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MacRumors
Nov 5, 2009, 02:54 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/11/05/apple-experimenting-with-rfid-enabled-iphone-prototypes/)

Near Field Communications World reports (http://www.nearfieldcommunicationsworld.com/2009/11/05/32191/apple-testing-rfid-enabled-iphone/) (via 9 to 5 Mac (http://www.9to5mac.com/rfid_iphone_rumour_returns_50026)) that Apple is rumored to be testing a prototype of its next-generation iPhone equipped with a radio-frequency identification (RFID) chip. The rumor comes from a "highly reliable source" who provided the information to Einar Rosenberg, Chief Technology Officer of Narian Technologies. Rosenberg writes:Had to share this news. A highly reliable source has informed me that Apple has built some prototypes of the next gen iPhone with an RFID reader built in and they have seen it in action. So its not full NFC but its a start for real service discovery and I'm told that the reaction was very positive that we can expect this in the next gen iPhone.Apple has filed several (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/09/new-apple-iphone-patent-applications-surface-object-and-facial-recognition-messaging-voice-modulation/) patent applications (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/02/haptic-feedback-fingerprint-identification-and-rfid-tag-readers-in-future-iphones/) related to RFID, which uses low-power radio waves to allow devices to interact over short ranges. The technology is currently being used in a number of settings, including electronic vehicle toll and mass transit system fare collection and contactless credit card transaction implementations.

Article Link: Apple Experimenting With RFID-Enabled iPhone Prototypes? (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/11/05/apple-experimenting-with-rfid-enabled-iphone-prototypes/)



Small White Car
Nov 5, 2009, 02:57 PM
That'd be pretty sweet.

Of course, there'll people who won't trust it, but is it any less secure than the piece of plastic in your wallet currently doing the job?

rdowns
Nov 5, 2009, 02:57 PM
Very interesting. This would put Apple way ahead of anyone, if true.

Full quote from 9to5:

Were not saying were 100 percent on the source - Near Field Communications - but well relate what weve learned. Einar Rosenberg, who runs the Near Field Communications Group on Linkedin.com, claims as follows:

A highly reliable source has informed me that Apple has built some prototypes of the next gen iPhone with an RFID reader built in and they have seen it in action. So its not full NFC but its a start for real service discovery and I'm told that the reaction was very positive that we can expect this in the next gen iPhone.

doctoree
Nov 5, 2009, 03:01 PM
720p recording would be even cooler

mobi
Nov 5, 2009, 03:04 PM
It already is the "Swiss Champ"

NightFox
Nov 5, 2009, 03:08 PM
Oyster card on my iPhone? Bring it on!

Drumjim85
Nov 5, 2009, 03:10 PM
This will bring nothing but trouble. Drivers licenses, passports, credit cards, and everything else with RFID will be more and more at risk.

Hands Sandon
Nov 5, 2009, 03:11 PM
Oh (big) brother.

This could be great but won't this be giving out too much information?

mspy
Nov 5, 2009, 03:13 PM
Interesting. I wonder how this could be used. Thoughts?

hitekalex
Nov 5, 2009, 03:14 PM
Oh (big) brother.

This could be great but won't this be giving out too much information?

If you're worried about that, you should get off the Internet.

SirOmega
Nov 5, 2009, 03:14 PM
Wow, this fits into the puzzle right next to the "iTunes as a payment service" and "hardened security" pieces.

TheSpaz
Nov 5, 2009, 03:15 PM
I have no idea what the heck RFID is and why we need it in an iPhone. Can anyone give an example of how this technology can be used in the iPhone?

ThunderSkunk
Nov 5, 2009, 03:15 PM
The Apocalypse!!! It's Coming!!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!

Chaszmyr
Nov 5, 2009, 03:16 PM
Sounds awesome to me. I will not be truly happy until my iPhone can replace both my keys and my credit card!

hitekalex
Nov 5, 2009, 03:16 PM
This will bring nothing but trouble. Drivers licenses, passports, credit cards, and everything else with RFID will be more and more at risk.

They used to say that about online banking and online shopping. Of course, using my credit card online is infinitely more secure than handing it over to a schmuck bartender at my local O'Maley's Pub.

lukashaaswasidk
Nov 5, 2009, 03:17 PM
This will bring nothing but trouble. Drivers licenses, passports, credit cards, and everything else with RFID will be more and more at risk.

yeah, bad news.:(

rdowns
Nov 5, 2009, 03:18 PM
I have no idea what the heck RFID is and why we need it in an iPhone. Can anyone give an example of how this technology can be used in the iPhone?


http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-315292.html

Drumjim85
Nov 5, 2009, 03:18 PM
They used to say that about online banking and online shopping. Of course, using my credit card online is infinitely more secure than handing it over to a schmuck bartender at my local O'Maley's Pub.

RFID isn't secure. You can sit at a street corner with a reader and pick up people's pasport info without them knowing. Until they some how change that I'm totally against RFID.

macshill
Nov 5, 2009, 03:21 PM
They used to say that about online banking and online shopping. Of course, using my credit card online is infinitely more secure than handing it over to a schmuck bartender at my local O'Maley's Pub.

Yeah, so long as you're confident some poor schmuck doesn't click the wrong e-mail ("Dear Chase subscriber. Your account may have been compromised. Please click on this convenient link to verify your account."; notice the generic "Chase subscriber", not personalized name). ;)

[phishing schemes]

TheIguana
Nov 5, 2009, 03:21 PM
Well having an RFID reader in the iPhone/iPod touch could simplify purchases instore if apple chipped all the products they sell.

Nuvi
Nov 5, 2009, 03:21 PM
I've worked in mobile communications RFID project. I can tell you the real application is in targeted advertising. Naturally you can do some nice and cool stuff with it but wast majority of partners are interested about the possibility of delivering targeted place of purchase advertising etc. From consumers standpoint I think the mobile communication manufacturers should pay for the RFID upgrade... :o

Small White Car
Nov 5, 2009, 03:22 PM
I have no idea what the heck RFID is and why we need it in an iPhone. Can anyone give an example of how this technology can be used in the iPhone?

Most common use is toll road or subway train passes. I have a card for the subway and box in my car for tolls Both are 'charged' by credit card payments when I want to add more money.

You could, with this, use your phone to gain access to a train and have your fare paid through iTunes (or something) instead of having a whole seperate account and card just for that.

piz
Nov 5, 2009, 03:24 PM
Interesting. I wonder how this could be used. Thoughts?

Thousands of possibilities. I hope for a RFID-Reader und -Sender
For example that could be used instead of a transponder as electric door opener

jeremy.king
Nov 5, 2009, 03:24 PM
Well having an RFID reader in the iPhone/iPod touch could simplify purchases instore if apple chipped all the products they sell.

A reader and an embedded tag would make a lot of sense for all kinds of inter-device communication.

BornToMac
Nov 5, 2009, 03:24 PM
If I read this correctly, the possibilities are exciting. Combined w/ the app store, the possibilities are endless.

TheSpaz
Nov 5, 2009, 03:25 PM
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-315292.html

I don't know if I really like the sound of all that. How actually practical is it in "normal people".

I've never come across a door or a car that uses RFID technology. Just seems like another useless feature that won't get used.

mook
Nov 5, 2009, 03:26 PM
The rumour cites this video as one of the drivers of the technology:
http://www.vimeo.com/4147129

hitekalex
Nov 5, 2009, 03:27 PM
RFID isn't secure. You can sit at a street corner with a reader and pick up people's pasport info without them knowing. Until they some how change that I'm totally against RFID.

RFID is a wireless technology, not unlike 802.11. You can overlay security/encryption on top of it, just like you can do with WiFi/WPA.

M87
Nov 5, 2009, 03:27 PM
720p recording would be even cooler
Indeed! I'm blown away with the picture quality of my Flip Ultra HD. If I could get similar results out my phone... that would be amazing. It would eat through storage space and battery life very quickly though.

rdowns
Nov 5, 2009, 03:27 PM
How actually practical is it in "normal people".



What do you know about normal people? :p

I'm sure Apple has something up their sleeves.

jeremy.king
Nov 5, 2009, 03:28 PM
I've never come across a door or a car that uses RFID technology. Just seems like another useless feature that won't get used.

There are plenty of applications in the security space that leverage RFID.

What do you think these smart keys (lexus, toyota, audi, vw, etc) nowadays use - yep, RFID.

The technology is more pervasive than most people know.

15inchbrick
Nov 5, 2009, 03:32 PM
I am not to savvy with RFID tags ( I mean I use pay-pass like it's going out of style ) but I don't know the technical aspects of it.

Could the iPhone actually control it i.e. Enter your credit card info, info for your car ignition etc.... and then select which one you want to use at what time, and disable it when not in use?

ipoppy
Nov 5, 2009, 03:33 PM
RFID!!! Yes is good. But would be even better if we get some leak info about iChat and front camera:D

macduke
Nov 5, 2009, 03:34 PM
I have no idea what the heck RFID is and why we need it in an iPhone. Can anyone give an example of how this technology can be used in the iPhone?

I thought I read an Apple patent from early this year which described a method of using RFID chips attached to things you might lose frequently (like keys) and then showing a radar like map (or now AR display) of where the tagged objects are around you.

I'm all for this. Just don't put one in my body. K thx.

pottati
Nov 5, 2009, 03:36 PM
how about mobile loyalty rewards and coupons?

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid980795693?bctid=41348615001

macshill
Nov 5, 2009, 03:38 PM
There are plenty of applications in the security space that leverage RFID.

What do you think these smart keys (lexus, toyota, audi, vw, etc) nowadays use - yep, RFID.

The technology is more pervasive than most people know.

"Want to unlock your car during an ice storm at 30 feet away? There's an app for that." :p

When the mafia can use it to detonate car bombs like the 30's gangster movies, you'll know Bonnie and Clyde had it tough! :D

piz
Nov 5, 2009, 03:39 PM
I thought I read an Apple patent from early this year which described a method of using RFID chips attached to things you might lose frequently (like keys) and then showing a radar like map (or now AR display) of where the tagged objects are around you.


Yes I remembered that also at first.
With a transponder in your pocket the iphone could raise an alarm as soon the phone is no longer near you.

Supa_Fly
Nov 5, 2009, 03:42 PM
This makes no sense in the USA.

Right now:
* More MasterCard Holders in Canada & Bank Card holders use securechip
* RFID is hardly, if all used in the USA or Canada
- Germany has already 2 grocery stores in full use.
- what's to stop registered or non-registered pedophiles from using this in clothes to track children. We want the technology, so easiest implementation for economies of scale (to be done quickly) is to put it into seems or washing instruction tags of clothes (all ages). Now with this technology used with an amplifier a said sicko could be at the side of your house, follow you to drop off your kids - identify kids RFID's in clothers/knapsacks/lunch-boxes seperate from adults' items. Then following kids/teens getting home before parents. Yada yada sure this doesn't seem feasable when you live in a house with a dog, but its much easier for kids in apartments (who's parents most likely work longer hours to make ends meet - even in a GOOD economy).

The technology seems nice but it doesn't offer any real EASE of use for us as consumers now. Do you REALLY see traffic jams of pedestrians at the wallmart, k-mart, radio shack, grocery store, JC Penny, etc etc or the Circle-K that you cannot wait 5mins in line to pay for something the traditional way? Seriously??

