibly stupid things with their iPods but the vast majority have PC laptops with them and are crying. This annoys me to no end. I'm an efficient person and a Mac Bigot. I want to stomp on their Toshibas and tell them to go stand in line at Circuit City.

I don't know if I agree with "no more Windows apps" because, ironically, it's good for the Mac platform for them to exist. I do think there should be a special line for PC users at the Apple store though.

bousozoku
Jun 17, 2004, 03:02 PM
my guess is the tech guys are told in the interests of customer service to help people even with unsupported computers. it looks better for apple and for the individual stores. in addition, as someone else started to point out, it exposes that person to apple as a potential switcher. they also are surrounded by apple computers that look pretty, run itunes well, and are clearly backed up by great support.
I am sure the techs did not intend to make you wait, but also did not feel comfortable dismissing someone to the end of the line for not having an apple computer.
(If it helps, think of this in a different example. I work in a bookstore, so this comes from experience. Let's say I am helping whoever is at registers, and there's a line. When the next customer comes up to me, they want a book from a far away section they can't find. Do I a) tell them it's an unsupported request and send them to the empty info desk (where whoever was there is helping someone in section) or do I walk them to the book, then come back to help any other customers left at registers? I take them to the book, and while it leaves registers shortstaffed, it still helps the customer in front of me. Make sense?)

-Carly

That's the right attitude. :)

I'm sure that those PC people had probably been ignored enough already. Still, if they had been told at an Apple store that they didn't matter, that would have bad news that would have been spread. Obviously, that cuts into the number of switchers or even the iPod buyers. It's much better to show them the right thing.

sigamy
Jun 17, 2004, 03:14 PM
I want to stomp on their Toshibas and tell them to go stand in line at Circuit City.

Yes!

mkrishnan
Jun 17, 2004, 03:45 PM
I've already researched my problem and if it was fixable I would have fixed it. It's just a formality that I have to go through them. They spend 5 minutes with me and send my broken stuff off so I can get new stuff back. I am Mr. Efficient.

This is my impression of almost all technical CSRs everywhere in the world. :( I'm so sick of calling people for help and finding out they know less than me about the topic....

Sigamy, I totally sympathize....that does suck. But OTOH I want iTMS to survive if not dominate and I think iPod/iTunes for Win is a necessary evil. :( And if Apple comes out with any other service that, like iTunes, involves recurring purchases of licensed content from users and needs scale to survive, I'll want them to offer it for Windows too. Double :(:(.

But I guess it'll only get worse when the Express comes out and you have Win users trying to stream music, huh? ;)

mkrishnan
Jun 17, 2004, 03:49 PM
Oooh, ooh, quote of the day, just to make you all smile. This was in a NYT article that was in another tab and I hadn't gotten around to reading yet, when I was reading this thread.

"The world is full of amazing things. But doesn't it seem as though there's always some fly in the ointment, some little annoyance that you wish you could obliterate? With e-mail, it's spam; with DVD's, it's the F.B.I. warning that you can't fast-forward through; with PC's, it's Windows."

Of course we know it, amusing to see it in a NYT article tho'. ;)

edesignuk
Jun 17, 2004, 04:10 PM
Those Windows users you are moaning about are making Apple a lot of money, they wont turn them away when they need help. What good would that do. Isn't the whole point of all this (ok, part of the point) to get Windows users to have an iPod, get iTunes, think "this is great", start checking out the local mac store, and maybe, just maybe, "switch". You think this would happen if they got no support from Apple just because they are currently using Apple products on Windows systems?

dongmin
Jun 17, 2004, 04:35 PM
Those Windows users you are moaning about are making Apple a lot of money, they wont turn them away when they need help. What good would that do. Isn't the whole point of all this (ok, part of the point) to get Windows users to have an iPod, get iTunes, think "this is great", start checking out the local mac store, and maybe, just maybe, "switch". You think this would happen if they got no support from Apple just because they are currently using Apple products on Windows systems?Unfortunately, this is the Brave New World of Windows-compatible Apple Products. Without the iPod and iTMS and the fact that they're cross-platform, Apple's stock would be dead-in-the-water. Think about it: outside the music-related announcements, Apple hasn't really done anything buzz-worthy in a while. The G5 was big. The software releases have been good. And that's about it. The flat-panel iMac is outdated and irrelevant. The PowerBooks are forever stuck on G4s. Really, not a whole lot in the hardware world.

