WWDC Photos (Monitors), Tiger Screenshots

[MacRumors]

Photos from WWDC have been posted showing off the new Apple LCD Monitors.

The most impressive shots include the photos of a Dual 30" Displays that can be driven by the new GeForce 6800 Ultra.

Meanwhile MacShrine (http://www.macshrine.com/) posted more screenshots from the Developer's Preview of Tiger.

Here's the link to the rest of images: http://www.jonshier.com/gallery/ | mirror (http://home.sport.rr.com/mrmudbug/wwdc04/wwdc04.html)

[stoid]

Can anyone loan me, let's see 2x$3299 + $2999 +$599 +tax, so about $11000?





Please?





Please?

[Grimace]

Impressive - it's just a shame that on top of $3299, you have to pay $599 for the video card to drive it. :(

[rhpenguin]

wow... i need one of those displays... already made room for it on the desk...

[PlaceofDis]

i have my little 12" powerbook here, and i am afraid to see it by one of those 30" displays! i mean im totally comfortable and happy with my screen size, but whoa those displays would make my powebook screen look like a smurf

[denm316]

I would take one but only if its free, I would never pay that price

[Freg3000]

Other news... iSync is gone! Yes, that new Tiger Sync Engine is taking its place.

iSync is gone??? What? :eek:

btw I can't see any of the jonshier stuff.

Edit: Links removed due to traffic? Wow that didn't last long. Anyone swiped the images so we an put up a mirror?

[Trekkie]

IBM has a monitor that costs $8599 and requires a Quadra FX 1000 or better to drive it. So this monitor is cheap by comparison. That's a 22.1" 9MP monitor BTW.

I'm excited about the new card. I'm debating getting it on a Dual 2.5 and using my CRT (20" Sony) until I pay off the 2.5...

We'll see. Still debating, lot of dough. I was hoping against hope for a iMac refresh enough to make it worth upgrading over my 800MHz.

[nsb3000]

Impressive - it's just a shame that on top of $3299, you have to pay $599 for the video card to drive it. :(

Ya, you would think at that price, they would *give* you the video card, or at least build it in to new G5s..

[stukick]

I just sold my Son's kidney on eBay so I could get a 30" display...my precious. ;)

[Stella]

Its been replaced by a syncing engine.. its built into the OS itself.

Anyway, iSync was a farce, claimed to support phones which is really didn't, or (isync) proved to be very unreliable, such as syncing with SE900.

Hope Apple have improved the reliability with the new Sync engine.

Tiger looks better and better though. Hope apple sort out those widgets... they are ugly.. only 12 months at most to wait!


iSync is gone??? What? :eek:

btw I can't see any of the jonshier stuff.

Edit: Links removed due to traffic? Wow that didn't last long. Anyone swiped the images so we an put up a mirror?

[sockeatingdryer]

Ya, you would think at that price, they would *give* you the video card, or at least build it in to new G5s..

Are you kidding? This is Apple!

/Loves Apple

[nsb3000]

I'm surprised that jobs did not mention the new version of iPhoto, powered by Core image, that is discussed here.

[eric_n_dfw]

Can anyone loan me, let's see 2x$3299 + $2999 +$599 +tax, so about $11000?[/SIZE]Sure. But you wouldn't like the interest rate! :p ;) :eek:

[mkaake]

is it just me, or are the pinstripes a little more pronounced - as in, between 10.3 and 10.2 (look at last pic w/quicktime window)

[AmigoMac]

I'm surprised that jobs did not mention the new version of iPhoto, powered by Core image, that is discussed here.

That will be his job at MWSF 05, for iLife 05 we can wait a lot of this video/image effects, that will be the kick-a$$ feature to update... that's why they will ship the first half of 05... I just noted that one of the screenshots from Macshrine shows the normal apple on the top-left corner, not the blue-backgrounded from the WWDC ...

[bkopi]

According to nVidia's specifications the GeForce 6800 GPU can deliver a resolution of up to 2048x1536. The specs are on their web site at http://www.nvidia.com/page/pg_20040406661996.html

I wonder now, how on earth can any video card based on that GPU drive the new 30" display at a resolution of 2560x1600?! And why this display is only supposed to be good for MACs? The GeForce 6800 is available for PCs also!

If anybody has any info on that I would appreciate a response, as I'm trying to find out if there is any kind of scaling going on there (which would mean low graphics quality) or even worst, if this is all marketing crap?!

In principal the GPU should be able to drive (2048x1536)x2, given the two DVI outputs. So another explanation could be that there is a special driver (probably for MAC OS, that's why the 30" display only for MACs) that 'steels' pixels from one DVI and drives them to the other.. producing some kind of (2560x1600) on one DVI and the remaining (1536x1472) on the second? Don't know, just speculating.. And anyway, Apple never claimed that a dual 30" display configuration can be driven at maximum resolution at the same time by a G5 with a GeForce 6800..

Any links to relevant tech discussions are highly appreciated

[yoda13]

i have my little 12" powerbook here, and i am afraid to see it by one of those 30" displays! i mean im totally comfortable and happy with my screen size, but whoa those displays would make my powebook screen look like a smurf

lol, I know what you mean :D

[benpatient]

That IBM monitor you're talking about is the T221, i suppose?

Product link (http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG5&storeId=1)

it's not 8600 dollars, btw, it's retail is only 8400 dollars...

that said, it needs the fancy graphics card because it's native resolution (3840x2400!!!) goes past the theoretical bandwidth of a normal, single DVI channel.

You can, according to some tests, get it to fill the screen at full resolution with one DVI connector, but it will only run at 12hz.

the PHYSICAL resolution of this beast (the IBM T221) is 204dpi.

and when you consider that the 204dpi includes all three color channels as a single pixel (by counting, anyway), then you realize that this is actually higher TRUE resolution than the average color laser printer. You can imagine what that might look like....OS X would, if it could run on this monitor, be too small to click on things...the menu bars would need to be much taller.