So for now when there is NO industry really supporting this for the mass market ... its a waist of R&D, increases costs of said devices - even at $5/unit increase its unnecessary.

Also ZIPcar already has a working technology with iPhone software and their service.

Hands Sandon
Nov 5, 2009, 03:44 PM
If you're worried about that, you should get off the Internet.

Yeah, but they currently implant these chips under peoples skin. Get used to these and boom, before you know it you don't "get in" without a chip, you know security et al. Can't drive, can't enter a supermarket, can't get on a bus or plane etc etc without an RFID chip. Maybe I'm over reacting but I don't want my 'real world' presence to be known even more than my 'internet world'.

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 03:47 PM
I don't know if I really like the sound of all that. How actually practical is it in "normal people".

I've never come across a door or a car that uses RFID technology. Just seems like another useless feature that won't get used.
Never used EasyPass to get through tolls?

We don't travel without it anymore.

mpantone
Nov 5, 2009, 03:59 PM
Interesting. I wonder how this could be used. Thoughts?
Credit card/debit card payment at contactless POS terminals (waving your phone over a sensor rather than punching in a PIN at your grocery store).

Loyalty/club card. Transit pass (mass transit: trains, planes, buses). Event tickets (sports & concerts). Parking meter payment. Keyless security pass (corporate buildings).

Just Google "Osaifu-keitai." Japan has had this for years (the term literally means "wallet phone") and are way far ahead in the adoption of RFID and NFC technology. Like their mobile phone system, they are probably 5 years ahead of the United States.

niji
Nov 5, 2009, 04:00 PM
millions of persons use NFC in Japan for trains, subways, buses, starbucks, convenience stores.
we use our NFC enabled fones to check in for flights here.
lack of this facility is often stated as one of the reasons why the iPhone has experienced some hesitation in being purchased.
masayoshi son, softbank chairman, has actively lobbied apple for this facility in the next generation iPhone.
without factory provided solutions there are ridiculous clunkish solutions:

http://cotoha.jp/2009/09/iphone-felica-enq.html

TheSpaz
Nov 5, 2009, 04:01 PM
Never used EasyPass to get through tolls?

We don't travel without it anymore.

I don't go through tolls very much.

LagunaSol
Nov 5, 2009, 04:03 PM
RFID would be perfect for tracking Chinese citizens. ;)

(Or the way the U.S. government is headed right now - American ones?) :(

ThunderSkunk
Nov 5, 2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah, but they currently implant these chips under peoples skin. Get used to these and boom, before you know it you don't "get in" without a chip, you know security et al. Can't drive, can't enter a supermarket, can't get on a bus or plane etc etc without an RFID chip. Maybe I'm over reacting but I don't want my 'real world' presence to be known even more than my 'internet world'.

Well if you were an innocent civilian, you'd have nothing to worry about. ...so clearly, you're guilty of something. ...which is exactly why we need everyone to have these chips and keep tabs on them.

...is how the argument goes...


...making us all wish we were born any other species besides this one.

cmaier
Nov 5, 2009, 04:06 PM
Right. Because rather than just SEEING kids, they'll somehow create a "child's clothes detector." Uh huh.

This makes no sense in the USA.

Right now:
* More MasterCard Holders in Canada & Bank Card holders use securechip
* RFID is hardly, if all used in the USA or Canada
- Germany has already 2 grocery stores in full use.
- what's to stop registered or non-registered pedophiles from using this in clothes to track children. We want the technology, so easiest implementation for economies of scale (to be done quickly) is to put it into seems or washing instruction tags of clothes (all ages). Now with this technology used with an amplifier a said sicko could be at the side of your house, follow you to drop off your kids - identify kids RFID's in clothers/knapsacks/lunch-boxes seperate from adults' items. Then following kids/teens getting home before parents. Yada yada sure this doesn't seem feasable when you live in a house with a dog, but its much easier for kids in apartments (who's parents most likely work longer hours to make ends meet - even in a GOOD economy).

The technology seems nice but it doesn't offer any real EASE of use for us as consumers now. Do you REALLY see traffic jams of pedestrians at the wallmart, k-mart, radio shack, grocery store, JC Penny, etc etc or the Circle-K that you cannot wait 5mins in line to pay for something the traditional way? Seriously??

So for now when there is NO industry really supporting this for the mass market ... its a waist of R&D, increases costs of said devices - even at $5/unit increase its unnecessary.

Also ZIPcar already has a working technology with iPhone software and their service.

jz1492
Nov 5, 2009, 04:07 PM
I have no idea what the heck RFID is and why we need it in an iPhone. Can anyone give an example of how this technology can be used in the iPhone?

There are two possibilities, an RFID tag and an RFID reader/writer.

A tag would be used to identify your iPhone with services where a plastic card or tag is used, usually for payments, door access, hotels, check-in systems, device tracking, inventory management.
A tag inside the iPhone could be of the "active" type (powered) for range and functionality. Encryption is included in most RFID tags nowadays.

An RFID reader is also an interesting proposition. It could be used to identify objects, identify users, recognize accessories, mark all of those as "visited".

Applications are, as always, limited by your imagination:

-Holster detection
-Auto settings per user, per location, per accessory
-iPhone and accessory security
-Exhibit interaction
-Product id, inventory, tracking
-Games, where you identify tokens/cards/board spots, or simply pass the iPhone around.
-iPhone service and manufacturing (Apple internal)
-Capture iTunes gift cards instantly (+short PIN :rolleyes: )
-Capture contact info from driver's license, etc.
-Sell songs/movies/apps in stores using special gift cards
-Electronic post cards
-etc etc etc ;)

Mattie Num Nums
Nov 5, 2009, 04:11 PM
Sounds awesome to me. I will not be truly happy until my iPhone can replace both my keys and my credit card!

Ill be happy when I can make a call without it dropping.

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 04:11 PM
This makes no sense in the USA.

Right now:
* More MasterCard Holders in Canada & Bank Card holders use securechip
* RFID is hardly, if all used in the USA or Canada
- Germany has already 2 grocery stores in full use.
- what's to stop registered or non-registered pedophiles from using this in clothes to track children. We want the technology, so easiest implementation for economies of scale (to be done quickly) is to put it into seems or washing instruction tags of clothes (all ages). Now with this technology used with an amplifier a said sicko could be at the side of your house, follow you to drop off your kids - identify kids RFID's in clothers/knapsacks/lunch-boxes seperate from adults' items. Then following kids/teens getting home before parents. Yada yada sure this doesn't seem feasable when you live in a house with a dog, but its much easier for kids in apartments (who's parents most likely work longer hours to make ends meet - even in a GOOD economy).

The technology seems nice but it doesn't offer any real EASE of use for us as consumers now. Do you REALLY see traffic jams of pedestrians at the wallmart, k-mart, radio shack, grocery store, JC Penny, etc etc or the Circle-K that you cannot wait 5mins in line to pay for something the traditional way? Seriously??

So for now when there is NO industry really supporting this for the mass market ... its a waist of R&D, increases costs of said devices - even at $5/unit increase its unnecessary.

Also ZIPcar already has a working technology with iPhone software and their service.

Yup, because apple always just deals with the here and now rather than focus on future technologies......
:rolleyes:

str1f3
Nov 5, 2009, 04:17 PM
There are two possibilities, an RFID tag and an RFID reader/writer.

A tag would be used to identify your iPhone with services where a plastic card or tag is used, usually for payments, door access, hotels, check-in systems, device tracking, inventory management.
A tag inside the iPhone could be of the "active" type (powered) for range and functionality. Encryption is included in most RFID tags nowadays.

An RFID reader is also an interesting proposition. It could be used to identify objects, identify users, recognize accessories, mark all of those as "visited".

Applications are, as always, limited by your imagination:

-Holster detection
-Auto settings per user, per location, per accessory
-iPhone and accessory security
-Exhibit interaction
-Product id, inventory, tracking
-Games, where you identify tokens/cards/board spots, or simply pass the iPhone around.
-iPhone service and manufacturing (Apple internal)
-Capture iTunes gift cards instantly (+short PIN :rolleyes: )
-Capture contact info from driver's license, etc.
-Sell songs/movies/apps in stores using special gift cards
-Electronic post cards
-etc etc etc ;)

Agreed. Regardless of whether people like it or not, this will be the way the future is heading. Japan uses this heavily and they don't seem to have any privacy issues. If you tie this into the rumors of iTunes becoming a PayPal type service, Apple could potentially dominate the digital transaction marketplace.

Indeed! I'm blown away with the picture quality of my Flip Ultra HD. If I could get similar results out my phone... that would be amazing. It would eat through storage space and battery life very quickly though.

You won't see 720p recording anytime soon. It's not a coincidence that Apple introduced the iFrame format in iMovie. Just like it was no coincidence that iMovie added stabilization features right before an iPhone could record video. The next iPhone, and maybe the 3GS with an upgrade, will be using the 960x540 format.

Mr_Ed
Nov 5, 2009, 04:24 PM
1. Sit down near the pole at the nudie bar.
2. Say "Shake it!" to whoever is on stage.
3. Shake your iPhone near the entertainer to give a tip.

What could be easier?
:D

ortuno2k
Nov 5, 2009, 04:25 PM
One step closer in RFID advancements. Soon, most of you will have a chip implanted in your right hand. There will be no need for driver's license, credit card, id's, money, insurance cards...etc. The RFID chip will hold that information. Even allow you to enter and leave your house and car without an actual key! Just google RFID and you'll see what it is and its intent.

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

rtdunham
Nov 5, 2009, 04:25 PM
Very interesting. This would put Apple way ahead of anyone, if true.

I thought it would constitute catching up to practices in Japan for at least the past several years? I'm curious whether implementing it in the US requires newly-developed technology or merely the adoption of tech that exists and is used elsewhere.

piz
Nov 5, 2009, 04:27 PM
You won't see 720p recording anytime soon. It's not a coincidence that Apple introduced the iFrame format in iMovie. Just like it was no coincidence that iMovie added stabilization features right before an iPhone could record video. The next iPhone, and maybe the 3GS with an upgrade, will be using the 960x540 format.

Yes, but but since 540 x 1.5 = 720 there it would be very easy and fast to downsample from a 720 Sensor and thereby most of the 720 quality may stay in data if you play the resulting 540 at 720.

rtdunham
Nov 5, 2009, 04:28 PM
...Of course, using my credit card online is infinitely more secure than handing it over to a schmuck bartender at my local O'Maley's Pub.

sure, everybody blames things on the Irish, even those so poor they couldn't afford both Ls.

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 04:28 PM
I thought it would constitute catching up to practices in Japan for at least the past several years? I'm curious whether implementing it in the US requires newly-developed technology or merely the adoption of tech that exists and is used elsewhere.

All it would require is America finally getting off its ass and getting back up to date in tech.

Yr Blues
Nov 5, 2009, 04:28 PM
One step closer in RFID advancements. Soon, most of you will have a chip implanted in your right hand. There will be no need for driver's license, credit card, id's, money, insurance cards...etc. The RFID chip will hold that information. Even allow you to enter and leave your house and car without an actual key! Just google RFID and you'll see what it is and its intent.