Come on Apple, give us loyal Mac users something to really cheer about! A new form-factor iMac. A tablet-pda-vpod thingy. A new PowerBook running on e600s. New displays. Something.

question fear
Jun 17, 2004, 04:44 PM
this is more than just kissing windows user butt....it sounds like what the original poster was complaining about was not getting preferential treatment over non-supported windows hardware at the apple store. and yea, it sucks he had to wait, but thats customer service, and if apple genius bars were sitting there picking and choosing out of lines based on hardware people would be screaming about how snobby and rude apple stores are.
i really don't see how someone can want the apple stores to survive but want to practice active discrimination against people who dont use apple hardware.
-carly

solvs
Jun 17, 2004, 04:56 PM
I know it's frustrating having to wait. But think if it this way, out of 10 of those, even if only 1 switches, yeh for us. More Macs users = higher market share = more profit for Apple = lower prices, etc. (you get the idea)

Especially if after they fix the problems they say "now of course, if you had a Mac, this wouldn't happen". I know I do whenever I fix my family and friends PCs. ;)

MisterMe
Jun 17, 2004, 06:14 PM
...it sounds like what the original poster was complaining about was not getting preferential treatment over non-supported windows hardware at the apple store....

i really don't see how someone can want the apple stores to survive but want to practice active discrimination against people who dont use apple hardware.
-carlysigamy was clearly being facetious. The Apple Store doesn't carry senses of humor. Perhaps, it should.

rdowns
Jun 17, 2004, 06:21 PM
Allow me to remove my Mac zealot colored glasses and say I think the Genius did the right thing. Apple sold a Windows user an iPod and gave them iTunes. Seems they are obligated to offer help if needed. How can Apple say a PC is unsupported if they sell peripherals for it?

mgargan1
Jun 17, 2004, 11:36 PM
Unfortunately, this is the Brave New World of Windows-compatible Apple Products. Without the iPod and iTMS and the fact that they're cross-platform, Apple's stock would be dead-in-the-water. Think about it: outside the music-related announcements, Apple hasn't really done anything buzz-worthy in a while. The G5 was big. The software releases have been good. And that's about it. The flat-panel iMac is outdated and irrelevant. The PowerBooks are forever stuck on G4s. Really, not a whole lot in the hardware world.

Come on Apple, give us loyal Mac users something to really cheer about! A new form-factor iMac. A tablet-pda-vpod thingy. A new PowerBook running on e600s. New displays. Something.

just wait until after WWDC to start complaining...

question fear
Jun 18, 2004, 08:59 AM
sigamy was clearly being facetious. The Apple Store doesn't carry senses of humor. Perhaps, it should.

while there were some people who posted to this thread who were being facetious, i think sigamy was at least somewhat serious in his/her complaint about the treatment received. if im wrong then the i missed the humor, but i didnt think that post was a joke...

kelvinz
Jun 18, 2004, 11:31 AM
Think of it like this...

Apple is the crack dealer, and itunes is just a sample of what they could get if they switched. ;D

I totally agree with that, I now own a rev c powerbook cause of itunes and the ipod.

though I would never replace my desktop PC.

sketchy
Jun 18, 2004, 12:45 PM
Allow me to remove my Mac zealot colored glasses and say I think the Genius did the right thing. Apple sold a Windows user an iPod and gave them iTunes. Seems they are obligated to offer help if needed. How can Apple say a PC is unsupported if they sell peripherals for it?

Apple does support PC's if it is related to an Apple product. ITMS and the iPod are supported at the stores. If a user comes in and it will not boot, then they can turn them away. The store staff are trained in PC's -- they have to know how to migrate a user from windows to a mac - data conversion

kafelatte
Jun 18, 2004, 01:19 PM
Come on Apple, give us loyal Mac users something to really cheer about! A new form-factor iMac. A tablet-pda-vpod thingy. A new PowerBook running on e600s. New displays. Something.