[Makosuke]

Those're some nice screenshots to go with the mental image of having a pair of 4MP 30" screens in front of your chair.

Funny--I wonder if I actually had two of those things if I'd really use all that space--I just don't think I need that much visible at once for what I do, and I'd spend so much time looking back and forth that just one would be enough.

I'm trying to scrape together the cash for a 20", though, so that'll be good enough. The 23" would be nice, but $2000 is a lot for a monitor.

And Quicktime apparently takes advantage of core graphics now? Spiffy! That's probably the thing I'm most looking forward to, especially if it means more functional overlaid text tracks.

[bitfactory]

yeah, but how does it RUN in this current build? and on what equipment? does it run most 3rd party apps?

does the finder seem faster? is it cocoa? come on ppl, how about the important stuff?!

[Knox]

iSync is gone??? What? :eek:

btw I can't see any of the jonshier stuff.

Edit: Links removed due to traffic? Wow that didn't last long. Anyone swiped the images so we an put up a mirror?

http://media.tecknohost.com/wwdc04/

Although they're not *that* interesting other than the two arn's already posted.

[nagromme]

Impressive - it's just a shame that on top of $3299, you have to pay $599 for the video card to drive it. :(

There's no way around it--no other GPU can HANDLE that many pixels. And you don't pay 599 when building-to-order, you pay the DIFFERENCE vs. whatever card your machine normally has. (If you already own the machine instead of BTO, then you must buy the card--all you can hope for then is to sell the old one!)

And most importantly, that NVIDIA card does more than just drive (two!) 30" displays. It's an amazing graphics card with a LOT of power. You're GETTING something for your money.

Yes, it's a high-end setup and doesn't cost $250 :)

[adamfilip]

is there any standard in the pipeline that can support a really high res display

like a DVi-X (extreme ) so that you can plug one of these 30" beasties
with just one plug

if not they better make one soon. some thing that can support 10,000 x10000 pixels

[Stella]

Your imagination is running wild... :)

The 30" display will work fine on a PC.


I wonder now, how on earth can any video card based on that GPU drive the new 30" display at a resolution of 2560x1600?! And why this display is only supposed to be good for MACs? The GeForce 6800 is available for PCs also!

[nagromme]

I wonder now, how on earth can any video card based on that GPU drive the new 30" display at a resolution of 2560x1600?! And why this display is only supposed to be good for MACs? The GeForce 6800 is available for PCs also!

If anybody has any info on that I would appreciate a response, as I'm trying to find out if there is any kind of scaling going on there (which would mean low graphics quality) or even worst, if this is all marketing crap?!

It's real pixels, not scaled--and good question!

I think the answer has to be that the PC GeForce 6800 is NOT quite as high-end as this Mac-only "6800 Ultra DDL"--which can handle more pixels and will probably come to PCs too in the end.

[narco]

My God, it's like looking through the eyes of Jesus.

// narco

[iriejedi]

you ONLY have to pay $135 if upgrading from 9800XT!!!!!!

Best deal on planet!


Impressive - it's just a shame that on top of $3299, you have to pay $599 for the video card to drive it. :(

[macridah]

two 30" lcd ... 6598
graphics card ... 599
PowerMac G5 ... 1999 - 2999
8 million pixels and making a mess in your pants ... priceless

[nagromme]

Your imagination is running wild... :)

The 30" display will work fine on a PC.

No, Steve said it's Mac-only. The 20" and 23" are for PC.

The reason is that the required NVIDIA card is Mac-only--BUT I do expect that to change. I expect 30" on PC will become possible.

[afields]

Wow, monitors look amazing in the close up pictures.

[wordmunger]

The best thing about the screenshots (not the ginormous fancy-pants monitors) is that the About This Mac window shows Tiger running on a 900-Mhz G3! Let's hope Tiger maintains G3 support up to its release!

[ITR 81]

According to nVidia's specifications the GeForce 6800 GPU can deliver a resolution of up to 2048x1536. The specs are on their web site at http://www.nvidia.com/page/pg_20040406661996.html

I wonder now, how on earth can any video card based on that GPU drive the new 30" display at a resolution of 2560x1600?! And why this display is only supposed to be good for MACs? The GeForce 6800 is available for PCs also!

If anybody has any info on that I would appreciate a response, as I'm trying to find out if there is any kind of scaling going on there (which would mean low graphics quality) or even worst, if this is all marketing crap?!

In principal the GPU should be able to drive (2048x1536)x2, given the two DVI outputs. So another explanation could be that there is a special driver (probably for MAC OS, that's why the 30" display only for MACs) that 'steels' pixels from one DVI and drives them to the other.. producing some kind of (2560x1600) on one DVI and the remaining (1536x1472) on the second? Don't know, just speculating.. And anyway, Apple never claimed that a dual 30" display configuration can be driven at maximum resolution at the same time by a G5 with a GeForce 6800..

Any links to relevant tech discussions are highly appreciated

According Apple the 30inch displays can be used on Mac..but could mean a PC ver. is just down the road.

I just noticed this:

Apples 6800 is abit longer then the 6800's for the PC. Maybe it's been tweaked.

Apples: GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL graphics card:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/572/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/m9593ga_125.jpg

PC version of the GeForce 6800 Ultra: (why no DDL in the name?)
http://www.nvidia.com/docs/CP/5917/verto-board.jpg

[adamfilip]

The DDL

referes to the Double DVI linking
this is the first board to feature that .. PC or mac
and the 30" needs it

[adamfilip]

can this new 6800 card work in a G5 1.6?