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

:D Progress need not concern itself with ethics nor even caution

mdriftmeyer
Nov 5, 2009, 04:29 PM
RFID isn't secure. You can sit at a street corner with a reader and pick up people's pasport info without them knowing. Until they some how change that I'm totally against RFID.

I'm sure they overlooked the lack of encryption. Thanks for setting Apple's Engineering staff straight.

Hands Sandon
Nov 5, 2009, 04:29 PM
Right. Because rather than just SEEING kids, they'll somehow create a "child's clothes detector." Uh huh.

There are already RFID chips in some clothing. The chips don't have batteries and are tiny.

"It becomes unnervingly easy to imagine a scenario where everything you buy that's more expensive than a Snickers will sport RFID tags, which typically include a 64-bit unique identifier yielding about 18 thousand trillion possible values. KSW-Microtec, a German company, has invented washable RFID tags designed to be sewn into clothing. And according to EE Times, the European central bank is considering embedding RFID tags into banknotes by 2005."
~ http://news.cnet.com/2010-1069-980325.html

retroneo
Nov 5, 2009, 04:33 PM
Cool,

I was thinking of doing this with a Bladox Waver and slipping it under a Gelaskin on the back. iPhone can indeed run the Java app on the SIM without Jailbreaking.

I'd like to put my work door access card, my Mastercard Paypass and my pulic transport card all in my iPhone. Then I wouldn't need to take my wallet and keys with me all the time. Very nice.

Some of you guys are so paranoid! NFC's range is less than 4 inches. It isn't related to the system used for electronic tolling.

I guess that means a SWP SiM card slot for the next iPhone!

Winni
Nov 5, 2009, 04:36 PM
Everyone who thinks that this a good development should read The Fourth Realm trilogy by John Twelve Hawks, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury and 1984 by George Orwell.

Drumjim85
Nov 5, 2009, 04:38 PM
I'm sure they overlooked the lack of encryption. Thanks for setting Apple's Engineering staff straight.

Just like the credit card and us government has. Yes.

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 04:39 PM
Everyone who thinks that this a good development should read The Fourth Realm trilogy by John Twelve Hawks, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury and 1984 by George Orwell.

OR, they can not be paranoid and take a look at how well its working in the rest of the world. Why America seems to fall behind in tech (and lately it seems almost every aspect) is beyond me.

Rocketman
Nov 5, 2009, 04:40 PM
RFID isn't secure. You can sit at a street corner with a reader and pick up people's pasport info without them knowing. Until they some how change that I'm totally against RFID.

RFID is more applicable to applications where only partial info rests with the RFID tag, such as the tag number itself, where the reader understands the ID, its physical and temporal location, and refers to the critical data on a secure internet connection associated with that item. It is used to track shipments, high value inventory items, dogs and small children, model rockets, and is a really stupid thing to have in a passport, especially with any more info than the ID number itself.

The credit cards with the personal info chip have some hardwired security, but if someone physically steals the card they can still use it till it is reported and disabled. CC TOS allows the possessor to use it so you can give it to your daughter or girlfriend, despite it having your name on it.

Rocketman

cababah
Nov 5, 2009, 04:40 PM
I heard something about yada yada yada "zombie" yada yada yada "apocalypse"

Anyway, I'm here.

tempusfugit
Nov 5, 2009, 04:42 PM
Very interesting. This would put Apple way ahead of anyone, if true.

Full quote from 9to5:


Not really. I know for a fact that Discover/Novus tested this technology at least 4 years ago. I know because they never asked for their motorola Q back.

baryon
Nov 5, 2009, 04:42 PM
What's the point of this? Aren't Bluetooth and WiFi already made to communicate between devices?

Isn't RFID that thing that sounds an alarm when you try to steal something from a clothes shop? What would be the use of that in an iPhone?

rtdunham
Nov 5, 2009, 04:43 PM
Right. Because rather than just SEEING kids, they'll somehow create a "child's clothes detector." Uh huh.

he's worried about blind pedophiles. His--and numerous other posts in this thread--show how extreme, and extremely silly, some people's points of view are.

I liked the guy whose signature said something like "science and philosophy, not religion and politics." Some of these "they're coming to get us" guys need to use a little more reason.

imho

piz
Nov 5, 2009, 04:46 PM
What's the point of this? Aren't Bluetooth and WiFi already made to communicate between devices?

Isn't RFID that thing that sounds an alarm when you try to steal something from a clothes shop? What would be the use of that in an iPhone?

A RFID device today can be very cheap printed label for example as replacement of a barcode.
And yes steal alarm is similar tec.

libertyforall
Nov 5, 2009, 04:48 PM
JUST SAY NO TO SPY CHIPS!


If iPhone gets RFID, my iPhone buying days will end.

Read:
http://www.spychips.com/
:mad::eek::confused:

SooneratND
Nov 5, 2009, 04:49 PM
Sounds awesome to me. I will not be truly happy until my iPhone can replace both my keys and my credit card!


My car uses an RFID ignition system (push button start) and some credit cards are already RFID capable...this is theoretically possible if the iPhone had an RFID chip in it.

baryon
Nov 5, 2009, 04:51 PM
A RFID device today can be very cheap printed label for example as replacement of a barcode.
And yes steal alarm is similar tec.

Yes, but what would the use be in an iPhone? Would it be to recognise products to look them up on the net to compare prices, or what?

irmongoose
Nov 5, 2009, 04:53 PM
The key to this technology's success in Japan was its adoption by the train/subway companies.
Everyone (in Tokyo, at least) uses the trains, and having RFID-enabled cards or devices meant that people no longer had to bother buying tickets and calculating, each time, how much they had to pay.
So the adoption came in the form of a greatly enhanced user experience.
Once RFIDs were widespread, then, it allowed for numerous other venues to allow added benefit to their services.

In the US, the only service that comes close in having the potential to encourage widespread adoption would be the EasyPass system, because almost everyone has cars.
But do most people regularly use toll roads? I certainly don't.

Maybe they're only including it to appease Japanese customers?
That seems quite far-fetched.
But I really struggle to see how this kind of technology can be pushed only by one manufacturer.
Unless there is major backing from the government or a corporation that provides one of these said services that would encourage consumer adoption, it seems like a bad investment for Apple.



irmongoose

Clayne
Nov 5, 2009, 04:59 PM
The generation of iPhones that contain an RFID chip will be the generation of iPhones I opt out of purchasing.

-c

C is for COOKIE
Nov 5, 2009, 05:05 PM
Think this is quite a bad development..
RFID can only lead to bad things. If you tell people that a chip will be implanted in them that will track their location and everything they do, they'll say no.
If you tell them that they can open their car from a few feet away with it or don't have to carry your credit cards around, they'll jump up to get it.

People need to read 1984...Anyone who thinks that it would be crazy for governments to do these things or try these things, then you're really not all that bright..Look no further than the UK

harlinator
Nov 5, 2009, 05:06 PM
There are plenty of applications in the security space that leverage RFID.

What do you think these smart keys (lexus, toyota, audi, vw, etc) nowadays use - yep, RFID.

The technology is more pervasive than most people know.
Yep... and have every hacking maggot trying to get into them. I think they should have licenses for people to use computers... if you have fraud convictions... sorry bud, no computer or internet for you!
Just like guns!

baryon
Nov 5, 2009, 05:09 PM
One step closer in RFID advancements. Soon, most of you will have a chip implanted in your right hand. There will be no need for driver's license, credit card, id's, money, insurance cards...etc. The RFID chip will hold that information. Even allow you to enter and leave your house and car without an actual key! Just google RFID and you'll see what it is and its intent.

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

Yes, so instead of people robbing you on the street and take whatever you have, they will cut your hand off to get all your money, your car, and access to your house, etc... Nice future!

carbonware
Nov 5, 2009, 05:10 PM
RFID's are often used in retail to track movement of product within the store, inventory control, and in few stores once you've picked up a product they can track how you move around the store, where you linger longest, what traffic patters you use to wind through the store. It's all very useful in store planning and in-store advertising. Once you have left the store the RFID is supposed to be too far from the receiver to track it. But that is where some people get to worrying about big brother and such.

Department stores also use it for Loss Prevention and tracking yet it's incredibly smaller compared to the magnetic and clips you find on clothes or DVD boxes for the few stores who still do that.

carbonware
Nov 5, 2009, 05:14 PM
One step closer in RFID advancements. Soon, most of you will have a chip implanted in your right hand. There will be no need for driver's license, credit card, id's, money, insurance cards...etc. The RFID chip will hold that information. Even allow you to enter and leave your house and car without an actual key! Just google RFID and you'll see what it is and its intent.

It's already used in pets to track them, some lojack systems and some states are pushing to put it in kids to protect them from kidnappers. As if that happens so often that the state needs to track everywhere a kid, who eventually grows up and always has it.

Part of the health reform bills suggested that an RFID with our medical info be placed inside everyone so in an emergency and EMT or ER Nurse would just scan you and know all your medical history. I don't mind that on an ID bracelet but your not putting it inside me or my kids. I don't know if it stayed in the current version of the bill or not.

orion123
Nov 5, 2009, 05:30 PM
This is actually very interesting. Swipe payments have never taken hold here in the US, but its obvious they will (we caught up with SMS a few years late too). If Apple can get out in front, they'll lead the market yet again.

Oh before you call me an ignoramus, Libertyforall, just know that your cell phone or iphone is broadcasting its MAC address and IMEI, it's just a different code from the RFID tag. It's your future, come out from your libertarian cave and help make it more secure.

Part of the health reform bills suggested that an RFID with our medical info be placed inside everyone

Carbonware, cmon, that's not in any of the bills, read up

MattInOz
Nov 5, 2009, 05:35 PM
One step closer in RFID advancements. Soon, most of you will have a chip implanted in your right hand. There will be no need for driver's license, credit card, id's, money, insurance cards...etc. The RFID chip will hold that information. Even allow you to enter and leave your house and car without an actual key! Just google RFID and you'll see what it is and its intent.

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

This is why I hate religion. The constant hounding that some how death will be better than life. I can see lot of nut jobs trying to bring about this tech to try and forfill the prophesy to up their prospects in death.

The tech itself is pure.
Purely neutral that is.
It's the collective Dickhead that is Man that makes it good and evil.

chris7777
Nov 5, 2009, 06:12 PM
I find it peculiar, that many of the same people who rail on, defame, and despise windows, are so eager to embrace a technology, that for all intents and purposes , is the exact same thing.

If you really don't trust microsoft, a business, then why do you trust apple another business, as if they have your best interest in mind, rather than the shareholders?

There is a reason that their was a big stink about Obama, and his blackberry.
If it is not good enough for the president of the united state, then why is it good enough for you?

Another thing to keep in mind, is those who are in charge change over time, someone you trust may be in charge for the moment, but what about when someone you don't trust steps into that role.

I am not going to browbeat anyone with it, just suggesting you think about the potential, for misuse,

I mean how many of you LOVE spam, spyware, and keyloggers?

Yet you are all for carrying around a device that not only fills the same purpose as the above, but surpasses, them.

Ever wondered how the credit bureaus were given the authority to keep tabs on our citizens, and Who it was that gave them that right?