I have seen hundreds of PowerMacs installed at dozens of design shops where the only thing added to that huge box is RAM. Do volume corporate buyers, or people with tiny NYC Studio Apts, REALLY need that big box with empty PCI slots and drive bays wasting space? But we all need that 23" flat panel.
So how about a headless iMac dual 2g G5? Oh wait, that was the Cube.
I guess I await a G5 powerbook dual 2gig with a miracle cooling device. Hah.

MisterMe
Jun 18, 2004, 01:24 PM
.... i think ....I see where you went wrong. .... but i didnt think...Fantastic, you figured it out.

darkwing
Jun 18, 2004, 02:54 PM
It seems to me that having PC users in the Apple store waiting for the genius bar is a good thing. It gives them a chance to see the lovely Apple products and reconsider their travel down the wrong path

Horrortaxi
Jun 18, 2004, 03:00 PM
It seems to me that having PC users in the Apple store waiting for the genius bar is a good thing. It gives them a chance to see the lovely Apple products and reconsider their travel down the wrong path
People who don't know enough about computers to make iTunes work on their PC don't have enough insight into computers in general to realize they've made the wrong choice. They don't realize there is a choice. I do agree with you though--the store gives them some exposure to Apple products and at least gives them a hint that there are choices.

mkrishnan
Jun 18, 2004, 03:34 PM
People who don't know enough about computers to make iTunes work on their PC don't have enough insight into computers in general to realize they've made the wrong choice. They don't realize there is a choice. I do agree with you though--the store gives them some exposure to Apple products and at least gives them a hint that there are choices.

Hmmm...yes and no. I mean the problem with Windows and even MacOS is that when things *don't* work at all like they're supposed to, except for the most, most, most sophisticated users, we don't know what to do. We meaning we who know how to program multiple programming languages, understand the basics of centralized and distributed application architecture, and could build a PC from components easily, so know HW too.

Like someone posted a story about printing on an Epson photo printer. They plugged it into the Win XP PC and it didn't autodetect. They rebooted and it didn't autodetect. They did manual detect and it wouldn't install. The kicker...they downloaded the installation disk and ran it and *nothing* happened. I might be able to figure it out, but if I solved it, I would have to be honest and say 85% chance it would be dumb luck -- things no more sophisticated than rebooting several times and it works one time even though each try was procedurally identical, or smacking the computer and then trying again and having it work for no reason.

Another story is, I bought a USB IRDA adapter for my PC. It worked -- the drivers installed, the TSR came up, I got an icon on my taskbar. I installed Nokia's sync utility on top of it. Fine. The sync utility could see the phone. But only for a couple seconds. It would lose connection at point blank range systematically, and never stayed connected long enough to sync. I tried tweaking every available parameter in terms of timeouts, signal strength, interference, etc, etc. Nothing. I guess if I spent a lot of time trying to get a free-after-rebate adapter to work, I might eventually, but considering that it was a backup to the sync on my work PC, I gave up.

My point is that sometimes the level of digging needed to fix these things -- and it happens on Mac's too (eg stories of AEBS's that need to be reset every couple of weeks or need you to drop and reconnect the AE card every time you wake the Mac up -- there are several people who complained about this on Macrumors and with our help couldn't solve it and just rolled over) -- my point is that sometimes these are emblemmatic of bad debugging.

And I think there are enough iTunes/PC stories from competent users to believe that's a part of the issue with that product. So, maybe there are a fair number of idiots in the line, who don't even understand a choice conceptually; there are probably a lot of people who still have hope too.

kylos
Jun 18, 2004, 03:42 PM
I see where you went wrong. Fantastic, you figured it out.

Look, that's uncalled for. Contribute, or don't post.

question fear
Jun 18, 2004, 10:46 PM
Look, that's uncalled for. Contribute, or don't post.


my, uh, hero? ;)

abc123
Jun 18, 2004, 11:47 PM
i'd like to see more windows apps. a way sharing ical calendars with windows users would be wonderful for example.

also, if the people you were waiting for are customers of the itunes music store then they have just as much right to be there are you do.

mkrishnan
Jun 19, 2004, 12:02 AM
i'd like to see more windows apps. a way sharing ical calendars with windows users would be wonderful for example.

