Dear Apple, WHY NO BLU RAY in the new Macs!?!?! ARGH! [Archive]

themoonisdown09

Oct 20, 2009, 01:29 PM

If you rip it (e.g. MakeMKV, AnyDVD HD Windows) to your Mac you can play it with Plex or XBMC, although no HD audio, only 5.1 DD or DTS.

I want to be able to insert a Blu-ray disc into my iMac, open up a free application (like Handbrake) and rip the movie for my iPhone.

I don't want to have to buy an external Blu-ray drive, buy a copy of Windows, install Windows on my iMac, reboot into Windows every time I want to rip a Blu-ray, etc. It seems like too much of a hassle right now.

I believe that whenever (or if) Apple decides to put a Blu-ray drive in their Macs, that free applications (such as Handbrake) will incorporate Blu-ray ripping.

why should i pay for something i dont use?

When (or if) Apple first offers Blu-ray drives in their Macs, it will be an optional feature. After a couple of years when they are cheaper and more people use it, then it will be standard. It should work just like DVD drives did when they first came out.

XP Defector

Oct 20, 2009, 01:31 PM

What the hells blueray?

cube

Oct 20, 2009, 01:32 PM

So use MakeMKV.

I just got a surround system. I'm not going to watch Blu Rays in stereo. And then there is BD+.

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 01:34 PM

I want to be able to insert a Blu-ray disc into my iMac, open up a free application (like Handbrake) and rip the movie for my iPhone.

You can use MakeMKV > Handbrake.

I don't want to have to buy an external Blu-ray drive, buy a copy of Windows, install Windows on my iMac, reboot into Windows every time I want to rip a Blu-ray, etc. It seems like too much of a hassle right now.

You don't need Windows, but you certainly need a Blu-ray drive of some kind. Otherwise you can't read Blu-ray discs.

I believe that whenever (or if) Apple decides to put a Blu-ray drive in their Macs, that free applications (such as Handbrake) will incorporate Blu-ray ripping.

There's already a Mac app for ripping Blu-ray discs. It's still in beta and will likely cost something when it's out, but it works very well and you then use Handbrake to put it into a container for just about anything.

I just got a surround system. I'm not going to watch Blu Rays in stereo. And then there is BD+.

You get Dolby Digital or DTS out these rips. That's 5.1 surround sound. You don't get True-HD or DTS-HD, which are uncompressed audio. Quite frankly, I notice no difference, but then again my ears are pretty old. BD+ is also in MakeMKV now, but the title key database isn't as extensive as it is for non-BD+ discs. It's coming along quite nicely.

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 01:40 PM

Sigh. I said $40 movies. The fact that you brought up DOWNLOADABLE HD MOVIES, kind of makes my point for me. Thanks for that.

Doesn't in the slightest. It's about choice and standards.

I want to play my blu rays where I want, not where YOU or APPLE tell me to :rolleyes:

Stop being the apologetic mac fanboy that the rest of the world laugh at. It's dumb not to want the industry standard player of high definition movies on your Personal Computer. And it's insulting that Apple did not include one when it would have cost next to peanuts to include one ESPECIALLY when you consider Macs are meant to be a premium product! It's embarrassing to say the least!

Can see this amusing little story play out a million times...

Friend 1: Hey, I bought a blu ray movie with me, stick it in your computer there's a great clip I want to show you :D
Friend 2: *Hangs head in shame* Er, my brand new super expensive mac doesn't have a blu ray player dude :mad:
Friend 1: PHSL (h = himself, PMSL)
Friend 2: *considers jumping off a cliff or suicide bombing apple HQ*

themoonisdown09

Oct 20, 2009, 01:43 PM

You can use MakeMKV > Handbrake.

I completely forgot about that application. My only problem with it is that it is currently in beta and will probably cost something in the future.

I guess in order for Handbrake to do the full process, the VLC decryption library would have to support Blu-rays (since that's what Handbrake uses now). Once that library is updated, then Handbrake would have to support Blu-rays. Here's to hoping that this happens within the next year or so. :D

silentnite

Oct 20, 2009, 01:47 PM

Yeah! we didn't get the blu-ray. What we did get is something nice to work with. I'm sure other company's seeing apple leave this feature out will start taking advantages of it and produce some nice external Blu-ray drives. If we wait and blu-ray prices drop, which they will. I'm sure we'll start to see Blu ray external drives everywhere. :D

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 01:49 PM

I guess in order for Handbrake to do the full process, the VLC decryption library would have to support Blu-rays (since that's what Handbrake uses now). Once that library is updated, than Handbrake would have to support Blu-rays. Here's to hoping that this happens within the next year or so. :D

Decrypting Blu-ray is much more challenging than DVDs, so it might be some time (if ever) before we see that in VLC Lib. Plus, HB will have to get better at handling DTS-HD - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This doesn't seem to be a problem with True-HD; HB extracts AC3 DD from it just fine.

z3r0inc

Oct 20, 2009, 02:09 PM

you know what pisses me off? the keyboard with numeric keypad is STILL wired... AND it takes an additional 2 days to friggin ship...

...oh yea, and no blueray... not as frustrating though.

Aadhil

Oct 20, 2009, 02:12 PM

I barely use the superdrive let alone blu-ray

JAT

Oct 20, 2009, 02:18 PM

Doesn't in the slightest. It's about choice and standards.

I want to play my blu rays where I want, not where YOU or APPLE tell me to :rolleyes:

Stop being the apologetic mac fanboy that the rest of the world laugh at. It's dumb not to want the industry standard player of high definition movies on your Personal Computer. And it's insulting that Apple did not include one when it would have cost next to peanuts to include one ESPECIALLY when you consider Macs are meant to be a premium product! It's embarrassing to say the least!

Can see this amusing little story play out a million times...
Friend 1: Hey, I bought a blu ray movie with me, stick it in your computer there's a great clip I want to show you
Friend 2: *Hangs head in shame* Er, my brand new super expensive mac doesn't have a blu ray player dude
Friend 1: PHSL (h = himself, PMSL)
Friend 2: *considers jumping off a cliff or suicide bombing apple HQ*

Maybe you should try playing it your Bluray player instead. Christ!

Personally, I wouldn't bring a BD over to a friend's house, anyway. Freak might damage it.

300D

Oct 20, 2009, 02:21 PM

The lack of bluray is the only thing keeping me from buying a new Mac.

At this point, the only benefit to Apple forcing me to wait is that LightPeak may be part of the update in March.

mrkgoo

Oct 20, 2009, 02:28 PM

It's interesting also that the new Macs have the true HD aspect ratio of 16:9 as opposed to the standard 16:10 the computer industry normally stick to.

Ka Ora!

Oct 20, 2009, 02:28 PM

The lack of bluray is the only thing keeping me from buying a new Mac.

At this point, the only benefit to Apple forcing me to wait is that LightPeak may be part of the update in March.

March 2015:D

pastrychef

Oct 20, 2009, 02:28 PM

I'm glad Apple didn't give in to the DRM requirements of Blu-ray. I hope they never do.

IgnatiusTheKing

Oct 20, 2009, 02:31 PM

If you really thought the new iMacs were going to have Blu-Ray, you haven't been paying attention. Until the Mac Pro gets the ability to read and write Blu-Ray, I don't believe you will be seeing either function on the iMac.

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 02:32 PM

Maybe you should try playing it your Bluray player instead. Christ!

Personally, I wouldn't bring a BD over to a friend's house, anyway. Freak might damage it.

No, I don't want to go downstairs to watch a movie ALL the time. Sometimes I want to watch one in 1080p on my 30" dell (2560 x 1600 btw, not the crappy x 1440 the new 27" imacs got) WHILST working on the mac at the same time.

While I tend to watch blu rays downstairs in the lounge on the PS3 for the first time, sometimes I like to watch them a second time - but whilst doing other stuff at the same time. Or as is the case if the movie doesn't interest me that much but I still want to watch it (but don't want to devote 100% to it).

But I guess for most kids thesedays, watching it on their PC/Mac is the best place - as kids love the privacy of their bedrooms!

Apple is pissing off a lot of movie buffs by not including one - movie buffs know the difference between 720p and 1080p, and streamed (highly compressed) and solid media (blu ray) quality.

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 02:35 PM

Apple is pissing off a lot of movie buffs by not including one - movie buffs know the difference between 720p and 1080p, and streamed (highly compressed) and solid media (blu ray) quality.

I think Apple's biggest issue is the inherent OS invasiveness of the Blu-ray rules. If you want Blu-ray video on your Mac you can do it. It's just a matter of taking the time to rip the disc to your hard drive. Then you can watch it anywhere you want.

300D

Oct 20, 2009, 02:35 PM

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 02:39 PM

I think Apple's biggest issue is the inherent OS invasiveness of the Blu-ray rules. If you want Blu-ray video on your Mac you can do it. It's just a matter of taking the time to rip the disc to your hard drive. Then you can watch it anywhere in your want.

What inherent OS invasiveness? Apple was on the blu ray consortium board of directors for christs sakes.

It's all about forcing their download service on us. And it bugs the hell out of me.

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 02:45 PM

What inherent OS invasiveness?

At the kernel level. Apple likely believes they should be the only ones to have code in the kernel, and I don't blame them.

Apple was on the blu ray consortium board of directors for christs sakes.

What does this have to do with anything? Apple cannot impose their will on the Blu-ray group.

It's all about forcing their download service on us. And it bugs the hell out of me.

This is probably true.

Nermal

Oct 20, 2009, 02:45 PM

Blu-Ray on a computer is a gimmick anyway. If you want to burn blu-ray for some weird reason, get an external drive. Watching $40 movies on a computer screen? NO THANKS.

I've seen a few people make this comment, but I don't understand it. I know that a lot of people enjoy watching movies on their computer (I'm one of them, but I have several friends that do too). What's the issue with watching movies on a computer? :confused:

Edit: More to the point, if you want support then send feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/dvdplayer.html) to Apple. I just have, and if enough people do then hopefully Apple will start paying attention.

300D

Oct 20, 2009, 02:50 PM

Apple cannot impose their will on the Blu-ray group.

Um, being part of the decision making process is kind of the entire point of being on the board in the first place!

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 02:59 PM

At the kernel level. Apple likely believes they should be the only ones to have code in the kernel, and I don't blame them.

Please elaborate.

As far as I am aware it's to do with DRM - just like code is there for other DRM currently handled by apple.

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 03:09 PM

Um, being part of the decision making process is kind of the entire point of being on the board in the first place!

They are one vote of many. I suspect the studios held the upper hand on this because of how easily DVD encryption was defeated.

Please elaborate. As far as I am aware it's to do with DRM - just like code is there for other DRM currently handled by apple.

The Blu-ray Disc specification requires decryption and HDCP code at the kernel level of the OS, which is parsed every few seconds (unlike DVDs, which are only checked upon insertion).

Again, I don't know if this is Apple's rationale, but it could be.

TheBritishBloke

Oct 20, 2009, 03:11 PM

Because blu-ray is a BAG OF HURT. And a WASTE OF MONEY. End of.

pastrychef

Oct 20, 2009, 03:12 PM

Please elaborate.

As far as I am aware it's to do with DRM - just like code is there for other DRM currently handled by apple.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/aacs-tentacles.ars

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 03:13 PM

I've seen a few people make this comment, but I don't understand it. I know that a lot of people enjoy watching movies on their computer (I'm one of them, but I have several friends that do too). What's the issue with watching movies on a computer? :confused:

Edit: More to the point, if you want support then send feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/dvdplayer.html) to Apple. I just have, and if enough people do then hopefully Apple will start paying attention.

Thanks! I just posted this:

Comment:

Apple Macs are meant to be a premium product, yet (the new iMacs, with 1080p screens I hasten to add!) don't even have a blu ray drive!!

Please don't tell us we wouldn't notice the difference between BR movies and those offered via your download service. (And please don't try to tell us how we should buy our movies!) We're not dumb. We want the choice to play them on our personal computers if we want to. And we want BR because it is the industry standard and the quality is the best you can currently get - and did I mention industry standard? Most premium windows PC come with a blu ray drive now!

From a disappointed and angry Mac user, who is beginning to distrust Apple more and more by the day.

I love Apple products, but when a company starts to put profit way before customers then it's time to move on.

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 03:19 PM

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/aacs-tentacles.ars

Yep it's to do with DRM. And completely acceptable that Hollywood would want appropriate code in place to prevent movies being ripped so easily. (The code is just meant to monitor access to DRM content by unauthorised apps - and prevent it if that happens.)

Like I said, it's nothing to do with expense or security - but everything to do with Apple wanting to push their download service.

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 03:26 PM

Like I said, it's nothing to do with expense or security - but everything to do with Apple wanting to push their download service.

I think it has more to do with implementing a compromised encryption system that bogs down the computer. This issue is with the studios, not Apple.

pastrychef

Oct 20, 2009, 03:33 PM

I think it has more to do with implementing a compromised encryption system that bogs down the computer. This issue is with the studios, not Apple.

Agreed.

supinternet

Oct 20, 2009, 03:35 PM

Because not many people really care that much about bluray.
And if you would want to watch a bluray movie you'd see it on a nice big tv screen. Think about it. Lolmy best guess is that macbooks and MacBook pros will get it befrr anything else does just because they'll be updated next year or so.

But I'll be honest, I really don't care about bluray. Ituneshd quality isn't that bad. And if I want to watch a good quality bluray movie of rather sit on my couch than a computer chair to see it on a much smaller screen.

And of they added Bluray macs would be more expensive.

msmth928

Oct 20, 2009, 03:36 PM

I think it has more to do with implementing a compromised encryption system that bogs down the computer. This issue is with the studios, not Apple.

What are you on about? It's not a 'compromised encryption system' - no more than Apple's own DRM for it's own players.

The only issue is they _have_ to add some protection to prevent unauthorised apps getting access to any movies being outputted (and that can only be done at kernel level) i.e. to prevent rippers and the like. Nothing unreasonable about that.

Don't believe the Apple BS - unless they specifically come out and say WHY blu ray is 'a bag of hurt' it's nothing more than marketing and fud to mask their real reasons. (But not all of us are that gullible.)

rayward

Oct 20, 2009, 03:44 PM

If you want Blu-ray on your iMac, just connect a Blu-ray Disc player to the video-in port of the 27" iMac. Or get yourself a Blu-ray drive and rip them onto you iMac for playback. It can be done, just not in one nice package.

This is a real shame, but quintessentially Apple at the same time. At least with quad-core processors and up to a 2TB HDD, ripping and storing HD movies on an iMac became much more viable. It just requires the external Blu Ray drive.

Anyone know Santa's email addy?

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 03:51 PM

What are you on about? It's not a 'compromised encryption system' - no more than Apple's own DRM for it's own players.

This isn't true. AACS encryption has been defeated many times over. Apple's FairPlay for video has been much more difficult to defeat. Quite frankly, I'm surprised the studios haven't switched to it since it's clearly the best out there. But I guess they don't want to be under Apple's thumb anymore than they already are (i.e., iTunes Store).

The only issue is they _have_ to add some protection to prevent unauthorised apps getting access to any movies being outputted (and that can only be done at kernel level) i.e. to prevent rippers and the like. Nothing unreasonable about that.

So the studios should adopt FairPlay (which they have for movies and TV shows on the iTS). Why should Apple include decryption code for a system that's already been defeated? That sounds rather pointless.

Don't believe the Apple BS - unless they specifically come out and say WHY blu ray is 'a bag of hurt' it's nothing more than marketing and fud to mask their real reasons. (But not all of us are that gullible.)

I understand Apple's reluctance to incorporate code in the kernel of OS X. I mean, that really is intrusive. Combine that with the fact that the decryption has already been defeated for DVDs and Blu-Rays (see all the apps that rip these discs) simply strengthens Apple's position.

Don't misunderstand me - I'd like to see native Blu-ray support on Macs, too. But I also see Apple's point in not implementing it.

northy124

Oct 20, 2009, 04:29 PM

Just as I thought, they wouldn't add Blu-ray.

To me it isn't that much of an issue but I'd rather watch the actual Blu-ray in a drive than rip the film with MakeMKV to my Mac, just simpler IMO.

Did I see somewhere that there is Video In or was I seeing things? as if there is Video In could one in theory connect ones PS3/Blu-ray Player and watch through that?

Nermal

Oct 20, 2009, 04:38 PM

Did I see somewhere that there is Video In or was I seeing things? as if there is Video In could one in theory connect ones PS3/Blu-ray Player and watch through that?

The 27" model has a DisplayPort input.

Playback software would be better in the long run though; once laptop drives are available for a reasonable price then I'd rather put one in my MBP than lug a player around :)

Bartman01

Oct 20, 2009, 04:43 PM

Sigh. I said $40 movies. The fact that you brought up DOWNLOADABLE HD MOVIES, kind of makes my point for me. Thanks for that.

What are you talking about with "$40" movies? BluRay around here (in the US) are $15-$30 at major retailers and less at discount stores. The new transformers for example is $25 right now and for DVD it is $22.99 from the same retailer.

northy124

Oct 20, 2009, 04:45 PM

The 27" model has a DisplayPort input.
Cool that is the one I was looking at, so glad I didn't buy a MBP (don't need portability :) ) or an MP (thought I'd wait for the iMac update)
Playback software would be better in the long run though; once laptop drives are available for a reasonable price then I'd rather put one in my MBP than lug a player around :)
Yh it would be, and wish someone would come out with one already lol

tflournoy95

Oct 20, 2009, 08:09 PM

What the hells blueray?

wow. lol:D

Mr Dobey

Oct 20, 2009, 09:04 PM

And of they added Bluray macs would be more expensive.

Right now you can get a LG Blu-Ray player for $119 new.

I bought an external USB 2.0 Blu-Ray drive for $99 new.
Take away it's casing it would be a standard 12.7mm drive that could sell for about $89 new.

If I as a consumer can buy a Blu-Ray drive for that cheap right now, it would cost Apple a whole whopping $20 bucks or so to put one in there iMac/mini/Mac Pro/17" MacBook Pro.

Price is definitely not the issue. IMO it's because they're so stuck on the next generation download only world.

panzer06

Oct 20, 2009, 09:34 PM

why should i pay for something i dont use?

That's just silly. My wife has never burned a CD or DVD but every system she's used over the past 3 years has a DVD burner. Your logic says all these systems should just have a CD or DVD ROM drive for loading software?

There is no rational reason to not make Bluray a BTO option. Even $800 Windows laptops have them (granted those lot come with Intel 4500 GPU).

I have Macs and PCs and plenty of TVs and Bluray players for standalone watching but with 24, 27 & 30 displays, sometimes I just watch a movie at my desk.

*Sigh* It would just be nice to have more options from Apple.

Cheers,

Cave Man

Oct 20, 2009, 09:46 PM

If I as a consumer can buy a Blu-Ray drive for that cheap right now, it would cost Apple a whole whopping $20 bucks or so to put one in there iMac/mini/Mac Pro/17" MacBook Pro.

Price is definitely not the issue. IMO it's because they're so stuck on the next generation download only world.

Hardware isn't the issue at all. It's the rules that go with Blu-ray.

barkomatic

Oct 20, 2009, 10:02 PM

I've really stopped waiting for Apple to catch up with every other computer maker and include blu-ray. At this point, windows 7 is coming out on Thursday and it will be followed by a ton of new hardware from other computer makers.

I think those people who don't care about blu-ray should buy a mac if they want one. I however, consider blu-ray a standard feature at this point and if Apple refuses to include it soon I will purchase another--and probably much cheaper--computer that has it. Windows 7 is a stable, solid operating system so I no longer need to fear Vista anymore.

Other makers have even started to move on from Core 2 duo on their laptops -- but of course Apple's high end MBP still has it. When Apple finally gets around to upgrading months from now probably, they'll be going on and on about how much more advanced they are. lol Slick marketing can fool so many. . .

Bryan Bowler

Oct 20, 2009, 10:51 PM

I've really stopped waiting for Apple to catch up with every other computer maker and include blu-ray. At this point, windows 7 is coming out on Thursday and it will be followed by a ton of new hardware from other computer makers.

<cut>

When Apple finally gets around to upgrading months from now probably, they'll be going on and on about how much more advanced they are. lol Slick marketing can fool so many. . .

Then you should move along to Windows. Nothing to see here...

Bye bye.

Michael CM1

Oct 21, 2009, 12:20 AM

Apple - Blu-ray = epic fail

Apple will spend all the time in the world developing a crappy remote control (ooh, it's aluminum now!) that doesn't address the suckitude of Apple TV nearly three years in, but these guys can't put Blu-ray in a computer? Effin' PC notebooks have Blu-ray drives in sub-$1,000 models. If a 3 GHz-based iMac can't handle what the hell it is that makes/made Blu-ray a "bag of hurt," Apple has bad engineers.

As for the fools who still ask why people would want to watch movies on a computer, I would like to point out that most people who buy movies or TV shows from the iTunes Store aren't rushing out to buy Apple TV. There's a small segment that uses Mac Minis for media servers, but most use iTunes or Front Row to watch video. With a 1080p screen in these new iMacs, it boggles the mind that Blu-ray isn't available.

Now for the arse-clowns who know nothing: You know what you call a $40 Blu-ray set? A TV series. Most movies and TV shows sold on Blu-ray are within $5 to $10 of their DVD counterpart. If you shop around for sales, you can find PLENTY of good movies for $15 or less. Whoever the idiot was who pulled the $40 movie claim out of his bum should beat himself with a $40 Blu-ray movie. Geez. And while I'm at it, you can find a Sony BD player for $129, other brands for $100. They may not have the bells and whistles of the more expensive models, but they play the movies. Not everybody needs Netflix streaming (I do!).

Cave Man

Oct 21, 2009, 12:55 AM

While I love the new word "suckitude" and may, in fact, start using it as part of my daily vernacular, I want to re-re-re-re-emphasize that the terms for Blu-ray Disc playback are the real problem since they require kernel-level code. I understand Steve's apprehension regarding them ("bag of hurt"), and for that reason this is a problem for the studios, not Apple.

zbasarab

Oct 21, 2009, 01:26 AM

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 01:38 AM

the terms for Blu-ray Disc playback are the real problem since they require kernel-level code. I understand Steve's apprehension regarding them ("bag of hurt"), and for that reason this is a problem for the studios, not Apple.

+1.

I hope Apple never ever pollutes MacOS with BluRay DRM crap (AACS/BD+/HDCP/etc). It's been tried on Windows and it's a disaster.

Studios have made it prohibitively difficult to playback BD movies on computers, so screw them. I will just rip my disks and get around their ridiculous DRM sandboxes that way. And believe it or not, MacOS already includes all the necessary support for BD reading/burning.

Could care less about lack of "native" BD movie playback - in fact I hope it stays this way.

wesrk

Oct 21, 2009, 01:47 AM

Whoever the idiot was who pulled the $40 movie claim out of his bum should beat himself with a $40 Blu-ray movie.

LOL! :D Made my day!

Michael CM1

Oct 21, 2009, 02:52 AM

bluray = movies for rich people and hipsters.

y'all are idiots. bluray will never be on a apple machine. by the time apple gets a license, hard media will have been phased out or impractical.

bluray will not overcome dvd's market share for years if ever.

stop complaining

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=br_lf_m_1000427441_grlink_3?ie=UTF8&plgroup=3&docId=1000427441

Yes, a format for those uber-rich people who can't shell out $10. Seriously, there are PLENTY of quality titles for $20 or less. That list is just Amazon's $12.99 and under. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince is pre-ordering at $18.99 for a BD/DVD/digital copy pack. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is $19.99. When DVD first came around, new stuff was usually about $17-18 on a good first week sale and then went to $20 or $25 until the goobers selling the movie wised up and dropped it back down. Blu-ray is no different, and we're a decade later (inflation, hello).

I won't disagree with you on the market share because DVD is the base for digital video formats. Both HD DVD and BD players also play DVDs and CDs, which is why CDs and DVDs rocked so hard. BD is just a huge enhancement on picture and sound quality, and the hardware is a lot more connected to the Internet than any standalone DVD player. People are also going to buy HDTVs before a BD player. There's absolutely no reason to buy a BD player if you have an older TV. But one way DVDs made inroads was the inclusion of DVD-ROM drives in computers. Now you can't find a computer without a DVD burner.

Others can blab all they want about kernel-level DRM and whatnot. That means bunk to the majority of computer users. There are likely hundreds of thousands of Mac users who want a Blu-ray option. If Apple is going to treat Apple TV as a hobby, then they should at least give us BD drives, a technology that I swear is five years old already. How long do you think it'll take USB 3 ports to hit Macs?

willcodejavafor

Oct 21, 2009, 05:11 AM

'Cause no one really needs BR in their iMac

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 06:47 AM

barkomatic

Oct 21, 2009, 07:46 AM

cube

Oct 21, 2009, 07:53 AM

You might be right that blu-ray will never make it to a mac though. Everyone besides apologists would prefer it though.

I have been waiting for native Blu Ray support, but not anymore if it infects the whole system with DRM.

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 08:05 AM

You might be right that blu-ray will never make it to a mac though. Everyone besides apologists would prefer it though.

I'm not an apologist. I, personally, just don't need or want blu-ray. I don't have a blu-ray player for my TV nor will I ever get one.

barkomatic

Oct 21, 2009, 08:09 AM

I have been waiting for native Blu Ray support, but not anymore if it infects the whole system with DRM.

My understanding of this issue is that a person would still be able to easily rip a DVD on a Blu-ray equipped mac but not be able to easily rip a blu-ray.

lamadude

Oct 21, 2009, 08:11 AM

Apple always seems to be lagging behind on optical drives. They thought that a dvd-burner was a premium product and didn't even include it on all macbooks untill recently. Even 500$ Vaio's have blu-ray drives these days.
If you don't need it, sure no problem, don't use it. But for a product that is so cheap and has become the standard for high definition movies, they should include it.

jjahshik32

Oct 21, 2009, 08:13 AM

johnrs

Oct 21, 2009, 08:15 AM

Why are people so eager for bluray? I just dont see the need for it with huge HDD spaces these days.

If you want bluray go and buy one... what is it with bluray anyway

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 08:41 AM

Why are people so eager for bluray? I just dont see the need for it with huge HDD spaces these days. Besides I already have a PS3 connected to the big screen.

But then I use my Mac to connect to the hdtv to watch the mkv bluray movies. ;)

If you have a PS3 or Xbox 360, you can use PS3 Media Server to stream your content to where your TV and PS3/Xbox 360 are. Setup is a breeze, too.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 08:51 AM

Once you let these people dictate what you put in your OS it will open up floodgates. We are moving towards digital media and physical media's days are numbered anyway. Why succumb to them?

Those who are willing to sacrifice the usability of Mac OS X and go to Windows just for the sake of watching some Blu-ray discs on their computer, good luck and have fun.

Why are people so eager for bluray? I just dont see the need for it with huge HDD spaces these days. Besides I already have a PS3 connected to the big screen.

But then I use my Mac to connect to the hdtv to watch the mkv bluray movies. ;)

People want Blu Ray because the quality of downloadable content, even HD movies from iTunes, is complete garbage compared to Blu Ray, and frankly, if you can't tell the difference between some compressed crap from the iTunes store and a Blu Ray, you're blind.

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 09:02 AM

People want Blu Ray because the quality of downloadable content, even HD movies from iTunes, is complete garbage compared to Blu Ray, and frankly, if you can't tell the difference between some compressed crap from the iTunes store and a Blu Ray, you're blind.

Wouldn't you want to watch that high quality content on a TV rather than your computer???

If you can't see that then you're blind.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 09:18 AM

Wouldn't you want to watch that high quality content on a TV rather than your computer???

If you can't see that then you're blind.

I would, yes, because I have a 40" HDTV, but the iMac screens are nice and if I didn't have a TV I surely wouldn't mind being able to watch a Blu Ray movie on the iMac screen. They're high def screens after all.

They cut the resolution down to 16:9 which is more appropriate for TV and movies and yet they don't have a Blu Ray player (or TV tuner for that matter) in them. Apple dropped the ball on that.

bartzilla

Oct 21, 2009, 09:23 AM

+1.

I hope Apple never ever pollutes MacOS with BluRay DRM crap (AACS/BD+/HDCP/etc). It's been tried on Windows and it's a disaster.

When you say you hope that Mac OS never becomes "polluted" with stuff like HDCP, do you mean the HDCP thats already in the DisplayPort spec (and hence any mac with Mini DisplayPort) or do you mean something else?

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 09:26 AM

When you say you hope that Mac OS never becomes "polluted" with stuff like HDCP, do you mean the HDCP thats already in the DisplayPort spec (and hence any mac with Mini DisplayPort) or do you mean something else?

Or how about other DRM crap like CSS for DVDs, or FairPlay for iTunes (pre iTunes-plus)? Hell, OSX itself is one big piece of DRMed crap if you take into account that you can't install it on non-Apple hardware without some hacking around.

Cave Man

Oct 21, 2009, 09:27 AM

msmth928

Oct 21, 2009, 09:28 AM

Wouldn't you want to watch that high quality content on a TV rather than your computer???

If you can't see that then you're blind.

Er, what's wrong with watching it on a 27" high res screen (that Apple have put into the new iMac)?

It makes me laugh when people say, well wouldn't you want to watch it on your TV. ...WHY!?!?!?!

Cos TV's are bigger? It's all relative to the distance you sit from them. In other words the closer you are the less need there is for a bigger screen.

bartzilla

Oct 21, 2009, 09:29 AM

Wouldn't you want to watch that high quality content on a TV rather than your computer???

If you can't see that then you're blind.

Why do you assume it's either one or the other?
Can you say "Mac Mini connected permanently to the TV as a media centre"?
If you can't see that then you're, er, blind.

TheAshMan

Oct 21, 2009, 09:33 AM

Blu-Ray on a computer is a gimmick anyway. If you want to burn blu-ray for some weird reason, get an external drive. Watching $40 movies on a computer screen? NO THANKS.

That completely ignores the point of Blu-Ray as a high density storage medium. I for one would love to have an optical drive with 50 GB of capacity each, it would great for backups. Watching movies on it would be secondary, but I would really like to be able to do that when I am flying or on a train. Hardly a gimmick. Also for the future, if I have a Blu-Ray in my living room, I would like to be able to watch it on any screen I have and not have to go buy/rent it in DVD version. Also, I see a lot of Blu-Ray movies for $15-20 to buy, plus renting is only $5.

bartzilla

Oct 21, 2009, 09:35 AM

I suspect he means the software that's required for ensuring HDCP (and decryption) compliance.

Oh you mean the DRM that is (or at least was) built into itunes movies (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2008/11/apple-brings-hdcp-to-a-new-aluminum-macbook-near-you.ars)?

Either way I think my point still stands. All the emo whining about how the mac must never become polluted by DRM is not so much fiddling while Rome burns as it is dancing on the embers after the fire died out.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 09:35 AM

Er, what's wrong with watching it on a 27" high res screen (that Apple have put into the new iMac)?

It makes me laugh when people say, well wouldn't you want to watch it on your TV. ...WHY!?!?!?!

Cos TV's are bigger? It's all relative to the distance you sit from them. In other words the closer you are the less need there is for a bigger screen.

And if you look on Apple's website for the iMac, one of the selling points is how great the screen is for movies. So you'd think they would want to give you the equipment to make best use of that screen.

TheAshMan

Oct 21, 2009, 09:41 AM

Why do you assume it's either one or the other?
Can you say "Mac Mini connected permanently to the TV as a media centre"?
If you can't see that then you're, er, blind.

I agree, also remember another point, if you have some HD content it would be nice to watch it on any screen you have. If Apple doesn't have a Blu-Ray option for my next computer purchase, I will go with a PC. I only want to buy one copy of my movies, and that should be the highest quality for my TV. Everything else should be compatible even if it is no different than a DVD on a small screen. The issue is compatibility!

BTW - We did a test here at work, two identical 12" laptops side by side, one with DVD, one with Blu-Ray of the same movie. The difference with the Blu-Ray disc was noticeable, so anyone that says there is no difference in a smaller screen has not seen them. Is it required for that small a screen, no, but if you want the best...

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 09:41 AM

Er, what's wrong with watching it on a 27" high res screen (that Apple have put into the new iMac)?

It makes me laugh when people say, well wouldn't you want to watch it on your TV. ...WHY!?!?!?!

Cos TV's are bigger? It's all relative to the distance you sit from them. In other words the closer you are the less need there is for a bigger screen.

It's also native 1080p resolution which would require no scaling.

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 09:44 AM

Why do you assume it's either one or the other?
Can you say "Mac Mini connected permanently to the TV as a media centre"?
If you can't see that then you're, er, blind.

Like I've mentioned, I stream 720p and 1080p content to my Xbox 360 to watch on my TV. The computer doing the streaming is a blu-ray free Mac mini.

Maybe I am blind, but I still don't see the need to put a blu-ray drive in my Mac.

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 09:46 AM

That completely ignores the point of Blu-Ray as a high density storage medium. I for one would love to have an optical drive with 50 GB of capacity each, it would great for backups. Watching movies on it would be secondary, but I would really like to be able to do that when I am flying or on a train. Hardly a gimmick. Also for the future, if I have a Blu-Ray in my living room, I would like to be able to watch it on any screen I have and not have to go buy/rent it in DVD version. Also, I see a lot of Blu-Ray movies for $15-20 to buy, plus renting is only $5.

It's been possible to write BD discs on a Mac for quite some time. Toast supports it.

If I had a Minidisc player, I'd like to be able to play the discs anywhere, too. Same if I had betamax content. But it ain't happening. Grrr.... Damned Sony media....

glhiii

Oct 21, 2009, 09:47 AM

TheAshMan

Oct 21, 2009, 09:49 AM

Or how about other DRM crap like CSS for DVDs, or FairPlay for iTunes (pre iTunes-plus)? Hell, OSX itself is one big piece of DRMed crap if you take into account that you can't install it on non-Apple hardware without some hacking around.
So, in your world any thing compatible with DRM is crap? Ok so that excludes Windows, Macs, DVD & Blu-Ray players. And how many people has Apple gone after or sued for installing OS X on non-Apple hardware, other than companies trying to make $$$ off of their intellectual property?

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 09:53 AM

So, in your world any thing compatible with DRM is crap? Ok so that excludes Windows, Macs, DVD & Blu-Ray players. And how many people has Apple gone after or sued for installing OS X on non-Apple hardware, other than companies trying to make $$$ off of their intellectual property?

No, someone else called all DRM crap as an argument against including BR. I was just point out how much of this "DRM Crap" was already in OSX. I don't like DRM, but I don't think anything with it is crap.

TheAshMan

Oct 21, 2009, 09:54 AM

It's been possible to write BD discs on a Mac for quite some time. Toast supports it.
Yes, I am thinking of that one for my iMac, but I want it the be the built-in optical disc for everything so I don't have to buy an external drive. Plus I want it in laptops for viewing movies on the road.

That is a great suggestion though, I had not explored the writing software for Macs using external drives.

bartzilla

Oct 21, 2009, 09:57 AM

Like I've mentioned, I steam 720p and 1080p content to my Xbox 360 to watch on my TV. The computer doing the streaming is a blu-ray free Mac mini.

Maybe I am blind, but I still don't see the need to put a blu-ray drive in my Mac.

Your mac, sure. But you agree that you're not the whole world right?

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 10:03 AM

Your mac, sure. But you agree that you're not the whole world right?

Fair enough. Just sharing my opinion. Also, sorry, misspelled "stream" as "steam".

J&JPolangin

Oct 21, 2009, 10:03 AM

...waiting for Rev B:D

TheAshMan

Oct 21, 2009, 10:06 AM

No, someone else called all DRM crap as an argument against including BR. I was just point out how much of this "DRM Crap" was already in OSX. I don't like DRM, but I don't think anything with it is crap.
I guess I didn't interpret your statement correctly.

I see the point you are making and agree to the point that I don't want DRM in my way for what I am legally entitled to. I guess I have just never had a problem with DRM itself per se. I don't mind paying for something that somebody is selling. Getting a copy of purchased content (thus no transfer of ownership) that is owned by someone else for free is dishonest and is stealing. Stealing is a crime against others even if it doesn't fell like it.

I do however want (and use) the ability to make a copy of my purchased content for personal and "fair use" like copying DVDs I purchased to my iPod. This is provided for in court precedents, though not the law, but interpretation is enough in our system. I know that process is a lot harder with Blu-Ray and concerns me, but the artists and content providers have the right to protect their product. Same as anyone else in a capitalist or free market system.

Cheers!

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 10:20 AM

Yes, I am thinking of that one for my iMac, but I want it the be the built-in optical disc for everything so I don't have to buy an external drive. Plus I want it in laptops for viewing movies on the road.

That is a great suggestion though, I had not explored the writing software for Macs using external drives.

I remember reading about some people having difficulty writing to certain BD-RW drives installed internally in to Mac Pros using Toast. I don't know if that's still true or if the issue has been resolved. If I remember correctly, firewire BD-RW drives worked fine. But double check before making a purchase.

jwt

Oct 21, 2009, 10:43 AM

I don't think Apple has a problem with DRM itself, as others have logically deduced; but what Apple does have a problem with is other people's DRM in their ecosystem. If Apple doesn't control the whole widget, they don't ship it. And that principle seems to extend to their partners as well. I seem to recall that the reason they went with AT&T for their iPhone was because they got them to implement iPhone only/specific tech--Visual Voicemail--and also get very attractive profit sharing. Anyway, after reading some of the links in this thread and knowing how anal Apple is about extensive control of their ecosystem, I am starting to be convinced that they will never adopt BluRay as long as there is kernel-level DRM.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 10:44 AM

I don't think Apple has a problem with DRM itself, as others have logically deduced; but what Apple does have a problem with is other people's DRM in their ecosystem.

They don't seem to have a problem with DVD.

wrldwzrd89

Oct 21, 2009, 10:47 AM

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 10:54 AM

They don't seem to have a problem with DVD.

I could be wrong, but I don't think DVD's DRM hooks as deeply in to the OS as blu-ray.

bartzilla

Oct 21, 2009, 10:59 AM

Perhaps it's time you took a step back and looked at the situation from a fresh angle. Make of this information what you will:

Consumer uptake of Blu-Ray players has been slower than anticipated, both in movies and data storage.
Apple would never give us BD movie capability without BD data too... or vice versa. History tells us this, from Apple's handling of CD and DVD.
Apple does not normally give new hardware features to lower-end models or product lines first. The iMac is NOT top of the line - the Mac Pro IS.
Blu-Ray Movie licensing is still onerous, and is something Apple doesn't like having to deal with. The restrictions Apple would have to implement to get Blu-Ray playback to work properly are against Apple's philosophy, for one thing.

Allow me to retort:

Consumer uptake of Blu-Ray players has been slower than anticipated, both in movies and data storage.

Yes. But it's starting to pick up pace. While its obviously a chicken and egg question, I thought Apple would want to be somewhere towards the front of a movement, not towards the back.,

Apple would never give us BD movie capability without BD data too... or vice versa. History tells us this, from Apple's handling of CD and DVD.

Well yes... but what was your point? I'm not sure how this makes implementing BD impossible for them.

Apple does not normally give new hardware features to lower-end models or product lines first. The iMac is NOT top of the line - the Mac Pro IS.

Well you talked about taking a "fresh angle" on things a while ago and now you're trotting out "It can't be done that way because it wasn't done that way before"? Would you like to withdraw that point?

Either way, the mac pro arguably has a good reason to have BD in it already (assuming we're looking at things from the "fresh angle" of doing things like they've always been done). Also the new 27" very high resolution screen is clearly a big change to the imac line, therefore if we're looking at things from some kind of, I don't know... fresh angle... it would arguably be a great time to break with the old "fresh angle" and add something to the consumer platform first.

Blu-Ray Movie licensing is still onerous, and is something Apple doesn't like having to deal with. The restrictions Apple would have to implement to get Blu-Ray playback to work properly are against Apple's philosophy, for one thing.

Oh you're talking about the film DRM and HDCP stuff that we've already established that Apple are already doing? Again, I'll let you withdraw that point if you like.

Cave Man

Oct 21, 2009, 11:09 AM

Oh you mean the DRM that is (or at least was) built into itunes movies (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2008/11/apple-brings-hdcp-to-a-new-aluminum-macbook-near-you.ars)?

DRM in general is not the issue. DRM of Blu-ray is the issue. The licensing terms of Blu-ray Disc playback are far more intrusive in the OS than any other form of DRM. For example, when you insert a DVD there is a DRM check only once - when the disc is inserted. With Blu-ray, that checking is done every few seconds. With DVDs the content is decrypted as it's read from the disc and then no more is needed. With Blu-ray, decrypted content cannot exist anywhere where the user has access to it (e.g., RAM, hard drive, video-out lines, etc.). This requires lots of resources at the kernel level of the OS and was incorporated into the Blu-ray standard at the insistence of studios because of how easily DVD protection was circumvented. This comes from the studios, no one else.

Either way I think my point still stands. All the emo whining about how the mac must never become polluted by DRM is not so much fiddling while Rome burns as it is dancing on the embers after the fire died out.

Again, it's not about DRM in general - it's about Blu-ray DRM.

Someone needs to grab the studios by the neck and slap them silly. Their Blu-ray DRM has already been defeated, so insisting that computers have it is really pointless. Until they relax those requirements, I doubt we see native Blu-ray support for OS X anytime soon. And I'll continue to rip my Blu-ray discs for playback on my Mac with Plex.

barkomatic

Oct 21, 2009, 11:55 AM

I would stop complaining about Blu-ray if Apple would just come out and say, "We don't believe in Blu-ray technology and do not plan to include it in any of our product lines ever". Fine, decision made, done.

However, they have made no such statement, only the vague "bag of hurt" comment Steve Jobs made ages ago which is more of a complaint than a statement. As I recall, he indicated that Apple wasn't ready to include "Blu-ray" *then* but implied that in the future they might.

The future is now and Apple needs to decide one way or the other.

jamesryanbell

Oct 21, 2009, 12:03 PM

Sorry, but I had to quote a friend of mine from this morning who is ordering an iMac 27" Quad-Core.

"About the whole Blu-Ray thing - Apple knows what the best technologies are, what's sticking around for the long-haul, and what users need and don't need. If Apple doesn't put it on there, then you gotta trust their knowledge on it. Their decisions are always the right ones, and that's why they've made so much money. If they say I don't need it, then I don't need it."

I snickered.

He's the biggest fan-boy I've ever met in my life.

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 12:23 PM

My understanding of this issue is that a person would still be able to easily rip a DVD on a Blu-ray equipped mac but not be able to easily rip a blu-ray.

Your understanding is wrong. There are plenty of ways to rip BluRay disks on a Mac - I do it every day.

ob81

Oct 21, 2009, 12:25 PM

I've seen a few people make this comment, but I don't understand it. I know that a lot of people enjoy watching movies on their computer (I'm one of them, but I have several friends that do too). What's the issue with watching movies on a computer? :confused:

Edit: More to the point, if you want support then send feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/dvdplayer.html) to Apple. I just have, and if enough people do then hopefully Apple will start paying attention.

The movies run about $40 a pop. You aren't even getting the full blu-ray experience watching a movie on a "15-30ish" screen. 1080p is best experienced on a 42" and above TV, sitting about 6'-8' away. You aren't getting this on a computer. The day I pay $40 for a movie to watch it on a computer screen, when i could rent it for $3.99 will never come.

The only thing I agree with in the Blu-ray on a computer concept, is the fact that everyone should have the option if they wanted it. Windows has the option, but a lot of people here don't want windows. There should be a Mac option.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 12:28 PM

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 12:45 PM

DRM in general is not the issue. DRM of Blu-ray is the issue. The licensing terms of Blu-ray Disc playback are far more intrusive in the OS than any other form of DRM. For example, when you insert a DVD there is a DRM check only once - when the disc is inserted. With Blu-ray, that checking is done every few seconds. With DVDs the content is decrypted as it's read from the disc and then no more is needed. With Blu-ray, decrypted content cannot exist anywhere where the user has access to it (e.g., RAM, hard drive, video-out lines, etc.). This requires lots of resources at the kernel level of the OS and was incorporated into the Blu-ray standard at the insistence of studios because of how easily DVD protection was circumvented.

What he said. Of course some DRM is inevitable and we have to live with it. That's not the issue here. The issue is the the more draconian forms of DRM, of the likes of CableLabs CableCard tuners and yes Blu-Ray.

Anything that requires an OS to create a fully protected path is getting too deep and starting to thread into dangerous territory. So yes I completely understand Apple's hesitance to go down that road.

If I have to choose between the ability to play BD movies on my computer and an open and stable MacOS - guess what.. BD playback loses every time.

msmth928

Oct 21, 2009, 12:45 PM

1080p is best experienced on a 42" and above TV, sitting about 6'-8' away.

WRONG. The smaller the screen the closer you need to sit - so big screens don't mean jack when you consider most people have their monitors on a desk (I.e. pretty damn close). So it's actually perfectly acceptable to watch BRs on a computer screen, esp the new 1080p ones in the new iMacs.

If YOU don't want to watch them on your computer, fine - but don't try to give us that rubbish of HD content should only be viewed on big screens, because it's nonsense.

bruinsrme

Oct 21, 2009, 12:50 PM

Well I feel for the people wanting blu-ray in their mac.
We are a dell house and the laptops and boxes all have blu-ray.
To us it is a welcomed addition as I can buy 1 version of the movie which can be played in any room on any TV or computer.
Having it on the laptops is great. My son uses his laptop as his bluray player in his apartment on his 1080p plasma or on the train when he comes home from school.
As others said, sometimes you just want to watch a movie on the computer. A 21, 24, or 27 inch screen is plenty big enough to enjoy a blue ray on,
Bag of hurt, why that is I am not sure, other than your Steve said it. I am sure if he said it was a box of roses many of the same opinions would be applauding bluray. Perhaps Apple feels giving their customers more choices may confuse them,
In the end mac uses are missing out on taking advange of their displays.

bruinsrme

Oct 21, 2009, 01:00 PM

The movies run about $40 a pop. You aren't even getting the full blu-ray experience watching a movie on a "15-30ish" screen. 1080p is best experienced on a 42" and above TV, sitting about 6'-8' away. You aren't getting this on a computer. The day I pay $40 for a movie to watch it on a computer screen, when i could rent it for $3.99 will never come.

Wrong 1080p was for 50" (elite sets) and above based on resoultion of the video processors. 42" and below were not intended to be 1080p but their was an opportunity for manufacturers to sell more sets while offering different price points across the different sizes of screens. Surely win for consumers who wanted 1080p for smaller sets and a huge win for resellers and manufacturers to be able to have a small premium for the higher resolution.

Who is paying $40 for a movie? obviously lousy shoppers. There are so many very good deals on the web and in stores, many at or below dvd prices. The most expensive blu ray movie I have purchased has been under $25.

Cave Man

Oct 21, 2009, 01:18 PM

Bag of hurt, why that is I am not sure, other than your Steve said it. I am sure if he said it was a box of roses many of the same opinions would be applauding bluray. Perhaps Apple feels giving their customers more choices may confuse them

Perhaps you should take the time to read the entire thread.

jaw04005

Oct 21, 2009, 01:19 PM

Blu-Ray on a computer is a gimmick anyway. If you want to burn blu-ray for some weird reason, get an external drive. Watching $40 movies on a computer screen? NO THANKS.

I’m sure you felt the same way in 1999 when DVD was introduced to the iMac G3 line with its 15” CRT monitor, correct?

msmth928

Oct 21, 2009, 01:30 PM

Perhaps you should take the time to read the entire thread.

Why? Because of DRM? It's completely acceptable to want to add protection!! It's Apple being difficult, not Hollywood.

If you look at it logically, it probably boils down to two things:

Want to push Apple's own download service
Make as much money per SKU as possible (ala ipod's actual manufacturing cost vs cost to the end user!)

I don't mind companies making money, but trying to screw every last penny out of your customers, and trying to make their decisions for them is not on.

I hope Google's OS gives OSX a run for its money - Apple have got too big-headed and greedy.

wrldwzrd89

Oct 21, 2009, 01:34 PM

Allow me to retort:

Consumer uptake of Blu-Ray players has been slower than anticipated, both in movies and data storage.

Yes. But it's starting to pick up pace. While its obviously a chicken and egg question, I thought Apple would want to be somewhere towards the front of a movement, not towards the back.,

Apple would never give us BD movie capability without BD data too... or vice versa. History tells us this, from Apple's handling of CD and DVD.

Well yes... but what was your point? I'm not sure how this makes implementing BD impossible for them.

Apple does not normally give new hardware features to lower-end models or product lines first. The iMac is NOT top of the line - the Mac Pro IS.

Well you talked about taking a "fresh angle" on things a while ago and now you're trotting out "It can't be done that way because it wasn't done that way before"? Would you like to withdraw that point?

Either way, the mac pro arguably has a good reason to have BD in it already (assuming we're looking at things from the "fresh angle" of doing things like they've always been done). Also the new 27" very high resolution screen is clearly a big change to the imac line, therefore if we're looking at things from some kind of, I don't know... fresh angle... it would arguably be a great time to break with the old "fresh angle" and add something to the consumer platform first.

Blu-Ray Movie licensing is still onerous, and is something Apple doesn't like having to deal with. The restrictions Apple would have to implement to get Blu-Ray playback to work properly are against Apple's philosophy, for one thing.

Oh you're talking about the film DRM and HDCP stuff that we've already established that Apple are already doing? Again, I'll let you withdraw that point if you like.
You make very good counter-points. However, that doesn't change my opinion about Blu-Ray... I'm only interested in it for data storage purposes. I'd much rather Apple included BD-Data only NOW, since I'd never use the movie functionality. It seems like an odd choice, but it'll at least make some people happy, right?

bruinsrme

Oct 21, 2009, 01:40 PM

Perhaps you should take the time to read the entire thread.

Why bother, many complain the about the DRM, some about the cost of the hardware, and some about the cost of the media.

I haven't bothered ripping blurays, the hardware about $125 more and the media can be found at reasonable prices.

If you want to rip to make precious "back ups", sure I can see the pain in the ass with that.

if you want to watch a movie on a 27 inch screen popping in a bluray with all its DRM crap surely can't be that hard to incorporate for the users.

I am off to watch Transformers bluray on my bag of hurt XPS while my exhaust system gets fixed, enjoy

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 01:58 PM

If you want to rip to make precious "back ups", sure I can see the pain in the ass with that.

Some of us also like to rip movies for the Media servers to have instant choice of movies at our fingertips.. Simultaneously playable in multiple rooms.. While you shuffle around your optical disks like it's 1994.

I am off to watch Transformers bluray on my bag of hurt XPS while my exhaust system gets fixed, enjoy

Good luck with that. PowerDVD on Windows is such a great and stable product.. Last I tried it, it couldn't get through a HD movie without freezing or major audio issues. Maybe it was my fault for not investing $3000 in "Vista Bluray" compatible hardware.. or the stars weren't aligned properly, I don't know.

Cave Man

Oct 21, 2009, 02:05 PM

Why?

Because he apparently has no idea why Jobs is opposed to Blu-ray support.

Why bother,

Because then you might understand what Jobs is opposed to Blu-ray support. You don't have to agree with it, but surely you can see Apple's point, considering that Blu-ray software has to be included in the kernel.

barkomatic

Oct 21, 2009, 02:08 PM

Your understanding is wrong. There are plenty of ways to rip BluRay disks on a Mac - I do it every day.

Even better, then there truly is no valid reason for excluding built in blu-ray drives.

Cave Man

Oct 21, 2009, 02:19 PM

Good luck with that. PowerDVD on Windows is such a great and stable product.. Last I tried it, it couldn't get through a HD movie without freezing or major audio issues. Maybe it was my fault for not investing $3000 in "Vista Bluray" compatible hardware.. or the stars weren't aligned properly, I don't know.

The one - and only - time I did a Blu-ray disc playback with PowerDVD under Windows it was a near nightmare. This was using my MacBook Pro under Boot Camp connected to my Samsung TV by DVI to HDMI cable and optical cable, and my USB2 Sony Blu-Ray drive. After putting the disc in it started playing (after about a minute) on my MacBook's screen, not the TV. Then I had go on the web to find out I had to set the output to my TV by drilling about down 10 semi-ambiguos nVidia screens. So I did that and got another error message about having two displays active, which is apparently against the Blu-Ray Rules. Back to the net and I discovered I had to disable the MBP's display. So I go to the Control Panels and drill down those 10 nVidia screens to finally find where that was done.

So now my MBP's display is off and my TV shows the Blu-ray Disc menu. I choose the movie and it starts playing. Oops! I forgot to turn the volume up. Wait, no that's not it, the volume is fine. So then I had to go through the sound Control Panel to fiddle with it and finally got it working (I still have no idea what I did). After that it played just fine. So the movie ends and I quit Power DVD, then went back through all the nVidia screens AGAIN to get my MBP display working.

What a pain in the @$$. :mad:

Setting up a rip takes less time, plus I don't have to insert disks to change movies. It's all served up from my computer to Plex, even over the network to other computers in the house.

jaw04005

Oct 21, 2009, 02:25 PM

Good luck with that. PowerDVD on Windows is such a great and stable product.. Last I tried it, it couldn't get through a HD movie without freezing or major audio issues. Maybe it was my fault for not investing $3000 in "Vista Bluray" compatible hardware.. or the stars weren't aligned properly, I don't know.

PowerDVD is horrible. But it was horrible when it only played DVD discs too. DVD playback was horrible on Windows until Microsoft finally shipped a MPEG-2 decoder in Windows Vista. While on the Mac side, we’ve had DVD player (a stable and easy to use application) since 1999.

There’s nothing preventing Apple from releasing DVD Player with Blu-ray support.

I don’t see why licensing requirements for Blu-ray couldn’t be self-contained within DVD Player just like HDCP is self-contained within iTunes.

What gets me is Apple is a major player in the Blu-ray standard and has sat on their board of directors since 2005. If anyone is able to persuade the consortium, its Apple. Not to mention, Steve Jobs also has another theoretical seat on the board with his shareholder/board power over at Disney.

If Apple wanted more favorable Blu-ray licensing, they could get it. I personally think they’re waiting on cheaper slot-loading BD-R drives so they can rev DVD Studio Pro and iDVD in the process.

Speaking of Disney, why aren’t their animated classics like Snow White on the iTunes Store? They are on Netflix’s instant streaming and Microsoft’s XBOX Live Marketplace. They should be available in HD to own and rent on the iTunes Store. There’s no excuse.

cube

Oct 21, 2009, 02:26 PM

Setting up a rip takes less time, plus I don't have to insert disks to change movies. It's all served up from my computer to Plex, even over the network to other computers in the house.

What about BD-Live?

Porco

Oct 21, 2009, 02:46 PM

re the kernel DRM stuff, because it's the best, most coherent argument against Blu-ray on the mac (in my opinion the only possible valid, sensible reason for Blu-ray to not be an option by now ):

If Apple wanted to add Blu-ray they would find a way. They're supposed to be the big innovative computer company that comes up with elegant solutions that others can't manage so nicely. There must be a way around it all that suits everyone.

Feel free to shoot holes in this, but couldn't they run some kind of sandboxed VM layer that restricts any content leaving that layer/sandbox? To the Blu-ray disc, it'd be accessing the lowest-level of the system, and the actual OS X kernel could oversee that, whilst not letting the Blu-ray DRM to even be aware of how that was working. Surely that kind of set-up could be made in such a way that it satisfied the DRM requirements as well as Apple? Kind of thing?

Has anyone tried playing a Blu-ray in a Windows VM? does that work? If so, it would seem that some kind of sandboxed VM for Blu-ray must be possible.

Those nice new LED-lit iMac screens just seem such a waste without proper, legit commercial content (i.e generously compressed 1080p content via BDs) to use them to their full potential. I'd be willing to bet that they'll be obsolete machines before everyone can download 1080p of a similar quality from iTunes or the like.

bartzilla

Oct 21, 2009, 02:53 PM

DRM in general is not the issue. DRM of Blu-ray is the issue.

Again: Oh you mean things like HDCP, which apple have already implemented?

I think Apple's only problem with blu ray is that they can't figure out a way to spin it as "iBlu" and claim it was invented by Apple.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 02:57 PM

Has anyone tried playing a Blu-ray in a Windows VM? does that work? If so, it would seem that some kind of sandboxed VM for Blu-ray must be possible.

From what I understand, it doesn't work because the guest OS playing the Blu Ray needs direct access to the GPU which Parallels and VM ware don't allow, but this seems like more of a software limitation with Parallels and VM, not virtualization itself

msmth928

Oct 21, 2009, 03:00 PM

Because he apparently has no idea why Jobs is opposed to Blu-ray support.

And why is that, exactly. Please provide links to interviews/sources as to the exact reasons why Jobs/apple are opposed to BR support. (I.e. let's hear it from the horses mouth - not internet fud/marketing/nonsense.)

You won't find any, because there is no reasonable reason why it shouldn't be included - and Apple know it!

All that crap about DRM/Kernel is just that, crap. As I've said a million times, it doesn't compromise security of the system no matter how good or bad their DRM encryption is (because it'll only effect BR playback, nothing more, nothing less).

optophobia

Oct 21, 2009, 03:03 PM

I'm really beginning to despise Apple.

Oh how the new iMacs are so cool with 1080p display YET THEY DON'T HAVE A BLU RAY DRIVE! :rolleyes:

It's not about blu ray drives being expensive it's about Apple wanting to push their inferior download service on us. Argh!

Apple = bag of hurt.

/Rant over.

Anyone else feel the same?

Personally I am GLAD Blue Ray is not included. Firstly becuase all the whiners didn't get what they wanted. Secondly who uses discs anymore anyway. I used my 1 year old MBPs dvd drive for the second time the other day only to find it not working. It could have not been working for a year !

msmth928

Oct 21, 2009, 03:10 PM

Personally I am GLAD Blue Ray is not included. Firstly becuase all the whiners didn't get what they wanted. Secondly who uses discs anymore anyway. I used my 1 year old MBPs dvd drive for the second time the other day only to find it not working. It could have not been working for a year !

I'm very happy for you! ;)

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 03:18 PM

And why is that, exactly. Please provide links to interviews/sources as to the exact reasons why Jobs/apple are opposed to BR support. (I.e. let's hear it from the horses mouth - not internet fud/marketing/nonsense.)

You won't find any, because there is no reasonable reason why it shouldn't be included - and Apple know it!

All that crap about DRM/Kernel is just that, crap. As I've said a million times, it doesn't compromise security of the system no matter how good or bad their DRM encryption is (because it'll only effect BR playback, nothing more, nothing less).

King Steve said Blu Ray was a "bag of hurt." The only one who will be a bag of hurt is Apple if they continue to lag behind their competition by not offering Blu Ray.

Personally I am GLAD Blue Ray is not included. Firstly becuase all the whiners didn't get what they wanted. Secondly who uses discs anymore anyway. I used my 1 year old MBPs dvd drive for the second time the other day only to find it not working. It could have not been working for a year !

Good for you. Some of us do use discs and want Blu Ray support. Just because you don't use something doesn't mean no one else does. Apple doesn't design their hardware around your needs.

brendu

Oct 21, 2009, 03:18 PM

i want to know how many people who have blu ray in their laptops actually use it more than half a dozen times... imo its just not worth it for everyone, but a BTO option should apear soon... ive seen the question raised before that macs (excluding the mac pro) may be too thin to include blu ray drives right now. when they can slim them down maybe then apple will include them... but steve is not going to compromise the design of his products to include something he doesnt want you using anyways.

EDIT: and to those who are saying the decision to leave it out will be a "bag of hurt for apple" or that it will negatively affect apple's sales... have you looked at their figures lately?

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 03:21 PM

i want to know how many people who have blu ray in their laptops actually use it more than half a dozen times... imo its just not worth it for everyone, but a BTO option should apear soon... ive seen the question raised before that macs (excluding the mac pro) may be too thin to include blu ray drives right now. when they can slim them down maybe then apple will include them... but steve is not going to compromise the design of his products to include something he doesnt want you using anyways.

Steve probably doesn't want people using Macs to spread rumors about upcoming Apple products either, perhaps MacRumors and Apple Insider should be blocked in the next version of Safari. I sure am glad Steve knows what's best for me.

bruinsrme

Oct 21, 2009, 03:38 PM

Some of us also like to rip movies for the Media servers to have instant choice of movies at our fingertips.. Simultaneously playable in multiple rooms.. While you shuffle around your optical disks like it's 1994.

Good luck with that. PowerDVD on Windows is such a great and stable product.. Last I tried it, it couldn't get through a HD movie without freezing or major audio issues. Maybe it was my fault for not investing $3000 in "Vista Bluray" compatible hardware.. or the stars weren't aligned properly, I don't know.
$3000 who spent that, I didn't by a mac.
Media server sure you win.
I have been running a dual boot dos with vista and win7. After watch well over 30 movies I only had one crash while watching a movie. It ended up being a bad print.
Oh wait what am i'm saying. Please allow me to correct myself, I have never been able to get thru a full movie because of f'in windows or some other program keeps crashing or I have some virus or Trojan attack.

Say what you will those of us with real media servers aren't downloading from iTunes either. Most likely with my group someone or someone are is a member of netflix. The rest have multiple portable drives. Not all because there seems to be a large population herr that don't which I take my hat off to.

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 03:45 PM

cube

Oct 21, 2009, 03:49 PM

I just found out that apple has ruined region free for VLC, etc. so I wouldn't be surprised if official BD support ruined the computer even more.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 03:58 PM

Look, the iMacs support video input now. Why don't you guys just pick up a standalone blu-ray player and connect it to that port? It probably won't be far off from what Apple will charge you for a BTO built-in BD drive anyway. Sit on your office chair at your desk and enjoy that HD movie.

No, video input only does Display Port in, and no Blu Ray players to my knowledge output in DP (since HDMI is for home theater and DP is for computers).

pastrychef

Oct 21, 2009, 04:04 PM

No, video input only does Display Port in, and no Blu Ray players to my knowledge output in DP (since HDMI is for home theater and DP is for computers).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001S2PYQY

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 04:15 PM

King Steve said Blu Ray was a "bag of hurt." The only one who will be a bag of hurt is Apple if they continue to lag behind their competition by not offering Blu Ray.

Oh yeah.. Apple has REALLY been hurting lately.. they only posted their best ever Quarterly results with $1.67B in profits (mostly attributed to Mac sales).. with their share projected to shoot above $300.. Must be because of all that lack of BluRay offering.. :rolleyes:

Good for you. Some of us do use discs and want Blu Ray support. Just because you don't use something doesn't mean no one else does. Apple doesn't design their hardware around your needs.

Nor do they design the hardware around your wants and wishes. I am sure when the critical mass of Apple customers demands BD support - Apple will do what it can to offer it. But that time hasn't arrived, and may be never will.

yg17

Oct 21, 2009, 04:16 PM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001S2PYQY

DisplayPort can be converted to HDMI with a passive adapter like that, but going the other way around requires a $200 active adapter.

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 04:25 PM

All that crap about DRM/Kernel is just that, crap. As I've said a million times, it doesn't compromise security of the system no matter how good or bad their DRM encryption is (because it'll only effect BR playback, nothing more, nothing less).

Who cares what you said a million times. Are you an Apple developer intricately familiar with MacOS kernel architecture? And do you understand what it would involve to support fully protected path within the OS kernel, as required by BD license? Unless the answer to both of those is "yes", what you think on this subject means absolutely zero.

atticus18244fsa

Oct 21, 2009, 04:30 PM

You Pro-Blu Ray guys are so ridiculously whiny. It's insane.

msmth928

Oct 21, 2009, 04:42 PM

Porco

Oct 21, 2009, 04:45 PM

You Pro-Blu Ray guys are so ridiculously whiny. It's insane.

Though possibly not quite so insane as people moaning about the moaning. At least our moaning is directed towards something that is on topic, instead of just moaning about other people moaning.*

*I realise I am now moaning about the moaning about the moaning. So I'll stop right here. :p

bruinsrme

Oct 21, 2009, 04:49 PM

You Pro-Blu Ray guys are so ridiculously whiny. It's insane.

Perhaps. Or just not understanding why bluray wouldn't be incorporated or at the very least offered.
Someone said it has to do with the kernel. Is apple hiring second rate programmers?

I really think mac users are missing out.

What kind if sound cards/processors are in the macs? What sound formats do they support? Perhaps it is more about apple paying the licensing fees for the Dolby, dts, and thx that us the real issue. Hdmi lowered their licensing fees but I wonder if the others are just too high.

Porco

Oct 21, 2009, 04:59 PM

Oh yeah.. Apple has REALLY been hurting lately.. they only posted their best ever Quarterly results with $1.67B in profits (mostly attributed to Mac sales).. with their share projected to shoot above $300.. Must be because of all that lack of BluRay offering.. :rolleyes:

That's not really a very good argument though - we don't know how much better still (or indeed worse, if that's your position) Apple would have done with their results if they'd been offering an option to buy Blu-ray drives in the macs with full movie playback support in OS X.

I think there's a good chance that they'd have sold even more, to people who wanted that option. On the other hand, I can't personally see how merely having the option would have stopped many people from buying the mac they bought anyway, especially if this apparently necessarily horrible kernel-invading software was also purely optional software that only people with Blu-ray drives had to (or indeed could) install.

We know from this forum that there are numerous people who'd like the option for Blu-ray, and I think it is fair to surmise a decent number of them would have purchased some machines that as things stand, haven't been. So is there anyone who bought a mac recently who would really have said "you know what? If Apple offered Blu-ray support, I wouldn't have bought my new mac! Purely on principle!"?

It just doesn't seem very likely to me that Blu-ray support as an option would have done anything other than improve sales of the mac. But we'll never know, will we?

hitekalex

Oct 21, 2009, 05:04 PM

Unfortunately most of them coming from ipod users - which let's face it don't know their arse from their elbows. Ipod sound quality is ***** compared to dedicated DAPs like Sony Walkmans, you wouldn't catch an audiophile seen dead with one!

Wha?? Most of what coming from iPod users, Apple revenues? Wrong once again - the latest Apple profits are attributed to record Mac sales (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/strong-iphone-mac-help-apples-earnings-rise-46-2009-10-19).. so I guess all these millions of new Mac users are somehow happy without BluRay drives.

I won't even bother with your last nonsensical comment about iPod users not being "audiophiles".

Icaras

Oct 21, 2009, 05:23 PM

The movies run about $40 a pop. You aren't even getting the full blu-ray experience watching a movie on a "15-30ish" screen. 1080p is best experienced on a 42" and above TV, sitting about 6'-8' away. You aren't getting this on a computer. The day I pay $40 for a movie to watch it on a computer screen, when i could rent it for $3.99 will never come.

The only thing I agree with in the Blu-ray on a computer concept, is the fact that everyone should have the option if they wanted it. Windows has the option, but a lot of people here don't want windows. There should be a Mac option.

Amazing. 5 pages in already and this guy is still full of fail. Get the $40 hoax out of your ass and please try and catch up with the rest of the human race? Now go on to Amazon right now and fetch us a $40 blu-ray disc please so you may humor us all.

Secondly, why couldn't sitting in front of a 27" computer display 2'-3' away, be compared relatively to sitting 6'-8' away from a 42" TV? Or unless you sit "in front of the computer" 6'-8' away as well? :confused:

Secondly who uses discs anymore anyway.

Um....yea, I use discs.

bruinsrme

Oct 21, 2009, 07:46 PM

Because he apparently has no idea why Jobs is opposed to Blu-ray support.

Because then you might understand what Jobs is opposed to Blu-ray support. You don't have to agree with it, but surely you can see Apple's point, considering that Blu-ray software has to be included in the kernel.

Licensing fees aside.

Are you suggesting that the kernel has reached its limitations in the expansion of newer technologies, DRM or things we may see in the future or Apple feels it will open the door for a security hole or is apple just not able to incorporate such a change in the kernel without a major re-write?

I really think its nice having the bluray option. If I had an imac I would hope to have a bluray player.

But to be fair in this argument the Dell XPS all in one does not have a bluray player option either.opps scratch that the new 24 XPS one and the Studio 19 must have just updated because last week neither had bluray as I recall.

msmth928

Oct 22, 2009, 12:33 AM

Wha?? Most of what coming from iPod users, Apple revenues? Wrong once again - the latest Apple profits are attributed to record Mac sales (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/strong-iphone-mac-help-apples-earnings-rise-46-2009-10-19).. so I guess all these millions of new Mac users are somehow happy without BluRay drives.

I won't even bother with your last nonsensical comment about iPod users not being "audiophiles".

Yes, Mac sales from iPod owners - i.e. non-traditional Mac users.

Bother with my comment about iPod sound quality or not - fact is an audiophile, or anyone serious about music and sound quality wouldn't touch one with a bargepole for their main DAP.

maclook

Oct 22, 2009, 01:01 AM

do 3rd parties sell blu ray drives for the iMac or is it unsupported by OSX??

Michael CM1

Oct 22, 2009, 01:04 AM

It seems to me that Blu-Ray is already obsolescent, as connections to the internet are getting faster and faster and it makes much more sense to download a HD movie than to go to Costco, shell out $15, take the disk home, and watch it once or twice. In any case, I don't see that many Blu-ray movies out there; there are many more DVD's. BR players have come down to under $200 -- I was thinking of buying one, but then wondered what I will do with it. My own opinion is that Apple is correct in not investing the money to develop BR and in not charging people for a BR device most of them will never use. The one use that might prove worthwhile is to transfer data -- it's very handy to put something on a $.75 recordable DVD and send it. If recordable BR disks come down to a dollar or less, then it might be worth getting a BR drive.

Woooooooooooooooooow. I mean really, woooooooooooooooow.

First, maybe connections are getting faster, but the prices aren't exactly dropping. It costs me $35/month for a 3Mbps connection. It streams Netflix stuff in "HD" OK, but sometimes it has to catch up. As for downloading an "HD" video, it would probably take me less time to drive 15 minutes to Target or Best Buy an come back with a BD, not to mention the 4GB of storage space it uses up.

As far as the dumbest comment ever made concerning BDs vs. DVDs for sale, DVD HAS BEEN AROUND FOR 12 YEARS!!!!!!!! Anything and everything put on video will be on a DVD. BD is just now getting past the point of early adopters. It's catching on faster than DVD at the same point in its lifespan.

Now let me explain two things: First, just because a video is 720 pixels tall does not mean it is equal to all other video that is 720 pixels tall. You want proof? Take a home movie from VHS, rip it to your computer, then enlarge it to 720 pixels tall. Not the same quality as even an iTunes HD download, is it? Now go find some compressed 1080p video and compare it to 1080p video from a BD. It's not close. The compressed digital file isn't bad by any means, but 1080p BD is the gold standard.

The other thing: People on here have got to figure out that this clique of "I never use my optical drive so they're dead" posters is a severe minority compared to the general population. Do you see all of those CDs, DVDs and BDs on the shelves at Wal-Mart, Target and Best Buy? Do any of them look like dying media? iTunes took over as the top music selling site in the US in 2008. Most everybody else in the top whatever does their sales primarily through CDs, although Amazon is gaining in MP3 popularity. MOST PEOPLE BUY MUSIC ON CD. An even more extreme number buy movies on DVD versus iTunes, Amazon, etc. digitally. The same is true for BD. Just because you have this fantasy world without optical discs doesn't mean you are even close to a majority of users.

powerbook911

Oct 22, 2009, 02:35 AM

I think it's a shame Blu ray didn't show up, since there was rumors it would appear. This scares me because: it may show up on a next revision some months down the line.

A bit frustrating because mentally it's a significant feature, and I don't know if I want to be stuck with the version without it, even if my use for it would be limited.

ob81

Oct 22, 2009, 03:20 AM

Amazing. 5 pages in already and this guy is still full of fail. Get the $40 hoax out of your ass and please try and catch up with the rest of the human race? Now go on to Amazon right now and fetch us a $40 blu-ray disc please so you may humor us all.

Secondly, why couldn't sitting in front of a 27" computer display 2'-3' away, be compared relatively to sitting 6'-8' away from a 42" TV? Or unless you sit "in front of the computer" 6'-8' away as well? :confused:

I see your position, but you clearly haven't researched exactly what 1080p does for a viewer, or how the size of the TV and the range from the television plays a HUGE part in viewing experience. If you had, you would not be here making a point for a computer screen. 27" was introduced a day ago. 13" and 15" are the most popular Apple sizes offered. Let's narrow the variables to make your point valid though.

On the other hand, I have to admit that I am being narrow-minded myself. I am thinking from a group aspect, as I have to make decisions that have to benefit more than myself. If I get a 15" laptop and tell my family that we will watch blu-ray on it, that wouldn't work. There are people out there that want to watch 1080p on their macbook with their Bose series 3 sound system hooked up (PIMP). I am with you. Yeah! Get us Blu-ray Apple!! :rolleyes:

darthkarl

Oct 22, 2009, 06:13 AM

This scares me because: it may show up on a next revision some months down the line.

I feel the same way, that's why I'm sitting on my wallet until Apple includes a BR drive on the 27" iMac. Otherwise I would have pulled the trigger on Tuesday and bought one.

Icaras

Oct 22, 2009, 06:21 AM

I see your position, but you clearly haven't researched exactly what 1080p does for a viewer, or how the size of the TV and the range from the television plays a HUGE part in viewing experience. If you had, you would not be here making a point for a computer screen. 27" was introduced a day ago. 13" and 15" are the most popular Apple sizes offered. Let's narrow the variables to make your point valid though.:

But I do understand that there is an important relationship between the size of your TV or display versus the range in which you sit from it, and I'm quite aware of the diminishing effect of 1080p in smaller sub 40" displays in the confines of a typical living room.

That said, I am a little puzzled as why you claim I don't understand this argument and that I haven't not done my "research". All I did was simply ask you to elaborate on how this relationship of viewing distance vs. screen size affects the viewer sitting in front of a 27" iMac. Anyway, I'll ask again: Is the experience of sitting in front of the 27" iMac not similar to sitting away from a 42"+ big screen TV?

Which is what I, the OP, and others here have been trying to essentially drive at: you are sitting CLOSER to a display that is SMALLER, which to me, would logically suggest that you retain that relationship and thus, one could appreciate 1080p effectively.

I cannot think of any more simpler or more narrow way to simplify the variables to make it as comprehensible as it already is. :confused:

Oh and I'm still waiting for that $40 blu-ray.

spcdust

Oct 22, 2009, 06:34 AM

I feel the same way, that's why I'm sitting on my wallet until Apple includes a BR drive on the 27" iMac. Otherwise I would have pulled the trigger on Tuesday and bought one.

I'm loathed to say this but I'm with you on this. The new screen size of 27", 16:9 aspect ratio and a decent HD resolution all seem to make the inclusion of Blu-ray an obvious next move.

I really wanted to buy this iMac as, to be fair to Apple, it's a decent revision. HOWEVER I can't help thinking the inclusion of a Blu-ray BTO option isn't that far away. Maybe Apple want to get the initial Snow Leopard bugs ironed out before they do an update to allow Blu-ray to work in OSX? Also, from a marketing perspective, I wouldn't be surprised that on the next Apple Pro updates Blu-ray is offered as an option with the rest of the range following either very soon afterwards or possibly simultaneously.

Can't believe it but if I can resist I'll sit this revision out and maybe come Spring 2010 we'll also get an improved GPU in the 27 inch monitor. I appreciate there probably wasn't an alternative GPU for Apple to put in at this moment in time but how long has the ATI Radeon HD 4850 card been around - it's got to have been about 16 months or so? That's also a lot of real estate for the it to power - fine for current day usage but looking to the future I would probably want something a bit more current installed or offered as an option.

northy124

Oct 22, 2009, 06:44 AM

Oh and I'm still waiting for that $40 blu-ray.
On Amazon only the boxsets are going into $40+ but at Barnes and Noble (online) on the other hand ;) also in-store some/most sell at MSRP as well :eek:

Depends where you buy I guess so ob81 had a point, kind of :p

cocky jeremy

Oct 22, 2009, 07:21 AM

If you want blu-ray, go buy a damn plasma screen tv. Cheap asses. What good is 1080 HD on 27 inches anyway?!

spcdust

Oct 22, 2009, 07:26 AM

If you want blu-ray, go buy a damn plasma screen tv. Cheap asses. What good is 1080 HD on 27 inches anyway?!

Maybe you should consider this single point.....

Many people may have BR players for their main TV and therefore purchase BR disc films / TV series. Bit of a pain that for an alternative viewing you can't use them on your nice new 27" iMac as it only has a DVD drive.

wrldwzrd89

Oct 22, 2009, 07:31 AM

Maybe you should consider this single point.....

Many people may have BR players for their main TV and therefore purchase BR disc films / TV series. Bit of a pain that for an alternative viewing you can't use them on your nice new 27" iMac as it only has a DVD drive.
Why is that such a big deal? I never got into DVD movie viewing at all, computer or otherwise... if that helps explain my lack of interest in Blu-Ray movies.

To the poster who mentioned plasma TVs: You forget that typical viewing distance for an iMac is a lot less than that for a plasma TV, of ANY size.

jjvdhoef

Oct 22, 2009, 07:36 AM

Bluray is still a bit of a gamble as far as formats go.

In Europe (or the Netherlands an France at least) broadban prices are much lower. For instance, for my cable, phone and internet (50mb/s) I pay 64 euro's.

We don't as many digital distribution options though. HD tvsets are selling well, but blu-ray not really. DVD's are still the bulk of sales. People just don't see the difference. Would I like a bluray drive in my mac? sure. But I can see the business case against it. Especially when you consider the digital distribution platform that is itunes. I would expect an quality hike in the movies offered there sooner than a bluray drive.

yg17

Oct 22, 2009, 07:47 AM

Why is that such a big deal? I never got into DVD movie viewing at all, computer or otherwise... if that helps explain my lack of interest in Blu-Ray movies.

To the poster who mentioned plasma TVs: You forget that typical viewing distance for an iMac is a lot less than that for a plasma TV, of ANY size.

Just because you don't use something doesn't mean others won't.

spcdust

Oct 22, 2009, 08:14 AM

jjvdhoef

Oct 22, 2009, 08:58 AM

The death of Blu-ray as a format has been greatly exaggerated.

The quality of a correctly mastered Blu-ray disc is vastly superior to anything downloaded from the iTunes store.

Blu-ray discs have "enhanced" content.

A lot of the World do not have such fast internet speeds that make downloading of HD content practical.

Call me old fashioned, but many people do still like to have their films in a physical format.

For data storage it's got a huge capacity.

For video editors working in HD Blu-Ray is an obvious addition they would like to see included as an integrated option on Apple computers - the brand of choice for many media creatives.

Never mind the quality of the itunes store, it's still a competitor and gives apple an incentive to not include bluray. Furthermore, quality of a download can be changed.

The enhanced content isn't very appealing, and the subject of a lot of ridicule.

We already have a pretty high quality physical format: DVD. Good enough for most people.

Data storage hasn't caught on. I don't know the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if usage costs are higher than for say a external hard-drive.

Internet speeds in most of the western world are increasing at a dramatic rate. My provider for instance has a goal of 100 mbps for next year.

I don't know if professional video editors need something like bluray.
It might be nice to show something quickly, but I doubt they export to bluray right now.

yg17

Oct 22, 2009, 09:25 AM

Never mind the quality of the itunes store, it's still a competitor and gives apple an incentive to not include bluray. Furthermore, quality of a download can be changed.
To match the quality of Blu Ray, a downloadable HD movie would have to be around 30 gigabytes in size. And Apple would have to raise their prices, possibly beyond what an average Blu Ray costs, for that kind of storage space and bandwidth on their end.

The enhanced content isn't very appealing, and the subject of a lot of ridicule.
Ridicule? I haven't heard that. I like all the extras. If you don't like, don't watch them.

We already have a pretty high quality physical format: DVD. Good enough for most people.
VHS was good enough for most people when DVD came out, but that didn't stop Apple from including DVD when it first came out.

Data storage hasn't caught on. I don't know the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if usage costs are higher than for say a external hard-drive.

Hard drives fail. Optical discs are a lot more reliable and are a good backup solution.

Internet speeds in most of the western world are increasing at a dramatic rate. My provider for instance has a goal of 100 mbps for next year.

Great, and I'm sure along with speed increases will be monthly transfer caps, since that's the route ISPs are taking now.

I don't know if professional video editors need something like bluray.
It might be nice to show something quickly, but I doubt they export to bluray right now.
I'm not a pro video editor, but I'd find it hard to believe that they don't wish they could export their content to Blu Ray to distribute it.

Icaras

Oct 22, 2009, 01:01 PM

On Amazon only the boxsets are going into $40+ but at Barnes and Noble (online) on the other hand ;) also in-store some/most sell at MSRP as well :eek:

Depends where you buy I guess so ob81 had a point, kind of :p

TV series box sets and box sets don't count. I said 'A' blu-ray, as in a singular blu-ray disc release. You ain't going to find any $40 blu-ray disc in any mainstream or popular e-tailer or brick and mortar shops these days. You just won't.

3lutz3toe

Oct 22, 2009, 01:16 PM

AMEN! The wants seem to be endless isn't it? People complain about prices yet they want all of these added extra stuff. We already know that Apple wont cut their prices that much. Adding Blue-Ray as an external drive makes much more sense than internal. Not everyone care or even want a Blue-Ray drive!

Blu-Ray on a computer is a gimmick anyway. If you want to burn blu-ray for some weird reason, get an external drive. Watching $40 movies on a computer screen? NO THANKS.

hitekalex

Oct 22, 2009, 03:19 PM

Yes, Mac sales from iPod owners - i.e. non-traditional Mac users.

You have any proof of that, or did you just pull that out of thin air? In any case, I fail to see how this has any relevance to the discussion of Bluray on Macs.

CharlesPDX

Oct 22, 2009, 03:28 PM

Yes, I am thinking of that one for my iMac, but I want it the be the built-in optical disc for everything so I don't have to buy an external drive. Plus I want it in laptops for viewing movies on the road.

There is an option for this, though it's not for the squeamish. Panasonic makes internal slimline slot-loading Blu-Ray combo and burning drives. $199 for the combo, $369 for the burner. iFixit.com has tear downs of the new iMacs already, so if you don't mind cracking it open (and possibly voiding your warranty) you can have an internal Blu-Ray player or burner in your iMac. I'm guessing it works just as well for Macbook Pros.

Here's the rub: Apple software doesn't support Blu-Ray playback as far as I know, so the easiest solution would be a boot camp installation of Windows. Playback may be possible in a virtual machine (Parallels or Fusion), but considering how much running one already taxes the system I'd go with the dual-boot method. Maybe someone knows of a better solution?

Panasonic Combo Drive: http://tinyurl.com/yz6mzl2
Panasonic Burner Drive: http://tinyurl.com/yly86sn

brendu

Oct 22, 2009, 03:33 PM

Steve probably doesn't want people using Macs to spread rumors about upcoming Apple products either, perhaps MacRumors and Apple Insider should be blocked in the next version of Safari. I sure am glad Steve knows what's best for me.

I agree, im not saying steve knows whats best for everyone, especially the more technical users, but lets be honest... the guy knows how to make and market a product and their current sales figures show that... but i still want to know, how many of you that have blu ray players in your computers and especially laptops use them enough times to justify the added cost... im not saying one way or another as to whether apple should include them, i just want to know because i honestly dont know, who has one and actually USES it...

Rapmastac1

Oct 22, 2009, 04:05 PM

I'm on the same boat here as I agree there should have been an option for a BluRay "XTreme Drive" or whatever they'll call it. Although I would think the best time to introduce it is when they up the hardware in a year from now (like they usually do).

While I wouldn't want to watch my movies on a screen smaller than 30", if I'm sitting at my desk, it's more of a private affair as I don't have to fire up my PS3 and my 37" HDTV to watch a movie. But I prefer the shorter movies on my Mac.

Ripping BluRay movies to my computer isn't really an option for me now as I don't have near enough HD space on my Mac or my PS3 to store all the movies I would have. I currently have the whole Saw series, the whole Harry Potter series and a few other BD movies and each weighing in around 40GB a movie, that will take up a lot of space.

In the future I want to make a server to store all my media on, and by that time BD drives will be more commonplace, but that would be a Windows powered affair.

barkomatic

Oct 22, 2009, 04:33 PM

I feel the same way, that's why I'm sitting on my wallet until Apple includes a BR drive on the 27" iMac. Otherwise I would have pulled the trigger on Tuesday and bought one.

Adding a blu-ray option is not a significant enough change to warrant waiting for major revisions. This could easily be added in between major updates/redesigns. Whether Apple will ever do it -- who knows?

ob81

Oct 22, 2009, 04:44 PM

But I do understand that there is an important relationship between the size of your TV or display versus the range in which you sit from it, and I'm quite aware of the diminishing effect of 1080p in smaller sub 40" displays in the confines of a typical living room.

That said, I am a little puzzled as why you claim I don't understand this argument and that I haven't not done my "research". All I did was simply ask you to elaborate on how this relationship of viewing distance vs. screen size affects the viewer sitting in front of a 27" iMac. Anyway, I'll ask again: Is the experience of sitting in front of the 27" iMac not similar to sitting away from a 42"+ big screen TV?

Which is what I, the OP, and others here have been trying to essentially drive at: you are sitting CLOSER to a display that is SMALLER, which to me, would logically suggest that you retain that relationship and thus, one could appreciate 1080p effectively.

I cannot think of any more simpler or more narrow way to simplify the variables to make it as comprehensible as it already is. :confused:

Oh and I'm still waiting for that $40 blu-ray.

By narrowing the variables, I was referencing the fact that you keep saying "27"" You don't have a 27", you have a 13". The most popular sizes of Apple products are 13" and 15". You would need to be sitting a whole 2 feet away from your screen to get a glimpse of the benefit of 1080p. Oh wait, if the monitor even supports it.

I expressed my point of view in my last post. What is yours? Your 13" Macbook? I agree that there should be an option for people like you. Why not? Windows has the option. I just think that it is a waste of time.

tron1971

Oct 22, 2009, 04:55 PM

I suspect he means the software that's required for ensuring HDCP (and decryption) compliance.

I agree, I have a blu-ray on my PC, and the trouble to get blu-ray to play is pretty bad. First you need a HDCP monitor, than a HDCP video card, of course a blu-ray player, than you have to purchase a blu-ray software player. Are we done yet?

No, if you want to have HD audio you will need a HDMI soundcard that can output to a receiver to hear HD audio. Right now there are only 2 existing HDMI soundcard that can do this, the Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 (and it's variations) and Auzentech's Xi-Fi Hometheater HD. Each require specific a specific software to play Blu-ray, Asus with ArcSofts Total Media Theater and Auzentechs with Cyberlinks PowerDVD.

Of course there are hacks that already has bypassed all of this "protected" content. Hollywood caused more harm with their DRM to real paying customers.

I can see why Apple wouldn't want to have Blu-ray as a movie player installed on their systems.

In other news, I think the 27-inch iMac looks great, I just have to save some money to pick one up next year! :)

Icaras

Oct 22, 2009, 10:28 PM

By narrowing the variables, I was referencing the fact that you keep saying "27"" You don't have a 27", you have a 13". The most popular sizes of Apple products are 13" and 15". You would need to be sitting a whole 2 feet away from your screen to get a glimpse of the benefit of 1080p. Oh wait, if the monitor even supports it.

I expressed my point of view in my last post. What is yours? Your 13" Macbook? I agree that there should be an option for people like you. Why not? Windows has the option. I just think that it is a waste of time.

Uhh, why are you even bringing in my 13" MBP into this discussion? Never in my posts did I ever imply any demand for blu-ray in Apple's notebook lineup (though I still believe it would be a welcomed BTO option as you can still output elsewhere).

To remind you again, the topic is about blu-ray in the iMac line, more importantly the 27" iMac. The fact that I own a 13" MBP and not a 27" iMac is also irrelevant and the fact you are digging into my signature for a very weak rebuttal tells me you have nothing against the 27" iMac at this point. We're here to talk about blu-ray on the iMac, and not on my Macbook Pro, please for the sake of this discussion.

If you're not going to give a legitimate reponse to why blu-ray on the 27" iMac would not be comparible to blu-ray on a large screen TV, given the respective distances, then stop beating around the bush as it is and at least save yourself from any further humility.

bossxii

Oct 23, 2009, 01:09 AM

I get both sides of the discussion, but personally, the only time I am watching BD discs is on my DLP HDTV, which is much larger than a 21 or 27" screen, not to mention if they are dropping a BD drive in a mac, do it in a Mini, at least that makes sense for a HTC.

Those interested in ripping Bluray's for iPhones seems a bit overkill with the resolution, but if that's the format you own the movie, I get wanting to have em with you, and it would be nice for that. I simply don't get people that want it in the iMac's for the sole purpose of watching a movie there. The sound system sucks, even with externals, it's like going to a new night club and the music is a portable CD player from the 80's... pointless...

BD drives probably go against Apple's game plan to "rent" you HD (which is a joke in itself) from iTunes. The quality of those rentals on a 27" may look decent but basically just qualify above total crap on a 73" screen. Netflix saves the day in the rental game thankfully.

Anyhow Bluray will show up eventually when Apple feel's it's cheap and easy to install and that it won't take away from it's iTunes movie biz. Considering they look at a CPU speed bump and quad core bump some amazing new release, they have to hold off on the Bluray for next year! What else will they have? :O

Bryan Bowler

Oct 23, 2009, 02:06 AM

Blu-Ray, schmooz-ray. Get over it folks!

EddieGDub

Oct 23, 2009, 06:42 PM

drrich2

Oct 23, 2009, 09:15 PM

There's a minority share of the All-In-One computing user base that values space conservation. Years ago I lived in a dorm room and had a room mate; in that type of situation, consolidating devices into one is quite useful.

In other words, an iMac with a large screen and built-in Blu-Ray Disc capability would only require external speakers and perhaps an 'EyeTV' type product to handle triple duty as a t.v./movie player/computer.

This isn't your typical user situation, but it's a factor for some.

Also, the computer can BE your 'second t.v.' My Father has a Dell PC in his computer room, and while my Mother and Grandmother watch t.v. in the living room, if it's something he doesn't like, he can watch movies on his computer in the other room. No need to buy another t.v., another movie player, etc...

Richard.

SAIRUS

Oct 23, 2009, 09:55 PM

I'm not going to mention names, but I know there are some fanboys in here and I hope they continue to stick to their fanboy ways, because normal people wouldn't have entertainment.

Also not naming names, its quite obvious that they haven't done their research on blu ray, because they're too busy making a list of what organs to donate to Steve Jobs.

First lets talk about options. Options are great aren't they, they give you freedom to do stuff. Now I don't think blu-ray should be mandatory on Macs, but the option should be there. Would it be expensive? Probably yeah, but there are people willing to pay for it.

Now Apple only grew because it was able to deliver a stable computing experience. I won't argue that. With the terrible initial launch of Vista, Mac was able to capitalize and appeal to disgruntled users. Macs are more expensive, but they deliver an experience that can not be matched (well for now heheh beware google). The problem with Windows is its too broad based and it loses the ability to tie well with its hardware.

Now Mac is starting to go down a similar road. They ignore the HD film people who need blu-ray to put their films out. They ignore people who just want to watch the film on their computer. They could watch on a nice 50" hdtv, BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY DON'T! Mac is starting to ignore a growing minority and is starting to look to the more common broad based user.

Now of course downloads are the future, so you think they're going to get that minority back when downloads become the future? Heh sorry to say, but physical media is going to be here for quite a while. It allows quicker access to data and larger amount of data to be accessed than any bandwidth provider in the USA and much of the world can handle. Not to mention terrible compression. To say "well its not as bad" is like saying "well this poo isn't that bad smelling as that." Its still ****, and you're just compensating.

Blu-ray prices $40? I got Transformers 2 on BD for $10 people ($13 - $3 papa johns coupon). Even a quick visit to amazon will get you good deals. What if I like to take my head outside so my organs will be oxygenated for delivery? Open up the Best Buy ad and you'll see quite a few blu-rays on sale this week. Oh and maybe I like special features, games, and trailers. You get more for your money. Oh and the sound no matter what can be downmixed. While I have no idea why you would want to do that, it does still sound good at 1.5 mb.

Oh did I mention, that Apple HD is terrible, and that you're kids will get cancer if you download from them? Heh okay I'm just kidding. I know there are some people getting pretty angry right now so calm down and take a breath. Just because you have an AppleCare plan just doesn't mean you should use it. Prevention first!

I used to think Macs were the best for everything, but now macs are terrible for HD editing and macs are terrible for full HD movie watching. Its the honest truth, and it looks like these people will have to just install Windows. That or wait for for internet infrastructure to catch up.

(I do use both OSes, I do have a blu ray player with the full system, and yes I have downloaded HD movies and everything. Done it all people. There are no assumptions here)

iMJustAGuy

Oct 24, 2009, 12:37 AM

What are you talking about with "$40" movies? BluRay around here (in the US) are $15-$30 at major retailers and less at discount stores. The new transformers for example is $25 right now and for DVD it is $22.99 from the same retailer.

I just bought Transformers 2 on Blu Ray at Walmart an hour ago for $19.99 and that was for the 2 disc special edition! DVD was 14.99. I don't know what he was talking about $40.

CodeJingle

Oct 24, 2009, 01:57 AM

I think the AppleTV service offers downloadable movies at 1080p. I'm pretty sure that is the sole reason for the new iMacs having monitors at that resolution ratio (2560x1440 is also the same ratio as the 1920x1080).

Blu-Ray is competition for AppleTV, why would Steve Jobs put Blu-Ray on Macs - it would cost him more more per Mac to manufacture and drive down AppleTV subscriptions?

It took Apple longer than anyone else to adopt the SD Card Slot, why is anyone holding their breath for BD? You'll have to beat it out of Apple before they give it to you :)

Downloadable is more convenient, but people like paying for something they have tangible ownership of not just something that is purely digital. There is no 'Right of First Sale' with downloaded or streaming movies either! You can't sell a digital movie when you are tired of it, you can do that with a physical disc though.

When compressed to MPEG4 or better, a 3hr 40GB Blu-Ray movie can be squeezed to about 13GB and still maintain very high quality HD. Streaming that in real-time would take about 4hrs at 1MB/s, so it is possible to get Blu-Ray quality movies from a download buy or subscription service. That isn't the point though. The point is about human rights, about dignity, and about wanting to get what you paid for when you blow $2k or more on a computer on the verge of 2010.

And don't forget each disc can store a huge amount of information. Blu-Ray is a format which at the foundation of its specification can support an infinite amount of layers. They have a 4-layer Blu-Ray disc that can support 100GB now http://images.blu-ray.com/media/tdk.jpg that is very useful. In comparison I laugh at burning an 8GB dual-layer dvd.

Apple/Steve Jobs ignores a large amount of users and possible converts. Apple/Steve Jobs ignores alot of people. Apple/Steve Jobs hates competition. But these things have *always* been true. In the 1990s when Steve Jobs allowed 3rd party hardware manufacturers to sell their computer hardware with MacOS, he shut them down the moment they dropped their prices so low that they were competing with Apple's own prices. If you think Apple/Steve Jobs is anything but power hungry and cynical, you are fooling yourself. Apple as a company isn't any better morally or ethically than Microsoft, once you realize that and admit it to yourself than none of this should be a surprise. Search http://www.eff.org/ for 'Apple' and 'iPhone' just to get a taste of truth here. I've been in love with Mac's since I first learned of Apple's existence, but you have to know a company inside and out to really appreciate them.

Bryan Bowler

Oct 24, 2009, 02:05 AM

The point is about human rights, about dignity, and about wanting to get what you paid for when you blow $2k or more on a computer on the verge of 2010.

Ummm, yeah. Whatever dude...

:rolleyes:

CodeJingle

Oct 24, 2009, 02:30 AM

Ummm, yeah. Whatever dude...

:rolleyes:

One of the reason mac users complain so much about something like Blu-Ray is because they can't have it. They know it was asked for and Apple denied them the right to play or burn Blu-Ray, if for nothing other than the almighty dollar (to keep cost ratio down and fuel AppleTV). Come on, common psychology. When a person is affected by something they have no control over (and/or they used what little control they had and it didn't help at all) they feel powerless, they get mad. When a person waves thousands of dollars and asks for something and is ignored and laughed at, they get mad.

My opinion anyway. Right, I do sound crazy. Go ahead and laugh. HaHa!

Michael CM1

Oct 24, 2009, 02:49 AM

Blu-Ray is competition for AppleTV, why would Steve Jobs put Blu-Ray on Macs - it would cost him more more per Mac to manufacture and drive down AppleTV subscriptions?

CDs are competition for the iTunes store, yet most Macs have a CD drive. Same with DVD movies and TV shows vs. the iTunes store.

If you think Blu-ray devices and Apple TV are in "competition," you haven't seen a lot of new tech products. The PS3 does about everything except sync with iTunes. The Xbox 360 lets you stream Netflix as well as acts as a gaming system. My Samsung BD player plays all optical discs (CD, DVD, BD) and streams Blockbuster (big whoops, I know), Netflix, Pandora and YouTube. Apple TV doesn't hold a candle to any of that.

The ATV needs a massive rethinking. I would start out by including an optical drive (option of BD or DVD). Then create an OS that works a lot like the iPhone and could run third-party applications. Then ditch that utterly stupid remote and make something worthwhile (think of a mash-up between an iPhone, remote and Magic Mouse). I'd buy that.

HLdan

Oct 24, 2009, 03:00 AM

CDs are competition for the iTunes store, yet most Macs have a CD drive. Same with DVD movies and TV shows vs. the iTunes store.

You do know that the CD drive does more than playing CD's right? More like installing software maybe and playing games on DVD??:p

CodeJingle

Oct 24, 2009, 03:26 AM

If you think Blu-ray devices and Apple TV are in "competition," you haven't seen a lot of new tech products.

Michael, I mean that Steve Jobs is marketing the AppleTV service for Macs. Right now, if you want to watch a high-def movie on your Mac, the easiest ways are either iTunes or go buy an AppleTV and wirelessly sync between the AppleTV and your Mac. NetFlix just started a new service where HD digital movies can be downloaded directly to a computer, but I hear the selection is limited and the software may not be compatible with Snow Leopard. Last resort is to also have a PC with a Blu-Ray player and rip the Blu-Ray to a format like MPEG4 then copy to your Mac. Sounds painful though. And all those choices would be dwarfed by simply going to the store and buying a Blu-Ray disc, if Macs supported Blu-Ray anyway, then that would be one less reason for people to buy an AppleTV, less money for Apple.

And yes in 5 to 10 years when the internet speed of a typical household is several orders of magnitude faster than currently, and the slowest cpu you've ever heard of is quad-core, yeah maybe then Blu-Ray will be made obsolete by the digital equivalent as it happened for CDs. That point has just about come for DVDs. But even then a Blu-Ray drive will still be good for burning untold amounts of data, even long after you've stopped buying physical copies of movie.

Michael I agree PS3 wins hands-down when competing over movie watching on a family HDTV, that wasn't really what I was talking about though.

pastrychef

Oct 24, 2009, 08:10 AM

Ummm, yeah. Whatever dude...

:rolleyes:

hahahaha. Plus, he didn't pay for a blu-ray drive.

msmth928

Oct 25, 2009, 05:43 PM

Maybe instead of whining about a computer not being able to act like a tv you want maybe you should just buy a second tv? Blaming Apple because you want to watch blu-ray in more then one room is just silly and kind of pathetic.

The only pathetic thing, is you (and any other 'apologetic mac fanboys') failing to at least acknowledge, that IF the end user was given a choice of being able to play full high definition movies on their Mac (that's right, via the industry standard that's blu ray) they would almost certainly say YES PLEASE! :rolleyes:

ob81

Oct 25, 2009, 06:15 PM

I just bought Transformers 2 on Blu Ray at Walmart an hour ago for $19.99 and that was for the 2 disc special edition! DVD was 14.99. I don't know what he was talking about $40.

I have to admit, that the last time I actually bought a Blu-Ray movie was a while ago. A few months before HD DVD died is when I bought my player. While suggested retail price is still around $39.99, I also bought Transformers 2 yesterday for $19.99. Prices are cheap out there. I plan on buying a lot more movies now.

Cave Man

Oct 25, 2009, 06:20 PM

Even if Apple added Blu-ray support to OS X, it wouldn't change how I do HD video. The disc would still get ripped and added to my video library of Blu-ray movies. I like having video on demand on any computer in my house.

ob81

Oct 25, 2009, 06:20 PM

Uhh, why are you even bringing in my 13" MBP into this discussion? Never in my posts did I ever imply any demand for blu-ray in Apple's notebook lineup (though I still believe it would be a welcomed BTO option as you can still output elsewhere).

To remind you again, the topic is about blu-ray in the iMac line, more importantly the 27" iMac. The fact that I own a 13" MBP and not a 27" iMac is also irrelevant and the fact you are digging into my signature for a very weak rebuttal tells me you have nothing against the 27" iMac at this point. We're here to talk about blu-ray on the iMac, and not on my Macbook Pro, please for the sake of this discussion.

If you're not going to give a legitimate reponse to why blu-ray on the 27" iMac would not be comparible to blu-ray on a large screen TV, given the respective distances, then stop beating around the bush as it is and at least save yourself from any further humility.

I was trying to drag your mind out of that hole. Apple thinks on a wide scale about these things. Their most popular line is in the 13" and 15" range. Yes, if they only focused on what you and a few others cared about (few in relation to millions of laptop users), then they would probably be looking at blu-ray. I didn't focus on that aspect for the benefit of my point. I was doing it to get you out of that box.

On another note, people use the whole fanboy thing when they don't have much else to say. Fanboy is giving props to the company no matter what they do. I haven't rode apples nuts on this one. I have simply implied that people need to stop faking the funk on the whole Blu-ray thing. if you want blu-ray so bad, get it. There are many options out there.

darrellishere

Oct 25, 2009, 09:01 PM

I don't know if its been mentioned. But you can rip blu-rays in osx and watch them back using VLC/Plex or xmbc. : MakeMKV

But I am a fanboy and the average computer consumer shouldn't have to do this!!!!!!!! EG Mum, little brothers!!!!

Job's is a joke! Whats with the last min turnaround on blu-ray. Just give us a new BDDVD app at least!

panzer06

Oct 25, 2009, 09:45 PM

I was trying to drag your mind out of that hole. Apple thinks on a wide scale about these things. Their most popular line is in the 13" and 15" range. Yes, if they only focused on what you and a few others cared about (few in relation to millions of laptop users), then they would probably be looking at blu-ray. I didn't focus on that aspect for the benefit of my point. I was doing it to get you out of that box.

On another note, people use the whole fanboy thing when they don't have much else to say. Fanboy is giving props to the company no matter what they do. I haven't rode apples nuts on this one. I have simply implied that people need to stop faking the funk on the whole Blu-ray thing. if you want blu-ray so bad, get it. There are many options out there.

I believe you are missing the point. Every PC OEM has a Blu-ray option, even on $800 laptops. It's an OPTION, which means the buyer can choose to have one installed on his/her desktop or laptop.

There is NO legitimate reason Blu-ray is not supported on the iMac, Mini and MacPro lines. The lack of a 9.5mm slot loading Blu-ray drive means no Apple Blu-ray on laptops as long as Apple laptops are so thin and 9.5mm drives don't exist (or are prohibitively expensive).

However, Apple should not use this as an excuse to withhold Blu-ray support from their desktop products.

Cheers,

Bryan Bowler

Oct 25, 2009, 10:28 PM

They know it was asked for and Apple denied them the right to play or burn Blu-Ray, if for nothing other than the almighty dollar (to keep cost ratio down and fuel AppleTV).

I'm sorry my friend, but Apple has not denied you of any of your rights.

Cry me a river...

XboxEvolved

Oct 26, 2009, 05:41 AM

Well look at it this way, when they first introduced the Super Drive with DVD-R that crap was expensive compared to other companies, and it took them FOREVER to make DVD-R standard in all of the macs. DVD was also much more popular, demanded, and cheaper to create. In comparison, if a Blu-Ray reader/writer came out that would probably take at least $250 to the cost of any mac, something Apple wouldn't want in focusing more on getting cost down. Also why would they want you to buy Blu-Rays? You got iTunes that's all they care about.

yg17

Oct 26, 2009, 09:30 AM

I think the AppleTV service offers downloadable movies at 1080p. I'm pretty sure that is the sole reason for the new iMacs having monitors at that resolution ratio (2560x1440 is also the same ratio as the 1920x1080).

Downloadable movies from iTunes are 720p, not 1080p. And resolution isn't half of it. The movies are compressed and compression artifacts are visible. If Apple upped the res to 1080p all it would do is make the compression artificacts even more obvious.l

northy124

Oct 26, 2009, 09:52 AM

If Apple upped the res to 1080p all it would do is make the compression artificacts even more obvious.l
But what idiot would use the same bitrate for 1080p as 720p? artifacts would be less obvious as it would be going closer to the source IMO.

spcdust

Oct 26, 2009, 11:29 AM

If Apple introduce in-built Blu-ray drives in future revisions of the iMac then could you just purchase an external Blu-ray burner/player using USB2 or Firewire 800 to enjoy Blu-ray playback on this current crop of iMacs? Only asking as I was unsure due to all the HDCP / DRM associated with the Blu-ray format.

Cave Man

Oct 26, 2009, 11:48 AM

HDCP checks are done on three devices: the source drive, video card and display. If any of those are non-compliant, you won't get playback. (The studios have not encoded HDCP on many of their titles because of all the issues with this chain check.) But all the current Macs should be fine for HDCP. The only other issue is encryption.

ascender

Oct 26, 2009, 11:54 AM

Is there a poll anywhere on the site to see just how many users want BR in their Macs now and what they'd use it for?

brendu

Oct 26, 2009, 12:10 PM

Is there a poll anywhere on the site to see just how many users want BR in their Macs now and what they'd use it for?

think ive seen one.. the poll i want to see is how many people with blu ray players in their pc's use it.

panzer06

Oct 26, 2009, 12:22 PM

think ive seen one.. the poll i want to see is how many people with blu ray players in their pc's use it.

I did (use the Blu-ray) until I sold it because it was a PC and I wanted a new Mac. I also got tired of carrying both mac and pc laptops everywhere just so I could game and watch my blu-ray movies at the hotel (Hyatt Place is awesome with 42" LCD in every room and HDMI connections readily presented).

I found a $89 external player and as soon as it arrives I will see if it works with bootcamp.

Cheers,

northy124

Oct 26, 2009, 01:04 PM

I found a $89 external player and as soon as it arrives I will see if it works with bootcamp.
Should do,and if it doesn't use AnyDVD HD to remove the DRM so you can watch it anyway ;)

webraider

Jul 2, 2010, 03:52 AM

Microsoft doesn't support BluRay natively in their OS either. You must purchase and additional player or Ripper. It's too bad we can't get one of these companies that makes rippers come up with a simple player.

Cave Man

Jul 2, 2010, 08:49 AM

Code support must be in the OS, which MS provided starting with Win XP SP2.

peakchua

Jul 2, 2010, 10:07 AM

GOD!! this is even worse than the bag of hurt excuse..... in ANY COMPUTER... at least give me a faster superdrive!!! 12x is fine (now is only 8x) I WANT BLU RAY. ITS DAMN PISSING ME OF!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Vylen

Jul 2, 2010, 12:23 PM

Nothing is stopping you from getting an external Blu-ray drive and use it for Data burning.... (You can even rip movies and watch them that way)

bigwig

Jul 5, 2010, 02:50 AM

Steve thinks 720p downloads with lossy audio are good enough so blu-ray drives aren't necessary. He's wrong, that's not in any way comparable to the quality of a 1080p/Dolby TrueHD Lossless version on Blu-ray. Physical discs aren't going away either. Most people don't have media servers to replace a Blu-ray player, Blu-ray players are cheap, ISP bandwidth caps prevent heavy 720p video downloading, and the disc itself serves as a rather robust back medium. BDs don't crash, resist a wide variance of temperature and humidity, and can't be accidentally erased. In my opinion the issue of backups is a too-often ignored issue when talking about downloadable media.

steviem

Jul 5, 2010, 03:08 AM

Just like how he 'thought' people wouldn't use video on their iPods, he doesn't really believe 720p is good enough either.

They are looking at how to distribute 1080p video as well as possible via IP.

Why support blu-ray? I don't want optical media. I have a PS3 but the only discs I have ever put in it are games, because I'd sooner download my video content. I much prefer having my video playable on all of my devices than just one.

When this cloud based iTunes comes about, maybe the issues of backups will go away. But the first thing I tell my family and friends to do when they get a new pc or laptop is to get as big an external drive as possible to backup their data.

Hard disks (and media servers) are less prone to being scratched up by toddlers and rendered unusable.

bigwig

Jul 5, 2010, 04:04 AM

Just like how he 'thought' people wouldn't use video on their iPods, he doesn't really believe 720p is good enough either.

I have no idea what he really believes, I just go by what he says.

They are looking at how to distribute 1080p video as well as possible via IP.

I suggest you compare the data rates. 1080p over IP is a lot lower quality than what you'll get on a BD. It has to be, it's simply impossible to stream a BD-quality video plus 5-channel lossless audio on anything like current consumer broadband. The broadcast 1080p you see is also overcompressed. Turning a 50GB BD into a 5GB downloadable stream isn't my idea of a comparable offering. For people like Steve to suggest it's a reasonable alternative is, quite frankly, insulting.

I much prefer having my video playable on all of my devices than just one.

The whole point of moving to downloaded content is to stop that and force you to pay for every device you play it on, to stop you from getting any money back by selling it, to stop you from lending it to your friends, and to force your buyer to buy new content from them rather than second-hand from you. You own nothing and have no rights they can't revoke at any time. Never forget that's the goal of the major studios.

Hard disks (and media servers) are less prone to being scratched up by toddlers and rendered unusable.
Who lets toddlers handle their media? High shelves usually solve that problem, as does adequate parental attention.

Tony Montana

Jul 31, 2010, 08:59 PM

When I first purchased my IMac 2 years ago, my thought was that Apple would pay attention to multi-media technologies and incorporate new and popular formats. Since then Blu-Ray has become a standard and very popular format. Why for goodness sake is Apple denying this? Is ther some compelling reason they refuse to incorprate Blu-Ray technology. Why are all the latest and popular movies being sold in the Blu-Ray format then? Why are classic movies being re-released on Blu-Ray. Does Apple want to dictate that DVD is better and has something against Blu-Ray? Blu-Rays can play DVDs so a Blu-Ray drive would offer the consumer the current legacy format (DVD) and the current standard for HD (Blu-Ray). Apple is basically refusing to offer what currently is the standard format for HD then.

A simple solution would be to purchase an external Blu-Ray drive. But for the consumer, this is a more expensive option. Apple is able to buy OEM components for their IMacs and economy of scales would basically even out costs or just be slightly higher than the DVD drives which are in IMacs currently.

I like what Apple is doing with their processors and graphics but for heavens sake the DVD based Super Drive is 10 year old technology integrated along the latest processors and graphics chips!

The only thing I can think of is that Blu-Ray hardware is a Sony creation and Apple refuses to incorporate the format because of that (I'm sure that has been mentioned on this forum before somewhere). Or as stated before, Apple wants you to purchase their movie downloads. It would be nice to rip your own Blu-Rays on an IMac.

As much as I like my IMac, I am not going get rid of the Blu-Ray (Sony PS3) based Home theater stuff just to incorporate Apple hardware. I wanted IPhone but I was not willing to move to AT&T from T-Mobile because AT&T was unable to match my unlimited data plan with T-Mobile as well as pay the additional costs of discontinuing my current plan with t-Mobile and paying more money to purchase a unlocked/jailbroken IPhone. I am doing very fine with my Samsung Vibrant.

I know all you Apple Fanboys will disagree with me, but like the IPhone being locked to AT&T (rumors say otherwise but as always rumors are rumors), Apple is again making an error by refusing to incorporate Blu-Ray.

old-wiz

Jul 31, 2010, 09:21 PM

You have to incorporate blu-ray decode process within ring 0 of the OS kernel. Adding code down there is a good way to compromise the system since a loop/crash there can't be recovered well.

Tony Montana

Jul 31, 2010, 09:40 PM

You have to incorporate blu-ray decode process within ring 0 of the OS kernel. Adding code down there is a good way to compromise the system since a loop/crash there can't be recovered well.

I am sure that there are coding issues that will need to be solved to incorporate Blu-Ray. But where talking Apple here, the folks who revolutionized the smartphone, the folks who got the world out of command line DOS and got everyone using the computer mouse. I am sure that they can resolve this coding issue. I have faith that Apple can. Seems Dell can.

The Blu-ray has been out for over 4 years and is an industry standard format, its time that its incorporated in the IMac despite what some people say about download based HD video being a better solution.

Just as some people may be bypassing the IPhone for Android phones because they are unwilling to switch carriers and deal with higher cost/limited bandwidth plans with At&T they will find other solutions if they cannot incorporate Blu-Ray into their computing/entertainment needs.

I consider Apple a premium brand. As a premium brand, it should incorporate standard formats and if anything do it better. Blu-Ray has been out for over 4 years. It is appaling that it has not been incorporated in Apple hardware.

Cave Man

Jul 31, 2010, 11:36 PM

But where talking Apple here, the folks who revolutionized the smartphone, the folks who got the world out of command line DOS and got everyone using the computer mouse. I am sure that they can resolve this coding issue. I have faith that Apple can. Seems Dell can.

Apple cannot compel the Blu-Ray Disc Association to change their lisencing terms. They insist on highly invasive code in the OS to protect their content (which is silly since it's already been defeated) and Apple won't let that happen. Dell has nothing to do with this story.

Chucknutter

Jul 31, 2010, 11:44 PM

cocky jeremy

Aug 1, 2010, 02:18 AM

I'm really beginning to despise Apple.

Oh how the new iMacs are so cool with 1080p display YET THEY DON'T HAVE A BLU RAY DRIVE! :rolleyes:

It's not about blu ray drives being expensive it's about Apple wanting to push their inferior download service on us. Argh!

Apple = bag of hurt.

/Rant over.

Anyone else feel the same?

For the one millionth time, they do NOT want blu-ray on Macs to compete against iTunes downloads. Accept it or get a different computer. END OF STORY!

SinisterJoe

Aug 1, 2010, 02:36 AM

For the one millionth time, they do NOT want blu-ray on Macs to compete against iTunes downloads. Accept it or get a different computer. END OF STORY!

Apple makes very little money off iTunes video sales and it's doubtful the lack of a BR drive does anything to increase their video sales. Who buys a $20-$30 BR, realizes they can't watch it on their Mac, and instead buys it off iTunes? Who wants a movie and says gee -- I'd rather buy this off iTunes instead of playing it on my 60" 1080P TV with a $99 BluRay player connected to it. Doesn't make sense at all.

I think they just realize few people actually want to watch BR movies on their computer. Spending $X per computer to enable it (software/hardware) doesn't make much sense. It won't increase Mac sales much. It's just flushing money down the toilet.

kev6677

Aug 1, 2010, 02:47 AM

Apple fanboys are so dellusional they will defend apple to the end it's almost cultlike

The other posters said it right it's all about money, bluray is the HD STANDARD all video content in the US requires local and cable channels to use this format.Every major computer manufacturer also offers a bluray drive option however apple refuses to accept this instead they are to busy milking every dime from there customers with INFERIOR hd downloads that are so compressed only a blind man cannot see the difference, but then again the fanboys don't own any blurays disk so how can they tell what apple is pushing with there download service is trash....makes perfect sense

Tony Montana

Aug 1, 2010, 02:03 PM

Apple makes very little money off iTunes video sales and it's doubtful the lack of a BR drive does anything to increase their video sales. Who buys a $20-$30 BR, realizes they can't watch it on their Mac, and instead buys it off iTunes? Who wants a movie and says gee -- I'd rather buy this off iTunes instead of playing it on my 60" 1080P TV with a $99 BluRay player connected to it. Doesn't make sense at all.

I think they just realize few people actually want to watch BR movies on their computer. Spending $X per computer to enable it (software/hardware) doesn't make much sense. It won't increase Mac sales much. It's just flushing money down the toilet.

Most people will not use the IMac as a primary Blu-Ray player, Agreed, most will use their $99 Blu-Ray or Sony PS3 or whatever on a large 1080P TV. But a 27" IMac makes a great secondary BR player for your bedroom, etc. Really large programs like newer video games that need several DVDs or a crapload of CDs can now be copied from a single Blu-Ray disc. Blu-Ray discs can be used to back up your hard drive, won't use as much discs as DVDs. There are online backup options but some prefer having backups physically available.

I agree that adding Blu-Ray may not significantly increase MAC sales, but considering that video chip and display technology on the MAC make it possible to view Blu-ray and Apple continues to keep up with the latest on video and display technology it doesn't make sense to keep using DVD, a 15 year old technology as a video source and optical drive. The costs of Blu-ray hardware is at the point that it costs the same as DVD hardware 10 years ago when Apple started selling its DVD based Superdrive. As for coding issues, as I've said before, Apple has the resources and smarts to overcome this. I think Apple wanting people to use the Apple Store as the primary source for HD material will eventually be to Apple's disadvantage the way AT&T is for the IPhone. People want their options and Blu-Ray is another option that is available right now.

If Apple really wants everyone to use the Apple Store as a primary means to obtain software , video, etc. I say they should remove the optical drive completely. For instance, you can no longer buy a disc for your MAC OS X Snow Leopard upgrade. It only can be downloaded and every other piece of software that goes into your MAC can't be installed by disc you will need to purchase, download and install from the Apple Store. How's that for a solution? Why not? since software can now be downloaded. Why copy photos on a CD of the kids for grandma since she can get it remotely online. Pull the trigger Apple remove all optical drives!

Oh I forgot to add. You can now install SSDs on your Mac. But you still need to use 15 year old DVD technology on your Superdrive. Sorry had to let that one out...

Compile 'em all

Aug 1, 2010, 02:16 PM

Doesn't in the slightest. It's about choice and standards.

Choice?

You must be new to Apple products.

And Yes, giving choice for something that will be used by 0.001% of your customers is a bad thing.

Winni

Aug 1, 2010, 02:23 PM

Blu-Ray on a computer is a gimmick anyway. If you want to burn blu-ray for some weird reason, get an external drive. Watching $40 movies on a computer screen? NO THANKS.

I don't own a TV and I don't want a TV. I watch everything either on my 27" iMac i5 or in bed on my 15" company notebook. DVDs suck on the 27" iMac, iTunes downloads also have an inferior quality but thanks to the Internet, there is a good supply of 1080p movies through other sources.

wirelessness

Aug 1, 2010, 04:06 PM

Physical Media is so 2008!!!

DarwinOSX

Aug 1, 2010, 04:12 PM

Tony Montana

Aug 1, 2010, 04:54 PM

This is one of those Steve Jobs deals that we just have to live with. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to sell us movies. I think he just believes blu-ray will be passed over for streaming or downloaded HD. There is good reason to think that but Blu-ray has reached enough critical mass that we should have the option.

So I guess Stevie thinks he can dictate how things are done at home.

When I come home from work and want to relax and watch a video with my family, I will need to say, "wait for an hour I need to download the video first" My family will basically say "Screw this, lets go to our local grocery store rent the movie and be back in fifteen minutes." or better yet borrow our neighbors BLU-RAY and be back in 5. There are still some advantages to physical media. Unless there is some technology leap that drastically improves download speeds, downloading HD material can be impractical.

Like I said in my earlier post, if Apple wants to force HD downloads on the masses, why even put optical drives on their computers. Why not dictate the world market by having everyone just download HD media since physical media is considered outdated.

Cave Man

Aug 1, 2010, 08:07 PM

Physical Media is so 2008!!!

Optical media will be with us for at least a decade or two. After all, there's nothing to replace it for the studios.

Blu-Ray

Aug 1, 2010, 11:11 PM

I've been waiting almost three years to switch from Wndows to OS X... waiting for this reason alone.

It amazes me the position that Steve Jobs has taken regarding blu-ray. Something else behind the scenes is going on that we don't know about. Apple makes premium products and there is no excuse for not adopting BR by now. They blame it on two things:
1) Licensing issues. They should be well beyond that now
2) Adoption. Blu-ray has a rate of adoption very similar to that of DVD at the same seniority. We are about four years into it...

I'm in a position now that I need a new computer for my household. As much as I'd like to have BR support in my new computer, other things are taking precedence for my family computer. I have a lot of family photos and videos and really like the ease of the iLife apps. I use my PS3 for watching movies on my HDTV, so it is what it is.

I will say that this is annoying. I want one format, not two. When I buy movies now, I only buy blu-ray. They might as well remove the optical drive and use the space for something more useful.

I'm not at the point where I'm ready for purchasing and downloading my HD movies online and don't want to be forced into it. I don't care what anyone says, I want physical media. That may change over time, but right now that is what I want and I'm not willing to give it up.

For now, I'm getting ready to buy my first Mac as a family computer and I'm only doing this because I think OS X is much better for our needs. Here's to hoping Steve Jobs works out his hangups related to BR soon so that we as consumers can have what many of us are asking for.