Identity theft would be non existent, if a system that both enables, and promotes it were not in effect, at our insistence.

scottness
Nov 5, 2009, 06:17 PM
not entirely ready to trust my stuff with this idea yet.

scottness
Nov 5, 2009, 06:22 PM
Yeah, but they currently implant these chips under peoples skin. Get used to these and boom, before you know it you don't "get in" without a chip, you know security et al. Can't drive, can't enter a supermarket, can't get on a bus or plane etc etc without an RFID chip. Maybe I'm over reacting but I don't want my 'real world' presence to be known even more than my 'internet world'.

my dog and cat have one of these under their skin... don't want one under mine either!!

MattInOz
Nov 5, 2009, 06:56 PM
If the chips are so cheap and abundant then why rely on just one for more critical security intensive transactions. We never rely on one authority except for the most basic transactions.

So have your own authority server at home near the door that builds up a series of chips associated with you. No doubt on any given day you would have a few or lots of those chips on you.

When you want to transact the other party scans the area picks up all chips area and send that list an the transaction detail back to your server maybe via a proxy like your own phone if it's happy that enough are in list it approves.

Yes the are reasons to be cautious of what the technology enables but that applies to every technology. That same biblical quote could be applied to any of them.

RL600
Nov 5, 2009, 07:00 PM
One step closer in RFID advancements. Soon, most of you will have a chip implanted in your right hand. There will be no need for driver's license, credit card, id's, money, insurance cards...etc. The RFID chip will hold that information. Even allow you to enter and leave your house and car without an actual key! Just google RFID and you'll see what it is and its intent.

“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16-17

I do have a chip implanted in my (left) hand. I did it for hobby reasons a year ago! I read a book (http://rfidtoys.net/) on it and ever since ive been doing so much with RFID. I love it, its the coolest thing. I even made a doggy door that opens just for my dog when she walks up to it. Uneducated/close minded people always look at me weird when I tell them about it though, but thats because they dont understand. I dont know why you put that mumbo-jumbo at the bottom of your post since it has nothing to do with RFID technology, it talks about a "mark" done by the "beast" or the "devil" or whatever, not a chip that is voluntarily put in for fun/hobby reasons. But im not going to get in to religion because it tends to be a touchy subject with believers.. I DO start my motorcycle, car, lock/unlock my house, lock/unlock my computer with my left hand all the time, I think it'll be great when my iPhone only works when its in my hand! :)

Unsecure or not, the last time someone walked up to my house and saw there was a scanner instead of a keyhole they had to ring the bell and question it, and thought it was the neatest thing. :D I know more people that have had their houses broken in because they used some cheap ass locks and someone picked it or broke, never heard of someone cloning their RFID numbers from their hand yet lol

OceanView
Nov 5, 2009, 07:00 PM
I would rather have:

720p Video,
64GB memory
6MP+ camera.
Faster Processor

MattInOz
Nov 5, 2009, 07:12 PM
I would rather have:

720p Video,
64GB memory
6MP+ camera.
Faster Processor

Plus DAB+ radio

GottaLoveApple4
Nov 5, 2009, 07:13 PM
Walk into Walmart, Target, Grocery Store, etc., grab a cart and get what you want. Then walk through an arch at the doorway and everything is scanned via RFID, totaled and charged to your iPhone. :D:apple:

2992
Nov 5, 2009, 07:59 PM
Yes, so instead of people robbing you on the street and take whatever you have, they will cut your hand off to get all your money, your car, and access to your house, etc... Nice future!

Nice "feature"! :eek:

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 08:01 PM
I would rather have:

720p Video,
64GB memory
6MP+ camera.
Faster Processor

@ the underlined: Why?

Clayne
Nov 5, 2009, 08:35 PM
I find it peculiar, that many of the same people who rail on, defame, and despise windows, are so eager to embrace a technology, that for all intents and purposes , is the exact same thing.

If you really don't trust microsoft, a business, then why do you trust apple another business, as if they have your best interest in mind, rather than the shareholders?

There is a reason that their was a big stink about Obama, and his blackberry.
If it is not good enough for the president of the united state, then why is it good enough for you?

Another thing to keep in mind, is those who are in charge change over time, someone you trust may be in charge for the moment, but what about when someone you don't trust steps into that role.

I am not going to browbeat anyone with it, just suggesting you think about the potential, for misuse,

I mean how many of you LOVE spam, spyware, and keyloggers?

Yet you are all for carrying around a device that not only fills the same purpose as the above, but surpasses, them.

Ever wondered how the credit bureaus were given the authority to keep tabs on our citizens, and Who it was that gave them that right?

Identity theft would be non existent, if a system that both enables, and promotes it were not in effect, at our insistence.

Thank you. I honestly don't trust it.

People say technology is neutral but I'm not convinced. It's for the same reason we don't have nuclear ovens and solar-powered bombs. Technology is developed with a purpose, and when discussing technology that has the ability to track, and to retrieve and communicate private information to people I don't know or have no reason to trust, then the question of it's necessity should be strongly implemented.

And yes, the internet is capable of as much leak in privacy, but that is hardly excuse to allow more. There is legislation being considered right now that will determine the future freedom of the internet and whether or not even more privacy will be sacrificed, and that should be fought as well in favor of civil liberties. And so should the implementation of RFID's.

chris7777
Nov 5, 2009, 08:36 PM
Unsecure or not, the last time someone walked up to my house and saw there was a scanner instead of a keyhole they had to ring the bell and question it, and thought it was the neatest thing. :D I know more people that have had their houses broken in because they used some cheap ass locks and someone picked it or broke, never heard of someone cloning their RFID numbers from their hand yet lol

I know someone who has 2 dual sided dead bolts on their doors, and no door knobs on either side.
Sounds cool, until its the middle of the night and theres a fire, and no one can locate both keys.

is Security and or Wow above all other concerns really all that wise?
What if the power is out?

chris7777
Nov 5, 2009, 09:18 PM
Thank you. I honestly don't trust it.

People say technology is neutral but I'm not convinced. It's for the same reason we don't have nuclear ovens and solar-powered bombs. Technology is developed with a purpose, and when discussing technology that has the ability to track, and to retrieve and communicate private information to people I don't know or have no reason to trust, then the question of it's necessity should be strongly implemented.

And yes, the internet is capable of as much leak in privacy, but that is hardly excuse to allow more. There is legislation being considered right now that will determine the future freedom of the internet and whether or not even more privacy will be sacrificed, and that should be fought as well in favor of civil liberties. And so should the implementation of RFID's.

Technology is a tool, but the problem is, so is a gun, and its a very powerful tool, the power to annihilate a small nation from the map, is quite literally at the tip of a finger pushing a button.

Every tool, we have has the potential for misuse, my problem, is that so many, don't consider the ramifications of these things. Should we start letting children drive when they can reach the pedals of a car?
Should they be allowed to own guns when they are physically strong enough to pull the trigger.

Everyone freaked out at 911, so much so that nail clippers are not allowed on air planes, yet technology that can track our every action is applauded, and cheered for, with our pride in our so called accomplishments. But in actuality are we really wise enough to wield such power? it has only been 76 years since Hitler rose to power in Germany,
Just imagine if he had our technology.

in less than 10 years he engulfed the globe, in technology developed in the late 1800's early 1900's , what do you suppose someone , so inclined could do, with all of the toys, procedures, and eager beaver adopters, we have now?

The Jews were tattooed against their wills, now its the cool thing to do. We are freely and unquestioningly allowed to modify, mutilate, and alter our bodies, yet, how many really think of the long term ramifications, and effects , of such things. Much less the mandatory ones.

Its always some other person, or other country, or somebody else, that the bad things happen to but what if, just what if, it happens here?

it has only been 8 years since 911, yet how many have already divorced it from their conciousness, as something that only happens to someone somewhere else.

I know these things can't be stopped, some of us believe they have already been foretold, but to those who don't , those who believe they really are treading on new frontiers, and unbeaten paths, look at your friends, your neighbours, your co-workers, and ask yourself, have people really changed, since 1933, have people in general, really changed since April 12, 1861? and just what do you think those same people will do, with our technology, if they are so inclined?

We all like to think we are smarter than that, like we could or never would go down those dark paths, but if that were true, then why does it keep happening.

how about I phrase it a different way, what if you were mandated, to carry one of these devices? and what if someone you knew was incompetent, (and I am being generous, by not saying downright malicious) had access to your personal identification. Would you really feel secure? Do you feel secure enough to PM someone on this forum your identification, info? I am sure mac forums would not intentionally divulge it, unless of course law enforcement, inclined them to, but what about the myriad of hackers, and malware makers?

How many "secure" impregnable, sites have been hacked, and private info exposed?

the Nazis believed the enigma machine was uncrackable, but it was cracked.

its like leap frog. only now the quest for the bigger and better is also indoctrinated into us as consumerism.

Remember how fast OSX was hacked a year or so back?

the invulnerable Os, hacked in minutes.

Are you really sure you want to place all your eggs in one basket?

just 2 minor things to consider, what if you drop your iphone, and what if its stolen?

What if your neighbour poisons your dog and extracts the RFID to enter through the doggie door?

I don't believe we should be paranoid, 911 made too many people that way, but I also think it made too many people dependant on others and things, to "protect them".

back when castles were seiged, the walls of the castle often protected those inside, from those that intended to do them harm on the outside, but those very same walls that protected them, also imprisoned them, from the sustenance of food and water, that eventually ran out, and could only be replenished from the outside.

A knights suit of armor does them little good if its weight keeps them trapped down at the bottom of the moat.

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 09:19 PM
Remember how fast OSX was hacked a year or so back?

the invulnerable Os, hacked in minutes.



"minutes" if you don't count the days of preparation he took before the contest writing his exploit.....
:rolleyes:

Stridder44
Nov 5, 2009, 09:49 PM
I've worked in mobile communications RFID project. I can tell you the real application is in targeted advertising. Naturally you can do some nice and cool stuff with it but wast majority of partners are interested about the possibility of delivering targeted place of purchase advertising etc. From consumers standpoint I think the mobile communication manufacturers should pay for the RFID upgrade... :o

I 100% believe this. They have to have a good reason (read: to make more money) before even bothering coming up with some rough ideas for it's consumer use.

This makes no sense in the USA.

Right now:
* More MasterCard Holders in Canada & Bank Card holders use securechip
* RFID is hardly, if all used in the USA or Canada
- Germany has already 2 grocery stores in full use.
- what's to stop registered or non-registered pedophiles from using this in clothes to track children. We want the technology, so easiest implementation for economies of scale (to be done quickly) is to put it into seems or washing instruction tags of clothes (all ages). Now with this technology used with an amplifier a said sicko could be at the side of your house, follow you to drop off your kids - identify kids RFID's in clothers/knapsacks/lunch-boxes seperate from adults' items. Then following kids/teens getting home before parents. Yada yada sure this doesn't seem feasable when you live in a house with a dog, but its much easier for kids in apartments (who's parents most likely work longer hours to make ends meet - even in a GOOD economy).

The technology seems nice but it doesn't offer any real EASE of use for us as consumers now. Do you REALLY see traffic jams of pedestrians at the wallmart, k-mart, radio shack, grocery store, JC Penny, etc etc or the Circle-K that you cannot wait 5mins in line to pay for something the traditional way? Seriously??