My wishlist item right behind world peace is something that would act as a gateway for a fairly diverse set of calendar apps and provide the functionality that Outlook has on an exchange srvr through the web. That would soooo rule. :)

Ninja_Turtle
Jun 19, 2004, 12:38 AM
eh, i can see how this can be annoying...i know exactly what you mean when PC people dont even know what OS means or what OS they are running, truly idiotic...as for apple porting more iApps, i doubt it, but if they did, it would make apple lots and lots of $$$, it would mean that alot more help issues for dumb pc users and less attention to the true mac users, itll be like AOL were AOL for PC is at version 9.0 and mac is still in version 5...ugh...as for iChat AV, itll be great! i could finally talk with my PC buddies, instead of only being able to talk to my Mac buddies...but ionno
w/e apple makes or does...lets just hope its a good one...

SiliconAddict
Jun 19, 2004, 02:03 AM
Blah blah blah blah blah.


Grow up and welcome to the REAL world where without the iPod and the Windows market Apple would be screwed. Do you know where Apple and the iPod would be right now if they didn't provide iTunes? Dead last in online sales of songs. So instead of 70% market they would prob have 30% market but you are OK what that. You are OK if the Music industry looks at that 30% market and looks at that juicy Windows market share and says screw you to Apple for exclusive deals.

Again grow up. This is competition and if Apple didn't bring iTunes to the PC it would have been a forgone conclusion that Microsoft would have, and may still yet, walk all over Apple and the ITMS. Again I will point out to the few Mac users that live in some bubble world that's called Appleland that Mac users comprise somewhere between 3-4% of the overall market and Windows OWNS the market at somewhere in the +91% range.
And please don't give me that old excuse that Apple can survive on a small market share just like BMW or Porsche. Using the automotive industry as an example just doesn't work. BMW and Porsche doesn't depend on 3rd party products to survive. (Imagine what would happen if Adobe dropped ALL support for the Mac and MS dropped Office altogether. Laugh all you want but it would kill the Mac overnight with any serious multimedia house.)

iTunes for windows did one and only one thing: Keep the flow of iPod sales going. MusicMatch was and still is a joke. Nice features, craptastic interface and performance.

Quite honestly iTunes and iTMS for Windows was quite possibly the smartest move Apple has done in its history short of getting to the GUI before anyone else.

That being said I’m certain Apple’s Windows software will stop at iTunes. Maybe iPhoto if they release a color\video out iPod. Beyond that doubtful.

As for the knowledge of Windows users. Heh. Dude I know several Mac users that have NO freaking idea what firewire or USB is. They’ve never used an external device on their laptops EVER. Remember Macs are suppose to be simple. Setup in a matter of minutes. Do you think the average person be it Mac or PC user takes the time to learn the port names on their systems? Heck no. If you don't like standing in line there is an OPTION (http://www.apple.com/retail/procare/)

Zaty
Jun 19, 2004, 03:01 AM
It's was definitely a clever thing to port iTunes to the Windows platform. One day in late 2003, my sister told me she had downloaded iTunes and liked it. Since I was busy back then, I missed the iTunes for Win release, so I was stunned that there was an iTunes for win. I downloaded it myself and played with it on my Toshiba notebook but that computer (1.33 GHz celeron processor) was to weak (it almost overheated) to import CDs into iTunes. I already knew that my laptop was not powerful enough for my needs but that particular experience totaly conviced me to buy a new one. Since I liked iTunes so much, I started thinking about switching and I ended up doing so. As for the question if Apple should port more apps to the Win platform, my answer is no, except for Safari. It would be great if IE got more competion and Safari, which IMO is the best web browser, could also work as bait for Windows user to switch.

virividox
Jun 19, 2004, 05:30 AM
i think apple is doing a good thing porting certain apps over; i mean how else would apple maintian dominance if windows users cant access itunes music store?