monster cable surge protector [Archive]

westom

Nov 8, 2009, 11:44 AM

In my experience the monster ones tend to sacrifice themselves in an effort to save the devices attached to it. Your observation verses my decades of design experience? Which one knows?

The surge confronts the appliance and surge protector equally. All appliances contain protection. A surge too small to overwhelm protection inside the appliance easily destroys your Monster Cable protector? You call that protection?

That's the scam that gets the naive to recommend a protector. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts and some fancy paint. Sell it for $60 or $150. Why do TV salesmen spend so much time selling the protector? They know where the profit lies. It’s not a protector for protection. It’s a protector for profits. It is recommended by a majority only because retail sales promote it and because an overwhelming majority have never heard of the 'whole house' protector.

How has protection been done for over 100 years? The concept used in 'whole house' protectors. What will magically stop what three miles of sky could not? Monster. Monster has a long history of selling scam - including speaker wire with polarity. Monster was selling $7 speaker wire for $70 because they claimed speaker wire has polarity and their wire had that polarity marked. And many also recommended that Monster speaker wire - using the same logic that promotes their protector.

The only effective protector make a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Monster even avoids discussing that. Why should they. Monster is not selling to this engineer with decades of design knowledge. Monster is selling to those who used hearsay and speculation to convert assumptions into fact. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts sells for $150. And it does not even claim to provide protection in its numeric specs. No problem. The least informed always ignore the numbers. Assume it is more expensive; therefore must be better. Scam.

puckhead193

Nov 8, 2009, 12:38 PM

So i was going to go best buy to buy a new one, any recommendations of other brands?

NightStorm

Nov 8, 2009, 12:57 PM

Your observation verses my decades of design experience? Which one knows?

The surge confronts the appliance and surge protector equally. All appliances contain protection. A surge too small to overwhelm protection inside the appliance easily destroys your Monster Cable protector? You call that protection?

That's the scam that gets the naive to recommend a protector. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts and some fancy paint. Sell it for $60 or $150. Why do TV salesmen spend so much time selling the protector? They know where the profit lies. It’s not a protector for protection. It’s a protector for profits. It is recommended by a majority only because retail sales promote it and because an overwhelming majority have never heard of the 'whole house' protector.

How has protection been done for over 100 years? The concept used in 'whole house' protectors. What will magically stop what three miles of sky could not? Monster. Monster has a long history of selling scam - including speaker wire with polarity. Monster was selling $7 speaker wire for $70 because they claimed speaker wire has polarity and their wire had that polarity marked. And many also recommended that Monster speaker wire - using the same logic that promotes their protector.

The only effective protector make a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Monster even avoids discussing that. Why should they. Monster is not selling to this engineer with decades of design knowledge. Monster is selling to those who used hearsay and speculation to convert assumptions into fact. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts sells for $150. And it does not even claim to provide protection in its numeric specs. No problem. The least informed always ignore the numbers. Assume it is more expensive; therefore must be better. Scam.

I'm confused; what are we arguing about? I thought I agreed with you. :confused:

skye12

Nov 8, 2009, 02:26 PM

Kind of funny argument about the three miles of sky. Sounds like
you do not believe in the concept of a surge protector. Well, they do work.
Just like circuit breakers work.

Monster stuff is expensive, but they do use good materials. Their basic surge units aren't that overpriced. I got one at Amazon for around $35.
The hdmi cables are the obscene ripoff, when you can get
superb ones at places like monoprice.com for a fraction of the price.

RedTomato

Nov 8, 2009, 04:28 PM

That's the scam that gets the naive to recommend a protector. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts and some fancy paint. Sell it for $60 or $150. Why do TV salesmen spend so much time selling the protector? They know where the profit lies. It’s not a protector for protection. It’s a protector for profits. It is recommended by a majority only because retail sales promote it and because an overwhelming majority have never heard of the 'whole house' protector.

I dislike Monster on general principles. They're the same as the guys that sell wooden stereo knobs that enhance your sound for $150. Real high-end electrical products have proper engineering information and specs on them available. Monster don't.

You seem like you know what you're talking about. What other surge protectors do you recommend? What about these of use who can't install whole-house protectors?

CylonGlitch

Nov 8, 2009, 04:40 PM

I'm at home watching TV and all of a sudden my TV goes out and my monster surge protect is making a terrible noise. Did it blow? My tv/cable box etc won't turn on...

Sorry, but you blew it when you purchased something that says "Monster" on it. Seriously, what everyone else is staying is true. They are no better then anything else out there, and often are actually worse. :(

Any of the surge protectors will work.

uraniumwilly

Nov 8, 2009, 06:09 PM

Seriously, what everyone else is staying is true. They are no better then anything else out there, and often are actually worse. :(

Any of the surge protectors will work.

Unfortunately this has been my experience too. For many reasons I don't touch Monster. Terrible company.

westom

Nov 8, 2009, 07:52 PM

So i was going to go best buy to buy a new one, any recommendations of other brands?
At what point do you first ask some embarrassing questions. Such as what does it do and how does it do it? What does it actually claim to do in numbers - the manufacturer's numeric specs?

These are damning questions that show why an overwhelming majority are blindly paying so much for a scam.

A protector circuit sold by Monster Cable for $150 is the same circuit found in the grocery store protector selling for $7. They both have the same quality. But one has the massive profit margin. And because it sells for so much more (and has fancier paint), then many recommend the Monster - using the exact same logic that proved Saddam had WMDs.

Again, what does it do. Where are the numbers? Where is the numeric spec that says what it actually does? Damning questions that an overwhelming majority never ask since eyes often glaze over as soon as numbers appear. Not an exaggeration. Seven out of ten have glazed eyes as soon as numbers appear. Which is why scams work so profitably.

What does a protector do? From the NIST (US government research agency):
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,
> where it can do no harm.

What does Monster get recommended for? Stopping, block, arresting, suppressing, or absorbing surges. That cannot happen. But subjective claims from Monster are enough for a majority to believe Monster and to ignore the NIST.

The NIST then describes the Monster Cable:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by
> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be
> useless if grounding is not done properly.

Monster Cable has no earth ground.

Earth ground is the only effective solution. No way around that requirement. Those who cannot hand that 'whole house' protector to the landlord and have it installed are mostly screwed.

However one can kludge a 'whole house' protector. Buy a plug-in protector with the largest number of joules. Cut that six foot power cord as short as possible. Find the AC receptacle closest to the breaker box. Pray that the breaker box earthing exists and is short to earth ground. Plug that modified protector into that closest receptacle. Move electronics to receptacles farthest from breaker box (that separation enhances protection).

Hopefully the kludge will earth more of a surge through the earth ground. Hopefully the separation from protector and appliance is far enough to encourage that surge to seek the earthing electrode - not seek earth destructively via electronics.

But again, it is a kludge with all the compromises and risks associate with kludges. It may or may not protect from typically destructive surges if the ground is short enough (and exists). However destructive surges occur typically once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even in the same town.

See the numbers? Notice what does not come with plug-in protector recommendations - numbers. Even the kludge is about numbers.

What do cable companies recommend? Not using that protector on their cable. It diminishes signals and does not provide effective protection. It may even earth a surge destructively through the nearby TV. Cable companies earth their cable where it enters the building. Earthing that is only as good as what you provided. Earthing that means no TV damage even from direct lightning strikes - if every incoming utility wire is earthed short to that single point ground.

And yes, we still build new homes as if the transistor did not exist. The principles have been well proven by over 100 years of science and experience. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Greenhoe

Nov 8, 2009, 07:58 PM

This is Gods way of punishing you for wasting your money on a Monster Cable product which have been proven over and over again to have the exact same quality as a other products.

Monster Cable HDMI Cable = $129.
Monoprice HDMI Cable = $8.99
Knowing I didn't get ripped off - Priceless.

westom

Nov 8, 2009, 08:03 PM

I'm confused; what are we arguing about? I thought I agreed with you. Where did I say we disagreed?

Fundamental to any useful discussion: many technical reasons why must be provided. That was the lesson from history - Saddam's WMDs. So many ‘knew’ without any reasons why and without any numbers.

Useful answer on surge protection involves reams and layers of facts with numbers.

Obvious if using numbers - circuit breakers do not provide surge protection. Any protector that fails during a surge does not provide effective protection. Monster Cable (like Belkin, APC, Tripplite, and others featuring the same protector circuit) does not even claim to provide that protection. See its spec numbers. Will it somehow stop what three miles of sky could not (which is what a circuit breaker would have to do)? That 'stopping' is what myths claim. So the manufacturer provides no numbers - does not even claim that protection.