So for now when there is NO industry really supporting this for the mass market ... its a waist of R&D, increases costs of said devices - even at $5/unit increase its unnecessary.

Also ZIPcar already has a working technology with iPhone software and their service.

Agreed. I'm not a big fan of this RFID idea.

iTom
Nov 5, 2009, 09:53 PM
Chris7777 that's a nice compelling "article" you just wrote. I really enjoyed your thoughts on the matter.Thanks for taking the time to share all that.

PlunderBunny
Nov 5, 2009, 10:31 PM
I have the passcode enabled on my iPhone, to protect my data if the phone is stolen. But I'd like to have a proximity indicator so that I didn't need to enter the passcode if the phone was, say, in my house. I can imagine that this might be possible with RFID.

JaxTJ
Nov 5, 2009, 10:39 PM
...for mobile hackers. "Identity theft? There's an app for that!"

rjohnstone
Nov 5, 2009, 10:42 PM
Unsecure or not, the last time someone walked up to my house and saw there was a scanner instead of a keyhole they had to ring the bell and question it, and thought it was the neatest thing. :D I know more people that have had their houses broken in because they used some cheap ass locks and someone picked it or broke, never heard of someone cloning their RFID numbers from their hand yet lol

Nobody picks locks anymore. ;)

A criminal doesn't need to clone you RFID chip, they kick your door in or simply come in through the weakest point in any house... a window.

Typical house alarms are a joke and very easy to bypass.
They are simply deterrents for amateurs.

AidenShaw
Nov 5, 2009, 10:51 PM
Chris7777 that's a nice compelling "article" you just wrote. I really enjoyed your thoughts on the matter.Thanks for taking the time to share all that.

+1. Thank you, Chris7777.

Typical house alarms are a joke and very easy to bypass.
They are simply deterrents for amateurs.

In our neighborhood, when an alarm goes off there will be police at the door with 10 minutes.

I like that.

Yr Blues
Nov 5, 2009, 10:56 PM
http://www.oasislocator.org/images/Spychips.jpg

NT1440
Nov 5, 2009, 10:56 PM
Ridiculous amounts of paranoia in this thread. Other parts of the world have embraced this technology for years.

*LTD*
Nov 5, 2009, 11:26 PM
http://www.oasislocator.org/images/Spychips.jpg

Government tracking my every move?

For what purpose, exactly? How am I that important? I mean, I'm flattered, but it might be a waste. If they let Noam Chomsky walk around then I should be golden!

They're more than welcome to track me, but if they're looking for mysterious secrets and earth-shattering excitement they could probably do better.

I guess I'll go and watch some "subversive" South Park or something, LOL.

There would be cameras in the house or they would be viewing my every move remotely, listening in and I'd be all like. . . "oh hi guys, if you can hear me I'm going to brush my teeth now. Then I'm going to hop in the shower, but keep in mind your picture might steam up. And then I'm off to buy bread. Should I go for a baguette or a marble rye, what do you guys think? And my condo doesn't get a lot of southern light, so I was thinking maybe I'll go for a nice lamp or something. Should I spring for the IKEA sale tomorrow? I dunno . ."

NeilP
Nov 5, 2009, 11:44 PM
I would rather have:

720p Video,
64GB memory
6MP+ camera.
Faster Processor

I would rather have a flash for the camera and an AM/FM tuner. Those should both be very useful to many people and very feasible with current technology and within Apple's economic constraints. The more futuristic wish, is biometric security, such as a retina scan, so the phone would always be locked unless I'm looking at it when I click the home or sleep button.

Yr Blues
Nov 5, 2009, 11:46 PM
Government tracking my every move?

For what purpose, exactly? How am I that important? I mean, I'm flattered, but it might be a waste. If they let Noam Chomsky walk around then I should be golden!

They're more than welcome to track me, but if they're looking for mysterious secrets and earth-shattering excitement they could probably do better.

I guess I'll go and watch some "subversive" South Park or something, LOL.

There would be cameras in the house or they would be viewing my every move remotely, listening in and I'd be all like. . . "oh hi guys, if you can hear me I'm going to brush my teeth now. Then I'm going to hop in the shower, but keep in mind your picture might steam up. And then I'm off to buy bread. Should I go for a baguette or a marble rye, what do you guys think? And my condo doesn't get a lot of southern light, so I was thinking maybe I'll go for a nice lamp or something. Should I spring for the IKEA sale tomorrow? I dunno . ."

I don't know, maybe profiling potential war-protesters and figuring out the hierarchy and stop it from the source before it happens. Nothing that they can't use FaceBook or Twitter for, but it would be easier to track down a person with RFID. Even a cellphone can be ditched at the last minute. :D

NeilP
Nov 5, 2009, 11:55 PM
...There is a reason that their was a big stink about Obama, and his blackberry.
If it is not good enough for the president of the united state, then why is it good enough for you?...

I don't think I need as secure a phone as the President of the USA. Hackers have much more incentive to get into his e-mail than mine.

rjohnstone
Nov 6, 2009, 12:01 AM
In our neighborhood, when an alarm goes off there will be police at the door with 10 minutes.

I like that.
We get similar response times in my neighborhood as well.
But after seeing the results of a criminal who knew what he was doing, it's very scary when you see how easy Honeywell/Ademco alarm systems are to bypass.
Just about every alarm company uses this equipment... they just re-brand it.

MorphingDragon
Nov 6, 2009, 12:29 AM
Government tracking my every move?

For what purpose, exactly? How am I that important? I mean, I'm flattered, but it might be a waste. If they let Noam Chomsky walk around then I should be golden!

They're more than welcome to track me, but if they're looking for mysterious secrets and earth-shattering excitement they could probably do better.

I guess I'll go and watch some "subversive" South Park or something, LOL.

There would be cameras in the house or they would be viewing my every move remotely, listening in and I'd be all like. . . "oh hi guys, if you can hear me I'm going to brush my teeth now. Then I'm going to hop in the shower, but keep in mind your picture might steam up. And then I'm off to buy bread. Should I go for a baguette or a marble rye, what do you guys think? And my condo doesn't get a lot of southern light, so I was thinking maybe I'll go for a nice lamp or something. Should I spring for the IKEA sale tomorrow? I dunno . ."America is turning into China, you just dont know it yet.

SeaFox
Nov 6, 2009, 12:35 AM
In Soviet Amerika, iPhone keeps track of you!

MorphingDragon
Nov 6, 2009, 12:41 AM
In Soviet Amerika, iPhone keeps track of you!

Tsing siusam jyttoi hunggwek.
Please mind the gap.

chris7777
Nov 6, 2009, 01:16 AM
I have carried a palm pilot now for like 7 or 8 years, and I have not put anything on it , nor will I, that If I loose it, I won't be out much more than the device itself.

no financial info, though admittedly I need to be keeping better track of my cash.

I do have a lot of phone numbers and addresses, But I have had both the device actually being left behind for several hours at a restaurant, while on vacation, plus the nefarious hard reset occur unexpectedly.

What would you do if your wallet shredded your cash when it had a hard reset?

What about your drivers licence?

one of the reasons I like having both a phone and a pda, is I can talk on one and read from the other at the same time, too much convergence, places all your eggs in one basket, sure a swiss army knife is awesome to have, but what if you need 2 pairs of pliers, and they not only are on the same device, but that device has either been stolen or is non functioning?

Its like stocks, you may be in a sure thing, but people are involved ,and while it may be a good wager, are your really wanting to risk your house on it?

greygray
Nov 6, 2009, 02:04 AM
Interesting. This has potential but it could pose a security threat if it lands in the hands of hackers..

SeaFox
Nov 6, 2009, 02:13 AM
Tsing siusam jyttoi hunggwek.
Please mind the gap.
Densha to hōmu to no aida ga hiroku aite orimasu no de, ashimoto ni go-chūi kudasai.
As there is a wide space between the train and the platform, please watch your step

But seriously, I don't see the iPhone becoming an ecash device like in Japan for some time.

Ping Guo
Nov 6, 2009, 02:24 AM
Japan (http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/index.php/digital_tokyo/articles/rfid_japans_experience_with_rfid_phones_and_e_cash/) has been using this technology since 2004. DoCoMo launched phones with embedded chips that you could use as a subway pass, to buy train tickets, and to make purchases in convenience stores.

And as other posters mentioned, these RFID cards are common in metro passes - London's Oyster card, Hong Kong's Octopus card, and here in Shanghai we have the Jiaotong card, to name a few. Beats having to run your pass through the strip each time.

I welcome the addition to future iPhone models, as long as we're given the choice to completely disable the features if desired. And Apple should include a free tin foil hat.:D

MorphingDragon
Nov 6, 2009, 02:24 AM
Densha to hōmu to no aida ga hiroku aite orimasu no de, ashimoto ni go-chūi kudasai.
As there is a wide space between the train and the platform, please watch your step

But seriously, I don't see the iPhone becoming an ecash device like in Japan for some time.

Now I really wanna live in Japan! I guess I'll have to go back and finish learning the basics of Japanese though. :( New Zealand has GoBus cards, but I think thats chip not RFID.

scottness
Nov 6, 2009, 03:46 AM
I have the passcode enabled on my iPhone, to protect my data if the phone is stolen. But I'd like to have a proximity indicator so that I didn't need to enter the passcode if the phone was, say, in my house. I can imagine that this might be possible with RFID.

I like this idea.

I don't know, maybe profiling potential war-protesters and figuring out the hierarchy and stop it from the source before it happens. Nothing that they can't use FaceBook or Twitter for, but it would be easier to track down a person with RFID. Even a cellphone can be ditched at the last minute. :D

You are scaring me. You can keep your RFID off of me.

NightFox
Nov 6, 2009, 04:10 AM
I used to see an exciting, brave new world ahead, full of the advances of technology. Now whenever I see exciting new tech, I just think "what a shame that'll never happen because of the foil-hatted brigade". Some of the paranoid "logic" I see in here baffles me.

Do people really think that our governments have vast (and I mean VAST) departments of people tracking everywhere we go and everything we do via CCTV cameras, our SatNav recent locations and our iTunes and Amazon buying habits? And jeez, so what if they do? It's the entirely different issue of what they do that matters, if a government (or criminal) decides you're a target, good old fashioned surveillance is going to provide them with the information they need anyway.

Besides, I don't see many people saying that our almost total reliance on credit cards and cashpoints (ATMs) has lead to an Orwellian state, despite the fact that your credit card and cash withdrawal records give one single company a great insight into both your spending habits and your movements, but so what?

Think about 3 things:
1. How much data already exists concerning your lifestyle?
2. How could this information be used against you?
3. How many "if's" did your answer to question 2 include? How likely are those "if's" (without letting fantasy affect your answer)

When did we get so paranoid about people knowing things about us, or did our egos just get so big that we suddenly thought we actually mattered to these people? At the end of the day, if a company sends me targetted advertising based on my location or spending habits, I'd argue that this is actually preferable to the amount of junk advertising I receive that is totally irrelevant to me.

