Why Window Users Won't Switch

[nate]

Since I've got a Mac, I've been happy. I've found that the Mac makes my day more productive. Now that I've had my Powerbook for a few months, I can honestly say that I wouldn't want to go back to Windows system.

And when things do go wrong, it’s easy it fix, and it doesn't happen very often. The most resent one was the kernel crashes because my airport card must of came loose. I have a laptop, so that makes sense. Fixing was easy.

Meanwhile, my Windows-using friends constantly complain about the problems they have. It makes my problems seem trivial. I've done a lot of Windows fixing in my time, and occasionally I get asked to help some one with their Windows computer; I virus-scan it, I Adware it, I re-boot it, and I even reinstall it. Win-users have to defrag and use a myriad of tools to tweak up Windows in hopes that it'll work better -- at least until next week. Meanwhile, I haven't had to bother with many tweaks at all, making my three-minute 'repair permissions' hardly a chore. Windows takes up a lot of your time: it's a high maintenance OS. Mac just boogies.

I have a virus scanner, from .mac, and I have yet to run into a virus. I've scanned my computer twice, and still, I found nothing. My Windows friends seem to scan a whole lot, and virus finding is a weekly ritual. I don’t have to suffer the downtime that a virus provides.

So why won't they switch? I've been asking, and these are some of the things I found out:

But everyone else uses Windows

This, by far, is what I hear most often. They will admit, although, "I hate Windows." Most of these people view Windows as a necessary evil, which they must use it in today’s world to get by.

I've told them that Macs are compatible. I can open Word files, MP3s, JPGs, and almost every other file. I can't however, use Windows software.

There is Virtual PC -- I have it, but I never use it now. I got virtual PC because the word is out that you need Windows to work with the rest of the world. Since then, I found this to be untrue. I can see the value of Virtual PC when can only get software for a PC.

For some people, however, they must go with Windows due to work. Windows (Microsoft) has a large market share compared to Apple, and people see that. Some see it as proof that Windows must be better, or that there is no real choice: they must accept Windows as is.


There's no software for Macs

Available software is important, and many Win-users believe that there is little software for available for Apple computers. Why? Because they walk into a computer store and see isles and isles of "PC" software, but not "Mac" software. (The boxes say "PC CDROM"; sorry, but much of the world now thinks PC means Windows, software companies seem to reflect that.)

I tell my friends that there's a lot of software online, but they are skeptic. Not everyone is ready to type in their credit card number and buy products online. There are a few stores that carry Mac-compatible software. Most of those software stores have Macs hidden in a back-corner somewhere, or they don't display them.

Future Shop (Canada) is a supposed carrier of Mac products -- yet the stores will not display the Mac software or Mac Computers. London Drugs does display the computers and software. Compu-smart has a little Mac corner, and the rest of the store is Windows-based computers. We have two small Mac-only stores. The University also sells Macs. No Apple store here.

Windows-based computers get more exposure. People who work on commission, such as Future Shop, won't bother with the Mac stuff because they view it as a non-selling item. As one of their salespeople about an Apple computer and they'll try to convince you that you should get a PC. (I tried asking in two Future Shops, both tried to sell me Win-computers.) They, of course, work on commission and the commission for an Apple computer is very little compared to the commission on some Windows box.

For Apple, getting Apple exposed on the storefront level is a great challenge. More people carry and sell Windows computers, than Apple computers.


It's too expensive

With Windows, you can slap it into any box you want and sell it for a cheap price. It's been my experience, however, that Windows crashes more in cheaper computers than in high-end computers. I also find that high-end computers cost about the same as an Apple computer. But people want to budget and coming across 'el cheapo' sounds like a deal. Usually it's not, but people go for it anyways.


Apples aren't as good as Windows

For some reason a lot of people hold up to this. They often ask the salesperson at Future Shop and they'll say, "Oh sure, Windows is the best -- you should check out our line of computers, it's on sale -- Oh, Apple, yeah it's not very good, you don't want it."

Others look at the Apple and think that it must be hard to use. And the mouse only has one button (oh my!). And, "where's the start menu?"

I figured my Mac out in less than an hour.

I had one guy who tried telling me that Apple was copying windows since Apple just came into the computer world. I laughed at that and told him that it's the other way around and apples were around a lot longer than Windows and Microsoft -- Gates used to work for apple. "No," he'd say in disbelief. But it's true.


Misconceptions abound, and they are carried forward through sellers, friends, and family alike. When I've told people that I have a "Mac" they give me a sour face and say, "Macs suck." When I ask them why, usually they don't know or they rely on what someone else told them: no software, won't work with windows, etc.

I find that home users are more willing to use and accept Windows as is (problems and all). Where as professionals more and more are choosing an Apple Computer. I'm in the creative field, and that field is full of Mac users (very full).

With the amount of Window problems, especially with the recent ones, more and more people are looking for an alternative. But I think what makes people hesitate before making the big jump is fear.

All of the Apple myths are based on fear: Fear of leaving Windows for a better computer-user relationship with Apple. Isn't it about time let go and switch?

--nate :)

[Fukui]

All of the Apple myths are based on fear: Fear of leaving Windows for a better computer-user relationship with Apple. Isn't it about time let go and switch?

--nate :)
This is exactly the reason for there being Apple Stores IMO.
And maybe to another extent, iPods.
Some people are open minded, some not, but once they walk into one
of those stores...

[Krizoitz]

LEGITIMATE REASONS FOR NOT SWITCHING

Gamers: Sorry, if you are a hard core gamer its still more advantageous and economical to stick with windows. Besides if all you use Windows for is to install and open the games, stability isn't too much of a problem

People with lots of money invested in Windows software: I have a friend who does graphics and web design who would LOVE to switch to mac, but its expensive to rebuy all that software for Mac even though, yes its a available.

Niche software: For some there are only apps out there available for windows, admittedly its usually obscure but it does exist. Hopefully this one improves as the Mac market continues to grow.

People who actually are more productive on Windows: I have some friends who have spent time on both platforms and actually do feel more productive and comfortable on windows, its rare but it happens.

NON-LEGITIMATE REASONS TO SWITCH

Its more expensive: Study after study shows that the long term investment can actually be cheaper, heck even when comparing machines with similar specs Macs are competative sometimes even cheaper. Sure you can get dirt-cheap PC's, but they are dirt.

No software: Gimme a break, how many word-proccesors do you need? Other than games you aren't missing out. Not to mention 100 crappy software programs aren't exactly an advantage.

Everyone else uses windows: So what? Files are still compatible. You can e-mail, send photos, chat, share wordproccesor apps, etc. Everyone used to think the world was flat too. Mob mentalities aren't great.

[comictimes]

This is exactly the reason for there being Apple Stores IMO.
And maybe to another extent, iPods.
Some people are open minded, some not, but once they walk into one
of those stores...
I actually hadn't thought of this before, but it's a good point. People will go to an apple store in order to find the apple product which has gotten the most attention, ipods. However, by going into the store, and seeing what apple offers, Windows users are introduced to macs, and some, hopefully, will switch as a result of this...
Also, does anyone have any idea why apple is seen by so many people as a horrible company to be associated with? I mean, while the ipod is the best- known apple product, and its sales are incredibly high, if you look at any set of "user opinions" of it, such as those on cnet, or the comments whenever a place like bensbargains.net posts something on the ipod, at least half of the people will say that it is stupid or gay or whatever, simply because it is an apple product...

[FuzzyBallz]

One word: Cost. As some one mentioned, people can get a game or work PC for as little as $500 or less, depending on whether one's retail or DIY. A Mac on the other hand doesn't come cheap. period.

[Mav451]

Expensive to the general public?

No, if you factor in the general public's overall lower computer competence, then Macs will have lower TCO, and lower daily "time/productivity" opportunity loss.

Expensive to enthusiasts?

Yes, very much so.

An enthusiast can construct a mid-range system, with high-quality, brand-name components for easily < $800. You want to see my $500 bill for my setup + $86 for 512MB RAM, purchased last year, you can PM me for it. Actually, better yet, I'll post a screenshot of it as I've already posted it a few times on this forum, and some people STILL refuse to believe its possible.

*Yeah, I didn't buy a new video card--I just reused the ATi 8500 I had in my old box*

This is something I wish Apple would do, but doesn't--barebones? Maybe I'm dreaming, but the point is that alot of people have components (hard drives, SuperDrive, video cards, etc.) that they'd love to recycle into their new system...but even with BTO, this problem can't really be alleviated. These components can cost up to two, or three hundred dollars EASILY.

(E.g. video card = 100, Super drive = 150, 80gig HD = 50).

If there was a headless iMac G5, with a BTO "barebone" option, those three hundred dollars saved would be huge in the iMac's $1200-2000 range, but ESPECIALLY at the lower end. Imagine being able to take $300 off a $1500 iMac, for example, because you already have a SuperDrive/ATi 9600. And of course, b/c I made this situation up we'll say the educational discount still applies...voila! A mid-range iMac G5, for $1080ish, b/c you didn't need to purchase the off-the-shelf model...haha I wish

The lost time/productivity argument pretty much goes out the window when Firefox is used, BV's services tweak is applied, and Spybot S&D is installed.

(1) Firefox is used--this has no bearing on productivity, in fact, it actually increased my productivity with NO pop-up ads, versatile extensions that block annoying Flash/"Click Me" ads on-page, tabs, etc.

(2) BV's service tweak is a one time thing. Click it and its done.
It is not a "daily maintenance" thing. This tweak is done once, and only once (at installation, now, tomorrow, tonight, basically anytime). And, while reducing bloat, it increases stability b/c a lot of those bloated services are actually causing the instability in the first place.

(3) Spybot S&D:
It serves 2 purposes for me:

a) If I am, forced to use IE for some unforgiving site, then Spybot has already blocked Active X and malicious dialer download vulnerabilities. Again, one-click is all it takes.

b) If, and it is a big if, some form of adware/spyware slips through Firefox, then Spybot will remove it for me. I have run Spybot a whole 3 times in the past 8 months. It only found spyware when I had to use IE for a e-card...it was my big mistake -_-. Other than that unfortunate intrustion, Firefox makes spyware a thing of the past...isn't it ironic how the Firefox switching campagin mirrors alot of the word choice and tone of an Apple switch campaign?

("more productive", "no spyware", "less expensive to maintain", etc.)

[Jalexster]

I know a person (who I talk too over MSN Messenger) who once I told him that I have a Mac, sadi that they sucked. Just plain sucked.
I asked him why.

He said the usual things; no software, not compatible, etc...
But he also said some of the stupidest things i've ever heard like:

Windows is more stable than Mac OS X
ALL Mac hardware is propriatary
No Games at all for Mac
Mac OS X sucks becauase it is based on Unix
He says only Linux is good
Linux more stable than Unix, and is a better server.
Mac OS X dosen't support SSH, FTP, etc...
He claims that Mac OS X dosen't support Apache

I'd like to know where he pulled these things from. He claims to know alot about computers. On a similar note, he has a website which he hosts himself, and is running a crappy router, that dosen't block all ports (only port 80 should be open), and he claims he dosen't need a software firewall. He also claims that ZoneAlarm sucks.

I have no idea what is wrong with him. Oh wait, yes I do: He is an anti-Mac fanboy.

I really wish people would learn...

[Timelessblur]

You know I figure I might like to point out some windows uses have very valid reasons for not switching over to a mac. Me being one of them. I do plan on buying my self a Apple lap top in a few years because I will not have those issues on the laptop(basicly right before my last year of collage got to take advatage of the student discount).I see laptops as sendondy computers and I am talking from experices here on trying to make a laptop my primery computer and it just sorely lacks compared to a desktop in power. I see laptops as moble computers.


Either way my primery machein will more than likely always be a windows based computer.
Reasons
1. I like to play computer games. I am not a big gamers but there are a lot of computer games I like to play. Most of these games are not adviable for Macs end of story.
2. Lack of software and for me it is a legimet reason. I am currently in school working on becoming a civil engineer I currently use Autocad quite a bit and on the mac well it sucks (I have used it so I do know). It lags behind the windows verson of it by 4-5+ years. It does not have as many add on packages for it. Mac is short on drafting software. My degree is in a field that uses auto. I do some light programing and there are issues programing on macs that come up from time to time in compailing where it will run on the mac but you can not get it to run on a PC where it will be graded. I uses a program call mathCad Very very heavy and there is no verson of it advible for macs. Also there is a lot of downloaded programs that you can only really find for PCs but not a big deal.

3. The oh no spyware and virsue I dont deal with I tend to really keep my computer up to date really well and automaticed most of it for me. I run a firewall (and any one who does not needs to it not a good idea not to run one if you have hispeed). Spyware well general adaware keeps me pretty clean and then again there my firewall. Also I dont use IE I use Firefox now and it a great brower

4. Yeah the PC was a cheaper to build and what not. I got all my software legitly. from nouthing to fullbuild monitor speakers and all 2100. about 550 of that was for my monitor. There is no mac computer short of a the G5 tower macs that take my computer. yeah the Daul G5 will be a lot faster than mine but it also cost 600 more with monitor and I have a lot more ram and better video card that it. Upgrade those you get the idea. the g5 Imac that are coming out my beable to match my computer for speed but it going to cost them more than I paid.

5. You can not build a mac from the noughting and I really enjoyed building my first PC. AMD 64 is my CPU so I do have a 64 bit and by the in the next few months SP2 comes out and it will start using some of that power. (WOOHOO)



Are macs good yes. Would a lot of windows uses gain advatage on them yes. But there are people like me who have very good reason for not switching. I though about it when I build my computer a week ago but for the reason above I choose not 2.

[MyLeftNut]

Since totally switching I've noticed a few things...

I get strange looks from my friends when they ask me about what computer I use. Almost like, "I don't know you anymore" or "Am I talking to a criminal or something?". I dont even bother with arguments, but the looks I get annoy me.

It's definitely a misunderstanding on their part, but I also think that when PC users get together there are a lot of relationships that are created by people sharing problems. Its almost like a status thing with PC users, sort of like; "Well, I got this new video card and it's giving me so much trouble but I sorted it out by downloading and installing such and such, blah, blah, blah...", a game of one-upmanship.

The response might be, "Yeah I know what you mean, I had similar trouble with drivers etc, but I managed to fix it after 2 hours of stuffing around".

Its almost like having problems and fixing them is a badge of honour or something. That frustrates me. Not because I dont have problems with my Mac (just not that many) but other PC users dont know how to relate to me and I'm standing there thinking, 'These people are not PC geeks, they should get away from all this', to which they'll ask me about similar problems on the Mac. I can only say I havent had any relating to drivers/viruses/hardware conflicts etc and the looks are of absolute disbelief. End of conversation.

Sounds like I'm a snob right? Not really. I think with Apple's mindshare there is a bit of jealousy or envy when others realise you've spent what appears to be a lot of money on a computer. Apple is probably a bit to blame for that one, but its the same in nearly every product category where a manufacturer is more discerning in terms of design or manufacture. Its not as if you can't spend the same amount of money on a PC, just that, as the saying goes, results may vary.

I have learned to put together a couple of PCs by purchasing all the components and learning to do setups etc and that has been a steep learning curve. But what a ********* waste of time. Saved some money but time is more important, I can't buy back the time I lost!!

Do I think Macs should rule market share. Its not necessary, but I think with a multiplicity of OSes openly working with each other it could help people out of their narrow mindsets. Its the mindset that has everyone stuck, (I used to be one of them), don't worry it takes time to come out of it and I wasn't convinced for a while but after I matched my expectations with reality I could deal with the changeover.

I too have worked with XP and installed Spybot etc but Im constantly irritated by reports of security breaches et al. XP is fine but it lacks finesse and most people are happy with that. If Longhorn becomes a quagmire of issues as some people believe don't worry there will be switchers a plenty.

[7on]

lol, they only problem I couldn't solve with my Mac was the recent Sherlock fiasco (if you know my from the IRC channel you'd have an idea). Turned out I could fix it. Apple was having server problems.

People don't use Macs because Apple has basically no advertising. They had good sales when advertising was the best in the biz, but now Dell has the majority of all computer sales -- yet they are the crappiest manufacturers. This is because there is at least one Dell commercial on at anytime of the day. I exceptionally like the term paper one, because someone could have lost his term paper on a Dell too -- both computers used Windows. It just struck me as odd that a hardware seller was boosting superior OS... when it used the same OS 97% that other manufacturers used. Oh well, more advertising can never be a bad thing. Jeff Goldbum is though.

[hulugu]

Expensive to enthusiasts?

Yes, very much so.

An enthusiast can construct a mid-range system, with high-quality, brand-name components for easily < $800....*Yeah, I didn't buy a new video card--I just reused the ATi 8500 I had in my old box*
[/QUOTE]

Enthusiasts and hardcore PC gamers would be better off on a Wintel box, but the trouble with using the above quote is first you have to add in the cost of a video card, reusing the parts from other machines isn't fair to the cost of a new Mac which does have a new video card. But, that's just nitpicking.
For the enthusiast who knows what he or she is doing building a computer can be great fun and a very cheap way to get a really impressively spec'd computer, however I have seen many a kludge job with homebuilt PCs. There are numerous machines I've dealt with that were 'built by my nephew' that were totally buggy with mismatched parts and drivers. So, again I think the TCO can come to bear negatively against homebuilt machines.
Lastly, the maintenance for PCs is ridiculous, even a well-maintained machine running Firefox, Spybot, Adaware, etc. will still begin to have problems, I managed to gnarl the registry on mine just by adding and removing two programs I needed for temporary use. I spent a good hour reformatting everything and then replacing the files that had been erased so my settings were back in order.
It's amazing how much time you can waste just coddling a PC through the day.
The hardware isn't the problem really, its the software really.

Lastly, Windows users ..."don't buy Macs because [they] don't know anyone who can fix them!" Actual quote from a guy who insists that PCs are better than Macs.
Windows is like a crack habit, there are enablers (sysadmins at home and at work), dealers (Dell, HP, Alienware) and cartels (Microsoft), including the addiction and the psychological reflex to keep on doing the same thing because it's comfortable. ;)
People use Windows because they're afraid of change, they're afraid of being different, they're afraid to learn a new concept (news flash, if you could learn how to use Windows, you must certainly retain the faculties to learn OSX; it doesn't come stamped into your brain just yet), they're afraid they'll spend too much, and they're afraid because of all the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt that is passed around about Apple. (beleaguered anyone?)

[hulugu]

Do I think Macs should rule market share. Its not necessary, but I think with a multiplicity of OSes openly working with each other it could help people out of their narrow mindsets.

Exactly, there are some standards that can be used to make this happen: Mp3, JPEG, email, Java, PDF, RTF, HTML, etc. And if there was a fairly even spread of OSes out there a new product would be *required* to work with other systems. Then you could have the best tool for the job.

I'd be happy with 20% OSX, 55% Windows (let them keep their largesse, it will be the first target for Russian crackers), 20% Linux, and the remaining to various remaining *NIX products.
Hell I'd be happy if OSX was 10%.

[Mav451]

Expensive to enthusiasts?

Yes, very much so.

An enthusiast can construct a mid-range system, with high-quality, brand-name components for easily < $800....*Yeah, I didn't buy a new video card--I just reused the ATi 8500 I had in my old box*


Enthusiasts and hardcore PC gamers would be better off on a Wintel box, but the trouble with using the above quote is first you have to add in the cost of a video card, reusing the parts from other machines isn't fair to the cost of a new Mac which does have a new video card. But, that's just nitpicking.
For the enthusiast who knows what he or she is doing building a computer can be great fun and a very cheap way to get a really impressively spec'd computer, however I have seen many a kludge job with homebuilt PCs. There are numerous machines I've dealt with that were 'built by my nephew' that were totally buggy with mismatched parts and drivers. So, again I think the TCO can come to bear negatively against homebuilt machines.
Lastly, the maintenance for PCs is ridiculous, even a well-maintained machine running Firefox, Spybot, Adaware, etc. will still begin to have problems, I managed to gnarl the registry on mine just by adding and removing two programs I needed for temporary use. I spent a good hour reformatting everything and then replacing the files that had been erased so my settings were back in order.
It's amazing how much time you can waste just coddling a PC through the day.
The hardware isn't the problem really, its the software really.

Lastly, Windows users ..."don't buy Macs because [they] don't know anyone who can fix them!" Actual quote from a guy who insists that PCs are better than Macs.
Windows is like a crack habit, there are enablers (sysadmins at home and at work), dealers (Dell, HP, Alienware) and cartels (Microsoft), including the addiction and the psychological reflex to keep on doing the same thing because it's comfortable. ;)
People use Windows because they're afraid of change, they're afraid of being different, they're afraid to learn a new concept (news flash, if you could learn how to use Windows, you must certainly retain the faculties to learn OSX; it doesn't come stamped into your brain just yet), they're afraid they'll spend too much, and they're afraid because of all the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt that is passed around about Apple. (beleaguered anyone?)

Well, its your word against mine. Anecdotal vs. anecdotal -_-

Since nearly all the people I know who have built computers, completely illiterate to comp sci majors, were all done well--because they did the research BEFOREHAND. What might also be an issue is that they are all college students, so again, this may have a bearing on the quality of "home-built". I, too, did not build until I was in my sophmore year (2003). There's no way in hell I would trust a middle schooler to build my PC, a high schooler, MAYBE, just maybe if he was experienced enough.

On registry getting blown by programs? That the program's fault, not necessarily the OS itself. I've installed tons of games and the odd number of programs on my computer, legit AND unlegit. Nowhere in these installation/uninstallations did I run into any registry problem. The supposed "slowdown" hasn't been experienced by myself at all--I'm going 16 months strong, just like its new. I do, however, use JV16 PowerTools to clear out old entries, ocassionally. Maybe every 2-3 months, heck, more like every start of the semester...which is like only twice a year.

I do know one guy who had to reformat, unrelated to registry problem from install/uninstall. He ran one of those "turn your PC into a Mac" programs...and apparently the program didn't back up the original XP icon/images. And for that reason, he reformatted, only b/c he hated the fake Mac look.

I, of course, was also slightly considering that option--however I got my iBook a few weeks later (and of course I heard of his experience), so that was avoided :)

[mfogel2002]

i have been buying in to the "everyone has windows" and "there is more out there for the pc" excuses for several years ..... then i finally liberated my self from the evil world that is windows a few days ago. i was a little worried at first but my mac powerbook is so easy to use. it is a little hard to find things but i am catching on quick.

[m.r.m.]

to start of let me say, i own a windows desktop pc (amd athlon64 3000+, ati 9600xt) and a 12" powerbook. of the 2 i much prefer my powerbook because of it's superior os. i'd much rather only have macs (i dream of a powermac with the new 20" display). however, i am a hardcore gamer; actually, i only play one game. i'm a fairly decent and successful counterstrike player. this game (mind you it's the most popular game on the internet worldwide) hasn't been ported to the mac. imo apple should sit down with the folks at valve and other gaming studios and work out something that all big future releases should be ported to the mac. teenage boys spend a immense amount of money on pc's. it's never the cost of a powermac+display, but they buy a new computer close to once in 1,5-2 years. catering to this group will get you a huge chunk of the market. not just for now, but future customers as well. imho apple is too locked up on their business clients. not everyone is in photo and graphics. macs have been heralded for years to be better for such tasks (like photoshop etc. etc.), i think getting into the gaming market is just a logical step. why give up customers without offering a choice? for all you out there who say that there are plenty of games available for macs, not a single progamer i've ever heard of plays on a mac. these are the players countless teenagers look up to. pro counterstrike players often make between $1500-3000 a month. warcraft 3 players in korea f.e. get appartments additionally. you wouldn't believe the amount of teens buying intel, amd, ati, nvidia windows computers, because their favourite players use such machines.

[ddtlm]

Here's a reason everyone has missed: because they don't care. A lot of people do not want to spend any time thinking about it, and PCs familiar, cheap, and everywhere. I know a lot of those people.

Anyway, on the cost side, at the house where me and some friends live we've got 4 pretty good gaming PCs, 3 large Linux software raids, and a few other misc Linux and Windows machines playing firewall, desktop and music machines. (And my Mac, a dual G4 800.) So how would that work in Mac-land?

First lets get those raid boxen out of the way. They have no equivelent in Mac-land. I take a cheap case and saw holes in it wherever it seems right, put fans all over, pack it with disks, old hardware that was in gaming machines, throw on Linux and boom there's your 1TB dirt cheap reliable raid. We can do this for pretty much the cost of disks, 7 to 9 per machine.

Those gaming machines in Apple land would each be a G5. We upgrade the gaming machines just whenever it seems appropriate, and spend just exactly what we want to spend to fix the slow spots. Doom 3 will probably see 2 or 3 of the 4 getting significant upgrades. Lots of video card boosts and possibly a couple of them will go to A64's from ~2ghz Athlons. The equivilent of that would be really painful in Apple land, we'd be looking at a new G5 or two.

3 of our 4 gaming machines are in cases that are 6+ years old, 2 of the 4 with original CD drives, 1 of the 4 with an original power supply (got quiet ones). They have outlived monitors, outlived residences. Those cases have seen K6's, Celerons, Durons, and Athlons, they've been PC66, PC100, PC133, DDR266, DDR 333, DDR 400 RAM, they've seen voodoo2's, Rivas, G200s, G400s, GF 4200's, Radeons, R-9700's, they've gone from plain CD-ROMs to DVD writers.

How many brand-new Macs would I have had to purchase over the years to achieve that feat? Where would those beige G3's be today? A typical motherboard/processor combo stays in a gaming machine for 1.5 years max I figure, and since Macs can't upgrade the motherboard I'm thinking that we'd be looking a 4 generations of shiny-new high-end PMacs to keep up with our ever-morphing PCs. 4 generations of 4 machines per generation: easily $45k of Macs. But, you say, since for a long time Macs did not significantly advance then we wouldn't need to upgrade the machines! Heh heh. :D Yeah true, I'm being generous even assuming that Macs could have kept up during those years.

Anyway, nice to see that G5's and OSX are here but we'll be meeting them with A64's, windows patches, firewalls and happy wallets. Definately no reason to switch. It really is not that hard to keep a Windows machine running smoothly.

[Xenious]

Finally the new monitors came out and I've switched. (It counts if its still on order doesn't it? eheh)

What I will miss from the Windows world:
New games (god bless blizzard)
Microsoft Money (Can't stand Quicken)
Microsoft Streets and Trips (I do not like Route 66 at all)
Microsoft Media Center (no good TV hardware exists for mac with digital cable box control)

How do I plan on fixing them? That's easy, dual monitors with a KVM switch. I get the best of both worlds. My windows box is still around for playing new games and watching TV. I can update my video card if needed and my 2 year old 2.5GHz chip is still usable.

My Mac is my true joy for doing my day to day work. If a game comes out for both platforms I'm set. If not I just get the Windows version and lump it.

To the person that mentioned a high cost of switching: Give your software companies a call (if they make the same products for mac) and ask about cross-platform upgrades. I got adobe to give me a cross platform upgrade for $5 shipping (your current copy has to be the same version).
-jim

[Mav451]

Here's a reason everyone has missed: because they don't care. A lot of people do not want to spend any time thinking about it, and PCs familiar, cheap, and everywhere. I know a lot of those people.

Anyway, on the cost side, at the house where me and some friends live we've got 4 pretty good gaming PCs, 3 large Linux software raids, and a few other misc Linux and Windows machines playing firewall, desktop and music machines. (And my Mac, a dual G4 800.) So how would that work in Mac-land?

First lets get those raid boxen out of the way. They have no equivelent in Mac-land. I take a cheap case and saw holes in it wherever it seems right, put fans all over, pack it with disks, old hardware that was in gaming machines, throw on Linux and boom there's your 1TB dirt cheap reliable raid. We can do this for pretty much the cost of disks, 7 to 9 per machine.

Those gaming machines in Apple land would each be a G5. We upgrade the gaming machines just whenever it seems appropriate, and spend just exactly what we want to spend to fix the slow spots. Doom 3 will probably see 2 or 3 of the 4 getting significant upgrades. Lots of video card boosts and possibly a couple of them will go to A64's from ~2ghz Athlons. The equivilent of that would be really painful in Apple land, we'd be looking at a new G5 or two.

3 of our 4 gaming machines are in cases that are 6+ years old, 2 of the 4 with original CD drives, 1 of the 4 with an original power supply (got quiet ones). They have outlived monitors, outlived residences. Those cases have seen K6's, Celerons, Durons, and Athlons, they've been PC66, PC100, PC133, DDR266, DDR 333, DDR 400 RAM, they've seen voodoo2's, Rivas, G200s, G400s, GF 4200's, Radeons, R-9700's, they've gone from plain CD-ROMs to DVD writers.

How many brand-new Macs would I have had to purchase over the years to achieve that feat? Where would those beige G3's be today? A typical motherboard/processor combo stays in a gaming machine for 1.5 years max I figure, and since Macs can't upgrade the motherboard I'm thinking that we'd be looking a 4 generations of shiny-new high-end PMacs to keep up with our ever-morphing PCs. 4 generations of 4 machines per generation: easily $45k of Macs. But, you say, since for a long time Macs did not significantly advance then we wouldn't need to upgrade the machines! Heh heh. :D Yeah true, I'm being generous even assuming that Macs could have kept up during those years.

Anyway, nice to see that G5's and OSX are here but we'll be meeting them with A64's, windows patches, firewalls and happy wallets. Definately no reason to switch. It really is not that hard to keep a Windows machine running smoothly.

Yes, indeed...the case I had my '99 Athlon Tbird had originally housed a P1 233 with the unstable Intel BX chipset. That beige case saw Windows 95 in 1997, 98 in 1998 and 98SE in '99 while switching to a spanking new Athlon Tbird. And then finally a Athlon Palomino in the Fall of '02 (both are Socket A, mobo switch/upgrade was NOT necessary as it was a seamless upgrade) before finally dying out on me...it was running on a Enlight 250W after all :) That's 5 years worth of computing, switching out, and well, stress for the years I used the god awful Intel chipset (thank god I got rid of that). I'm not saying the Via KT133 was much better, but perhaps the combination of 98SE and a tested AMD board proved to be less of a headache than Intel's -_-.

[Mav451]

Expensive to enthusiasts?
Yes, very much so.

An enthusiast can construct a mid-range system, with high-quality, brand-name components for easily < $800....*Yeah, I didn't buy a new video card--I just reused the ATi 8500 I had in my old box*


Enthusiasts and hardcore PC gamers would be better off on a Wintel box, but the trouble with using the above quote is first you have to add in the cost of a video card, reusing the parts from other machines isn't fair to the cost of a new Mac which does have a new video card. But, that's just nitpicking.
For the enthusiast who knows what he or she is doing building a computer can be great fun and a very cheap way to get a really impressively spec'd computer....

After rereading your post, I do have to be nitpicky :)

The strength of the PC is exactly that. You can't bring an older video card to a new Mac to save costs--it isn't fair, but its the truth of the situation. You just can't, and that is one of the main strengths of the PC. I could use an old card or a new card in a new PC. Regardless, it is not locked into any one configuration and it can go into a new configuration just as easily.

This is why, again, I emphasize that Apple devise a barebone option. You get the Apple-quality engineered (1) Case + fans (2) Processor (3) Motherboard. The rest (hard drive, Superdrive, video card) can, and SHOULD be recycled from current configurations.

To answer your question, though yes, that makes your old Macs useless (unless you sell those Macs as barebones as well :) ). But the fact is, would you rather have 2 Macs, one slow and one new, but spending a whole lot more money? Or just ONE new Mac, at a reduced cost?

I'm sure alot of people would love the New Mac, for a reduced cost.

[DJY]

I'm a very recent switcher.... and there are a couple of things I think "we Mac" users (notice how quickly my allegance has changed!) need to also throw into the equation...

Most humans are like sheep... pack mentality... group opinion... peer influence... all these things are strong.... basic psychology means a group of people can very easily influence one person.

Linked to this point is that Mac's are a set above... they aren't for everyone... they are more discerning... like people often buy the cheaper car that isn't as reliable, and doesn't contain as many features, and even when you point out these things - there will always be a arange of reasons why people will still buy a cheaper less reliable car.

Another factor that I believe is relevant (and I hope I'm 'not breaking the rules by writing this), is Windoze users believe not only that they have all the software... but it is the illegal software, the crackz, the ability to through several mates, a holiday, or just about anywhere on the net, obtain illegal / free / pirated software - so they don't have to pay full price...

Think about it... I know I did (think about it), and the majority of people I know have software bought from South East Asia for a couple of bucks, or brought home a company version, or borrowed it from a mate, or have a dodgy version of one piece of software, or haven't actually paid and have the full rights to have all the software on their machines.

Thats my quick two cents worth anyway.
I for one as a new switcher am very happy, and now can't believe I didn't listen to my mates years ago! Grat new Powerbook, great OS, everything is good, and already I'm a very proud Mac user... and happy to tell people about it (even when they dothen look at me strangely and ask WHY!??!?!)

[aus_dave]

People with lots of money invested in Windows software: I have a friend who does graphics and web design who would LOVE to switch to mac, but its expensive to rebuy all that software for Mac even though, yes its a available.I'm not sure if this is true, but it has been mentioned here before that it is possible to contact the company and surrender your Windows software license in return for the Mac version (which makes sense to me, but then I'm not Adobe :)).

[ddtlm]

Mav451:

This is why, again, I emphasize that Apple devise a barebone option. You get the Apple-quality engineered (1) Case + fans (2) Processor (3) Motherboard. The rest (hard drive, Superdrive, video card) can, and SHOULD be recycled from current configurations.
How about nothing more than a "reasonably" priced ATX G5 mobo that will install OSX? I'd go for that.

[5300cs]

...On registry getting blown by programs? That the program's fault, not necessarily the OS itself...

If windows was a robustly designed & coded OS, then we wouldn't have to worry about the registry getting screwed up. But it's not, so therefore we have to. Actually, I shouldn't say "we" because I don't use windows.

I'm a member of a computer club in my city, and I'm one of 2-3 people who use Macs, the rest are windows users. Most meeting topics are interesting, but when it comes time to troubleshoot, it's a nightmare and a neverending one at that.

Case in point: at the last meeting the presenters did a demo on sharing files. So they set about trying to share files between a desktop pc w/win2k and a notebook w/xp. It was really quite funny watching them trying to get it to work: "ok, so just click here and.. uh.. ok hold on. Hmmm, it's not showing up, uhhh ... .ok waitasecond...uhh." Then they rebooted the notebook, then the desktop. Then the notebook again. How many times I cannot remember; I wasn't paying attention after the first 10 minutes. Finally, after 25 minutes of moving the machines around, sweating and much profanity, they got it to work. "See? There we go!"

They also wanted to see a Mac demo, so I got Panther & Jaguar to see each other (over wireless mind you, try that with XP & win2k) in under 2 minutes. It was over before it even started.

I've never really understood people who brag about how they built a super athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc for under $300. I'm real proud of you and would pat you on the head if you were here. The thing is though, Macs have never been designed for people who like to tinker with hardware (not since the AppleIIs I think) so the point of those comparisons would be ...? I also wouldn't hold my breath for a bare-bones system if I were you, 'cause I don't see it ever happening.

[topicolo]

Here's my two cents:

To the typical ignorant windows user, buying a macintosh seems risky and dangerous. For example, would you invest 3-4 thousand dollars in a computer made by only one company which (to their estimation) could go bankrupt eventually, or buy a windows box and never worry about losing software and technical support since so many more companies and people use windows?

They don't know enough about Apple to make sound decisions and they are unlikely to want find more info on the subject, despite what they're missing out on. Truthfully speaking, there IS more hardware and software support on the windows side (the biggest one for me is 5.1 Dolby Digital sound support built into many new computers nowadays).

On the other hand, the mac is plagued with far fewer adware/spyware and viruses/worms. After finding keyloggers and tons of adware and spyware installed on my computer, I'm getting sick of using ANY windows machine. For this reason alone, I'm getting a powerbook as my next computer.

[johnbro23]

For me, I would have never switched if it wasn't for my iPod. I spent a lot of time on the Apple website, and I finally started checking out the other products (i.e. iMacs and PMs). Then I finally found out about this site, and after talking with some of the MR community, I took the plunge and got an eMac. I couldn't be happier. After a month of having my mac, I havent had one major problem.

I'm actually typing this on a Windows machine. I'm on vacation and I'm on my dad's laptop. I thought I'd put in a CD to listen to... so it asks me what I want to do (open it with WMP, RealPlayer, ect.). So I try WMP. Error. Real Player. Error. Some other odd program it tells me to use. Error. lol. Now that I'm a switcher, I'm like, typical windows. So, I go into "My Computer" (which I have to look for that; it isn't on the desktop like I remember it). I go into the CD drive and double click on the individual track. No go. So I go into programs and try to open up all the programs previously menioned to see if they would work. Finally I get RealPlayer to work. I can't just click on the CD like in iTunes. No... I have to go file>open and open the track I want. It wont even play the CD all the way through. If I want it to play the next song, I have to open it up. I'm so glad I switched. I'm not looking back.

[Mav451]

If windows was a robustly designed & coded OS, then we wouldn't have to worry about the registry getting screwed up. But it's not, so therefore we have to. Actually, I shouldn't say "we" because I don't use windows.

I'm a member of a computer club in my city, and I'm one of 2-3 people who use Macs, the rest are windows users. Most meeting topics are interesting, but when it comes time to troubleshoot, it's a nightmare and a neverending one at that.

Case in point: at the last meeting the presenters did a demo on sharing files. So they set about trying to share files between a desktop pc w/win2k and a notebook w/xp. It was really quite funny watching them trying to get it to work: "ok, so just click here and.. uh.. ok hold on. Hmmm, it's not showing up, uhhh ... .ok waitasecond...uhh." Then they rebooted the notebook, then the desktop. Then the notebook again. How many times I cannot remember; I wasn't paying attention after the first 10 minutes. Finally, after 25 minutes of moving the machines around, sweating and much profanity, they got it to work. "See? There we go!"

They also wanted to see a Mac demo, so I got Panther & Jaguar to see each other (over wireless mind you, try that with XP & win2k) in under 2 minutes. It was over before it even started.

I've never really understood people who brag about how they built a super athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc for under $300. I'm real proud of you and would pat you on the head if you were here. The thing is though, Macs have never been designed for people who like to tinker with hardware (not since the AppleIIs I think) so the point of those comparisons would be ...? I also wouldn't hold my breath for a bare-bones system if I were you, 'cause I don't see it ever happening.

Thanks for the flame.

athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc
Lol. And can you tell me what is an "ultra blaster pc"? What is an "athlon positron"?

Quite obviously the diction of a 12-year old. Fortunately for you, the rest of your post indicates otherwise, that you may be older than 12. Hmm...15 maybe? Ah...I hope I'm close.

However, since generally the rest of your post was rather civil I'll still respond. So OSX is easy? Last summer, I was taking a summer class, Landscape Architecture. We were studying some ancient civilization, and our teacher thought it'd be nice to bring in her very own pictures, that she had taken on vacation last year.

So the next day, she brings in her PBook. "Wow, that looks really nice". Of course, last year, I hadn't even touched OSX so I too was mystified, like the rest of my classmates. Well, she begins the presentation.

"The first picture is of...blah blah"...well 2 minutes in, the projector reset. Apparently the connection got cut off, or something. "Hmm, that's odd, it never does that." Ok, after 5 minutes of trying to get the projector to work again, it finally complies. "ahh, ok. Now the second picture".

*Boom*

Connection is lost again. Fortunately, one of our classmates had a IBM Thinkpad in there and she fortunately also had the pictures on a CD. So, we connect it to the IBM laptop and hook it up. It works. And no disconnecting. All she could do was shake her head, wondering what went wrong with the PowerBook.

[Mav451]

On the other hand, the mac is plagued with far fewer adware/spyware and viruses/worms. After finding keyloggers and tons of adware and spyware installed on my computer, I'm getting sick of using ANY windows machine. For this reason alone, I'm getting a powerbook as my next computer.

I am really mystified by how this myth is perpetuated. Windows is not at fault for the spyware/adware--it is Internet Explorer (but yes it is still Microsoft's fault nonetheless :) ). Use Firefox and the number of spyware you get will drop to a big goose egg.

Zero.

What you should be sick of are the Windows machines not running Firefox.

[jknight8907]

It wont even play the CD all the way through. If I want it to play the next song, I have to open it up. I'm so glad I switched. I'm not looking back.

I agree with you that Macs are way better, but:

To select multiple songs in one of these programs, hold down Control while you click each one. To select a range, hold down shift and click at the beginning and end.

[Krizoitz]

I'm not sure if this is true, but it has been mentioned here before that it is possible to contact the company and surrender your Windows software license in return for the Mac version (which makes sense to me, but then I'm not Adobe :)).

I will mention this to her , but what happens if she wants to keep her windows desktop but ditch her windows laptop? Since she will need both versions it makes sense to stick with windows economically for now.

[Krizoitz]

I am really mystified by how this myth is perpetuated. Windows is not at fault for the spyware/adware--it is Internet Explorer (but yes it is still Microsoft's fault nonetheless :) ). Use Firefox and the number of spyware you get will drop to a big goose egg.

Zero.

What you should be sick of are the Windows machines not running Firefox.

Windows IS at fault because it is designed such that the software can be installed without the user knowing it.

Oh and to the person who pointed out that an applications ability to corrupt the registry isn't the OS's fault I say not true. Yes the application is at fault for the damage but the OS and designers are at fault for not creating a decent registry. The registry is a mess. Plain and simple.

[Mav451]

Windows IS at fault because it is designed such that the software can be installed without the user knowing it.

Oh and to the person who pointed out that an applications ability to corrupt the registry isn't the OS's fault I say not true. Yes the application is at fault for the damage but the OS and designers are at fault for not creating a decent registry. The registry is a mess. Plain and simple.

You know, actually having used my iBook for quite some time, I am starting to see this. Installing updates required a password...just as the installation of something as insignificant as a game demo ALSO required it.

*Actually, this is even bigger than I thought. Imagine just how many less kids (using daddy's comp) would be installing "that game on the internet" without daddy knowing? Or how much less spyware would be installed, b/c every single piece of spyware would ASK before being installed?

I wish Windows would do this, but somehow I doubt something as simple as this will make it into Longhorn...or maybe XP SP2? If MS decides to at least require admin p/w for installations, it will be a step nonetheless.

[Timelessblur]

it does ask. just most people are dumbass and hit yes to some of the crap and also check the box always trust software from this site. almost all the spyware I find on the computer is in the forum of cookies.
If you know what you are doing in windows you can change a few setting and it will always require you to ask. People bitch about windows but give some one who knows what they are doing they can really protect a windows computers. Yeah some stuff will get by but there are ways to figure out what is running.

There is a nice little thing call a task manager. In there you can see ever single exe that is running and you can kill them from there. Also the register can not be altered unless you are an admin. guest and limited acounts can not do anything that effect the regerist

[BornAgainMac]

Windows is a great gaming platform. I have a few games that won't work with anything beyond Win95 so I am hoping Virtual PC 7 comes out soon for my G5.

Windows XP / 2000 feels very dated. The next version should be called Windows OT for (Old Technology). Perhaps they can bundle Microsoft Office as part of Windows and charge a subscription fee per month to use Windows. The court system can't seem to touch them. I don't know why Microsoft bothers with new development. They seem to have a large enough market share that they can pretty much sit on their hands for the next 20 years. They know it too.

[quagmire]

I think thousands even millions of people want to switch to Mac. But, can't because they are afraid of change. I have been hearing it doesn't have the start button. Oh let's see it's is a freakin different OS. You think every OS is going to have the start button. No! I also am hearing," No software, macs are useless." They have software, maybe not as much a windows but, how many word processors do you need? I have been hearing so many good things about the ipod from anti-apple people who don't know ipods are made by apple.I tell them and most say," Oh, they are, Oh well." One actually threw it on his bed saying," God beep beep it, I loved that thing, Oh well," and he goes picks it up and starts listening to it again.

[Mav451]

I think thousands even millions of people want to switch to Mac. But, can't because they are afraid of change. I have been hearing it doesn't have the start button. Oh let's see it's is a freakin different OS. You think every OS is going to have the start button. No! I also am hearing," No software, macs are useless." They have software, maybe not as much a windows but, how many word processors do you need? I have been hearing so many good things about the ipod from anti-apple people who don't know ipods are made by apple.I tell them and most say," Oh, they are, Oh well." One actually threw it on his bed saying," God beep beep it, I loved that thing, Oh well," and he goes picks it up and starts listening to it again.

Dude that last anecdote about the iPod scares me. Several people I know want the iPod simply because it is made by Apple, not the opposite as you put it.

Your start button anecdote does have merit though...

[Timelessblur]

Remeber switching over to mac can has a huge cost 2 it. A lot of software you may have to rebuy for the mac plateforum. Once you make the switch I think cost leval out to be simluar enough. Just the cost of the switch can be several grand

[AliensAreFuzzy]

I've been a long time Windows user. I know, I know, It's sucked over the years. I love computers, Probably a little too much.
Well, Anyways, within the past, oh, 2-3 years I've gotten really sick of Windows. I set up a network in my house. It took quite a while to get it to work with Windows. Then I got a virus. OMG! That was an ordeal. It took me over a month to get it cleaned out. Also I've been making movies with my friends lately. I have so many problems with rendering and exporting the videos. My brother got an iBook recently. I've been using iMovie to do editing, no problems. I've decided that I'm going to get a PowerBook. Completely decked out... As soon as I get the money. By then we'll probably have G5 PowerBooks. It'll be so sweet.
Point is (yes all this rambling did actually have some meaning) I've had a lot of problems with my windows machines. I love OS X so much more and it's such a nice feeling to know that I don't have to worry about it not working right. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

[hulugu]

Well, its your word against mine. Anecdotal vs. anecdotal Since nearly all the people I know who have built computers, completely illiterate to comp sci majors, were all done well--because they did the research BEFOREHAND. What might also be an issue is that they are all college students, so again, this may have a bearing on the quality of "home-built". I, too, did not build until I was in my sophmore year (2003). There's no way in hell I would trust a middle schooler to build my PC, a high schooler, MAYBE, just maybe if he was experienced enough.

On registry getting blown by programs? That the program's fault, not necessarily the OS itself. I've installed tons of games and the odd number of programs on my computer, legit AND unlegit. Nowhere in these installation/uninstallations did I run into any registry problem. The supposed "slowdown" hasn't been experienced by myself at all--I'm going 16 months strong, just like its new. )

I know we've had this same conversation before Mav, and I'm not saying that every Windows computer is mess and neither is every 'home-built' PC. I'm just saying that 'home-built' PCs can be crap and are not worth the hassle unless you are doing it both for the hobby and to have a great computer. And, its not fair to make Apple—a corporation of thousands, including R&D budgets and advertising (just like Dell, HP, etc.) to compete against the 'home-built' crew; they're different markets.

Secondly, lots of people hose their computers up by d'ling programs and then using the Add/Remove command just not all the comps-sci majors you hang around with. You have to remember that in each group there are specific sections of knowledge that doesn't exist in the general population at large. Many people who couldn't tell you the difference between an iMac or an eMac or the difference between a Chevy Camaro and a Pontiac Firebird or the difference between Classical or Neoclassical architecture.
Don't talk about yourself or the people you hang around with, think about you office secretary, your Lit Professor, your mother and then ask if it is remotely possible for a 'home-built' computer to fail and for the registry to get chewed up by a freeware CD-burning suite d'led from Version Tracker. Yeah Mav, it's possible and it happens all the time. Just not to you. I say the same thing about Macs, it's idiot proof: if you broke it, you're an idiot (apologies to whomever I stole this from).
The problem with Windows is you need JV16 PowerTools, Adaware, anti-virus, Spybot, to just keep it running you haven't actually done any real work yet. So unless you are a sysadmin, running all this stuff is a waste of time, and therefore money.
Wintel machines running Linux are perfectly acceptable, Windows is the problem in my humble and anecdotal filled opinion.
How do you like your iBook and OSX?

[JFreak]

i also once thought that it is an advantage being able to upgrade your hardware bit by bit, but now i have "switched" from that also. the reason: i bought a dirt-cheap imac that had a 400mhz g3 processor and half gig memory. the thing has been made in 1999 and cannot be upgraded. that cost me only 130 euros so i got it almost for free.

(ok, to all fairness and a homage to my old hobby i opened the case and replaced the hard drive to a new and fast one. that is a 80GB hitachi and cost me 70 euros.)

the thing is 5 years old having 5 year old apple specs and can run current os and current software very nicely - including photoshop, however rendering takes naturally a lot longer than with my 1.25ghz powerbook. but still, if needed, photoshop is usable with it. and so is imovie/iphoto/itunes and one can watch full screen dvd with it without a single skipped frame.

it blew my mind. i always thought computers should be upgraded every now and then to keep the latest software running. i always thought all-in-one computers cannot have long lifespan because they cannot be upgraded. now i have this 5-year-old beautiful piece of hardware that is completely usable. it has wireless networking, it has firewire and usb, it has slot-loading dvd-rom, bluetooth can be added via usb adapter. it doesn't have any kind of optical wiriting capability, but i don't miss it because my powerbook has a superdrive. and if i would miss it, there is a good selection of firewire burners out there.

5 years without hardware upgrades? show me a pc that old with original specs and i will laugh at it, and so does current windows os&software. sure you can upgrade that pc to current specs but to be honest that isn't so much cheaper than buying a new one. there's nothing wrong with apple selling complete systems with good specs, because - really - they stand the test of time.

that imac will probably run tiger, too, without upgrades. we'll see.

anyway, from now on, i will buy complete computer when i need to, and not worry about upgrades. when the time comes to buy a new one, i will just buy a new one with the money saved by not upgrading the old one all the time.

you see, that is the problem with constant upgrades: it eats the budget of the next new computer. by constant upgrades to old one it is hard to justify a purchase of a new one, and hard to find money for it too. naturally the old one is quite obsolete when you buy the new one, compared to upgraded version it could have been, but hey, you have the new one and not the upgraded old one. and instead of one upgraded computer you have two computers. even if the old one would be obsolete to me, there are plenty of non-profit organizations that would gladly accept a donation in the form of an old still but computer. i can gladly give it away for free because compared to constant upgrading, keeping that old configuration has saved the price of the new one.

[JFreak]

and... for the record... in my experience it is the cheap hardware that causes windows instability. i have had almost a year of uptime with quality hardware and windows nt workstation. sure, it is easy to break the windows os that doesn't defend itself from user stupidity, but even if the user would always know what he does, cheapo hardware will cause occasional hiccups.

so it is possible to build a windows pc as reliable as a mac, but it will not be any cheaper. it is not fair to compare a stabile mac to an instabile windows pc. the comparison must be made between two stabile systems.

[Mav451]

JFreak: That was a nice story...but my aunt (about as computer illiterate as they come -_-) is still running her mom and pop Athlon 550 on Windows 2000. She doesn't do much more than transfering photos off her digicam to print them...and its still running strong with only 256MB RAM--the amount of RAM it started with alongside a pitiful 20GB 5400RPM Maxtor.

And a source of reference for how well my aunt's "5-year old" PC could run against your 400G3 in apps like Photoshop, XLR8 comes to the rescue :)
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4CARDS/XLR8_G4_400Z/index3.html

And also--I am comparing a stable PC to a stable Mac (under the presumption that "all" Macs are stable). How do I know my PC is stable? I think 15 months without a reformat would be a start. No BSOD's, no hardlocks. In fact, I have to overclock clumsily and intentionally, just to induce that hardlock. That's how stable my system is. So can I compare my setup to a similar Mac setup? Of course, because its MY MONEY.

If you don't know how to build a system, then you are limited to pre-builts--fortunately I am not in that boat :)

[Mav451]

I know we've had this same conversation before Mav, and I'm not saying that every Windows computer is mess and neither is every 'home-built' PC. I'm just saying that 'home-built' PCs can be crap and are not worth the hassle unless you are doing it both for the hobby and to have a great computer. And, its not fair to make Apple—a corporation of thousands, including R&D budgets and advertising (just like Dell, HP, etc.) to compete against the 'home-built' crew; they're different markets.