How to identify each ineffective protector. 1) No dedicated wire for that short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. Monster Cable fails both requirements. But then its purpose is not surge protection. Purpose is profits.

An effective 'whole house' protector (Cutler-Hammer) sells in Lowes for less than $50. Other responsible companies selling effective solutions include General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Intermatic, Leviton, Kieson, Clipsal, and Square D.

hitekalex

Nov 8, 2009, 11:52 PM

So i was going to go best buy to buy a new one, any recommendations of other brands?

I would say any brand that doesn't contain the word "Monster" would be a good start!

killerrobot

Nov 9, 2009, 01:07 AM

If you bought the surge protector within the last two or three years, I'd call monster and ask for a replacement first. If that doesn' work, I've always preferred APC. No matter what brand it is, make sure it has a built-in circuit breaker and a high Joule rating if you have very expensive equipment plugged into it.

Corrode

Nov 9, 2009, 01:39 AM

Well it seems that westcom is just full of information, but unfortunately it seems that he's spent most of his life learning about surge protectors and nothing about social skills. Who has time to read that novel he posted above?

I'm still wondering (as I'm sure the OP is) what would be the best bang for buck surge protector to purchase.

Your observation verses my decades of design experience? Which one knows?

That's when you disagreed.

westom

Nov 9, 2009, 09:13 AM

I would say any brand that doesn't contain the word "Monster" would be a good start!
The same protector circuit in the Monster Cable is also sold in APC, Belkin, and Tripplite. View their numeric specs. Each has the same protection specs as the Monster - does not list numbers for protection from each type of surge. Each is equivalent to a protector selling at a profit for $7 at the grocery store. Monster simply saw a scam and then charged even more for the same protector.

Again, how to identify the ineffective protector. 1) Has no dedicated wire for that short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earth ground. APC, Belkin, Tripplite, and the $7 grocery store protector also meet every requirement.

Even the NIST describes those APC, et al protectors:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by
> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be
> useless if grounding is not done properly.

Those joules in the APC, et al are just too small to stop or absorb surges. The effective protector connects energy into earth. Energy dissipated in earth does not seek earth ground destructively via household appliances. What Sun Microsystems define for effective protection? From Sun's installation guide:
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The
> plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify
> any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors ...
> should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground
> for the surge energy.

Every facility that must never suffer damage does not waste money on Monster Cable, APC, Belkin, Tripplite, etc. Instead, one 'whole house' protector with proper earthing is installed. Effective protector for about $1 per protected appliance. Did you know your telco installed a 'whole house' protector on everyone's phone line where their wire enters your building? Why? So effective while costing so little money.

No way around this well proven, 100 plus year technology. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

mward333

Nov 9, 2009, 09:30 AM

you can get
superb ones at places like monoprice.com for a fraction of the price.

I'll put in another vote for monoprice.com. If people haven't bought their cables at monoprice.com in the past, it is worth a look. They are great.

chrono1081

Nov 9, 2009, 09:43 AM

Your observation verses my decades of design experience? Which one knows?

The surge confronts the appliance and surge protector equally. All appliances contain protection. A surge too small to overwhelm protection inside the appliance easily destroys your Monster Cable protector? You call that protection?

That's the scam that gets the naive to recommend a protector. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts and some fancy paint. Sell it for $60 or $150. Why do TV salesmen spend so much time selling the protector? They know where the profit lies. It’s not a protector for protection. It’s a protector for profits. It is recommended by a majority only because retail sales promote it and because an overwhelming majority have never heard of the 'whole house' protector.

How has protection been done for over 100 years? The concept used in 'whole house' protectors. What will magically stop what three miles of sky could not? Monster. Monster has a long history of selling scam - including speaker wire with polarity. Monster was selling $7 speaker wire for $70 because they claimed speaker wire has polarity and their wire had that polarity marked. And many also recommended that Monster speaker wire - using the same logic that promotes their protector.

The only effective protector make a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Monster even avoids discussing that. Why should they. Monster is not selling to this engineer with decades of design knowledge. Monster is selling to those who used hearsay and speculation to convert assumptions into fact. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts sells for $150. And it does not even claim to provide protection in its numeric specs. No problem. The least informed always ignore the numbers. Assume it is more expensive; therefore must be better. Scam.

I have to agree Monster is a pure scam company.

Years ago I worked at Circuit City and the monster reps ensured the store would set up phony displays showing "monster cables" vs "regular cables" but the "regular cables" were always either a different type of cable (composite instead of component) or such a horrible cable that it lost signal going through it. I was floored the first time I saw this scam.

Monster just makes up ******** and tech jargon to sound good to buyers. If you could see what the store pays for those $150 monster power strips (Roughly $14) you'd realize how much of a ripoff that company is.

hitekalex

Nov 9, 2009, 12:17 PM

I have to agree Monster is a pure scam company.

Years ago I worked at Circuit City and the monster reps ensured the store would set up phony displays showing "monster cables" vs "regular cables" but the "regular cables" were always either a different type of cable (composite instead of component) or such a horrible cable that it lost signal going through it. I was floored the first time I saw this scam.

Monster just makes up ******** and tech jargon to sound good to buyers. If you could see what the store pays for those $150 monster power strips (Roughly $14) you'd realize how much of a ripoff that company is.

Not to mention, this is a company that engages in frivolous law suites against small businesses. They sued a small company called "Monster Golf" for trademark infringement.

Engadget has a long standing boycott on Monster Cable products.. and I strongly encourage everyone to join it.

BoulderBum

Nov 9, 2009, 01:11 PM

So i was going to go best buy to buy a new one, any recommendations of other brands?

As other stated, forego getting Monster again. Of note is that almost any major brand of surge protector has an equipment warranty so that if it fails, they will replace any equipment that gets fried.

I'd personally recommend the Belkin Conserve, which I reviewed on Amazon here:
http://www.amazon.com/review/RACQ8Z6TK9IRJ/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm

In addition to being a great surge protector, it has an RF remote switch that allows you to cut its power without having to be close to the power strip itself. This lets you reduce standby power usage (devices draw power even when "off") when you're not using your equipment. I estimated that it could save me something like $50 a year in electricity costs (not to mention pollution saved) when I measured my standby power usage, so the thing pays for itself and then some in the first year if you use it right.

westom

Nov 9, 2009, 08:15 PM

As other stated, forego getting Monster again. Of note is that almost any major brand of surge protector has an equipment warranty so that if it fails, they will replace any equipment that gets fried.
A well proven trend observed in free markets. A larger warranty implies a worse product. GM is currently hyping a 5 years 100,000 mile warranty. Therefore GM cars are superior to Honda and Toyota? That is your reasoning.

Instead, read the fine print in that Belkin warranty. It is so chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. But then Belkin is not selling an effective protector. View its numeric specs. It does not even claim protection from the typically destructive surge currents. It is a profit center that works when so many *know* it must be better - and do not post even one numbers to back up that claim.

But again, a big buck warranty implies is it the worst product. Or we can learn from other's experiences. Newsman on 10 Sept 2002 in the newsgroup alt.video.ptv.tivo entitled "SONY TiVo SVR-2000"
> I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for Tivo purposes.
> Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected devices warranty'
> did not help me. I jumped through many hoops, including finding the original
> recept for the surge protector (just under a year old) and I sent my surge protector
> to Belkin (paid for shipping), and was denied my warranty. They gave me a ton of
> crap, including that it was null and void b/c the Tivo was also connected to the coax
> line for cable (this was not mentioned as a thing in the warranty that can nullify it).
> Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said "Belkin at it's sole
> discretion can reject any claim for any reason".

Only proof of effective protection is numeric specs. And principles well proven for over 100 years. The Belkin 1) has no dedicated connection short to earth. 2) Belkin avoids all discussion about earthing. The Belkin is ineffective protection twice over. So they hype a big buck warranty so that the naive (those who don't always demand spec numbers) will recommend it.

Belkin provides the same protection hyped by Monster Cable. Complete with no tech specs that list protection from each type of surge. Monster could not let Belkin reap all the profits. Monster craved that action. Reality did not change. No matter how many times this is posted, some still recommend protector that completely violate this principles: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

BoulderBum

Nov 10, 2009, 01:09 AM

A larger warranty implies a worse product... So they hype a big buck warranty...

Respectfully, I said that EVERY major brand has a warranty and said nothing about specific manufacturers' warranties or warranty amounts (I don't even know what they are). Furthermore, I don't buy your rant. The anecdote you provided presents a good point to be aware of: that you should buy a surge protector with coax surge protection if you're connected to a cable line in one way or another. No surge protector is able to save your equipment if there's an unprotected surge in the coax line (and frankly, as much as I hate companies who dodge warranty replacements, Belkin had a pretty good case in the instance you mentioned as they explicitly state "the coaxial cable line must also be properly connected and installed" to the surge protector).