There's a massive gap between an ability to misuse a technology and a will to misuse it. I have an ability to kill you, but I have no will to do so. Am I bad? Some people will always have the malicious will, even if there has always been an alternative means of achieving the same result, but that is a risk that has existed with, but not necessarily been increased with, nearly every new technology.

christian_k
Nov 6, 2009, 04:14 AM
My car uses an RFID ignition system (push button start) and some credit cards are already RFID capable...this is theoretically possible if the iPhone had an RFID chip in it.

- Even most cars that still use a traditional lock for ignition use an RFID in the key for aditional security. Usualy you can turn on ignition without the RFID, but some other important system (like fuel injection) is locked. This is the case with my 12 year old inexpensive city car and nearly every other car in use today.

- Several years ago I worked in a big office building where all doors could be opened with an RFID. Imagine a "master key" for a big building is lost - every lock has to be changed - very expensive. With RFID they just delete the lost tag from the system.

- A friend is a customer of a car sharing system. He can open and drive any of these cars using an RFID and it is billied automaticly.

- In October I did my first marathon. Yes, there are great things in live without computers. Or not? Everyone got a tag, RFID provides precise finish and intermediate times for thousends of people.

There are and will be so many applications for RFID....

Christian

liquidsuns
Nov 6, 2009, 04:21 AM
I don't know, maybe profiling potential war-protesters and figuring out the hierarchy and stop it from the source before it happens.

War-protesters? LOL!

You guys are getting really paranoid here. Tracking our movement? Collecting information about us? For what purpose? What are you guys so afraid is going to happen?

This is like people getting so concerned that google is collecting information about what you do on the internet and your emails. Who cares? What are you doing that is so secretive?

What do you guys think people are doing with this information that's so scary? If you just have a problem with privacy, I can understand that, but what terrible things are you thinking is going on here?

If there is going to be some strange secret facility where 350 million US citizens are illegally tracked and monitored twenty-four hours a day by a strange secret branch of covert government agents, they will use this information for....yep, advertisement.

NightFox
Nov 6, 2009, 04:35 AM
Most people who use the London Underground (and that's a few million people) use an RFID "Oyster" card, that you top up with cash from time to time and then it is debited every time you swipe it through a barrier. It's a great implementation of the technology, and there are already some credit cards that now combine the Oyster card RFID. I'd love to see this embedded in my iPhone as well.

And no, I'm not concerned that Boris Johnson can see that I travelled from Liverpool Street to North Acton last Tuesday.

ratGT
Nov 6, 2009, 06:37 AM
Robocop, HERE I COME!!! :eek::D

Supa_Fly
Nov 6, 2009, 08:10 AM
Right. Because rather than just SEEING kids, they'll somehow create a "child's clothes detector." Uh huh.

You need to read a few credible articles on the net to KNOW there are RFID detectors. Same ignorance of "oh I can see my kids, nobody would ever take them. There are so many kids in my neighborhood" - is the reason why there is Neighborhood Watch, Amber Alert, Disney parks gps wrist tracking systems for kids! I live in a neighborhood where a 9yr old girl was kidnapped and brutally killed. I look out the window EVERY morning to see the memorial in the parkette with her picture: and I'm terribly sorry for her parents, yet thank GOD that our hood (not the best) is more aware of what's going on. Look up "Holy Jones" and read the stories.

@NT1440, As far as I can tell Apple was amongst the LAST phones to use Bluetooth and enabled A2DP; and as YET to enable 802.11n (which their other products have). I used Bluetooth some 9yrs ago on an Ericsson T39m. THAT is using future technologies. I pit it to you again JUST how much more convenient will RFID readers would make your day??

Most people who use the London Underground (and that's a few million people) use an RFID "Oyster" card, that you top up with cash from time to time and then it is debited every time you swipe it through a barrier. It's a great implementation of the technology, and there are already some credit cards that now combine the Oyster card RFID. I'd love to see this embedded in my iPhone as well.

And no, I'm not concerned that Boris Johnson can see that I travelled from Liverpool Street to North Acton last Tuesday.

Great use of the technology, but does this really improve the traffic significantly that using the SIM security cards that are on say your bankcard or credit card?

NightFox
Nov 6, 2009, 08:46 AM
Great use of the technology, but does this really improve the traffic significantly that using the SIM security cards that are on say your bankcard or credit card?

I'd say yes, because it's the difference for me of removing my wallet from my back pocket, holding it over the card reader, and putting it back in my jeans pocket. That I can do virtually without breaking my stride, so it's only the slight delay in passing through the barrier that slows me down. Compare that to a SIM card, I'd have to take my wallet out of my pocket, remove the card from the wallet, insert the card into the reader (takes longer than just holding over a proximity reader and more or less requires you to stand still, plus elderly people take longer to align card with slot). Then I've got to remove my card and replace it in my wallet and return wallet to pocket. I'd say the removal and replacement of the card from my wallet and having to insert and remove it from a SIM reader are going to slow me down significantly.

Multiply that by the amount of people passing through each ticket barrier every day, and I think that makes a massive difference.

RebelScum
Nov 6, 2009, 09:09 AM
Nope, don't trust it. Not yet, anyway. I need to know it's secure before using something like that.

The ability to use my phone to unlock my car is more of a PITA than anything else; it's not like I won't have my car keys. (And I drive a car that's impossible to lock the keys in.)

I won;t say there's not potential for something like this, but I just feel uncomfortable using tech this new.

Rotator
Nov 6, 2009, 09:14 AM
Well I'm sure if Apple would put something like an RFID in an iPhone they would surely make it safe..


..Wouldn't they?!

knewsom
Nov 6, 2009, 09:51 AM
Well, the thing is, it's not like the iPhone would be able to emulate numerous RFID tags simultaneously and in the background. You'd probably need to be running the app, and have the key selected. The bonus for this, however, is that you have a backup of your various "keys", on your phone. I have an RFID tag to get into my apt building, my wife has one too, and one for work, and we each have one for the Metro. If I accidentally lost my keys, at least I'd be able to get in the building, or if I lost my wallet, I could get home.

This won't replace these things, not yet, but it might be a useful backup. It'd also be good for my friends to be able to copy my "key" and get into my building without the rigamarole of calling, etc.

Drumjim85
Nov 6, 2009, 10:03 AM
RFID isn't secure - Mytbusters (link) (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/02/mythbusters-rfid-hacking-episode-canned-by-credit-card-company-l/)

RFID isn't secure - Passports (link) (http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/02/video-hacker-war-drives-san-francisco-cloning-rfid-passports/)

NightFox
Nov 6, 2009, 10:07 AM
I won;t say there's not potential for something like this, but I just feel uncomfortable using tech this new.

New? You're joking, right?

Nuvi
Nov 6, 2009, 10:11 AM
If there is going to be some strange secret facility where 350 million US citizens are illegally tracked and monitored twenty-four hours a day by a strange secret branch of covert government agents, they will use this information for....yep, advertisement.

Don't you guys already have such an agency?!? NSA... Not governed by actual law but an presidental mandate. I thought echelon was monitoring lot more then 350 milj people. LOL

Regarding advertising JCDecaux has done tests with RFID chips and I would be very surpriced if Clear Channel hasn't done the same.

RebelScum
Nov 6, 2009, 10:36 AM
Well I'm sure if Apple would put something like an RFID in an iPhone they would surely make it safe..


..Wouldn't they?!

If you believe that I have some land in Florida to sell you.

You're kidding right?

It's not on my old phone, so lemme do some quick math...nope, not kidding.

It's smarmy comments from people like you that make me wish you hadn't interrupted your marathon WOW session to take the time to post it.

Trek2100
Nov 6, 2009, 10:42 AM
Ooooooo, ooooo, I have an idea. This would prevent any retail theft thereby reducing the cost of most all products since billions are lost annually due to theft. Okay, ready for this? Implant the chip into everyones head, have scanners at all store entrances and exits. When exiting the store, scan the item(s), transmit the information to the chip which automatically bills your credit card. No credit card? Then debits your checking account. No way of paying? Chip melts, solving all retail theft problems:D. Of course, I'M JOKING! Considering some of the responses on this thread there may be those who believe it. However, what are the possibilities:confused:?

*LTD*
Nov 6, 2009, 10:44 AM
In Soviet Amerika, iPhone keeps track of you!

LOL, classic.

NT1440
Nov 6, 2009, 10:46 AM
RFID isn't secure - Mytbusters (link) (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/02/mythbusters-rfid-hacking-episode-canned-by-credit-card-company-l/)

RFID isn't secure - Passports (link) (http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/02/video-hacker-war-drives-san-francisco-cloning-rfid-passports/)

You realize that RFID is an umbrella term right? We don't even know the specifics of what kind of tech they'd be using.

Stately
Nov 6, 2009, 11:04 AM
Dangerous territory . . :(

Trek2100
Nov 6, 2009, 11:24 AM
Dangerous territory . . :(

Totally agree!

BuddyTronic
Nov 6, 2009, 11:39 AM
Ridiculous amounts of paranoia in this thread. Other parts of the world have embraced this technology for years.



Indeed!

If you don't like RFID - you can put a shield around your RFID tag. This is quite simple to do and could make the RFID tag "invisible" until the end user wants to expose it for something they want - like pay for parking or get a Pepsi from a machine, or movie ticket etc etc.

Hey most of these guys probably already wear tinfoil hats already right? And I'll bet most of these folks are also the same ones who want to protect their precious iPhone from scratches, so they use an iPhone case already. Well it would not take much to put shielding right into an iPhone case.


Hey - for those paranoid one's out there - you all got your bluetooth on? If you leave it on and you walk by my friends door, he has your MAC ID logged right now! In this way my friend tracks the mailman, and can be sure that it's not a burglar. (together with his home automation hobby system) If it IS a burglar, and the burglar leaves his Bluetooth on, he has that MAC ID too!

Oooooh scary -

Rodimus Prime
Nov 6, 2009, 11:45 AM
I can see this as a good thing providing the security is increased on it which is lets face it pretty bad.

As it stands currently when we go out in public we all carry 3 objects with us.
1. Wallet
2. Keys
3. Cell phone.

Over time I see the Cell phone starting to replace Wallet and Keys. with just a cell phone we will be able to open lock doors as we currently do with RFID cards, unlock and start our cars as this tech is already starting to get into cars with push button start. No more messing with keys to get in and out of your car.
Many credit cards use RFID tech. I find it really convent but the security on it is largely lacking and it is way to easy to steal the info.

Hell people say go cash only but in todays world we are becoming very quickly a cashless society. Most everything we buy any more is with plasic. It used to be $100 cash would be spent in a week or 2. Same person will now go weeks with maybe just a 20 in there pocket. I know I will go months with just $40 bucks before I even need to get more cash. Before I lost my job I was going months between getting more cash and that was with a monthly expenses of 1500-2000.

Clayne
Nov 6, 2009, 12:03 PM
Government tracking my every move?

For what purpose, exactly? How am I that important? I mean, I'm flattered, but it might be a waste. If they let Noam Chomsky walk around then I should be golden!

They're more than welcome to track me, but if they're looking for mysterious secrets and earth-shattering excitement they could probably do better.

I guess I'll go and watch some "subversive" South Park or something, LOL.