Secondly, lots of people hose their computers up by d'ling programs and then using the Add/Remove command just not all the comps-sci majors you hang around with. You have to remember that in each group there are specific sections of knowledge that doesn't exist in the general population at large. Many people who couldn't tell you the difference between an iMac or an eMac or the difference between a Chevy Camaro and a Pontiac Firebird or the difference between Classical or Neoclassical architecture.
Don't talk about yourself or the people you hang around with, think about you office secretary, your Lit Professor, your mother and then ask if it is remotely possible for a 'home-built' computer to fail and for the registry to get chewed up by a freeware CD-burning suite d'led from Version Tracker. Yeah Mav, it's possible and it happens all the time. Just not to you. I say the same thing about Macs, it's idiot proof: if you broke it, you're an idiot (apologies to whomever I stole this from).
The problem with Windows is you need JV16 PowerTools, Adaware, anti-virus, Spybot, to just keep it running you haven't actually done any real work yet. So unless you are a sysadmin, running all this stuff is a waste of time, and therefore money.
Wintel machines running Linux are perfectly acceptable, Windows is the problem in my humble and anecdotal filled opinion.
How do you like your iBook and OSX?

Haha, ok, but I have a live experiment for you in the form of my twin brother--I built his Athlon box (basically same specs as mine, with his GF3 Ti550 transplanted from his old box). I tell him time and time again, that I will not fix it if he continues using IE.

Guess what? He still uses IE, and whenver I run Spybot on it, I find a ton of spyware on there. But lo and behold, months have passed since that time, Jan 2003 (start of Spring Semester), and yet his computer is still running strong. Which actually suprises even me. We're talking about a brother who doesn't care that he uses IE, clicks through pop-ups, and still runs BT like its his lifeblood.

I always expect the worst, that I'll have to reformat it any second now--Hah, actually I SCOLD him for that any chance I get! The odd part is, well, its been 11 months since I set it up for him in August 2003...and its still running strong. No BSODs, No hard locks--not even explorer.exe crashes!

(of course, it does run brand name hardware in every part of it...from the Antec True 430 PSU and the TwinMOS DDR400 ram to the A7N8X motherboard)

[BWhaler]

First off, I sit here amazed that this has not digressed into a flame/troll/anger thread. Great to read a well balanced discussion.

I made the decision to switch on January 7th, 2003 at my first Stevenote. Didn't actually buy a Mac until June since I was waiting for the 15" PowerBook. (I learned my first lesson about not trying to predict Apple's release schedule.) I will finish the big switch at the end of the month when I replace my old Dell with a new 2.5 PowerMac and display.

I am not a gamer, but it took me awhile to switch since the Mac was just different, and there was (the perceived) risk that I could go down a dead end street. I didn't care about the cost or re-buying the software, I just didn't want to buy something that became a paper weight.

But posting on the Mac boards gave me confidence. And there was excitement in the Apple community. So I switched.

I now know my fears were unfounded. I have purchased about $11.5K in Apple products since I switched, and it is the best technology I have ever acquired.

No regrets. But getting more switchers is going to be a game of inches.

[savar]

Good assessment, Nate. I'll add just one more reason:

Because I already know Windows, and I'd probably have to relearn everything on the mac.

This is even partly true. I tell people macs are better and they believe me because I'm the local "whiz" but most wouldn't spend money on one because they think Windows is "good enough".

My friend's mom asked us today to help her upload some digital pictures to a website on her Dell. We picked yahoo.com since that was already her startpage. The funny thing is, it doesn't automatically resize photos before you upload them. So it took her well over an hour to get all the pictures uploaded. And even then she was asking "well how do I make the album look different", etc. And the answer seems to be that you can't. Yahoo has a few corny "themes" for albums but none are very desirable.

Furthermore, the camera shows up as removable storage in "My Computer", but when you load up the picture software, it can't see the camera's smartcard. So we had to copy all the pictures over to the HD, even though the camera can be used as a Flash drive.

I thought to myself, "geez, in about 4 clicks and 15 minutes we could have done the same thing in iPhoto, and mom probably would have even *remembered* how to do it."

Also, as a corollary to the above: so few kids are exposed to macs in schools anymore.

Ahh well, hopefully Apple gets their act together *next* year.

[yamabushi]

The vast majority of consumers know relatively little about computers in general. Apple doesn't advertise the details of their products which help to provide a superior user experience. With each passing year users get more accustomed to Windows and develop a stronger bias towards it, despite its many flaws. Apple doesn't advertise the capabilities of Macs outside of the Mac community so most users assume they are inferior. It is therfore no surprise that most consumers ignore Macs entirely. Apple's biggest weakness is in effectively marketing their computers to new users.

[rdowns]

Gates used to work for apple.

Misconceptions abound, and they are carried forward through sellers, friends, and family alike.

Indeed.

[5300cs]

Windows XP / 2000 feels very dated. The next version should be called Windows OT for (Old Technology). Perhaps they can bundle Microsoft Office as part of Windows and charge a subscription fee per month to use Windows. The court system can't seem to touch them. I don't know why Microsoft bothers with new development. They seem to have a large enough market share that they can pretty much sit on their hands for the next 20 years. They know it too.

That's because it IS dated. XP is just an unstable version of 2000. They just change themes and added junk.

They continue developing new version of windows & office because they are not satisfied with just sitting back. They want to increase their profits. "Where do you want to go today?" Should be "How can we screw our customers today?" They've been known to chase after current customers demanding to know if they have proper licensed versions of windows and are not violating their EULA. If they can't account for everything, it's more money in m$s coffers...

[JFreak]

Because I already know Windows.

oh, yeah. my father-in-law also repeats this as some kind of a mantra when he is asked to buy an apple next time. and he is the person who most often asks how to use his computer. he thinks that all computers are hard to leard because he has used windows for so long. he actually doesn't even know how to use it, but it seems to be enough for him that he knows what is a start button and he knows that "internet is the blue icon on the desktop".

he recently bought a DV camera so there might be my only possibility to convince him buying an apple. i will not be able to give him support with it on the windows side :) it is already three years i last touched windows and DV camera at the same time...

yep. people know windows but don't know what to do with it.

[5300cs]

Thanks for the flame.

athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc
Lol. And can you tell me what is an "ultra blaster pc"? What is an "athlon positron"?

Quite obviously the diction of a 12-year old. Fortunately for you, the rest of your post indicates otherwise, that you may be older than 12. Hmm...15 maybe? Ah...I hope I'm close.


It was sarcasm, but I'm not at all surprised you weren't able to figure it out :rolleyes: I'm 28 by the way, you were close!

And it wasn't a flame, and I'm not sure why you took it that way. You built your own peecee and it's stable. Well, I could say I'm proud of you, but I'd be lying. I couldn't care less.

Oh yeah, thanks for answering my question about comparing Macs vs build-your-own-peecees

[ewinemiller]

Some folks just work better on the PC. I bought an ibook for the wife at the beginning of the year. She uses it for mail, browsing, etc., but when she wants to do serious work, she wanders into the office and boots up the PC. They have the same image editing software, are connected to the same scanner and printer, the ibook even has more memory, but she gets more work done on the PC.

There are a couple of things about the PC that greatly speed up her work. First the thumbnails built into Explorer make it easy to browse for the picture you need. She knows that you can multiselect images and bring them up in preview, but it's less steps to just open the folder in Explorer. The second thing that really gets her is the way OSX mounts shares. If the server is sleeping the next time she logs into OSX, it puts that message in her face that it can't connect and forces her to do do something about it. She ends up disconnecting and then can't get it connected when she needs it. On the PC you just map the drive and it stays without annoying you if it can't connect later. You get the little tool tip on the system tray icon when you first log in, but you don't have to do anything about it. When the fileserver comes up, it's available.

These days things are pretty stable on both sides as long as you use name brand parts (granted that is a default on the Mac), keep up with the security patches, and run virus software on the PC. The twitchy days of win9x and OS8/9 are long gone. At the high end Macs are extremely price competitive, but there is still some work to be done at the low end. Each person will find the platform they are comfortable with, can afford, and go there.

The militant mac evangelists are I think the platform's worst enemy. I like and use Macs and I hate getting stuck in a conversation with one. I see many potential switchers be turned off more by the culture than the performance, software availability, learning curve, or price. I find that I can get more converts not by evangelizing the Mac, but showing them the end result. Showing them the DVD of the kids I put together is 100x more effective than verbally telling them how easy to use and reliable the platform is. If they want to do the same sorts of things, they will ask, and I'll show them, but it's not for everyone.

[m.r.m.]

i don't really see the point in switching. i have a pc and a 12" pb. the powerbook is fantastic, but so is the pc (i assembled it myself. never crashed. not even once). why limit myself to one os and one philosophy when i can have both. i agree os x is the better os, but i guess i'll never run out of my need for windows, so i'm happy rinning both systems.

[SiliconAddict]

Why don't I switch? Simple. I'm not compromising what I already have for a slower product. I have few issues with OS X. It looks like a fantastic OS that still needs a bit of tweaking when it comes to GUI responsiveness but all in all I can deal with that. No its Apple hardware where the problems occur.
I've stated this time and again on the boards, enough so that people are probably rolling their eyes at this point, that the PowerBooks is an underpowered computer. I don't care how much thought Apple puts into its products. If the system feels slow to me I'm NOT going to be happy with it. And every time I go into an Apple store and start playing with that gorgeous 17" PowerBook the wait for some things in X is long enough that I can take the time to drum my fingers on the counter.
Bitch all you want about the PC world but my apps open in a snap on my 866Mhz Tosh laptop. From what I can tell this is a speed issue in that as soon as I turn around at the counter and play with a G5 the speed of opening an app is notably faster. Enough so that I'd say its >= to my out of date Tosh laptop. This smells like horsepower compensating for an OS but frankly I don't care about the reasons. I want a fast experience with whatever my next computer will be. People keep claiming on the board that OS X makes up for any deficiencies in the hardware. And to those who claim that I call BS on you. A computer is made up of hardware and software. If one is deficient it WILL affect the other in some form and will impact the experience one has with that computer. I will NOT compromise quality on a $3,500 purchase. (The price my 17" PowerBook would spec out to be.) So I wait, and wait, and wait for Apple to come out with a system that will make me a believer but I'm not going to wait forever. September 1st apple (I may push it back to that Apple Paris thing.) will either release something amazing or I will go and get myself an IBM. And for those who say I will be sorry? I'm a geek. A nerd. I know windows. I know its quirks. I know how to make it my ***** and that makes all the diff in the world when dealing with Windows. Consequently I've had next to no probs with 2K and XP. I've never been hacked. I've never been infected with a virus. No adware ever because I use FireFox and previously Mozilla.
So you know its not that big of a deal for me to stay on Windows. I have no love for MS and would prefer OS X but if Apple isn't going to ante up with some solid mobile hardware screw them. I consider an OS X an OPERATING SYSTEM. Not some freakish battle cry to take on the Redmond behemoth. I use what works and right now XP works just fine. Hardly perfect but good enough. That being said if Apple meets some prerequisites for me I will happily nab a 17" PowerBook in a heartbeat. I swear I go to Apple's site at least twice a week to spec out a PowerBook. I want one badly but not so badly that I'm going to blindly pounce on anything Apple releases.

Then you have the iPod. I have 37.8-38GB of tracks on my Tosh. The current iPod only is 40Gb which would barely hold my collection. (Someone told me it wouldn't hold it I have yet to do the math on what the actual storage space it so they may very well be right.) So again I'm waiting on Apple to catch up to my expectations.

Maybe my expectations are high. Maybe too high. But since I AM paying a premium for this computer I expect the specs to reflect that and right now, IMHO, that ISN'T the case.

[½win½lin]

Apple need to approach the task by giving reasons that Macs are better than Windows PC's.

And they don't.

They focus on features which are, in general, as good as a Windows PC and think that is going to make them overcome the inertia of finding an Apple dealer or website compared to the generic PC which is on every street corner.

Top Ten Reasons to Switch

1. The Mac ... it just works - ½ point

You learnt where your programs were, you learn where you documents were, now we've put them somewhere else.
Change has to be as painless as possible, and despite having a mac I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner computer user unless they have absolutely no Windows experience. This means a 'start' menu, 'programs' folder and *shudder* even My Documents, or at least a Windows theme. Look who's gaining desktop share : do-it-my-way Mac or bend-over-backwards-to-accommodate-windows Linux?
½ point for the driver stuff assuming my personal experience with printers is not entirley representative.

2. It doesn't crash - 0 points

zzzzzzzzz ... no less than Windows2000 or Windows XP. So what?

3. Simply the best in Digital Music - 0 points

Yes, a player with a battery that won't last a long haul flight. Downloadable music you can't listen to on any other player. Some reasonable software. All also available on Windows. D'oh!

4. The missing link in digital photography - ½ point

Not substantially better than XP. Experience certainly varies.

5. Your own digital entertainment centre - ½ point.

No arguments about the software and ease of use. Lose ½ point for constantly trying to find codecs for movies that 'just worked' under windows and the failure to find a full screen mode in QT. God that's embarassing.

6. Goes everywhere you go - ½ point

So do PC laptops and they are smaller and lighter and the batteries can be every bit as good. And yes they can change all those settings. Yes without rebooting. ½ point for the superb 12" iBook at a mere £800 ;)

7. It's built for the internet - ½ point

Is this really worth commenting on? They don't even bother mentioning viruses, spyware and such like, which is worth a point (assuming the computer buyer is experienced enough to know about them but inexperienced enough not to know how to deal with them). Cut half a point for the foot-shooting malware omission and blatant deceipt about ready for wifi - you are not ready without a wireless NIC, grrrr!

8. Office is Office and then some - 0 points

And thanks to exclusive features, the Mac versions improve on their Windows counterparts ... like what? Thus far they seem about the same apart from a few characters changing from a windows powerpoint on a mac.
Again, give me a reason Apple is better, not the same. I already have Office, I got it as a deal with my PC, will you give me a free upgrade, Mr. Gates? And what's the deal with those floating toolbars? I want my familiar office back please ... stop confusing me!

9. Works effortlessly with PCs - 0 points.

By and large, PCs work effortlessly with PCs. By and large Macs work effortlessly with PCs. So, why change?

10. It's Beautiful - 1 point.

Subjective but I would like to think the majority think Macs look better. Obviously this alone is worth 10 points in some quarters :)


3½ out of 10 for their own arguments.

I don't get out of bed for less that 7 let alone down to the computer store.

(and not one of the reasons I chose a Mac is metioned, but I don't think that unix-on-a-laptop is going to be that great a marketing tool)

[netytan]

Dude, u just rated there advertising. Surly it would be more acurate to grade the actual product :P.

Other than that you seem very biest 3 1/2 points what the ****! And, Windows 2000 and XP dont crash?! The number of problems i've had with them its a wonder *nix isn't the standard desktop OS!

Seriously, anyone spending any resonable amount of time infront of Windows will find it lacking; myself i've spent the last 6 years and aprox between 12 and 16 hours a day with it. Its a Joke, and from a developers point of view even more so (the only thing it has going for it is .NET and even Mac can use this now).

And the Unix underbelly of OSX is a great selling point for developers :). And I'm just happy to be finally getting away from this **** at long last!

Mark.

[rueyeet]

I think some of the discussion about build-your-own PCs and other largely niche (though perfectly legitimate!) reasons for not switching miss the point.

The Mac wouldn't have to be all things to all people, would not have to dominate every single tiny little specialized need in order to recoup some marketshare. They just have to appeal to the common denominator of computer users enough of the time.

The question Nate tried to answer wasn't: Why don't highly specialized market segments like the home-built enthusiasts or home gaming network people or what-have-you buy Macs? All you have to do is give their particular specialty and it explains why they don't want a Mac.

The more puzzling question is why doesn't your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, tech-support-needing consumer buy a Mac? We're not talking about people who know how to set up that much-vaunted "properly maintained installation" of Windows, here. We're talking about the folks who take advantage of CompUSA's consulting services just to have programs installed, who call tech support the second their computer doesn't behave as expected, who tell everyone about how they're "not good with computers", and who don't know that Internet Explorer is a browser (much less that there's more than one).

I think the most realistic reason I've seen yet is because they don't care. Not only that, they don't want to care, and don't see why they should. They neither know nor want to know enough about computers to make a real choice, they just ask the salesteen at their local big-box computer dealer and strike the best balance they can between the prices and spec lists they see offered. The object is to get the biggest spec numbers for the lowest price number, and that's usually it.

Maybe I'm just sour from my tech-support days, but I think some of the people discussing this question would be genuinely surprised to come face-to-face with how little most people know, or care to know, about computers. Even some of the people who DO research their purchases still don't know memory from disk space, or Internet Explorer from the Internet.

I think enough of those people are confused enough by a computer purchase (just read those yearly back-to-school "how to buy a computer" guides in your local paper if you don't believe me) that the strange, unfamiliar, non-Windows Mac is more than they can deal with thinking about. I really do.

[Fukui]

They neither know nor want to know enough about computers to make a real choice, they just ask the salesteen at their local big-box computer dealer and strike the best balance they can between the prices and spec lists they see offered. The object is to get the biggest spec numbers for the lowest price number, and that's usually it.

Since they only know that windows will be there (nothing else to ask for) the only real difference between each computer are the specs. IOW, they don't even know the mac exists as a legitamate option, or even at all.

[Timelessblur]

here is my though. I looks at what comes out for the mac on the page I say marketing Bull to 85%-90% of the crap they post. the other stuff I tend to look more carefully at. I would love to have expose for windows. Is it worth switching to mac for it HELL NO.

For me windows is just better. Mainly because I am know how to use it very well and there are many things in there that I would have trouble giving up. I dont want to give my up my task bar or start menu since I use them both very heavily. I have microsoft power toys that allow me to mess with the OS and set it up more to my liking. I am one of those people who is very good about system mantaince so I dont run into any really problems on my personal computer.
Mind you I am also not you average user. When I come back from collage I normal end up speeding an hour or 2 fixing and dont some mantances on the families computer because my parents dont do it. It a pain in the ass yes.
For people who know how to use windows very well and are just desent about maintaining there system I would say dont switch to macs it going to be a pain in the ass. Simple because there is less stuff you can really do to the OS look and feel but that for the more advance user who does very diffent things.
For my grandparents I going to recomend they buy a mac for there next computer simple because if you not very good at maintaince macs are much more forgiving and if dont know the advance stuff you not going to miss it and more than likely dont care. I think my mom sister and brother (maybe) could switch to the mac and not be phased to a great degree. for my dad and I we would stuggle at more since we know the more advance tricks on windows.


Now there are a few things that I hate and really can not stand about the mac OS and I mean I hated them since day one. The first computer I really used was my grandad parents apple II eh it an apple II I though it was really cool at the time (5 year old thinking hear).
The next computer I used was among one of the first generation macs so it was among the first GUIs. The one thing I hated about it was the menu place ment. I could not stand them always being at the top of the screen and I had trouble figure making them work right (I am 7-9 right now). I would click on the back ground by mistake and they would change so it was some time frustrating figure it out and after I figure out how to work them I could not figure out it logic. To me even then it was always more logic to put them on the windows them selves (like how it is done always been dont in windows. XP like). from there my house got it first computer. Some old IBM from my dads work. Dos computer that had a easy to use menu system (A,B,C ect)but it was not a GUI.
After that we got a windows 95 system and low and be hold the menu system for file edit and what not was the way I like it. They are on the bloody windows them selves the most logic placement in my eyes. I person wish apple would give you an opition do to that to it OS it would make windows user like me very pleased.

(windows user switching)
Yeah windows is good for a some what above average users who know has learned some tricks. Average user it is in the air. for the slightly below average user mac would be better and a switch would be good. Then there are the dumbass who have no right using a computer. They dont need a mac. They dont even need a computer.

[itsekuri]

NON-LEGITIMATE REASONS TO SWITCH

Its more expensive: Study after study shows that the long term investment can actually be cheaper, heck even when comparing machines with similar specs Macs are competative sometimes even cheaper. Sure you can get dirt-cheap PC's, but they are dirt.

Buy a PC Case, a 2500XP AMD processor, Radeon 9800pro, 512Mb memory and a 160GBHD separately (<700€). Ask the shop to build it or do it yourself. It's ridiculous to say that it's not a faster machine than a mac with the same pricetag!

Another example, Buy the same RADEON for a mac and you'll pay 100€ more! Let's say you want to get a new prosessor upgrade. It's costs a fortune for a mac, for PC updating your old AMD 1500+ to a 2500xp costs about 70€?

For big corporations with tech support etc mac might be a better choice, but it's absolutely stupid to say that buy any mac and it's cheaper than a PC. Specially for most consumers who need a Word, Excel, Email and Internet machine...

Example:
2x256 Mt, 400 MHz DDR 78 €
AMD Athlon XP 2500+ (Barton) Boxed 82 €
ASRock K7S8X 31 €
Club 3D Radeon 9800 Pro 128 Mt AGP 215 €
NEC ND-2510 8x IDE DVD+/-RW Dual Layer 87 €
Samsung SpinPoint P80 (160 Gt, 7200 RPM) 87 €
Samsung SyncMaster 753S 109 €
TOTAL 689 €

Now tell me which mac should I choose for 689 €. Notice the DVDRW and DualChannel Memory!

[Fukui]

I would click on the back ground by mistake and they would change so it was some time frustrating figure it out and after I figure out how to work them I could not figure out it logic.
This works fine in a single tasking, single app running environment (the old old mac os) with just the finder running plus one app where clicking on the background was an easy escape to the finder, but it starts to fall apart wil lots of apps running because there is a disjoint between the menu and the app itself, though it is nice to always have it in one place too.. trust me, comming from windows, sometime I wish photoshop would place a background behind all its windows like on the windows version so I wouldn't accedentally click the background for example, and loose the menu bar.

I think a nice compromise might be to have the menu come out of the apps icon in the dock when clicked, or, like on NEXTSTEP have it come out if you right/or middle click... I do think ascthetically speaking though, the menu bar on the top looks nicer...

[Danrose1977]

I was going to post here, and typed a rather lengthy message.... but frankly I decided that the whole debate bores me. There are far better things that we can all do with our time than attempt to convince people that MacOS makes a better home platform.

[Timelessblur]

looks wise the menu at the top is nice if but I find it breaks down in usefulness in multitasking. One of the most useful things I find I like about windows is my taskbar it is something I dont want to give up. Plus is fun have a skinable OS. I used to make my window laptop look look like OS X and it would require a double take to figure out that it was XP (looking closing at the menu bar you would notic it just the taskbar. I happen to like that skin but my hard drive on the laptop got reformated and some time bettween me getting that skin and the laptop reformated apple had sued to get it removed.

As I said before I think it would be a nice option for Mac to add the ablitly to put the menus on individl windows in the OS. mac it a choice since I know many macy would hate it and want to leave the menu just at the top.

Back on the task bar I like to know what my active widows are. Most programs I like to say in the task bar when minmized exact for things like my messager prgrams and music media players (something I wish I could do with itunes since it is my primery media player and it open pretty much when ever my computer is on. I wish I could minzimzed it and not have to have it cluter up my taskbar since it is normaly already clutter enough.

Besides I have learned I like to doing something the more advances ways using short cut key comonds more typing in the command simple because it is faster (Drafting programs are taking away my command line it is really getting to me). I have a feeling there is a lot of stuff you can do in macs like this but I dont know very well since when I started playing around in pear PC I found out that I had a bad motherboard (it a week old so I figure I got ship a bad one). I should have it back up and running this weekend and I contine playing around in Pear PC learning more about OS X and some of the stuff it can do. anything I find really instersting to look at and want to see what it like not being bogged down I just go to one of my friends with a mac and have them show me it on theres

[bryanc]

There are certainly circumstances in which a Wintel machine is the best choice. I think these circumstances are less common than is widely perceived, and that most users would be better served with modern Macs running OS X than they can imagine.

That has not been true for long. Prior to OS X, the MacOS was no better than Windows, and, while the hardware was arguably better in Macs, the diversity of software and hardware available on the PC side made PCs a better choice for most (me included).

I've been buying (and building my own) PCs, installing various OSes (DOS, DesqView, OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD, and every flavour of windows from 3.0 to XP Pro) since the early '80s, and I know how to make these systems work. My PC at home runs Win2k and Linux very well indeed, and I rarely have problems with it. I used to use it fairly heavily, and had consistent problems under Win2k with memory leaks when doing lots of slide scanning/photoediting under photoshop, but nothing a reboot wouldn't fix (sill...it was very irritating to have to reboot every few hours to keep the system running when I was working it hard). I never had any problems under Linux, but there were lots of things I never got around to setting up.

Since I purchased my PowerBook, I hardly ever use my PC any more. I can do everything with my PowerBook that I could under Windows or Linux on my PC, it never crashes, it needs almost no set-up or configuration, and I don't have to scan for viruses or spy-ware every week.

Messing around with computers was kind of fun for a few years, but now I like them to work well with a minimum investment of effort on my part. So paying a small extra percentage (actually, my PowerBook was cheaper than a similarly spec'ed Sony, but I'll agree that Macs are, in general, a little more expensive) is worth it to me.

I'd actually encourage any aspiring young computer geeks to build their own and run linux. Then, once they're skilled and getting well-paid, they can buy themselves Macs and use their knowledge to support their clients while they enjoy trouble-free computing on their own systems.

Cheers

[thejazzman10]

here is my though. I looks at what comes out for the mac on the page I say marketing Bull to 85%-90% of the crap they post. the other stuff I tend to look more carefully at. I would love to have expose for windows. Is it worth switching to mac for it HELL NO.

For me windows is just better. Mainly because I am know how to use it very well and there are many things in there that I would have trouble giving up. I dont want to give my up my task bar or start menu since I use them both very heavily. I have microsoft power toys that allow me to mess with the OS and set it up more to my liking. I am one of those people who is very good about system mantaince so I dont run into any really problems on my personal computer.
Mind you I am also not you average user. When I come back from collage I normal end up speeding an hour or 2 fixing and dont some mantances on the families computer because my parents dont do it. It a pain in the ass yes.
For people who know how to use windows very well and are just desent about maintaining there system I would say dont switch to macs it going to be a pain in the ass. Simple because there is less stuff you can really do to the OS look and feel but that for the more advance user who does very diffent things.
For my grandparents I going to recomend they buy a mac for there next computer simple because if you not very good at maintaince macs are much more forgiving and if dont know the advance stuff you not going to miss it and more than likely dont care. I think my mom sister and brother (maybe) could switch to the mac and not be phased to a great degree. for my dad and I we would stuggle at more since we know the more advance tricks on windows.


Now there are a few things that I hate and really can not stand about the mac OS and I mean I hated them since day one. The first computer I really used was my grandad parents apple II eh it an apple II I though it was really cool at the time (5 year old thinking hear).
The next computer I used was among one of the first generation macs so it was among the first GUIs. The one thing I hated about it was the menu place ment. I could not stand them always being at the top of the screen and I had trouble figure making them work right (I am 7-9 right now). I would click on the back ground by mistake and they would change so it was some time frustrating figure it out and after I figure out how to work them I could not figure out it logic. To me even then it was always more logic to put them on the windows them selves (like how it is done always been dont in windows. XP like). from there my house got it first computer. Some old IBM from my dads work. Dos computer that had a easy to use menu system (A,B,C ect)but it was not a GUI.
After that we got a windows 95 system and low and be hold the menu system for file edit and what not was the way I like it. They are on the bloody windows them selves the most logic placement in my eyes. I person wish apple would give you an opition do to that to it OS it would make windows user like me very pleased.

(windows user switching)
Yeah windows is good for a some what above average users who know has learned some tricks. Average user it is in the air. for the slightly below average user mac would be better and a switch would be good. Then there are the dumbass who have no right using a computer. They dont need a mac. They dont even need a computer.


you sound like a 15 year old bashing macs because when you were 5 you though that one of the early apples werent perfect.........unless, of course rabid macs burned down your house :D .....also, half of this post is spelt (or spelled) wrong

'nuff said.

[Timelessblur]

typic dumb ass maccy. Did not even notic any of the points I made. I said in one point what I hated about macs menus since day one. Set up they still use today so my point is a vaild point. I hated when I was 6-7 and I still hate the menu set up today. I never said any where the windows was better. I NEVER said I based my opinion mac OS from the quitly of an earily OS. I was making a point about there menu set up they use now and point out the fact that I had used that menu set up before I ever used M$ windows. I countering a point that people could come up with saying I am used to Windows 95 and be on. Now do you get it. read the post again if you dont beleive me.
The above average XP users is more than likely going to be happer off windows than having to loose all there tricks. The average users it in the air and it can go either way. For the below average user I said they should go to mac.

Now I not even going to count the dumbass who use a computer and have not right on them. They bring down the schools to where average looks a lot lower. Those people I not really counting would have just as many problems on a Mac as they would a Windows computer. They dont have any right on a computer. They are not willing to learn.


Btw I am dyslexic so I dont always see all my mistakes nor do I really ever go back though my post to find them because general I need to leave and come back later to see my mistakes (that is how I correct any papers I have to write). Chances are I am quite a bit smarter than you and I know more than you.

[Fukui]

:D .....also, half of this post is spelt (or spelled) wrong

'nuff said.
Thats unfair. If he was using Safari or Omniweb it would be different, but IE (windows) doesn't have spell checking in default text fields... I don't know about Mozilla.

[Crikey]

There are some interesting observations in this thread.

Here's my two cents:

To the typical ignorant windows user, buying a macintosh seems risky and dangerous. For example, would you invest 3-4 thousand dollars in a computer made by only one company which (to their estimation) could go bankrupt eventually, or buy a windows box and never worry about losing software and technical support since so many more companies and people use windows?

They don't know enough about Apple to make sound decisions and they are unlikely to want find more info on the subject, despite what they're missing out on. Truthfully speaking, there IS more hardware and software support on the windows side (the biggest one for me is 5.1 Dolby Digital sound support built into many new computers nowadays).

On the other hand, the mac is plagued with far fewer adware/spyware and viruses/worms. After finding keyloggers and tons of adware and spyware installed on my computer, I'm getting sick of using ANY windows machine. For this reason alone, I'm getting a powerbook as my next computer.

I think the new G5s have 5.1 Dolby Digital sound support built into them. It isn't mentioned very prominently on Apple's Web site; I had to look on
this (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86415) support page.

I had cable Internet installed yesterday. The Comcast guy apologized for bumbling around on my G4 looking for the Network Preferences. He said for years he had only installed their service on one Mac, but in the last month he's had to do three of us.

That's a nice trend.


Crikey

[Squire]

Since I purchased my PowerBook, I hardly ever use my PC any more. I can do everything with my PowerBook that I could under Windows or Linux on my PC, it never crashes, it needs almost no set-up or configuration, and I don't have to scan for viruses or spy-ware every week.


I'm in the same boat. I bought a 17" 1 GHz iMac when they came out and have used my PC only a handful of times since. I used to play multiplayer games quite often but I haven't done so recently. Actually, my wife and 2-and-a-half-year-old son are the only ones who use the PC nowadays. (There are some compatibility problems with our online banking.)

In a nutshell, using the PC just became too much of a headache. My PC did things that I didn't want it to do. My Mac, on the other hand, never does.

Squire