The Belkin 1) has no dedicated connection short to earth.

Neither does any plug-in surge protector on the market that I know of. Surge protectors with earthing wires are typically designed to protect your whole home, and are installed at your circuit breaker and hooked up to your wiring instead of your electrical outlets. Your suggestion is worth considering, but it's not really a knock against Belkin, per se.

Besides, take a deep breath, I'm simply providing a friendly recommendation on a surge protector that I measured (with a Kill A Watt) would personally save me about $50 a year in energy savings! Feel free to recommend whatever model you will. I'm perfectly comfortable hooking my $3000 worth of equipment up to the Conserve, which I'll add was Popular Mechanics Editor's Choice in 2008.

The gist of my recommendations, however, is I'd consider a power-saving surge protector if you're going to buy a new one. It's better for your wallet and the environment.

Belkin's Conserve has a remote RF switch that you can mount anywhere, while some other manufacturers' products like the "SmartStrip" automatically turn peripherals off completely when it detects the main device shuts off (e.g. if you shut your TV off, the power strip will turn off the outlets to your cable box and game system so they don't unnecessarily draw standby power).

carlgo

Nov 10, 2009, 09:53 AM

... That is why informed homeonwers install one 'whole house' protector with proper earthing. For every protector, this applies: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

All homes, especially those in areas where trees fall on the lines, should have this. They aren't that expensive.

A cheap plug-in protector did save my TV from a nasty surge that wiped out some other unprotected stuff. It fried solid and stank, but it stopped the surge. So, I have to say the circuit-breaker designs do work even if they aren't grounded.

I know all about the Monster discussion, but bought a Monster protector for my HT system. It is well-made and nicely designed with lots of outlets that can actually be accessed. Seems like a good $35 device.

Monster stuff doesn't give you an advantage over other products that actually work, but their products do seem to be sturdy and well-made. For this you pay.

CLuv

Nov 10, 2009, 12:09 PM

Since you're looking for a recommendation. Panamax, problem solved.

http://panamax.com/Products/Default.aspx

Monster sells their s on smokes and mirrors. I watched a Monster device
get hit repeatedly with strikes and went up and smoke while the Panamax did it's job.

Noel Lee is a complete donkey and sells by marketing. It's just like BOSE
Better sound through marketing.

westom

Nov 10, 2009, 07:15 PM

A cheap plug-in protector did save my TV from a nasty surge that wiped out some other unprotected stuff. It fried solid and stank, but it stopped the surge.
IOW that surge was so small as to not harm the TV, but vaporized the protector? Or the protector earthed that surge destructively through appliances on the other side of the room or house. Or other appliances earthed enough surge that the TV's internal protection was sufficient. But the surge was still large enough to destroy the scam protector.

What have you done? Recommend a protector that did nothing useful. Assumed by not learning the science and by using only observation. Observation not tempered by fundamental knowledge is classic junk science reasoning.

You don't know anything without tracing the surge's path. My posts come from decades of doing just that.

Observation without specific technical details and no numbers is classic junk science. First paragraph includes possibilities that were ignored. TV not damaged means the protector did something? So why was the dishwasher, bathroom GFCI, clock radio, doorbell, etc no damaged? Why did you analysis ignore other facts? What protected them? Invisible surge protectors?

Your reasoning must also say why other appliances also were not damage. Otherwise, the conclusion is junk science - the same logic that also proved childhood leukemia was created by electric wires. Ignoring other data (ie other undamaged appliances without protectors) to make a conclusion is junk science.

My surge protector sacrificed itself to save my TV. Reality. If the protector fried, then TV's internal protection saved that TV. How many other appliances performed as earthed protectors for that TV?

Finally - protection is always about where energy dissipates. Energy was permitted inside the building. Therefore no effective protection existed. It is that simple - even proven 100 years ago. Either a surge current is dissipated harmlessly in earth. Or interior damage is directly traceable to human failure.

Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much was the 'so called' cheap protector? $20? Then it was twenty times more expensive - and you still had appliance damage. Either energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth - or effective protection does not exist. That cheap power strip had no earth ground. Did exactly what its manufacturer claimed - ineffective protection.

No way around this fundamental principle: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why do I post reality - and then another post promotes the same scam? Effective protection (that costs so much less money) means no surge energy inside the building. Based upon so many posts in this thread, one can conclude they were smarter 100 years ago.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. How many more scam protectors without earthing will be promoted only on hearsay or observation?

Since you're looking for a recommendation. Panamax, problem solved.
panamax.com
Where is a manufacturer numeric spec that claims any protection? Panamax makes no such claim. Exampled: another post promotes Panamax - and does not even say why. Classic example of a scam: recommendation without even one technical fact.

Panamax does not claim protection. How to identify the Panamax (ie Furman) as ineffective? 1) No dedicated wire for that short connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer will not even discuss earthing.

Will you spend $25 or $100+ for Panamax products that do not even claim that protection? Or spend $1 per protected appliance for the solution that is effective? That Panamax is same as the Monster Cable. May even earth a surge destructively through appliances in that room. Or create scary pictures - potential fire.

Panamax has no earthing and a massive profit margin. But again, he posted only what he was told to believe. Never even learned this science: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Respectfully, I said that EVERY major brand has a warranty and said nothing about specific manufacturers' warranties or warranty amounts (I don't even know what they are). The gist of my recommendations, however, is I'd consider a power-saving surge protector if you're going to buy a new one. It's better for your wallet and the environment. ...
Calm down and first learn the facts. Rants about protectors that do not even claim protection accomplish nothing.

Show us these big buck warranties on Polyphaser protectors. Polyphaser has been an industry benchmark probably longer than PCs existed. Where are the big buck warranties on every Polyphaser product?

Listed were manufacturers of effective protectors. You claim every one has a big buck warranty. Well here again is the list. According to you, every 'whole house' protector has a big buck warranty: General Electric, Siemens, Square D, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Clipsal, Leviton, or Keison.

Only warranty is equivalent to what comes with a car battery. Warranty says nothing about the product's quality or usefulness. Since protection is the discussion, then why equate a warranty with protection? Ineffective protectors have the largest warranty. Free market experience says the worst protectors provide no technical specifications and promote a big buck (rarely honored) warranty. Circuits equivalents to Monster Cable include Panamax, APC, Tripplite, and Belkin.

Install one 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no appliance damage. One 'whole house' protector does what 100 plug-in protectors (one on every appliance) cannot accomplish. The superior solution means even lesser surges (or falling trees) also cause no damage.

A 'whole house' protector is only secondary protection. Too often not known by plug-in protector 'promoters' is primary surge protection. Informed homeowners waste no money on ineffective protector AND inspect the primary protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Best power saving device does same without any protector components - for significantly less money. Better power saving device is an appliance that includes power factor compensation and meets (and exceeds) California Energy Commission requirements. (Obvously others who leave it on due to reliability myths need not consider any such solution.)

CLuv

Nov 10, 2009, 08:05 PM

Now you just sound like you need to rant, you might want to look into what the product does. It's not a surge protector in the sense of a power strip. It has a voltage monitor that continuously monitors the incoming voltage. If the voltage is too low or too high it shuts the power off from the isolated banks. Thus protecting your equipment.

Last time I checked, I don't recall seeing you next to me when I watched a comparable Monster product get hit repeatedly with high voltage and it went up and smoke and the Panamax would shut down the banks to protect the connected high end equipment. Call me crazy, but maybe this thread should be closed since someone obviously feels they didn't get enough me time in this thread.

Better yet, since you understand the engineering, build the product, stamp your name on it, and sell it to the masses, then the problem is really solved.

Until then we get the point you don't want one or need one, that's your preference. I prefer to use what I have, since I saw it in action not once but twice and the second time was in my own home. The op asked for a recommendation, all I did was provide one. I don't need to waste my energy providing a detailed and scientific explanation. All I know is the ***** works from first hand experience. Period.

So guess what.....your opinion and mine is just like, well you know the saying.

Maybe this might help out, and this is what is in my unit. I too can provide links, and with video to help you out.

http://www.furmansound.com/page.php?div=01&id=SMP

BigAudio

Nov 10, 2009, 08:49 PM

I agree with Cluv. I have seen the Panamax and the Monster in action. Hands down, Panamax. Panamax units are designed to take only so many strikes, and then they shut down, and kill power to everything. And when that happens, (outside of warranty) you can call them up, and they will sell you a new one, for half retail. I had a customer upgrade like 4 levels because of that generous upgrade.