There would be cameras in the house or they would be viewing my every move remotely, listening in and I'd be all like. . . "oh hi guys, if you can hear me I'm going to brush my teeth now. Then I'm going to hop in the shower, but keep in mind your picture might steam up. And then I'm off to buy bread. Should I go for a baguette or a marble rye, what do you guys think? And my condo doesn't get a lot of southern light, so I was thinking maybe I'll go for a nice lamp or something. Should I spring for the IKEA sale tomorrow? I dunno . ."

First, I think that mentality shows a clear misunderstanding of why upholding civil liberties and civil rights is important. It's more than an individual issue. Just because you aren't subversive in any way, doesn't mean you have the right to jeopardize the rights of those who are.

Second, this isn't paranoia. It's legitimate concern, and if that's 'unreasonable' by todays standards, then I've completely underestimated the urge in our culture to move along without questioning anything.

skestes
Nov 6, 2009, 12:06 PM
I'm wondering if they are including an RFID tag simply so the prototypes can be tracked and accounted for as they move around or out of the buildings.

Being just a rumor it's hard to say what accurate.

harlinator
Nov 6, 2009, 12:23 PM
Do people really think that our governments have vast (and I mean VAST) departments of people tracking everywhere we go and everything we do via CCTV cameras, our SatNav recent locations and our iTunes and Amazon buying habits? And jeez, so what if they do? It's the entirely different issue of what they do that matters, if a government (or criminal) decides you're a target, good old fashioned surveillance is going to provide them with the information they need anyway.
Oh, are you a government employee? It doesn't take a vast amount of people... just ONE! You trying to tell me that it takes a VAST amount of people to do a paper trail of a fraud suspect? No, just one cop man...
I wouldn't argue your comment about 10 years ago but just look @ the triangulation of cell towers for approximate positioning... if you have a cell phone and made a call around the time of the crime and were in the vicinity and there was a witness to your presence... your done!
Since 911 they have tons of measures and resources that they can exploit...
How do you think these people get caught? This world is more connected now than ever in history and YES... they CAN AND WILL TRACK YOU IF THEY WANT TO!
But you know this... you work on the inside he he...

knewsom
Nov 6, 2009, 12:49 PM
RFID isn't as great a risk as you think. When you get down to it, NOTHING is secure. If someone wants your credit card number, they can get it at the gas pump or from a delivery receipt where the rub the number. If they want your house key, they can take a photo or a rubbing when you give the valet your keys. If they want access to your garage, they can record the radio signal key, same for your car/alarm. Even if you have fingerprint ID security, that can be easily circumvented JUST BY OBTAINING YOUR FINGERPRINT. The point is, NOTHING is secure, and if you're really worried, get a dog that weighs 50 lbs or more, that's the single best thing you can do to be safe. If you're concerned about RFID and you already have a cell-phone, then you're just an IDIOT.

As has already been stated, you can easily shield RFID. I don't think I've seen anyone mention this, but it's (the passive systems, like credit cards, passports etc) EXTREMELY short range. Keeping your "keys" on your phone would be EXCELLENT because you could turn them off without keeping your wallet in a brass-mesh bag.

NightFox
Nov 6, 2009, 02:24 PM
It's not on my old phone, so lemme do some quick math...nope, not kidding.

It's smarmy comments from people like you that make me wish you hadn't interrupted your marathon WOW session to take the time to post it.

I was merely pointing out that RFID isn't new technology - putting it on a phone doesn't change that.

Supa_Fly
Nov 6, 2009, 04:10 PM
I'd say yes, because it's the difference for me of removing my wallet from my back pocket, holding it over the card reader, and putting it back in my jeans pocket. That I can do virtually without breaking my stride, so it's only the slight delay in passing through the barrier that slows me down. Compare that to a SIM card, I'd have to take my wallet out of my pocket, remove the card from the wallet, insert the card into the reader (takes longer than just holding over a proximity reader and more or less requires you to stand still, plus elderly people take longer to align card with slot). Then I've got to remove my card and replace it in my wallet and return wallet to pocket. I'd say the removal and replacement of the card from my wallet and having to insert and remove it from a SIM reader are going to slow me down significantly.

Multiply that by the amount of people passing through each ticket barrier every day, and I think that makes a massive difference.

Fair enough ... save for the elderly. Picking on the elderly is not cool (I kid) they'll be slow no matter what. I'll argue that I rather risk dropping a SIM card than my, or your, iPhone. Sorry I wan't clear about using SIM card ... I was referring to that SIM card chip now in MasterCards and soon on Visa's (is this still in pilot?) where you can wave it above a proximity sensor. Also you can always leave this card out on the dashboard or center cubby compartment for quick retrieval. Would your iPhone not be plugged into cigarette lighter &/ charger connector to the car stereo anyway?

Well I'm sure if Apple would put something like an RFID in an iPhone they would surely make it safe..
..Wouldn't they?!

I'm worried about security. If my phone is stolen - it'll still take me time to get to a pc/internet device to remote wipe/lock the phone. If remote lock/wipe would disable this RFID's tech from being used to debit my bank account then cool.

knewsom
Nov 6, 2009, 05:23 PM
If remote lock/wipe would disable this RFID's tech from being used to debit my bank account then cool.

You really think it wouldn't be? Also, password protect your phone.

RBR2
Nov 6, 2009, 05:27 PM
FLASH, or a microSD card slot or most any other improvement before this. Or even better syncing between multiple Macs.

Full of Win
Nov 6, 2009, 06:09 PM
Well I'm sure if Apple would put something like an RFID in an iPhone they would surely make it safe..


..Wouldn't they?!


Apple would try to make it safe, but when the prize is so rich as personal CC data and the like, it gives a hell of an incentive for bad guys to circumvent it. There is that grey zone between easy enough for intended sources to access and unintended sources not to access that will be taken advantage of.

twoodcc
Nov 6, 2009, 06:33 PM
now this would be great. i've learned a little about rfid tags from the army

Bizzilmcgizzle
Nov 6, 2009, 06:51 PM
A high def camera with a manual focus and zoom would make me happier. Why do we need an easier way to spend money? I like the idea that if I don't have enough change to buy a ticket on the train, that I can get away with a little slide by and get home! Oh and have my iPhone at the same time! I know my arguement involves an example of a crime, but all im saying is that it still is nice mentally to think that I have options durring a tough time. As much as it is annoying to use, I like cash :-). Mainly because I have to restrict myself from the conveience of cards. It's so easy! I still have money if I have a card in my hand!! :-). But a phone I can buy stuff with would make me need to go to a AA for debt. Wait... Is there such a thing?

Anyway. My vote is no apple. Don't do it! And being a share holder I have a vote right!? :-)

720p recording would be even cooler

rhett7660
Nov 7, 2009, 03:45 AM
I for one would love to see something like this in the phone.....I can see some pretty cool things coming from this.

MacKiddyWiddy
Nov 7, 2009, 04:05 AM
hmm i'm in 2 minds about this.. if they make it secure enough then i'm all for it, but if they don't... http://macblog.***********/imgs/signature_SmileyFace.jpg

FranklynRecords
Nov 7, 2009, 04:36 AM
Some of the people on here need to go and research RFID chips and then wake up - I think we need to do everything we can to stop this technology - Its basically like having a global tracking chip on you - I already have one in my new passport!! - and the implications of allowing this to flourish?.....well our children will not thank us for it. All these little stepping stones that you see with this technology will lead to a complacency, which in turn will lead to us implanting these things in our damn necks or something!!! Always ask why before saying BUY!!

Peace :)

scottness
Nov 7, 2009, 05:37 AM
Dangerous territory . . :(

I don't like it one bit.

knewsom
Nov 7, 2009, 02:37 PM
Some of the people on here need to go and research RFID chips and then wake up - I think we need to do everything we can to stop this technology - Its basically like having a global tracking chip on you - I already have one in my new passport!! - and the implications of allowing this to flourish?.....well our children will not thank us for it. All these little stepping stones that you see with this technology will lead to a complacency, which in turn will lead to us implanting these things in our damn necks or something!!! Always ask why before saying BUY!!

Peace :)

I seriously hope you're joking. A global tracking chip? My god, sounds almost as big of a tracking beacon as as as... A CELL PHONE. Except, ya know, with a range of a couple of feet.

Seriously. Do your research before you go fearmongering with your conspiracy theories. You sound like an idiot.

cmaier
Nov 7, 2009, 03:12 PM
I seriously hope you're joking. A global tracking chip? My god, sounds almost as big of a tracking beacon as as as... A CELL PHONE. Except, ya know, with a range of a couple of feet.

Seriously. Do your research before you go fearmongering with your conspiracy theories. You sound like an idiot.

Really. And the whole point of a passport is to be tracked. People are nuts.

FranklynRecords
Nov 8, 2009, 04:00 AM
I seriously hope you're joking. A global tracking chip? My god, sounds almost as big of a tracking beacon as as as... A CELL PHONE. Except, ya know, with a range of a couple of feet.

Seriously. Do your research before you go fearmongering with your conspiracy theories. You sound like an idiot.

Er, your do your research IDIOT!! - A RFID chip can be tracked globally!!!
I will wait for your apology!!

FranklynRecords
Nov 8, 2009, 04:09 AM
Really. And the whole point of a passport is to be tracked. People are nuts.

And the point of a passport is supposed to be Border control - Not to be tracked!! But now we might all be suspect terrorists - We have to be tracked.

cmaier
Nov 8, 2009, 12:49 PM
And the point of a passport is supposed to be Border control - Not to be tracked!! But now we might all be suspect terrorists - We have to be tracked.

You make no sense. Passports are so that the country you visit can track you.

RFID can only be tracked for yards. Your cellphone is far easier to track.

As long as your fear of science and technology are leading you to conspiracy theories, at least worry about the right thing

knewsom
Nov 8, 2009, 02:40 PM
Er, your do your research IDIOT!! - A RFID chip can be tracked globally!!!
I will wait for your apology!!

You'll be waiting a long time, because it's not coming. Put down the bong, sir.

NT1440
Nov 8, 2009, 02:44 PM
You'll be waiting a long time, because it's not coming. Put down the bong, sir.

Come on man, not all of us bong enthusiasts are conspiracy nuts.

As for the RFID as a tracking system, I take it none of you guys have cell phones or computers right? Wait, then how are you guys posting on here? Oh right.....
;)

Its called critical thinking, try it out sometime

knewsom
Nov 8, 2009, 03:59 PM
Come on man, not all of us bong enthusiasts are conspiracy nuts.

Oh, certainly not. Some of my best friends are, but as a former bong-enthusiast, I can indeed state quite certainly that it can make some... let's say, a bit gullible.

chris7777
Nov 8, 2009, 11:07 PM
Some of the people on here need to go and research RFID chips and then wake up - I think we need to do everything we can to stop this technology - Its basically like having a global tracking chip on you - I already have one in my new passport!! - and the implications of allowing this to flourish?.....well our children will not thank us for it. All these little stepping stones that you see with this technology will lead to a complacency, which in turn will lead to us implanting these things in our damn necks or something!!! Always ask why before saying BUY!!

Peace :)

we are already there, GPS is a demand, look at the supporters of this technology, its a selling point. Reading a map has become so difficult that it is easier to buy a piece of equipment and a contract for several hundred dollars. Or so they say.