[Stella]

LOL -
I wonder how many of these 30" displays Apple will actually sell.. they have a very limited market at the moment -
- Mac only
- G5 only
- Expensive graphics card ( and only one choice )
- $$$$ to spare

They won't be selling them to the average Mac user, that is for sure!

I could imagine Pixar will buy some since they are migrating to Macs...

No, Steve said it's Mac-only. The 20" and 23" are for PC.

The reason is that the required NVIDIA card is Mac-only--BUT I do expect that to change. I expect 30" on PC will become possible.

[Marble]

Egad, that white on blue looks awful. I feel like I'm looking at Windows XP!

[melgross]

According to nVidia's specifications the GeForce 6800 GPU can deliver a resolution of up to 2048x1536. The specs are on their web site at http://www.nvidia.com/page/pg_20040406661996.html

I wonder now, how on earth can any video card based on that GPU drive the new 30" display at a resolution of 2560x1600?! And why this display is only supposed to be good for MACs? The GeForce 6800 is available for PCs also!

If anybody has any info on that I would appreciate a response, as I'm trying to find out if there is any kind of scaling going on there (which would mean low graphics quality) or even worst, if this is all marketing crap?!

In principal the GPU should be able to drive (2048x1536)x2, given the two DVI outputs. So another explanation could be that there is a special driver (probably for MAC OS, that's why the 30" display only for MACs) that 'steels' pixels from one DVI and drives them to the other.. producing some kind of (2560x1600) on one DVI and the remaining (1536x1472) on the second? Don't know, just speculating.. And anyway, Apple never claimed that a dual 30" display configuration can be driven at maximum resolution at the same time by a G5 with a GeForce 6800..

Any links to relevant tech discussions are highly appreciated

There are several things here that are incorrect. First of all this card is NOT a stock 6800. It is a special card that uses DVI connectors that have two parallel DVI signals in each connector. Thus two 30" monitors per card. The stock card allows for one DVI signal per connector.

The specs that NVIDIA are quoting are the specs for a CRT, not an LCD. Specs of LCD's are very different from the analog output to a crt.

The second point is that Apple has stated that a Pc with a card that has the same functionality can drive this monitor. Steve is finally regarding Pc owners as his customers.

Try this link:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9593G/A

This is from Apple's PDF, it explains a little about the DVI spec:

The DVI standard specifies a single connector that handles two different digital signal bandwidths: single link and dual link. At 165MHz, the single-link bandwidth supports HDTV and UXGA (1600-by-1200-pixel resolution) display formats. The dual-link bandwidth (transmitted over a single cable) uses the same DVI connection, but it supports much higher resolutions, such as the 2560-by-1600-pixel resolution of the 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Display.

In other words, DVI SL supports 1920x1200 at 60Hz or 1600x1200 at 60Hz.

DVI DL has double the bandwidth and supports a combination of rez and refresh that would use that bandwidth. Hence 2560x1600 at 60Hz. The confusion arises from the fact that with an LCD the rez and refresh rate is limited by the DVI bandwidth. If the card can deliver more, it doesn't matter because the DVI limits the output. DVI SL was designed for HDTV 1080p.

It's "G5 only" on the Mac, because those are the only machines that have an 8x AGP port. Some G5's don't have that either, such as the 1.6GHz and the new dual 1.8Hz. If a Pc has an 8x AGP slot, and a dual link card is available, then this monitor will work.

I hope that clears things up.

[aethier]

It's real pixels, not scaled--and good question!

I think the answer has to be that the PC GeForce 6800 is NOT quite as high-end as this Mac-only "6800 Ultra DDL"--which can handle more pixels and will probably come to PCs too in the end.

the real solution (found if you watched the webcast) is that, its not scaled, or borrowing pixels, its done by using one dvi port to draw the top half of the screen, and the second to drive the second half of the screen. totalling a res of quite high. it does not work on PC's but the 20inch and 23inchers do...

aethier

[melgross]

the real solution (found if you watched the webcast) is that, its not scaled, or borrowing pixels, its done by using one dvi port to draw the top half of the screen, and the second to drive the second half of the screen. totalling a res of quite high. it does not work on PC's but the 20inch and 23inchers do...

aethier

You are almost correct. Please read my post above.

[saabmp3]

the real solution (found if you watched the webcast) is that, its not scaled, or borrowing pixels, its done by using one dvi port to draw the top half of the screen, and the second to drive the second half of the screen. totalling a res of quite high. it does not work on PC's but the 20inch and 23inchers do...

aethier

Yeah, melgross got it right. It only has one connector, but it runs at double speed.

BEN

[Sabbath]

Wow that 30"er is impressive it manages to even make the G5 case look small, the keyboard is so out of proportion (in terms of what we are used to) compared to the dual 30" setup.

Additionally that graphics card is massive it looks like its filling up almost the entire PCI segment of the G5 case, we sure won't be seeing the dual graphics card setup of alienware and nvidia without some physical changes to the case. I wonder if the card is so big because it still draws power from the agp pro slot which used to go to the adc connenctor, and hence the voltage has to be lowered.

I'm starting to like the look of these displays more and more, I just hate that head on angle Apple has on its website.

EDIT: just looked again at the pictures of the apple and pc 6800 and apple is definitely drawing power from the agp pro bit. A much neater solution all round, than the dual extra connectors on the PC version if you ask me.

[BornAgainMac]

iSync is gone??? What? :eek:

btw I can't see any of the jonshier stuff.

Edit: Links removed due to traffic? Wow that didn't last long. Anyone swiped the images so we an put up a mirror?

iSync the last of the free programs from Apple. Seems like everything is a paid upgrade. iLife, Safari, iChat, etc...

[discstickers]

is there any standard in the pipeline that can support a really high res display

like a DVi-X (extreme ) so that you can plug one of these 30" beasties
with just one plug

if not they better make one soon. some thing that can support 10,000 x10000 pixels

This card uses a new DVI standard that allows for this...

[Arael]

There are already many Dual-Link cards for PCs that should work for this 30in. Just that they're all > $600, i think.

However, the problem is that this 30in is single-input, and I believe that there is no DL switch on the market (well, maybe someone will make one and charge $1000... )
So at least in the near future, we can't share this $$$$ monitor between a PC and a Mac....

[3G4N]

The DDL

referes to the Double DVI linking
this is the first board to feature that .. PC or mac
and the 30" needs it

nVidia's QuadroFX line has Dual DVI Linking, and should be able to power the 30".

"dual DVI digital connectors drive the highest resolution digital displays available on the market. Dual-link DVI connector drives QUXGA-wide displays via a single connector."
"up to 2048x1536 per display or 3840x2400 for a single digital display"

So I suppose you couldn't get two 30" to work on a Quadro. Possibly.

Now I just need a capable KVM switch so both my mac and pc can use it!

[rastap]

yeah, but how does it RUN in this current build? and on what equipment? does it run most 3rd party apps?

does the finder seem faster? is it cocoa? come on ppl, how about the important stuff?!

Yes, please.
And: Whats with the "Services"-menu? Can I take screenshots from the finder? Anyone tried to run a java-app? Is that faster? How much can you modify the apperarance of the OS?

[nagromme]

iSync the last of the free programs from Apple. Seems like everything is a paid upgrade. iLife, Safari, iChat, etc...

iSync isn't needed: synching functionality is system-wide, available to developers, and built into the OS. Apple isn't taking something away from us.

And I never paid for Safari or iChat, they came free with Panther :)

[melgross]

There are already many Dual-Link cards for PCs that should work for this 30in. Just that they're all > $600, i think.

However, the problem is that this 30in is single-input, and I believe that there is no DL switch on the market (well, maybe someone will make one and charge $1000... )
So at least in the near future, we can't share this $$$$ monitor between a PC and a Mac....

All dual link signals are coming from one connector, not two. The older IBM monitor had to use two cards because there were no dual link cards out at the time. Even if there were, they wouldn't have had the bandwidth to be of use. Only the last generation, and the new one have that kind of bandwidth.

Apple has two dual link connectors, therefore connecting two 30" monitors.

[melgross]

nVidia's QuadroFX line has Dual DVI Linking, and should be able to power the 30".

"dual DVI digital connectors drive the highest resolution digital displays available on the market. Dual-link DVI connector drives QUXGA-wide displays via a single connector."
"up to 2048x1536 per display or 3840x2400 for a single digital display"

So I suppose you couldn't get two 30" to work on a Quadro. Possibly.

Now I just need a capable KVM switch so both my mac and pc can use it!

It's sad, but no KVM will handle that kind of bandwidth. When one comes out that will, it will cost almost as much as the monitor.

[BakedBeans]

the cheek.... i hope im going to get credit for those pictures?????

[azdude]

nVidia's QuadroFX line has Dual DVI Linking, and should be able to power the 30".

"dual DVI digital connectors drive the highest resolution digital displays available on the market. Dual-link DVI connector drives QUXGA-wide displays via a single connector."
"up to 2048x1536 per display or 3840x2400 for a single digital display"

So I suppose you couldn't get two 30" to work on a Quadro. Possibly.

Now I just need a capable KVM switch so both my mac and pc can use it!

Sounds like it'll work.

BTW... I'm pointlessly curious (and, admittedly... lazy). Does anyone know if these Dual-DVI connectors are backward compatible to regular DVI?

i.e. 6800 Ultra DDL driving a 30" and a 23" ??

[pentajigga]

does anyone know how the resolution is scaled to the 30" from the other models...

sorry for the backwards way of asking, but ..


i have a 22" cinema that i use and love.. i bought a 23" and the res at native produced text and icons (etc) that were too small for me so i sold it and switched back to my 22".

how can i discern the way the 30" will be in this regard.?

thanks

[BakedBeans]

for those who havent seen this one

here it is http://www.jonshier.com/gallery/wwdc/P6290013

[benoda]

Does anyone else think the keyboard's style is really out of sync with the tower and monitors? Looks like a toy sitting next to some serious hardware.

[BakedBeans]

Does anyone else think the keyboard's style is really out of sync with the tower and monitors? Looks like a toy sitting next to some serious hardware.

yeah i was thinking that also.... i thought that they could have at least used bluetooth...

[jettredmont]

According to nVidia's specifications the GeForce 6800 GPU can deliver a resolution of up to 2048x1536. The specs are on their web site at http://www.nvidia.com/page/pg_20040406661996.html


First, I'm not sure if the new card has one or two GPUs on it (or potentially even more). That having been said, the 2048x1536 resolution is cited as the max res for the standard GPU simply because that's DVI's max res. nVidia doesn't guarantee or support a higher resolution because none of thei board-making partners can use it ... until now of course.


I wonder now, how on earth can any video card based on that GPU drive the new 30" display at a resolution of 2560x1600?! And why this display is only supposed to be good for MACs? The GeForce 6800 is available for PCs also!


Dual DVI. (Dual dual DVI, in fact). First question's answer: dual DVI removes the 2048x1536 pixel restriction placed on the GPU by the DVI interface. Second question's answer: the dual DVI cards are only announced for the Mac platform.


And anyway, Apple never claimed that a dual 30" display configuration can be driven at maximum resolution at the same time by a G5 with a GeForce 6800..


Um, yes they did. Steve made quite a point about driving 8.2 million pixels off the nVidia card.

[Butler Trumpet]

Does anyone else think the keyboard's style is really out of sync with the tower and monitors? Looks like a toy sitting next to some serious hardware.

Yeah I think apple should come out with aluminum keyboards and mice. That would be awesome to match the color scheme... and of course maybe two buttons and a wheel, but that probably wont ever happen.

[melgross]

does anyone know how the resolution is scaled to the 30" from the other models...

sorry for the backwards way of asking, but ..


i have a 22" cinema that i use and love.. i bought a 23" and the res at native produced text and icons (etc) that were too small for me so i sold it and switched back to my 22".

how can i discern the way the 30" will be in this regard.?

thanks

I won't do the math here, but you can tell by dividing the horiz. number of pixels by the width of the screen to come up with the number of pixels per inch. The new monitors are 100 pixels per inch. I don't remember what the older ones are, but measure it yourself.

Don't forget that you can change both the icon size as well as the default text size for the desktop and windows. Go to View and get your settings for the desktop or windows there. Safari also lets you set a minimum text size.

It's all about learning what you can control.

[mkrishnan]

Is it just me, or is there anyone else who doesn't find the new monitors very artistically impressive? The *screens* look fabulous. But the bodies lack the aesthetic care of the current gen Apple displays. :( Maybe its better in person? From the photos they don't look that much nicer than most silver plastic win-world monitors....

But the screens themselves...now then....

[yosoyjay]

I found this article written about using dual Nvidia video cards at Tom's Hardware Guide which some may find of interest.

http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040628/index.html

[melgross]

First, I'm not sure if the new card has one or two GPUs on it (or potentially even more). That having been said, the 2048x1536 resolution is cited as the max res for the standard GPU simply because that's DVI's max res. nVidia doesn't guarantee or support a higher resolution because none of thei board-making partners can use it ... until now of course.



Dual DVI. (Dual dual DVI, in fact). First question's answer: dual DVI removes the 2048x1536 pixel restriction placed on the GPU by the DVI interface. Second question's answer: the dual DVI cards are only announced for the Mac platform.



Um, yes they did. Steve made quite a point about driving 8.2 million pixels off the nVidia card.

This is really more for jettredmont, but I'm putting it here. You're right about the 8.2M pixels.

DVI does not have a max rez per se. It's a matter of how the bandwidth is used. The higher the rez, the lower the refresh. A bandwidth of 2,000x1500 would give a refresh of about 40Hz. A rez of 2560x1600 would refresh at about 26Hz.

You really should scan the entire thread. Too many guys pop in and don't see the answers that have already been given. I went through this a while ago. Unfortunatly I have to leave this discussion for a while.

[furrina]

I think I'm gonna get one of the old 20" from MacMall. These just look like everything else. I wish the old ones had gone down more in price, though.

[Arael]

All dual link signals are coming from one connector, not two. The older IBM monitor had to use two cards because there were no dual link cards out at the time. Even if there were, they wouldn't have had the bandwidth to be of use. Only the last generation, and the new one have that kind of bandwidth.

Apple has two dual link connectors, therefore connecting two 30" monitors.

Of course, I agree. But I didn't say anything about dual-link using two connectors.
I just wish that the 30in has two dual-link inputs, so that it can be used with a mac and a PC at the same time, without a (not-existing-yet) switch.

[pentajigga]

thanks melgross, but 2 problems are that in my programs (logic, ableton live, etc) i cant shift the sizes of the icons, text....

and right now im on PC (booo, hisss)... so im hoping for a card dat runs this thing (100% verified)...

thanks

[xtekdiver]

Is it just me, or does the white keyboard seem a bit out of place next to one of these monitors and a powerbook?

[Mr. G4]

Impressive - it's just a shame that on top of $3299, you have to pay $599 for the video card to drive it. :(

Or just wait for the next release of PowerMac G5 :)

[nagromme]

i have a 22" cinema that i use and love.. i bought a 23" and the res at native produced text and icons (etc) that were too small for me so i sold it and switched back to my 22".

how can i discern the way the 30" will be in this regard.?

Ask and ye shall receive :) I know what you mean about the large type on the old 22"--I liked that too. Bascially, the 30" will have EVEN smaller type than the 23". They may be "around" 100 DPI each, but in fact they do vary.

I keep an updated list of full DPI/res specs on ALL Apple displays. My premise in this list is that display size in inches is NOT the key factor. It's just a result of the two REAL important factors: DPI and workspace/windowing area. Two eMacs side by side will both have the same screen size in inches, but the one at 1024x768 has less area for windows than the one set to 1280x960. But the 1024x768 has lower DPI, and lower DPI means bigger pixels, and thus bigger more readable text. As someone who uses computers for long hours, that's a plus for my eyes!

Similarly, two LCDs of similar size (22" and 23" say) may have VERY different windowing areas available. That 23" HD display is MUCH larger in terms of number of pixels: the pixels are smaller than the 22". But thus, less readable on one sense, especially when sitting comfortably away from the screen.

Some people want as many pixels crammed in as they can: more room for palettes. That seems to be the trend in displays now. But others want to avoid high DPIs with teeny tiny text/pixels. It depends what you're after... hope this list helps someone!

I've compared the native (= sharp) resolution of all the recent Mac LCDs, plus a few different modes for CRT iMacs and eMacs. The 23" (and possibly 30") Cinema HD display is unique in that has TWO totally sharp "native" resolutions: you can double the DPI so that every dot is actually a group of four. (Those are some BIG pixels. And "best for LCD" font smoothing doesn't work on doubled pixels.)


Here are all Apple display options in the order of lowest DPI (largest type) to highest DPI (tiniest type). To compare pixel areas, I've given each one's size in megapixels (H x V / 1 million). A display with twice the megapixels can fit twice the windows and tools. (DPI is rounded to the nearest pixel. HxV inch sizes are approximate within one-tenth of an inch.) This list does NOT give brightness/contrast info, or viewing angle ranges--so check out displays in person before buying if you can!

I've also given (in parentheses) the actual size of the viewing rectangle, which people often ask about. (All calculated from specs, not measured.) For CRTs, that size means the image--not the whole screen with borders.

23" Cinema HD Display (doubled to 960x600 in 19.6x12.2"):
49 DPI
.58 megapixels

30" (29.7" veiwable) Cinema Display (doubled--if permitted--to 1280x800 in 25.2x15.7"):
51 DPI
1.02 megapixels

eMac 15.5"-viewable CRT (at 640x480 in 12.4x9.3"):
52 DPI
.31 megapixels

G3 iMac CRT 13.8"-viewable (at 640x480 in 11.1x8.3"):
58 DPI
.31 megapixels

eMac 15.5"-viewable CRT (at 800x600 in 12.4x9.3"):
65 DPI
.48 megapixels

Mac Plus or SE 9" CRT (512x384 in 7.1x5.3"):
72 DPI
.2 megapixels

G3 iMac CRT 13.8"-viewable (at 800x600 in 11.1x8.3"):
72 DPI
.48 megapixels

eMac 15.5"-viewable CRT (at 1024x768 in 12.4x9.3"):
83 DPI
.79 megapixels

Original 12.1" iBook (800x600 in 9.6x7.2"):
83 DPI
.48 megapixels

G4 iMac 15" or 15" Studio Display (1024x768 in 12x9"):
85 DPI
.79 megapixels

22" Cinema Display (1600x1024 in 18.6x11.9"):
86 DPI
1.92 megapixels

14" iBook or PowerBook G3 (1024x768 in 11.3x8.4"):
91 DPI
.79 megapixels

Original Titanium PowerBook G4 15.2" (1152x768 in 12.7x8.4"):
91 DPI
.88 megapixels

eMac 15.5"-viewable CRT (at 1152x864 in 12.4x9.3"):
93 DPI
1 megapixel

G3 iMac CRT 13.8"-viewable (at 1024x768 in 11.1x8.3"):
93 DPI
.79 megapixels

17" Studio Display (1280x1024 in 13.3x10.7"):
96 DPI
1.31 megapixels

23" Cinema HD Display (1920x1200 in 19.6x12.2"):
98 DPI
2.3 megapixels

20" Cinema Display (1680x1050 in 17x10.6"):
99 DPI
1.76 megapixels

17" iMac or Aluminum PowerBook (1440x900 in 14.4x9"):
100 DPI
1.3 megapixels

15.2" Aluminum PowerBook or updated Titanium (1280x854 in 12.7x8.4"):
101 DPI
1.09 megapixels

iPod 2" (160x128 in 1.56x1.25"): (MINI ??????)
102 DPI
.02 megapixels

30" (29.7" veiwable) Cinema Display (2560x1600 in 25.2x15.7"):
102 DPI
4.01 megapixels

eMac 15.5"-viewable CRT (at 1280x960 in 12.4x9.3"):
103 DPI
1.23 megapixels

12.1" iBook or Aluminum PowerBook (1024x768 in 9.7x7.3"):
106 DPI
.79 megapixels


Speaking for myself, recent DPIs (above 90) can get hard on my eyes after long use--but with a bright enough screen, I'm fine with my AlBook's 102. Yet I prefer someting larger than .79 megapixels (1024x768) for fitting windows and palettes. I went with an eMac (multiple resolutions) so I don't have to choose, but I did miss LCD sharpness until I got the AlBook.

Also note that LCDs can effectively triple the horizontal resolution for text (at the expense of minor CRT-like color fringing) using subpixel anti-aliasing. To activate that, in System Preferences, choose any smoothing setting other than "best for CRT" and then log out and back in. All your text will be less blocky--notice the V in View, for instance. To turn the effect back off temporarily and compare, switch to Thousands of colors. (Since it only works in Millions.)

By the way, here are formulas for DPI and viewable dimensions that will work even when comparing widescreen vs. normal-ratio displays:

H = horizontal pixels
V = vertical pixels
D = diagonal (viewable) inches

DPI = sq.root( H^2 + V^2 ) / D

Horizontal inches = H / DPI

Vertical inches = V / DPI

Megapixels = H x V / 1,000,000

Now you know... more than you wanted :D

[må¥å]

Is it just me, or does the white keyboard seem a bit out of place next to one of these monitors and a powerbook?

About 5 people have already posted this detail. Shees teh more people say it, is not going to make Apple release a AL keyboard and mouse and a WiFi also solution. Shees

Is it me or doesn't that G5 tower and 30inch Screen look out of place with that plastic keyboard and mouse ;)

[autrefois]

iSync is gone??? What? :eek:

I hope the Tiger Sync Engine works as well as iSync. I guess some people have had problems with sync-ing with phones, but it works perfectly between my PB, PM, and iPod. I was so happy when they released it, it makes things much easier.

And next time anyone is tempted to do some French-bashing, remember that iSync came out of Apple France! :cool:

Or if you do have problems with it, I guess you can blame the French. :D

Hopefully any kinks anyone had will be fixed in Tiger, and it looks like it will be even better, with more things being sync-ed.

[age234]

I don't know about you all, but I like the really shiny menu bar as seen in this picture (http://images.apple.com/macosx/tiger/images/searchtop_20040628.jpg) a lot more than the flat pinstriped one.

[Frixo Cool]

About 5 people have already posted this detail. Shees teh more people say it, is not going to make Apple release a AL keyboard and mouse and a WiFi also solution. Shees

Is it me or doesn't that G5 tower and 30inch Screen look out of place with that plastic keyboard and mouse ;)

Nope, it's not just you! The thing is getting even more confusing after you take a look at QTVR of new system where we can clearly see that the keyboard and the mouse are GREY - to match that G5 alu-look. Maybe the same color as keys on PowerBooks.... I was so happy to see that Apple finally color-matched it with G5.

And then.... on my horror I saw photos from the show with cheap white keyboard and mouse?!?! WTF? I'll fork out 7500$ on a system and then have color miss-matched keyboard and mouse???!??!!?

Please tell me that this is not true...

[melgross]

Very good Nagromme. That's more time than I could have spent on it.

The formula isn't required though. As pixels on computer displays are square, all that is needed is to divide the horiz. or vertical display resolution by it's actual length in inches to come up with the dpi. Or are you thinking of something else?

[melgross]

Very good Nagromme. That's more time than I could have spent on it.

The formula isn't required though. As pixels on computer displays are square, all that is needed is to divide the horiz. or vertical display resolution by it's actual length in inches to come up with the dpi. Or are you thinking of something else?

Sorry this post is duplicated. It said that it couldn't open the server, so I sent it again.

It LIED!

[MikeH]

My word. The 30" screen really is one big mother, isn't it...

[ifjake]

iSync the last of the free programs from Apple. Seems like everything is a paid upgrade. iLife, Safari, iChat, etc...

so come 2005 i can't imagine there wouldn't be upgrades to iLife to take advantage of the new features in Tiger. but would you have to pay for both? that would kinda suck. Apple needs to serve the customers a little bit on this one. give us a break.

[ratspg]

Has anyone tried Tiger yet? anyone have it from WWDC and can post their experiences?

[Mr. G4]

i have my little 12" powerbook here, and i am afraid to see it by one of those 30" displays! i mean im totally comfortable and happy with my screen size, but whoa those displays would make my powebook screen look like a smurf

Here you go...I took the picture for you to see :)

[Steven1621]

Funny--I wonder if I actually had two of those things if I'd really use all that space--I just don't think I need that much visible at once for what I do, and I'd spend so much time looking back and forth that just one would be enough.

who would have a real use for two 30in moniters? graphics/video people i suppose. when those get out to the public i would like to see how people make use of those...

[JGowan]

... those displays would make my 12" powebook screen look like a smurfHonestly, it makes my 23" look kind of smurfy. It is just ridiculous! I can't wait till it graces my desk!

[JGowan]

No, Steve said it's Mac-only. The 20" and 23" are for PC.

The reason is that the required NVIDIA card is Mac-only--BUT I do expect that to change. I expect 30" on PC will become possible.This might be the product Apple uses to get PC users to switch. Maybe these won't come to PC. I'm hoping they won't. Let 'em switch.

[eric_n_dfw]

who would have a real use for two 30in moniters? graphics/video people i suppose. when those get out to the public i would like to see how people make use of those...and programmers

[JGowan]

LOL -
I wonder how many of these 30" displays Apple will actually sell.. they have a very limited market at the moment -
- Mac only
- G5 only
- Expensive graphics card ( and only one choice )
- $$$$ to spare

They won't be selling them to the average Mac user, that is for sure!

I could imagine Pixar will buy some since they are migrating to Macs...Why are you laughing? The original 22" Display cost $4000 right from the beginning and only worked on a "new" MAC. This new one kicks it to hell and back and for less money. Remember, if you're buying a NEW computer, you only pay the difference between the stock card and the required card. I'm sure that these things will be the NEW thing to have and the very people who have bought the 22" and the 23" will be getting 1 or 2 of these things. They will sell.

Hopefully, history will repeat itself and in 9 months, the 30" will drop to $1999 in one day, like its predecessor, the 23"HD.

[eric_n_dfw]

This might be the product Apple uses to get PC users to switch. Maybe these won't come to PC. I'm hoping they won't. Let 'em switch.He said it's Mac only "right now"; but by the time you can actually buy one, I'd bet that card will be available on PC. (The card isn't available 'till August, he said)

[jsulens]

i am planning on buying a 12'' powerbook, and i was wondering if the graphics cards curently inside them will be powerful enough to run the new 23'' monitor easily. in the pictures posted i noticed that they had the 23'' monitors connected to the 15'' powerbooks. i didnt know if they did this for a particular reason. if anyoine has any experience connecting thier 12'' powerbook to the previous generation of displays(23'') let me know how it worked out for you. i would also like to know if adding more memory would help the situation

[WM.]

i am planning on buying a 12'' powerbook, and i was wondering if the graphics cards curently inside them will be powerful enough to run the new 23'' monitor easily.
Yes, it should be fine. You don't have much hope of running the 30", though. :)
in the pictures posted i noticed that they had the 23'' monitors connected to the 15'' powerbooks. i didnt know if they did this for a particular reason. if anyoine has any experience connecting thier 12'' powerbook to the previous generation of displays(23'') let me know how it worked out for you.
I have not tried it personally.
i would also like to know if adding more memory would help the situation
Probably not. The main limitation for display size is VRAM, which is non-upgradable on PowerBooks, but the 12" currently has 64 MB, which should be plenty. Upgrading RAM to at least 512 MB is a good idea, though. It'll improve performance across the system, especially if you have lot of windows and/or apps open--which is the whole reason you'd buy a big display in the first place, right? :)

WM

[jsulens]

WM., thanks. i think that i will probably buy the new 23'' display as well as a new 12'' powerbook. what do u think is a good amoun of ram to have, 512 looks pretty good, but would i see a differnece in 768 or 1.25 gig?

[WM.]

There are several things here that are incorrect. First of all this card is NOT a stock 6800. It is a special card that uses DVI connectors that have two parallel DVI signals in each connector. Thus two 30" monitors per card. The stock card allows for one DVI signal per connector.

The specs that NVIDIA are quoting are the specs for a CRT, not an LCD. Specs of LCD's are very different from the analog output to a crt.

The second point is that Apple has stated that a Pc with a card that has the same functionality can drive this monitor. Steve is finally regarding Pc owners as his customers.

Try this link:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9593G/A

This is from Apple's PDF, it explains a little about the DVI spec:

The DVI standard specifies a single connector that handles two different digital signal bandwidths: single link and dual link. At 165MHz, the single-link bandwidth supports HDTV and UXGA (1600-by-1200-pixel resolution) display formats. The dual-link bandwidth (transmitted over a single cable) uses the same DVI connection, but it supports much higher resolutions, such as the 2560-by-1600-pixel resolution of the 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Display.

In other words, DVI SL supports 1920x1200 at 60Hz or 1600x1200 at 60Hz.

DVI DL has double the bandwidth and supports a combination of rez and refresh that would use that bandwidth. Hence 2560x1600 at 60Hz. The confusion arises from the fact that with an LCD the rez and refresh rate is limited by the DVI bandwidth. If the card can deliver more, it doesn't matter because the DVI limits the output. DVI SL was designed for HDTV 1080p. It's "G5 only" on the Mac, because those are the only machines that have an 8x AGP port.
Good points.
Some G5's don't have that either, such as the 1.6GHz and the new dual 1.8Hz.
You're wrong about this part, though. :) All G5s have 8x AGP.

If a Pc has an 8x AGP slot, and a dual link card is available, then this monitor will work.

I hope that clears things up.
WM

[WM.]

WM., thanks. i think that i will probably buy the new 23'' display as well as a new 12'' powerbook.
Lucky bastard. :D
what do u think is a good amoun of ram to have, 512 looks pretty good, but would i see a differnece in 768 or 1.25 gig?
I'd say 512 is plenty for standard Web/email/Office/iLife/etc. use, and maybe for gaming (which I couldn't speak to--I stick with my Dreamcast :) ). If you're really heavily using iLife or especially stepping up to FCE/FCP or other apps that give the computer more of a workout, then I'd start to look at going to 768--it doesn't cost much more than 512. But 1.25G is just too expensive at this point for me, at least, to consider--which leads me to:

Any time you're thinking about putting more than the stock amount of RAM in a Mac, I highly recommend looking to Crucial (http://www.crucial.com). We've had nothing but good experiences with them, and their prices seem to be pretty good. Aside from some issues (now fixed) with their 1 GB DDR333 SO-DIMMs on PowerBooks for a little while there, I haven't heard about any incompatibilities with new Apple hardware or OS upgrades. But even at Crucial, those 1 GB modules are almost $500. Whereas going for 768 instead of 512 is only an extra $70 or so (from Crucial), 1.25G instead of 768 is an extra $300. Sure, it'll be better than 768, but $300 better? Maybe not.

FWIW
WM

[outZider]

WM., thanks. i think that i will probably buy the new 23'' display as well as a new 12'' powerbook. what do u think is a good amoun of ram to have, 512 looks pretty good, but would i see a differnece in 768 or 1.25 gig?

As an aside, I have a 12" PowerBook, and it connects, dual head, to a 23" display just fine. :)

[nagromme]

Very good Nagromme. That's more time than I could have spent on it.

The formula isn't required though. As pixels on computer displays are square, all that is needed is to divide the horiz. or vertical display resolution by it's actual length in inches to come up with the dpi. Or are you thinking of something else?

Yes, if you KNOW the actual width or height, you can find the DPI even easier. But those specs are seldom officially posted: they only give you the diagonal inches and the pixel res. So the formula I posted lets you find everything else from that starting point.

[nagromme]

There's just something cool about a 12" PB with a 23" display :)

[freeIQtest]

edu prices:
20" - 664 per MP
23" - 782 per MP
30" - 748 per MP

non-edu:
20" - 738 per MP
23" - 869 per MP
30" - 823 per MP

based on screen size calculations done by nargomme, it would seem that the 30 incher is actually a better deal in terms of pixels/money, but the 20 incher is the best value overall..

[The Bartender]

I would take one but only if its free, I would never pay that price

YOU arent supposed to pay for it, YOUR COMPANY is supposed to pay for it.

I think my old man's boss is going to buy four of them.

[illumin8]

Does anyone else think the keyboard's style is really out of sync with the tower and monitors? Looks like a toy sitting next to some serious hardware.
I was just going to say that. My god, can we finally get rid of the chintzy white plastic keyboards already? It shouldn't be that hard to design one with an aluminum enclosure that matches the G5.

[The Bartender]

I was just going to say that. My god, can we finally get rid of the chintzy white plastic keyboards already? It shouldn't be that hard to design one with an aluminum enclosure that matches the G5.

Too much aluminum would totally kill the look of the G5 w/ AL display though... white keyboards work for me.

[Finiksa]

white keyboards work for me.

Me too! no way do I want an aluminium keyboard and mouse.

[The Bartender]

Your imagination is running wild... :)

The 30" display will work fine on a PC.

The GeForce 6800 for the mac and the PC are two different cards.
The PC version has dual DVI ports... not the necessary dual dual DVI ports to run the 30" display.
In addition, the maximum supported resolution is only 2048x1536 at 85Hz.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you'll have to wait just a while longer. :)

[The Bartender]

Of course, I agree. But I didn't say anything about dual-link using two connectors.
I just wish that the 30in has two dual-link inputs, so that it can be used with a mac and a PC at the same time, without a (not-existing-yet) switch.

yeah... but then us mac users will have a random cable just dangling from our monitors since we wont need the secong input.

[Mr. G4]

Too much aluminum would totally kill the look of the G5 w/ AL display though... white keyboards work for me.

I wouldn't think so. Just look at the powerbook how better it looks with the aluminum keyboard as contrast with the Tibook that has a dark keyboard.

Just my 2 cents

[toughboy]

Me too! no way do I want an aluminium keyboard and mouse.

not aluminium but black.. just like pro mouse..