Panamax's only business is power protection. In my opinion, the only reason Monster got into that game, was because Panamax was successful with there products.

Monster has made some decent products in the past. But, it takes high margins, and increasing product lines to make sure Noel Lee's Segway is charged, and his fleet of Ferraris, Lambos, and other exotics are well taken care of.

Why else did they branch into amplifiers, remotes, furniture, speakers, power centers,,, etc....

LOL.

westom

Nov 10, 2009, 09:03 PM

It's not a surge protector in the sense of a power strip. It has a voltage monitor that continuously monitors the incoming voltage. If the voltage is too low or too high it shuts the power off from the isolated banks. Thus protecting your equipment.
So it does what is already inside every appliance. IOW it does nothing useful ... for how much money?

But again, where are the numeric specs? How much is too high or too low? That is the lesson from Saddam's WMDs. You are posting subjectively. Therefore I can only assume you are either lying or simply deceived. Your post must include numbers to have credibility.

Voltage variations are destructive mostly where myths are blindly believed. That is also why so many recommend plug-in protectors. They are told what to believe without any facts or numbers.

Voltages variation is destructive to motorized appliances. Electric motors can be adversely affected when AC voltage drops well below 5%. Meanwhile, an ideal voltage for any electronics is 20%. What happens when voltage drops significantly more - maybe 30%? The appliance simply turns off.

Electronics are designed to operate on large voltage variations. Utility voltage by more than 5% because that is destructive to electric motors. 20% voltage variations are perfectly acceptable - ideal - for electronics. What are you spending so much money to protect from? A myth? You are expected to know these numbers before recommending a UPS. And provide those numbers in the post.

Why are you spending so much money to do what electronics make irrelevant? Many hear myths of destructive low voltage. Don't ask why. Automatically believe what they were ordered to believe. That is the lesson from Saddam's WMDs. No numbers or supporting facts. Subjective claims suggest junk science or outright lies.

Meanwhile, the discussion is about Monster Cable and other equivalent scams. Why does your surge protector suddenly do no surge protection? Now your surge protector protects from voltages that are not destructive? Where are you going with these subjective claims - opinions not supported by any numbers or the science?

Use what you have. Your choice. But when you encourage others to be scammed, then a reply is required. Especially when you make subjective (junk science) claims and when you do not quote the manufacturer spec numbers. Low voltage is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Low voltage is destructive to electronics when a scam is being promoted.

I agree with Cluv. I have seen the Panamax and the Monster in action. Hands down, Panamax. Panamax units are designed to take only so many strikes, and then they shut down, and kill power to everything.
Monster Cable and Panamax contain the same circuit. But somehow a Panamax does something different? You know that a Panamax somehow 'shuts down' and disconnects power? Strange. No switch inside to accomplish that. How does it kill power?

What is between the appliance and the Panamax power cord? Please, you know it is better. Then tell us what these electrical components are that count the strikes and then kill power. And post the manufacturer numeric specs that state that.

If you know, then you know what these components are, why they work, and provide the relevant numbers. Please, I am all ears. What is this circuit inside a Panamax that does not exist in the same protector from Monster?

I expect silence. Panamax makes no such claims in their spec numbers. And that is the point.

CLuv

Nov 10, 2009, 09:41 PM

Obviously you need the attention, and it's apparent you can't figure out to click on a link or watch an embedded video. What? Am I'm over your head now? So I'll feed your ego one last time. Either show me a video to show me otherwise, or set up a demo for all of us to see. To also help you out Monster does not use the same circuit as seen in the video, it is proprietary to Panamax. Until then I got an idea for you **** until you either:

1. Make your own product
2. Produce a demo like the videos in the link
3. Set up a demo yourself to disapprove what I saw in the flesh
4. Admit you're jaded that Panamax passed on your "knowledge"
5. Most important gain some social skills (as displayed by your demeanor and highlighted by another visitor in an earlier post)

I expect you then to tell us that BOSE makes the best speakers ever and that I should do runs of lamp cord in my house for distributed audio. That CDs are better than vinyl, and AAC beats even CDs. I'll hold my breath for your infinite wisdom.

Anything else you want to impart from your subscription to Consumer Reports?

westom

Nov 11, 2009, 12:33 AM

What? Am I'm over your head now? So I'll feed your ego one last time. Either show me a video to show me otherwise, or set up a demo for all of us to see.
If you *know*, then posted are what these components are, why they work, and provide the relevant numbers. Please, I am all ears. What is the relevant number? What is this circuit inside a Panamax that does not exist in the same protector from Monster? Not some subjective URL. Fill us with your knowledge. Which number makes that claim?

What do you do when challenged to post numeric specs? Insult. Nothing new. The most technically naive promote mythical *miracle* solutions. Then insult when they cannot back up their claims with spec numbers. You also claimed that low voltage is hardware destructive. A classic myth that also identifies the most technically naive. But the naive are Furman's sales targets.

You believed the first thing you were told. Never noticed spec numbers were missing. You were told to believe low voltage is destructive. It's called a strawman. Setup a myth. Then sell you a solution. You believed what you were ordered to believe. Never asked embarrassing questions such as "Where are those spec numbers?"

The topic is surge protection - which is not low voltage. Surges are high voltage - not low voltage. Why did you not know that? NIST said exactly what Panamax and Monster Cable protectors do. Could the NIST be any less obvious?
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Reality and 100 years of experience did not change because a sales myth was promoted. Your Panamax does not have the necessary earthing. Somehow, it will magically stop what three miles of sky could not? Another damning question you forgot to ask. How does that magic box make energy disappear?

Where are your relevant numbers - as requested? You did not know which number to post? That number does not exist? Forget what was taught even in junior high science - what is necessary to have a fact? Instead, you believed what the sales propaganda told you to believe AND never demanded numbers. Explains why you insult me rather than answer this question, "Where are those spec numbers?"

"The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." How much simpler must the NIST be? Anything that Panamax would do is already inside electronics. What do you ignore? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But then you also *know* low voltage is destructive because you were told what to believe.

Meanwhile, effective surge protection with that always required short connection to earth comes from responsible companies. Use techniques that have been well proven for over 100 years and that are routine in any location that cannot suffer electronics failures. Clearly, that is not from Panamax.

BoulderBum

Nov 11, 2009, 02:38 AM

Good grief, westom. I am not sure I've seen someone get so worked up about something so trivial.

Look, you recommended a whole home protector, which is a valid suggestion, but installation is relatively complex and many would need to hire an electrician to help install it.

Even if you had a whole-home protector, however, you still have to answer the question of how you'll plug several devices into a power outlet that typically only has two plugs.

The majority of consumers seek power strips instead of whole home protectors not because they've fallen prey to some elaborate industry conspiracy, but because the solution is simple to install, supports their multiple devices' needs and because it works, at least for whatever you have plugged into it.

Yes, it's not comprehensive for every appliance and device in the house and your suggestion is one of several options for addressing that problem. Personally, I am not worried about most of the electronics that aren't attached to some power strip or another in my home.

CLuv

Nov 11, 2009, 07:43 AM

Man you seriously got issues and the inability to comprehend. All I did was provide a recommendation, a video showing the technology, and you continue on your diatribe. I never said I was concerned about low voltage, all I did was provide the information of what the equipment does if you actually take the time to read and comprehend my post.

I don't need numbers, I know what I saw and that's all I need. You continue your worked up diatribe, but it is apparent to me you don't have a full understanding of their technology since you continue with the same rant and defensive responses. Sounds like and it looks like to me the guys in the lab at Furman/Panamax might be smarter then you, and at this point this doesn't shock me one bit.

Since you're so worked up about numbers, I'm sure you're the same customer that would tell me that an A/V Receive with .008% THD sounds better than an McIntosh Amp at 1% THD, because that's what the numbers tell you. Sadly any manufacture of A/V equipment can produce "great" THD numbers for specs by doing repeated loopbacks. The real number is TID. If you want to talk about the guts of the equipment, don't even tell me a MOSFET chip provides great sound and power. A circuit is not designed to provide power. You need either solid state or the nice warm sound of a tube amp.

I guess since you understand electricity better than all of us in this thread due to "reality", I guess you'll tell us that the safest place to be in an electrical storm is a car due to the rubber of the tires. That too is a myth, it's not the tires that protect you.

To the op, go his route, go power strip, or go with my recommendation. Either way it has no impact on my life, just hope whatever you get works for you.

carlgo

Nov 11, 2009, 10:17 AM

IOW that surge was so small as to not harm the TV, but vaporized the protector? Or the protector earthed that surge destructively through appliances on the other side of the room or house. Or other appliances earthed enough surge that the TV's internal protection was sufficient. But the surge was still large enough to destroy the scam protector.

What have you done? Recommend a protector that did nothing useful. Assumed by not learning the science and by using only observation. Observation not tempered by fundamental knowledge is classic junk science reasoning.

You don't know anything without tracing the surge's path. My posts come from decades of doing just that.

Observation without specific technical details and no numbers is classic junk science. First paragraph includes possibilities that were ignored. TV not damaged means the protector did something? So why was the dishwasher, bathroom GFCI, clock radio, doorbell, etc no damaged? Why did you analysis ignore other facts? What protected them? Invisible surge protectors?

Your reasoning must also say why other appliances also were not damage. Otherwise, the conclusion is junk science - the same logic that also proved childhood leukemia was created by electric wires. Ignoring other data (ie other undamaged appliances without protectors) to make a conclusion is junk science.

My surge protector sacrificed itself to save my TV. Reality. If the protector fried, then TV's internal protection saved that TV. How many other appliances performed as earthed protectors for that TV?

Finally - protection is always about where energy dissipates. Energy was permitted inside the building. Therefore no effective protection existed. It is that simple - even proven 100 years ago. Either a surge current is dissipated harmlessly in earth. Or interior damage is directly traceable to human failure.

Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much was the 'so called' cheap protector? $20? Then it was twenty times more expensive - and you still had appliance damage. Either energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth - or effective protection does not exist. That cheap power strip had no earth ground. Did exactly what its manufacturer claimed - ineffective protection.

No way around this fundamental principle: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why do I post reality - and then another post promotes the same scam? Effective protection (that costs so much less money) means no surge energy inside the building. Based upon so many posts in this thread, one can conclude they were smarter 100 years ago.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. How many more scam protectors without earthing will be promoted only on hearsay or observation?

So, if a device successfully detects a surge and then trips a circuit to cut off that flow to an appliance, that doesn't work? Isn't that like no wire? Like, if there is no wire, is there a surge? Unplugging an appliance in a lightening storm doesn't work?

The surge is, I presume, going into the entrance box, through the circuit breakers, down each circuit and into whatever plugged-in appliances. If one of these appliances is protected by a surge protector, and it shuts off, the surge then bounces back down the wire and then comes back up again on the other circuits bigger and badder than before?

When the protector was hit and fried it would no longer pass power, making me think that it tripped and did its job. Maybe the TVs protection worked on that initial millisecond of power before the tripping action was complete.

The protector in question was a generic unit of some sort, not a Monster. I wasn't promoting, but I will if someone will only pay me.

Obviously, a whole-house unit with the proper grounds and all is better, but renters should probably protect the things they care about the best way available to them and that is with individual surge protectors. What other choice to you have?

BTW, some utilities install surge protectors free, to protect them from lawsuits. Others, like mine, would rather hire lawyers. Check your situation, they might even do apartments.

You are getting far too excited. I was in a restaurant and a lady was giving the Swedish waitress a hard time about everything. She came to my table and said "You know, zat voman, she needs a gud fokking". You know what I am saying....?

westom

Nov 11, 2009, 09:43 PM

Man you seriously got issues and the inability to comprehend. All I did was provide a recommendation, a video showing the technology, and you continue on your diatribe. ...
I don't need numbers, I know what I saw and that's all I need. Exactly. You have no idea what you saw, first, because you did not even learn what a protector does, ignored all numbers, and do not know how electricity works. Sales promoters at Panamax/Furman posted half truths, subjective claims, and outright likes. And no spec numbers. Their target market is those most easily deceived.

You assumed what you saw, then posted wild speculation. When challenged to prove a junk science conclusion with numbers, instead, you posted insults ... and no spec numbers.

A responsible poster has tech numbers - or does not make a recommendation. But again the point in every post. Plug-in protectors - products with names such as Panamax and Monster Cable - are recommended by those who have not a Clue. Do not know what that product does. Attribute protection inside every appliance, instead, to a scam protector - because that is the first thing you were told to believe.

So that protection inside all household appliances is not overwhelmed, a responsible homeowner spends tens or one hundred times less money on one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Responsible companies provide the 'whole house' protector. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes for less than $50. An informed consumer wastes no money on products recommended by the technically naive. Installs one properly earthed protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.

What the informed homeowner understands: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

So, if a device successfully detects a surge and then trips a circuit to cut off that flow to an appliance, that doesn't work? Isn't that like no wire? Like, if there is no wire, is there a surge? Unplugging an appliance in a lightening storm doesn't work?
The surge is, I presume, going into the entrance box, through the circuit breakers, down each circuit and into whatever plugged-in appliances. If one of these appliances is protected by a surge protector, and it shuts off, …
How many times do you ignore what was quoted. How many times did I quote the NIST – and you still post as if you ignored it. Nothing blocks, arrests, absorbs, stops a surge. The electrical concept. A constant current source means voltage increases as necessary to maintain that current flow. Any device that attempts to block (cut off) current means voltage on that device increases destructively. The math: constant current times an increasing voltage means increasing energy that dissipated destructively. Anything that blocks a surge means surge damage exists.

Why did lightning strike wooden church steeples? Because even wood becomes an electrical conductor. Voltage increases as necessary to flow through wood. How does your open switch or a 2 cm part inside a protector stop what even a wooden church steeple must conduct? How many times was this concept posted and reposted – and you still don’t get it?

If something inside a protector stops the surge, they circuit breakers inside the AC electric box do that. Why waste money on a protector when existing circuit breakers already provide that protection. And are rated to interrupt even higher voltages? If protectors work as you have posted, than circuit breakers inside every home make that protector useless.

Why is a church steeple damaged? That constant current times a higher voltage (because wood is not fully conductive) means high (destructive) energy. It is all about where energy dissipates. Anything inside that tries to stop a surge means massive energy is dissipated destructively. Protection is always about energy outside of the building. Again, because you don't seem to get it. Protection is about diverting energy so that it does not enter the building. How many times must I repost that NIST quote? Once inside the building, energy hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances. Yes - energy. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Either harmlessly in earth. Or destructively inside the building - regardless of human intervention.

Anything that violates these principles is the classic urban myth – the lie that promotes ineffective and obscenely profitable protectors. Bottom line: the NIST says what every protector must do and what your latest post again ignores. The best surge protector in the world is useless if that earth ground is not properly installed. Why do you assume a protector will stop what the best insulator - 3 miles of sky - could not stop? How many times do you ignore the NIST, Sun Microsystems, IEEE, ARRL, or even that sentence? How does it cut off what even 3 miles of sky could not stop? Even wooden church steeples are electrical conductors. How is that 2 cm part inside a protector going to do what you have only assumed - or were told by retail myth promoters?

It is electricity. That means the same current is flowing in everything in a path from incoming wires to earth ground. That means current is flowing through anything that would stop a surge. After current is flowing simultaneously, only then is something in that path damaged. Just another reason why nothing stops or blocks a surge.

You used a number - milliseconds. Learn what a surge is. Microseconds. 300 consecutive surges could pass through any 'blocking' device before that device even starts to open. Please throw away everything taught by scam artists and retail store salesmen. If it violated what the NIST says, then you know your informant was wrong. If it claims to stop, absorb, or block surges, then you know it is a scam. If it will somehow stop what three miles of sky could not, then you know it is a scam. That defines must every plug-in solution.

Again - how to identify an ineffective protector. 1) No dedicated wire for that short connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. If the protector violates either, then the protector is wasted money.

Need I get on my knees to get you to read before posting? This sentence (reposted how many times) says why your assumptions are so wrong: a protector - any protector - is only as effective as its earth ground.

typhoon7

Nov 13, 2009, 06:09 PM

I've read through this and other discussions concerning surge protection. I get the MOVs and grounding, as well as cost and short cuts in producing some units. As such, I have been searching for alternatives to the surge protection on the shelves of my local electronic store.

Do I have to start looking at higher price ranges to find a quality product?

Or I did stumble upon the Opti-UPS 2100 (http://www.opti-ups.com/Products/Item.aspx?model=SS1200) Does anyone have an opinion on how well this product would do?

TIA!

BoulderBum

Nov 13, 2009, 06:42 PM

Did anyone else notice that westom joined specifically to comment on this thread, and has posted nowhere else but this thread? Methinks something is fishy.

To address a couple of the claims:

1. A whole home protector really wouldn't save money. It may take an electrician to install which adds cost (it's not as simple as just plugging in and unless you're comfortable splicing wires, you'll hire help), plus most people need power strips anyway in order to have more plugs than the two on a standard outlet.

2. Surge protectors DO protect equipment, as noted in personal anecdotes even on this thread and industry recommendations from tech:
http://www.intel.com/learn/practical-advice/security/Use-A-Surge-Protector-To-Keep-Your-Files-Safe
to electric utilities:
http://www.kcpl.com/residential/surgefaqs.html#internal
to construction:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=BuyGuide/SurgeProtectorGuide.html

Buying a whole-house surge protector is a worthy suggestion, but it is not the only solution, it is not necessarily a complete solution, and power strips are still worthwhile investments.

Show of hands, who here has actually had a piece of electronics equipment attached to any sort of power strip be destroyed from an electrical surge?

typhoon7, my opinion is not to go overboard.

Most power strip manufacturers warranty the equipment connected to them, just make sure you have every wire (electrical, coax, ethernet/phone) running through the surge protector.

That said, check out the Lowe's buying guide above or this one to learn about joule ratings, clamping voltage, response times, line conditioning, etc
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/173224/surge_protectors

ChrisA

Nov 13, 2009, 07:17 PM

I dislike Monster on general principles. They're the same as the guys that sell wooden stereo knobs that enhance your sound for $150. Real high-end electrical products have proper engineering information and specs on them available. Monster don't..

Bill gates became a billionaire by making one simple observation: There are more people who know nothing about computers then people who are experts. Why not sell to the larger group? He was really the first to try that.

The folks at Monster seem to be copying Mr. Gates and doing well at it.

The plan works well because the target market can't tell crap from the good stuff so they use other non-technical criteria to choose a brand, like package labeling and price.

In anwer to how to install a whole hose system: Call an electrician. If you have to ask you should not be working inside a service entrance box.

westom

Nov 13, 2009, 09:05 PM

1. A whole home protector really wouldn't save money. It may take an electrician to install which adds cost (it's not as simple as just plugging in and unless you're comfortable splicing wires, you'll hire help), plus most people need power strips anyway in order to have more plugs than the two on a standard outlet.
Lowes sells the 'whole house protector for less than $50 because you must call an electrician anyway? More nonsense. The 'whole house' protector is sold in Lowes because even homeowners (who can do electrical work) can install one.

If an electrician is hired the homeowner still saves money. To try to do the equivalent with plug-in protectors means maybe $2000 or $5000. And it still does not protect from the typically destructive surge.

Earthing a 'whole house' protector is the only solution in facilities damage cannot happen. Where the purchasing agent is not enthralled by a mythical warranty. Why does your telco not waste money on a plug-in protector? Because it is so grossly overpriced, often so undersized as to create scary pictures (think house fire), and does not even claim to provide essential protection.

What protects your furnace, dishwasher, bathroom GFCI, and dimmer switches? All require protection from a typically destructive surge that may occur once every seven years. Each protected by the one 'whole house' protector. What is the most critical appliance during a surge? Smoke detector. What protects it? Only the 'whole house' protector.

See the scary pictures listed previously. Think house fire and plug-in protectors (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8779142&postcount=4). Just another problem with protectors that are designed for maximum profits, do not have that always required connection to earth, and do not claim protection in its numeric specs.

BoulderBum has just claimed a protector will magically make surge energy disappear. He does not even try to say what his recommended protector does – that does not even claim protection. Instead he is back promoting sales gimmicks (lies) such as a big buck warranty (chock full of exemptions as to not be honored and an indicator of the most inferior product).

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Do I have to start looking at higher price ranges to find a quality product?
Or I did stumble upon the Opti-UPS 2100 Does anyone have an opinion on how well this product would do?
Read its spec numbers. Opti-UPS SS1200 only claims to do what is already inside every electronic appliance. What does it accomplish? Well, it regulates voltage. What must all electronics power supplies do? Regulate voltage. Provide perfectly ideal power to electronics even when AC mains vary 20%. What does the Opti-UPS 1200 claim to do? Only regulates to 15%. Your computer is required to do better than the Opti-UPS 1200.

Sales propaganda says it offers "one of the highest Energy Surge Rating around". They can say anything in subjective sales paragraphs. View the numbers. It is only 525 joules. That means it will use only 175 joules and never more than 350 joules. How does 300 joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? The numbers are glaring in your face. It has near zero surge protection. Subjective sales claims call that "ideal protection". Ideal near-zero protection would be more accurate. View the numbers. Do you want surge protection or a scam?

How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) No dedicated wire for that less than 10 foot connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earthing. And in this example, 3) specs do not list any protection from the typically destructive surge. How will that magic box stop a surge that can easily exceed 6000 volts if something tries to stop it? It will not and does not claim to.

Your computer will have protection good to maybe 1000 or 2000 volts. So that protection is not overwhelmed, install one 'whole house' protector. What would the Opti-UPS do? Provide a surge with more destructive paths through your computer. One path might bypass protection already inside the Mac. Anything in that Opti-UPS is already solved inside your computer.

ntrigue

Nov 13, 2009, 09:15 PM

I installed my Monster behind the plasma, adjacent the wall. Is my TV going to be featured in those pictures soon?

BoulderBum

Nov 15, 2009, 05:00 PM

Lowes sells the 'whole house protector for less than $50 because you must call an electrician anyway? More nonsense. The 'whole house' protector is sold in Lowes because even homeowners (who can do electrical work) can install one.

Lowe's sells to electricians, builders, plumbers and all sorts of tradesmen in addition to the DIY crowd. I'd wager the vast majority of people who would buy the protector you mentioned would hire a contractor to do the work, while no one would even think of hiring someone to be able to plug in a surge protector they can also buy from Lowe's for $20.

Again, your arguments that a whole home protector is the silver bullet solution, your arguments that it will in any way save money, and your insistence that plug-in surge protectors have no value are total fiction. As noted, the consensus across electronics industries, electric utilities and Lowe's (who you keep referring to) is to urge consumers to use plug-in surge protectors to guard their equipment (even if they're protected further up the line).

I noticed you conveniently glossed over what I said about most people having to buy surge protectors to provide more outlets even if they have a whole home protector, but let's face it: you're not interested in realism here. Rather, you're interested in pimping a product most people don't need/want using nonsensical, arrogant half-truths in the hopes that someone will be ignorant enough to buy your bogus claims or end up succumbing to pressure and giving in to your bullying out of exhaustion, despite their intuition and better judgement.

If an electrician is hired the homeowner still saves money. To try to do the equivalent with plug-in protectors means maybe $2000 or $5000. And it still does not protect from the typically destructive surge.

Completely ridiculous on multiple points. I defy you to find someone who would have spent even $2000 if they didn't buy the solution you mention. I myself have about $60 invested in surge protectors, all in places where I'd need them anyway, because the two wall outlets I have in the area aren't enough to support everything I connected.

BoulderBum has just claimed a protector will magically make surge energy disappear.

Huh? No I didn't. I did say that some surge protectors have line conditioners which is true, and that surge protectors are absolutely effective at protecting your equipment the majority of the time, as demonstrated even by personal experience in this forum.

He does not even try to say what his recommended protector does – that does not even claim protection.

The surge protector I recommended, the (UL listed) Belkin Conserve (which has the feature of shutting itself off via remote switch), has three big words on the front: Click, Save and Protect. I don't know where you're pulling the "it does not even claim protection" idea from. Actually, I know where you're pulling it from, it just can't be mentioned in polite company.

For the clamping voltage, response time, maximum joules and other stats see the "Specs" tab here (and go to the previously linked-to Lowe's buying guide to see what the stats mean):
http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=459516

Instead he is back promoting sales gimmicks (lies) such as a big buck warranty (chock full of exemptions as to not be honored and an indicator of the most inferior product).

The only instance you mentioned of the warranty not being honored was one where a piece of equipment didn't have the coax line going through a surge protector. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the warranty replacement system gets abused by surge protector manufacturers, but in your example the adjustor was right to deny the claim.

If anyone wants to get real, objective information on how surge protectors work and what you should look for, I recommend ignoring this bozo's slant and go here:
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector6.htm

Here's the thing, westom. I called you out before on how your user account didn't exist before this thread existed and noted how you've only posted to this thread. It's clear to me that your interest here isn't talking about Apple products or offering helpful advise. I suspect you simply scour the internet looking for similar discussions to spread good lies about the products you're pumping while spreading bad lies about competing approaches.

You're a spammer. Plain and simple. I'd like you to clarify your background and disclose your employer if you will (not that I'd believe you anyway), but as it stands I trust your advise about as much as the emails and bots that promote hot stock tips as part of a pump-and-dump scam.

I'm reporting you to the moderators.

westom

Nov 15, 2009, 07:43 PM

Huh? No I didn't. I did say that some surge protectors have line conditioners which is true, and that surge protectors are absolutely effective at protecting your equipment the majority of the time, as demonstrated even by personal experience in this forum. ...
For the clamping voltage, response time, maximum joules and other stats see the "Specs" tab here (and go to the previously linked-to Lowe's buying guide to see what the stats mean):
http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=459516

All those personal experiences are observations based in speculation. Not tempered by basic knowledge. Explained once underlying technical realities were added - such as protection already inside all appliances. And how protectors can earth that surge through any nearby appliance that makes the earthing connection. Even another appliance damaged because it was acting as the surge protection - because a human failure let surge energy inside the building.

Undersizing a protector gets a protector to fail during a surge too small to harm the adjacent appliance. Then the naive will assume, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Those are your citations: assumptions based in hearsay, observation not tempered by knowledge, and speculation. You could not even cite a Belkin spec number that claims protection. You did not know which number was significant. So you just cited a URL hoping the number might be in there.

Little hint. None of the numbers you cited claim protection. That 1000 joule protector (which means 330 joules and never more than 660 joules) will magically absorb a surge of hundred of thousands of joules? That is your citation? No wonder you never post numbers.

Your spec does not even claim a voltage. So an engineer will take numbers from the component datasheet. A 6,000 volt surge approaches the electronics on one wire. The other wire get a voltage lowered by maybe 500 volts. So the other wire sees 5,500 volts. That is your surge protection? No wonder you will not post the actual numbers. No wonder your Belkin spec will not even provide a voltage. You have no idea what those numbers say. So now you attack me? Routine when one makes claims he cannot back up with facts and citations.

Citing the UL1449 listing also demonstrates no technical knowledge. UL is about human safety. Protectors are tested for sparks and flames. A protector can even fail during that test and still obtain a UL listing. UL is not about transistor safety. UL is about human safety. As long as the grossly undersized protector does not spit sparks and flame as it fails, then the protector gets a UL listing.

Unfortunately, many plug-in protector even with UL listing have created those scary pictures (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8779142&postcount=4) - a fire threat. The reason for that fire hazard was even described by a NC Fire Marshal - or did you also ignore that professional citation. A problem when the protector is designed to maximize profits; not protection.

With basic electrical knowledge, then "HowStuffWorks" would not be cited. That citation is so chock full of classic urban myths as to be removed as a source in Wikipedia. First pages of deception and outright lies are discussed on 17 Nov 2003 entitled "Inside a surge protector" in rec.radio.shortwave at:
http://tinyurl.com/2fy7u
Multiple posters also confront "HowStuffWorks" myths in "Is my surge protector good?" in alt.comp.hardware starting 8 Oct 2002 at:
http://tinyurl.com/3bn64

But again, you have cited subjectively what you do not even understand. You could not even say which number proves your point. "HowStuffWorks" is a benchmark to identify those who can be told how to think - who do not see the obvious technical fallacies. Who cannot see through urban myths by simply asking why.

I post only about things I do know - significantly. We know you do not have basic electrical knowledge. You even cited "HowStuffWorks" and did not understand what a UL listing means. Where is that Belkin manufacturer spec number that claims protection from each type of surge. 6000 volts on one wire and 5,500 volts on the other - that is your protection? A fundamental difference: I even designed these things decades ago. My designs suffered direct lightning strikes - sometimes with very educational effects. How many of your designs were tested? None. Obviously none.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But again, the NIST says why your Belkin does not provide and does not claim to provide surge protection:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work
> by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be
> useless if grounding is not done properly.

That Belkin has no earthing connection. Is a perfect example of a 600 joule protector that will make hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear - because you said so. Protection has always been about earthing surge energy outside a building. For over 100 years (and from one who actually designed these things), a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That technical reality does not change because your Belkin has no earthing.

Your Belkin citation makes no surge protection claims - in numbers. Did you read a section entitled "Specs" before posting? Apparently not.

RedTomato

Nov 16, 2009, 07:19 AM

Hello?

I live in a flat. I can't install a 'whole house protector' even if I wanted to. So thanks for totally ignoring these of us who don't live in self-owned homes.

Further more, I work in IT, and every company I've worked for rents offices - sometimes freestanding, sometimes inside a larger office block. So 'whole house protectors' are clearly not possible for my workplace.

That's what people here are discussing - what to use if you or your company doesn't own the building you live or work in. Which is the situation for most of us.

Furthermore again, I believe you have a financial interest in this product you are pushing.

See http://www.electronicspoint.com/re-whole-house-surge-suppressor-and-lighting-strikes-t187462.html

westom has a vested (financial) interest in whole-house surge
suppressers and nothing he says should be taken at face value. He
frequently posts totally incorrect information (for example, he is
unable to differentiate between a direct lightning strike, which almost
no-one can realistically protect against, and a surge caused by a nearby
lightning strike, which has straightforward, effective and well-proven
counter-measures).

westom (who has also posted as westom1, w_tom and w_tom1, he morphs his
posting ID to evade killfiles) has been abusing Usenet for many years
and a common practice of his is lying and twisting what others say to
suit his own agenda.

Googling on common phrases you use reveal that you've spammed dozens of sites over the internet with your cut-and-paste diatribes, all saying the same thing over and over again.

BigAudio

Nov 16, 2009, 12:16 PM

Hello?

I live in a flat. I can't install a 'whole house protector' even if I wanted to. So thanks for totally ignoring these of us who don't live in self-owned homes.

Further more, I work in IT, and every company I've worked for rents offices - sometimes freestanding, sometimes inside a larger office block. So 'whole house protectors' are clearly not possible for my workplace.

That's what people here are discussing - what to use if you or your company doesn't own the building you live or work in. Which is the situation for most of us.

Furthermore again, I believe you have a financial interest in this product you are pushing.

See http://www.electronicspoint.com/re-whole-house-surge-suppressor-and-lighting-strikes-t187462.html

Googling on common phrases you use reveal that you've spammed dozens of sites over the internet with your cut-and-paste diatribes, all saying the same thing over and over again.

Good Find!

Im sure he will come back and say the "how can your plug in device stop what 3 miles of sky could not?" again.. lol

Last time I checked.. 3 miles of sky doesnt stop much of anything.

westom

Nov 16, 2009, 05:19 PM

I live in a flat. I can't install a 'whole house protector' even if I wanted to. So thanks for totally ignoring these of us who don't live in self-owned homes.
Please learn from previous posts. Why are you posting without first reading? Solutions even for renters were posted long ago.

Why quote Mike Tomlinson who was caught even years ago by many (including me) posting technical lies. He is a repairman with a large ego. Uses profanity for technical proof. He never even learned a first year electrical concept called impedance. Then when forced to read, he confused wire impedance with characteristic impedance. That is your expert citation? Then I recommend you spend $1000's on plug-in protectors. You need them to sooth your anger.

If posting something useful, quoted are manufacturer spec numbers that claim protection. Why no numbers? Because those numbers do not exist, you attack the messenger? A 'Rush Limbaugh' technique that also proved Saddam had WMDs. You would use Rush reasoning? Why not also post profanity and insults?

Does not matter who quoted the professionals. Facts and numbers come from a long list of reputable source. Cited here, if I remember, were NIST, ARRL, US Air Force, Sun Microsystems, Polyphaser, numerous Ham radio operators, commercial broadcasting engineers who eliminate surge damage even in central Florida, solutions for a radio station after damage kept happening, solution, fixing a nuclear hardened facility from repeat lightning damage, IEEE, and numerous IEEE research papers - to name but a few.

No plug-in protector claims protection. Protectors equivalent to those promoted by BoulderBum even have a history of creating scary pictures (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8779142&postcount=4) - a problem that most every fire department has seen.

Others who ignored personal accusations instead learn form numerous professionals cited previously. Did not let their eyes glaze over when a kludge solution for renters was posted.

If a facility does not need earthing and a 'whole house' protector, then the facility needs no protectors. Protection inside appliances is more than sufficient. Then the facility also need not worry about fire - ie those scary pictures (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8779142&postcount=4).

The informed learned from numbers, professional citations, and well proven history that every protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

kage207

Nov 16, 2009, 11:23 PM

I know this isn't to the original discussion but I looked at the first page and then decided to post. The HDMI cables at Monoprice, they don't say if they are THX certified so I was hoping that you can tell me what they mean by CL2 certified?

That and I just use a cheap Rocketfish surge protector from Best Buy.

BigAudio

Nov 17, 2009, 12:00 PM

CLuv

Nov 17, 2009, 03:49 PM

Westom, if you were god, how big should the sky be to stop a surge? Seems like this is a fatal flaw in engineering.

I'm come now for the diatribe, but I stay for the laughs.

CLuv

Nov 17, 2009, 04:17 PM

RedTomato, nice find. I apparently was right, someone does need the attention and likes to have their ego fed.

westom, is this you?

http://www.westom.com/coolsite/

Mods, I recommend this thread be killed and westom's spamming diatribe account be revoked. Unless you enjoy a good laugh also.

Wotan31

Nov 17, 2009, 04:31 PM

Try plugging the TV directly into the socket?

I always thought those Monster Surge protectors were a ripoff and a scam when you can buy a no name brand one with surge protection for under $20. I wonder if yours just paid off?!?
No name surge protectors, brand name surge protectors, they're all MOV based and aside from wearing out every couple of years without warning, (the MOV's wear out) they don't work very well at absorbing surges. Also, they typically provide ZERO protect against surges that come from the ground wire, a common occurrence during a lightning strike. (FWIW, like others in this thread, I think monster products are garbage. I've owned a few over the years and they were all junk).

If you just want an outlet strip that makes you feel good even though it provides little to no surge protection, go down to your local Big Box store and pick any of the ones they have for sale. Doesn't matter if it's the $5.99 no name or the $129 "high end" brand.

If you want REAL protection from surges, you want a Brick Wall type (http://www.brickwall.com/) of surge protector.

UPS devices typically provide very very low surge protection capabilities, if any. You really need an in-line surge protector connected in series with the UPS. UPS's are designed primarily for no-power situations. Not for excessive surge power situations.

And no I have no affiliation with the Brick Wall product I linked to, just a very happy customer who also happens to have an electrical engineering degree. :)

westom

Nov 18, 2009, 09:55 AM

No name surge protectors, brand name surge protectors, they're all MOV based and aside from wearing out every couple of years without warning, (the MOV's wear out) they don't work very well at absorbing surges.
Wotan31 has just summarized sales propaganda from Surgex, Brickwall, and Zerosurge rather than read the science or learn what has been standard for over 100 years. He forgot to mention is that MOVs don't wear out even in ten years (if a protector is properly sized and properly earthed). MOVs normally wear out by degrading. Voltage changes by 10%. Any MOV that fails catastrophically (see those scary pictures (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8779142&postcount=4)) violates every manufacturer's parameters at the top of every MOV datasheet. MOVs are a problem only when the protector is maximized for profit; not for protection.

Undersizing MOV protectors permits (encourages) damage so that the naive will hype a myth, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Then Surgex, et al blame MOVs for catastrophic (unacceptable) damage. That damage is directly traceable to a deceived consumer. A consumer who assumes it is called a "surge protector"; therefore it must be "surge protection".

Surgex, Brickwall, Panamax, Belkin, Monster Cable, and grocery store protectors all meet the definition of ineffective. NIST bluntly defined these devices:
> ... surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best
> surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
> properly.

Obviously: each has no dedicated earthing; provides no effective protection. That was reason one.

Second, somehow that Surgex will stop what three miles of sky could not. Somehow it will absorb a direct lightning strike. OK. Then mankind is routinely absorbing lightning to obtain energy. Surgex claims, “Series Mode technology is adaptive filter technology, which stores surge energy and slowly releases it” Why is lightning energy not stored and used? Because nothing can store and then slowly release a destructive surge as Surgex (and Wotan31) imply - subjectively. Nothing stops that surge as Belkin, Panamax, Monster Cable, et al claim. Series mode protectors are for surges that are not typically hardware destructive - tiny surges mostly made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances.

Third, where are Surgex spec numbers that claim what that sales propaganda says? Not provided? Wotan31 has done what an overwhelming majority do. Read something subjective. Not demand numbers. Blindly believe retail sales propaganda. No numbers is the first indication of a lie or myth. Same technique that also proved Saddam's WMDs. Subjective claims work when some only believe what is first told. The informed know that energy must be dissipated harmlessly in earth – 100 years of well proven science.

Fourth, what happens when a Surgex tries to stop (absorb) a surge? Another fact that Surgex forgot to mention. That current uses the Surgex safety ground wire to completely bypass protection; to find earth destructively via the nearby appliance. Why did they forgot to discuss that wire? Why be honest? Subjective claims – junk science – are how to sell to those who *know* without first learning. Lies and deceit are part of retail sales when marketing to the most naïve.

Fifth, how much for the Surgex to only protect one appliance? $150 per appliance? Effective protection is about $1 per appliance. Protection for everything including appliances essential to human safety – furnace and smoke detectors.

Five reasons why the Surgex is so expensive and not very effective. Either a surge is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or a surge, permitted inside the building, will hunt for earth (without or without the Surgex) destructively via household appliances. Nothing stops a surge. Not personal attacks. Not hopes, assumptions, or myths. Not three miles of sky. Not even half truths in that Surgex sales brochure. An informed homeowner spends tens or one hundred times less money per appliance earthing one 'whole house' protector. In some cases, the ‘whole house’ protector may even be necessary to protect a Surgex or Brickwall.

MOVs are only problematic when the protector is optimized for profits; not for protection. Surgex identifies another problem with plug-in protectors. A problem not found with properly earthed ‘whole house’ protectors. Amazing how many will ignore posted numbers and the science to believe subjective half truths from a sales brochure. Subjective claims and no spec numbers from Surgex, et al identify consumers most easily deceived. No way around well proven science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

westom

Nov 18, 2009, 10:09 AM

The HDMI cables at Monoprice, they don't say if they are THX certified so I was hoping that you can tell me what they mean by CL2 certified?
CL2 is a rating for wire insulation. More specifically, a human safety requirement if that wire burns. CL2 says nothing about a cable's electrical performance.

Wotan31

Nov 18, 2009, 01:35 PM

Surgex, Brickwall, Panamax, Belkin, Monster Cable, and grocery store protectors all meet the definition of ineffective. NIST bluntly defined these devices:
> ... surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best
> surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
> properly.

Westom, how do you respond to the brickwall claims that their product has no sacrificial components, does not divert the surge to ground (to avoid damaging data processing equipment), and still protects attached equipment even after 1000 surges of 6000v, 3000A?

http://brickwall.com/nofail.htm

Also how do you respond to their "how it works" page which provides a schematic and some operational numbers?

http://brickwall.com/howwork.htm

Just curious why you think the information on these pages is somehow false.

Also, aside from whole house protectors, which plug-in "power strip" style protectors would you recommend? And why?

westom

Nov 18, 2009, 10:04 PM

Westom, how do you respond to the brickwall claims that their product has no sacrificial components, does not divert the surge to ground (to avoid damaging data processing equipment), and still protects attached equipment even after 1000 surges of 6000v, 3000A? Do the numbers. A protector circuit designed for a classic surge (ANSI/IEEE C62.41) of 6000 v and 3000 A means it is rated for something much less than 500 joules. Destructive surges are typically hundreds of thousands of joules. That Brickwall is grossly undersized.

Yes. It does not have sacrificial components to be catastrophically destroyed - sacrificed - by absorbing too much energy. No surge protector is designed to be sacrificial. Sacrificial damage means operation well beyond what spec numbers define or what a manufacturer intended.

Why does nobody absorb and slowly release (use) energy from lightning? Even the Brickwall is only rated for less than 500 joules. Cannot absorb and slowly release surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules.

BTW, what is the amperage of an average lightning strike? 20,000 amps. What is the minimally acceptable 'whole house' protected rated to conduct? 50,000 amps. See those numbers for a protector that costs how many times less money than the Brickwall? The 'whole house' protector is designed for surge protection. Your Brickwall numbers are grossly undersized.

Brickwall, et al numeric specs do not claim what you are hoping or have assumed. Why did Brickwall, et al forgot to discuss a wire that bypasses its protection. Why would they hope you do not read what the NIST says:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is
> not done properly.

For over 100 years, the effective solution has always been earthing. Numerous other options were provided including a cooperative landlord, a kludge (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8781415&postcount=12) solution, or the electric utility installation behind an electric meter. Also important is inspection of the primary protection system.

All appliances contain significant protection. So that a rare surge (ie once every seven years) does not overwhelm appliance internal protection, one 'whole house' protector is installed. Energy must be dissipated someplace. Surges are not blocked or stopped. Surges are diverted / bonded / connected / shunted / conducted to earth. This does not change no matter how many sales brochures spin it. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

See those numbers? The NIST says:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
Brickwall numbers also confirm it will not stop, block, suppress, arrest, or absorb a surge.

The effective protector, proven by over 100 years of experience, has a short and dedicated connection to single point earth ground. Only then might a Brickwall, Surgex, or Zerosurge series mode protector supplement that protection.