It ultimately is a matter of when this will happen. Businesses and profiteers, make the technology profitable, which they have. All that's left is to expand it, the growth potential is enormous, the only hurdle is convincing the public to foot the bill. Hence the enhancement.

All that can be done is to explain the gross potential for misuse to the uninformed, and let them decide for themselves, if they are willing to trade their anonimity for convienence.

It is much the same way many things are passed through pitchmen.
if the sales pitch is good enough, many people will quite literally buy anything.

Their are roadways in europe quite literally built thousands of years ago still in use.

The notion that technology will somehow preserve, or be preserved for only good and pure usage, is well naive. Sure some of it will be used by law enforcement, but the sheer number of surveillance devices, and listening devices used for recording , that get invariably used for less than upstanding purposes is , indisputable.

RFID is but one of MANY technologies, that has huge potential for misappropriation.
Like many have stated tracking devices are now voluntarily implanted into people.
How many more years will it be before it is a requirement?
This sort of thing is heavily lobbied, just imagine the profits, if it becomes mandatory.

Does anyone really doubt this will happen, especially since their are huge amounts of money to be made from it?

You can call it conspiracy, or paranoia if you want, but it is coming, because it is a guaranteed profit.

I personally want nothing to do with it, it makes me feel dirty. But their are a great deal more out there who can see nothing more than the income it will garner them once they lobby to have the technology incorporated into all aspects of our lives. Big business, and government, they are commonly perceived as separate entities, but if you really look at how they function, and how they scratch each others backs, are they really all that separate and distinct?

Food for thought

cmaier
Nov 8, 2009, 11:18 PM
No, it's not food for thought. We are in an era of Luddites who hear anecdotes of corporate abuse of technology or government oppression and fail to see that science and technology are not inherently moral or immoral, but are necessary pursuits which will inevitably improve our lives.

The same distrust of science leads to intelligent design, failure to innoculate infants, disbelief in global warming, belief that AIDS isn't caused by HIV, and belief in echinacea as a cure for colds.

Tie it together with the young generation believing that their opinion is just as valid as anyone else's (despite the idea that they have no idea what they're talking about), and here we are.

Michael Specter wrote a whole book on this sort of thought process.

chris7777
Nov 10, 2009, 06:58 AM
No, it's not food for thought. We are in an era of Luddites who hear anecdotes of corporate abuse of technology or government oppression and fail to see that science and technology are not inherently moral or immoral, but are necessary pursuits which will inevitably improve our lives.

The same distrust of science leads to intelligent design, failure to innoculate infants, disbelief in global warming, belief that AIDS isn't caused by HIV, and belief in echinacea as a cure for colds.

Tie it together with the young generation believing that their opinion is just as valid as anyone else's (despite the idea that they have no idea what they're talking about), and here we are.

Michael Specter wrote a whole book on this sort of thought process.
so you refute misuse of science by citing misuse of understanding

I never said it was all bad, I said that their is little to no restraint, and that sooner or later someone is going to do something bad with it.

take global warming for example, you cited it, yet it is our love of bigger and better things, and science that has brought it about. smog induced medical ailments. the list goes on.
the notion that science will somehow save us from the havoc wrought by science, is naive at best, if science were in fact so concerned with its consequences, then many of the modern worlds problems would not exist, but they do. plastic islands, acid rain.
You can badmouth people who warn you to pay more attention to the long term effects, of scientific "blessings"
or you can be honest and realize that people, scientist, and luddite, or any group of people make mistakes, and prejudge others often badmouthing them with slanderous accusations based not on fact, or historical evidence, but rather to crush opposition the easiest way they know how.

As for thought processes, again I have said nothing ill of you, yet you insult me numerous times in your post, claiming to know my thoughts, and how they will turn out.

I cited history, and human nature, we always seek out the "best" hence the militarys complete dismissal, of the sword, and crossbow, in favour of modern projectile weapons.

again all I ask is for folks to look at the big picture, and think about these things.

Apple may be a "green" company, but the problem is that they like virtually all other companies, have had to become green, by not considering the long term impact of their business models,

LagunaSol
Nov 10, 2009, 09:51 AM
The same distrust of science leads to intelligent design, failure to innoculate infants, disbelief in global warming, belief that AIDS isn't caused by HIV, and belief in echinacea as a cure for colds.

Need we point out any of the wildly erroneous assertions of "science" over the centuries? :eek:

Humans are flawed, have flawed understanding, and will make flawed arguments, regardless of which side of any fence they reside. Raising "science" as one's banner does not assure victory in any debate.

People don't distrust "science" per se - they distrust our current understanding of it (because it is guaranteed to change).

cmaier
Nov 10, 2009, 11:46 AM
Need we point out any of the wildly erroneous assertions of "science" over the centuries? :eek:

Humans are flawed, have flawed understanding, and will make flawed arguments, regardless of which side of any fence they reside. Raising "science" as one's banner does not assure victory in any debate.

People don't distrust "science" per se - they distrust our current understanding of it (because it is guaranteed to change).

People distrust "science," i.e.: the scientific method. Science is great because, in the face of new evidence, it changes. But people who believe in things based on personal anecdotes rather than testable experiment and observation are the people who think RFID can be "tracked globally" instead of for a few yards, and who believe their cellphones cannot be tracked globally. And no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise.

LagunaSol
Nov 10, 2009, 12:47 PM
People distrust "science," i.e.: the scientific method. Science is great because, in the face of new evidence, it changes.

And that's also the thing about science that earns people's distrust. "Red wine is good for you!" "Now red wine is bad for you!" "Wait, red wine is good for you again!" It never ends, and the constant shifts over time assure an instinctive eye roll from the layman.

Me, I trust neither personal anecdotes nor science. ;)

chris7777
Nov 10, 2009, 08:16 PM
People distrust "science," i.e.: the scientific method. Science is great because, in the face of new evidence, it changes. But people who believe in things based on personal anecdotes rather than testable experiment and observation are the people who think RFID can be "tracked globally" instead of for a few yards, and who believe their cellphones cannot be tracked globally. And no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise.

You claim "people" believe in things based on personal anecdotes , rather than testifyable experiment ,and observation, yet you appear to deny the fact that scientist are people too, and that they , being people are capable, and in many cases willing to distort, and manipulate, facts, to serve them and their goals. I am not saying that all are that way, but that the belief that science is somehow immune from the potential of corruption, is a frankly very dangerous notion, because their are people who have been harmed, and even killed, based upon the "best evidence" available. And unfortunately science is not a panacea, and in many cases it is the actual cause of several of our worlds problems. Or more accurately its quick result allure, and use without the use of wisdom and forethought has been. As for global tracking , you just summed it up, cell phones are capable of being tracked, virtually globally, RFID is really only limited by the implementation of the technology . Are you prepared to have it installed in your automobile, and prepared to be fined, if you exceed the speed limit, or don't stop at the stop light "fast enough" Even though their is no standard on how quickly a light changes from green to red?
thats just one potential use of the technology. It is like the growing number of private photographs that have made their way on to the Internet, many of which are from camera phones, used to take less than altruistic photos of people. Somehow I doubt that those who proposed cell phone cameras, thought they would end up being used in that manner, yet the problem increases daily.

Can we do fill in the blank sure the potential is there, but the real question that science seems to be increasingly divorcing itself from, annulling, might be even more appropriate, is should we do it.

kdarling
Nov 10, 2009, 08:40 PM
Or... we can use RFID for much simpler and nicer purposes.

Imagine if you microtagged all your keys, wallet, shoes, belts, and everything else you lose all the time.

"Need to find your lost socks? There's an app for that!" :)

---

One of my favorite RFID uses is to clip documents with tagged paper clips. Need to know where that information on your law or business case #1130 is? Just ask the building RFID scanners to locate that paperclipped package.

chris7777
Nov 11, 2009, 12:07 PM
It would be nice, if it ended there, but like everything else,it will be used for any and every purpose, good and bad that it can be attached to.

rtdunham
Nov 11, 2009, 06:23 PM
...I trust neither personal anecdotes nor science. ;)

But who then do you trust? It's simplistic and meaningless to say, "myself".

So, do we say, "well, last time i thought i was getting a cold I spun around three times with my index finger on the top of my head (substitute any anecdotal treatment) and I never got the cold, so that works, and i'm going to rely on it instead of medicine and i'm going to recommend it to others and I'm going to impose it on my kids. OR, might we think, hmmm, the spinning-with-finger coincided last time with my not getting a cold: It MIGHT be a treatment, or it might have been coincidence; I need to try it again and again, and talk to lots of others to see if it works for them, before i can even begin to draw a conclusion.

The first example suggests someone with a disregard (or lack of trust) for science. The second example shows one who understands the scientific method. Who's better served?

Or approach the issue from the other extreme: Someone feels a cold coming on, and goes to the doctor for advice. They can do what's recommended while realizing that future research might show the recommended treatment has little effect, or is replaced by a more effective treatment--or even proves to have side effects worse than the treatment. THAT, like the second scenario above, reflects an understanding of the scientific method. The person with this understanding and attitude might decide to follow the doctor's recommendations, or to look for alternatives, or to do nothing. I'd argue the person in that scenario is better able to take care of their health than the person in the initial example, who sees an anecdotal result and doesn't realize why there may be no rational foundation for drawing conclusions from it.

Halamolo
Nov 11, 2009, 08:42 PM
Science says that on 911 the WTC towers and building 7 were brought down by controlled demolition with nano thermite = inside job. That's a fact and anyone with open eyes and common sense can even see that, when you watch those buildings coming down. Now there's food for thought. Some things in this world are not "conspiracy theory", but a reality. So wake up mindless sheeps!

RFID chips planted inside everyones skins is the end of freedom and the beginning of global slavery. And this new idea seems like another totalitarian tiptoe towards that. If Apple is going along with this New World Order agenda, I for one won't be buying their NWO iPhone! Don't let us down Apple!

cmaier
Nov 11, 2009, 08:55 PM
Science says that on 911 the WTC towers and building 7 were brought down by controlled demolition with nano thermite = inside job. That's a fact and anyone with open eyes and common sense can even see that, when you watch those buildings coming down. Now there's food for thought. Some things in this world are not "conspiracy theory", but a reality. So wake up mindless sheeps!

RFID chips planted inside everyones skins is the end of freedom and the beginning of global slavery. And this new idea seems like another totalitarian tiptoe towards that. If Apple is going along with this New World Order agenda, I for one won't be buying their NWO iPhone! Don't let us down Apple!

Paranoid much? Clearly not an engineer or scientist. My father was at 7 WTC and saw the planes hit. Go sell your wackjob theories someplace else.

LagunaSol
Nov 11, 2009, 08:56 PM
Science says that on 911 the WTC towers and building 7 were brought down by controlled demolition with nano thermite = inside job. That's a fact and anyone with open eyes and common sense can even see that, when you watch those buildings coming down. Now there's food for thought. Some things in this world are not "conspiracy theory", but a reality. So wake up mindless sheeps!

RFID chips planted inside everyones skins is the end of freedom and the beginning of global slavery. And this new idea seems like another totalitarian tiptoe towards that. If Apple is going along with this New World Order agenda, I for one won't be buying their NWO iPhone! Don't let us down Apple!

Wow. :rolleyes: