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mpgviolin
Jan 27, 2010, 06:41 PM
If anyone has any experience with the SDK, I'm wondering if a stylus might be used for more precise data entry in certain apps?



nateharr
Jan 27, 2010, 06:49 PM
If anyone has any experience with the SDK, I'm wondering if a stylus might be used for more precise data entry in certain apps?

There are a few styli for iPhones that should work fine for the iPad.

I'd love to spend a few hours with the Brushes app and a capacitive stylus. :D

t0mat0
Jan 27, 2010, 06:51 PM
If anyone has any experience with the SDK, I'm wondering if a stylus might be used for more precise data entry in certain apps?


If you don't want pressure sensitive - just get a capacative stylus 3rd party - it'll work fine. If you want pressure sensing - you'll have to wait for a 3rd party on this.

spydr
Jan 31, 2010, 10:08 AM
I totally agree with doing away with stylus for routine usage. But I do hope Apple has kept the screen somewhat optimal for stylus too, for those who want to use one for whatever it is. In their web video, SVP of hardware mentions at one point that they have put more than a thousand sensors for touch recognition (3/4th into the video). May be it is my naiveté, but that sounds too low — a grid of 30x40 sensors? :confused:
In other words, say we use a third party (compatible) stylus with a fine tip, how smooth can lines, curves or writing be rendered? will it look like curves or something drawn with etch-a-sketch knobs?

MTI
Jan 31, 2010, 01:37 PM
Stylus . . . even Palm abandoned that on their mobile device OSs. ;)

cube
Jan 31, 2010, 01:43 PM
A stylus should not be required, but it should be there (specially the place where to store one).

If it had a stylus one would hope for good handwriting recognition with a software update.

mrgreen4242
Jan 31, 2010, 01:45 PM
Capacitive screens don't work in such a way that 100 sensors would be a small number, as I understand it. It's not 1000 binary switches, so to speak. The iPhone does well in terms of screen drawing accuracy, I expect the iPad will, too. You can get a stylus for the iPhone which would work on the iPad for $5-15 depending on the brand, quality, seller, etc.

TraceyS/FL
Jan 31, 2010, 01:49 PM
There are a few styli for iPhones that should work fine for the iPad.

I'd love to spend a few hours with the Brushes app and a capacitive stylus. :D

Here is a gallery that Ten One Design has posted! Enjoy!!

http://tenonedesign.com/gallery

I'm still amazed at what can be done with a small screen and a stylus. My DD tried this morning and was frustrated - but in typical teenage fashion, it was with about 5 minutes of effort! LOL!! I'm pretty sure the bigger space of the pad will cure some of her frustrations.

GorillaPaws
Jan 31, 2010, 02:27 PM
Stylus . . . even Palm abandoned that on their mobile device OSs. ;)

I think it's arguable that a stylus makes more sense on a larger device. The problem with most stylus-based devices is that they were engineered to replace the mouse. Multi-touch makes a lot more sense for navigation and interaction, but I still think there's a lot of room for incorporating a stylus. Quickly sketching out diagrams, formulas and other notes in class for example seem like one particularly useful example. Imagine how cool it would be to take notes on a never-ending sheet of paper. Also, marking-up and annotating e-books would be very useful.

I realize that there's going to be 3rd party apps for this kind of thing, but it's inherently different than if the concept was supported and engineered from the start with this functionality designed into the core OS of the device. Also, I agree that having a physical repository for a stylus built in would've been very handy.

Bodhi395
Jan 31, 2010, 04:11 PM
I think a stylus would be good for a few specialized aspects of the ipad, mainly drawing/painting apps, and apps for taking notes that have handwriting recognition. A stylus definitely is not good for generally navigating around the ipad though, where using your finger is best.

I wonder though if there are styluses that have finer point tips than the ones I usually see being sold? I would like a stylus that has a tip closer to that of a regular pen, so I could actually write out handwritten notes fairly easily and draw pictures with a pretty high degree of accuracy. Anyone know if fine tip styluses for the iphone exist now??

Chaos123x
Jan 31, 2010, 04:14 PM
The stylus would be great for Newton style text input (inkwell) and drawing programs like Sketch book pro and Brushes.


I hope someone makes app that will allow us to use the iPad as a wacom cintiq on a mac.

lordhamster
Feb 1, 2010, 07:25 AM
Use the negative end of a AAA or AA battery.

There you go. Almost free stylus. :)

WytRaven
Feb 1, 2010, 09:29 AM
I think a stylus would be good for a few specialized aspects of the ipad, mainly drawing/painting apps, and apps for taking notes that have handwriting recognition. A stylus definitely is not good for generally navigating around the ipad though, where using your finger is best.

I wonder though if there are styluses that have finer point tips than the ones I usually see being sold? I would like a stylus that has a tip closer to that of a regular pen, so I could actually write out handwritten notes fairly easily and draw pictures with a pretty high degree of accuracy. Anyone know if fine tip styluses for the iphone exist now??

As a current Wacom Penabled Tablet PC user I know this is the only feature I'm going to miss when I switch. I sure hope that someone comes up with a way of creating a precision stylus for the pad. If that happens the pad will be my tablet dream realised completely.

I won't cry if it proves impossible but I will probably let out a small sigh.

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 2, 2010, 10:43 AM
For note taking.

This comes in particularly handy for college students. For one reason because I'm not sure that the keyboard will be the biggest hit. But mainly because, myself being an engineer, I know that i couldn't take notes in any of my classes on a computer. I need to write equations, and draw pictures, and all sorts of things that can't be done with a keyboard.

But the issue becomes the fact that the iPad needs to recognize the difference between the stylus and your hand, so it's not an issue when your hands rest on the "page". This is why apple needs to come up with the solution.


Thoughts?

Gav2k
Feb 2, 2010, 10:45 AM
There is already stylus's Avalible for the iPhone screen google is your friend

bpd115
Feb 2, 2010, 10:47 AM
There will be an app for that I'm sure, no worries.

ikimasu
Feb 2, 2010, 10:50 AM
Yeah I've heard there is a stylus, but I think his point is that Apple needs to make one on their own for the device, and I'd agree with that. With a surface as large as the iPad will have, it would really be silly not to have something of that nature. I'd love it just to be able to doodle/sketch sometimes. The only issue might be the touch screen - I'm not sure if it will be sensitive enough to pick up on things that specific since it is, after all, built for fingers.

bpd115
Feb 2, 2010, 10:54 AM
The screen is sensitive enough. I don't think you'll have pressure sensitivity like a Wacom tablet, but as far as line width, etc. that can always be adjusted in the app.

I also don't need to pay $29.99 for a stylus with an Apple logo on it. 3rd party solutions will be fine. (Although I would if it were out there :cool:)

roland.g
Feb 2, 2010, 10:55 AM
There are plenty of Windows and Linux tablets out there that use styluses. I would recommend that solution for you. If you prefer Mac, then look into a modBook as they are tablets and I assume use a stylus.

A stylus is an unnecessary component for the engineering of the multitouch surface of the iPad and won't be coming.

bpd115
Feb 2, 2010, 10:59 AM
A stylus is an unnecessary component for the engineering of the multitouch surface of the iPad and won't be coming.

It won't be coming from Apple but they already exist for the iPhone and the screen technology is the same.

For navigating an OS, it's not necessary in this environment. For note taking, marking up PDFs, sketching, etc. it's essential and I'm looking forward to doing all of that on my iPad.

lordhamster
Feb 2, 2010, 10:59 AM
The screen is sensitive enough. I don't think you'll have pressure sensitivity like a Wacom tablet, but as far as line width, etc. that can always be adjusted in the app.

I also don't need to pay $29.99 for a stylus with an Apple logo on it. 3rd party solutions will be fine. (Although I would if it were out there :cool:)

Poor Man's Stylus. Take the negative end of a AAA or AA battery and use that. Works great on the iphone when I've got my ski gloves on.


As for note-taking. I've got a business associate who has had a Toshiba tablet PC with a Note taking app on it. It of course has a stylus. He used it for the first 24 hours when he was showing it off to me. Never seen him use it since.

ikimasu
Feb 2, 2010, 11:00 AM
The screen is sensitive enough. I don't think you'll have pressure sensitivity like a Wacom tablet, but as far as line width, etc. that can always be adjusted in the app.

I also don't need to pay $29.99 for a stylus with an Apple logo on it. 3rd party solutions will be fine. (Although I would if it were out there :cool:)

True the apple logo is irrelevant, but I was thinking that an Apple version could potentially work better than someone else's since it would be built by the same people.

A stylus is an unnecessary component for the engineering of the multitouch surface of the iPad and won't be coming.


What do you mean unnecessary for the engineering of the multitouch? A stylus works better than a finger. If you want to write down a note, or draw, a stylus would be much more capable. You might be right that it's not coming, but I don't see why it would be unnecessary. I mean, it's not necessary I guess in some technical sense, but then neither is an iPad.

bpd115
Feb 2, 2010, 11:02 AM
Poor Man's Stylus. Take the negative end of a AAA or AA battery and use that. Works great on the iphone when I've got my ski gloves on.


As for note-taking. I've got a business associate who has had a Toshiba tablet PC with a Note taking app on it. It of course has a stylus. He used it for the first 24 hours when he was showing it off to me. Never seen him use it since.

Never tried the battery trick...I'll have to remember that one.

My iPad will sit inside it's nice leather Apple case (or better 3rd party alternative) and take the place of the yellow ream of notebook paper in a binder I take with me to all of my meetings. It's much more compact than a laptop and the accessibility of the applications is better. Can't wait.

roland.g
Feb 2, 2010, 11:12 AM
What do you mean unnecessary for the engineering of the multitouch? A stylus works better than a finger. If you want to write down a note, or draw, a stylus would be much more capable. You might be right that it's not coming, but I don't see why it would be unnecessary. I mean, it's not necessary I guess in some technical sense, but then neither is an iPad.

I mean that the capacitive sensors of the iPad multitouch screen are designed for finger inputs and such. Clicking in general areas, pinching, zooming, rotating, typing, etc. They are not designed for the precise input that drawing may take on. That's not to say they can't accept it in a fashion somewhere between rudimentary and even doable, but that is not their ultimate design, so a 3rd party stylus and app may work to get the job done, but Apple won't be releasing it because it isn't within the framework of their major intended uses and engineering design. If a 3rd party makes a successful drawing, sketching, or notetakeing app that works with or without a stylus and people find it acceptable, then that's just a bonus for the 30% Apple makes out of the app. Get it.

ikimasu
Feb 2, 2010, 11:15 AM
My iPad will sit inside it's nice leather Apple case (or better 3rd party alternative) and take the place of the yellow ream of notebook paper in a binder I take with me to all of my meetings. It's much more compact than a laptop and the accessibility of the applications is better. Can't wait.

Yes, I'd like it for note taking as well in meetings and such. I'd also like to use it to doodle maybe while I'm watching TV or just out and about, eating lunch perhaps, or something like that. This has the potential to be my sketchbook and notepad all in one, which would be especially nice because my sketchbook is rather bulky. That's mostly why I was concerned about the sensitivity ... I know it won't match my Wacom but I'd like to be able to make drawings that don't look like they were drawn by a 5 year old.

I mean that the capacitive sensors of the iPad multitouch screen are designed for finger inputs and such. Clicking in general areas, pinching, zooming, rotating, typing, etc. They are not designed for the precise input that drawing may take on. That's not to say they can't accept it in a fashion somewhere between rudimentary and even doable, but that is not their ultimate design, so a 3rd party stylus and app may work to get the job done, but Apple won't be releasing it because it isn't within the framework of their major intended uses and engineering design. If a 3rd party makes a successful drawing, sketching, or notetakeing app that works with or without a stylus and people find it acceptable, then that's just a bonus for the 30% Apple makes out of the app. Get it.

Yes, I understand it's intended mostly for a finger and all that. What I'm saying is I think they would benefit from making it one of their intended uses, if only a minor one. If they made an app specifically for it and a stylus for that app, I think a lot of people would buy it and they'd make extra money from it. But again you may very well be right that they aren't going to do that. I just would like it if they would. But as long as there is a 3rd party app/stylus that does that job, I'll be happy.

Sydde
Feb 2, 2010, 11:53 AM
Not with an app so much as a prefPane type thing. One switch to let you activate the stylus option button that turns the keyboard frame into a writing frame, so you can use it in any app that takes text. Really, the screen needs to have a sensitivity adjustment so that you can use that toothpick lying there if you left your 5-button bluetooth super-stylus at home.

techkidd4400
Feb 2, 2010, 11:59 AM
Whether you agree the iPad needs a stylus may depend on what you intend to use a tablet for. I think not incorporating pen and ink in the UI was a mistake.

It seems odd to me that Apple would even adopt the "pad" metaphor for something that cannot be used as a notepad. Afterall, the iPad is incredibly deficient when it comes to easy text entry...so is the iPhone by the way, but the iPhone is a cell phone.

So for text entry, you get no stylus or pen/ink functionality and if you really want to type something (other than a twitter message or brief email), you are expected to use an external keyboard.

I will not be surprised to see the iPad initially blow out of stores, but I hope Apple recognizes that their tablet ain't no iPhone.

roland.g
Feb 2, 2010, 12:04 PM
Whether you agree the iPad needs a stylus may depend on what you intend to use a tablet for. I think not incorporating pen and ink in the UI was a mistake.

It seems odd to me that Apple would even adopt the "pad" metaphor for something that cannot be used as a notepad. Afterall, the iPad is incredibly deficient when it comes to easy text entry...so is the iPhone by the way, but the iPhone is a cell phone.

So for text entry, you get no stylus or pen/ink functionality and if you really want to type something (other than a twitter message or brief email), you are expected to use an external keyboard.

I will not be surprised to see the iPad initially blow out of stores, but I hope Apple recognizes that their tablet ain't no iPhone.

I will only buy after I use a demo model in a store, no preorder for me, however, I think that typing using the onscreen keyboard will be very easy after a short learning curve and the lack of tactile feedback won't be a very big deal. I can see the non-keyboard dock being the bigger hit picture frame use, etc. (Side note: think how much people already pay for those gimmicky 8x10 digital picture frames and the iPad does so much more).

I don't know that I would really use a dock or bluetooth keyboard over the onscreen. But I have an iMac, so if I want a keyboard I will use that.

bpd115
Feb 2, 2010, 01:11 PM
As far as how accurate the stylus is, take a look at what's already been accomplished on an iPhone with Brushes and a stylus:

http://www.tenonedesign.com/gallery

Just imagine what can now be done with the new Brushes app demoed and a bigger canvas.

Now, as far as some sort of OCR, that would be great but not necessary for myself. There will be note apps for this device.. there already are for the iPhone.

anthonymoody
Feb 2, 2010, 01:25 PM
This is an interesting proposition and I think gets to the heart of the matter, at least as I understood SJ. The iPad is about doing what most of the people do most of the time. I would have to say that most people can take notes "only" with an onscreen or BT keyboard most of the time.

Given that, I would think we won't see a stylus from Apple itself. Happily, as has been pointed out, the market for 3rd party accessories for the iPhone is large, and since styli already exist for the iPhone, I'm sure we'll see even bigger ones made for the iPad for folks like you who want/need to make note of formulas, diagrams, etc.

Night Spring
Feb 2, 2010, 01:34 PM
So far, nobody seems to have commented on the OP's request for a "stylus mode," where the screen would accept input from a stylus only, and ignore any accidental touches from fingers/hands. I can see how such a mode would be useful, because when we write on an actual notepad, we often rest our hands on the pad for support and ease of moving the pen. But to implement such a mode would surely be very technological challenging, and probably drive up the cost of a tablet quite a bit. As it is, all tablets currently on the market or being planned does one or the other, but I don't know of any that can switch modes like that. I do hope somebody will develop such a screen sometime, because that would be just awesome.

jav6454
Feb 2, 2010, 01:39 PM
For note taking.

This comes in particularly handy for college students. For one reason because I'm not sure that the keyboard will be the biggest hit. But mainly because, myself being an engineer, I know that i couldn't take notes in any of my classes on a computer. I need to write equations, and draw pictures, and all sorts of things that can't be done with a keyboard.

But the issue becomes the fact that the iPad needs to recognize the difference between the stylus and your hand, so it's not an issue when your hands rest on the "page". This is why apple needs to come up with the solution.


Thoughts?

The iPad has a stylus; it's called your finger. Also, serious note, it's easier to type your class notes than to write them. To draw, it's easier to draw with your fingers by zooming and using different brushes than a pen.

That's the beauty of multi-touch.

GorillaPaws
Feb 2, 2010, 02:07 PM
To draw, it's easier to draw with your fingers by zooming and using different brushes than a pen.

That's the beauty of multi-touch.

You must have VERY narrow fingers. Try writing a formula with your finger, and then compare the results to one written with a pen. Post the results, I'd love to see how much easier and nicer the finger-painted version looks.

I realize that there will be 3rd party support for some of this, but it would have been infinitely better to have it as built-in functionality, especially if the iPad had a place to stow the stylus when not in use.

jav6454
Feb 2, 2010, 02:19 PM
You must have VERY narrow fingers. Try writing a formula with your finger, and then compare the results to one written with a pen. Post the results, I'd love to see how much easier and nicer the finger-painted version looks.

I realize that there will be 3rd party support for some of this, but it would have been infinitely better to have it as built-in functionality, especially if the iPad had a place to stow the stylus when not in use.

Which is why you have zoom in features... geesh, can you think for a moment?

G4R2
Feb 2, 2010, 02:21 PM
The iPad doesn't need a stylus.

If a user needs a stylus, they should use something other than an iPad.

roland.g
Feb 2, 2010, 02:24 PM
You must have VERY narrow fingers. Try writing a formula with your finger, and then compare the results to one written with a pen. Post the results, I'd love to see how much easier and nicer the finger-painted version looks.

I realize that there will be 3rd party support for some of this, but it would have been infinitely better to have it as built-in functionality, especially if the iPad had a place to stow the stylus when not in use.

Think outside the box.

You can define the size of a brush in any painting app, etc. When you write with your finger, it doesn't need to be the size of your finger tip. It can draw a line as indicated by the movement of your finger, not its size.

Hammie
Feb 2, 2010, 02:31 PM
Whether you agree the iPad needs a stylus may depend on what you intend to use a tablet for. I think not incorporating pen and ink in the UI was a mistake.

It seems odd to me that Apple would even adopt the "pad" metaphor for something that cannot be used as a notepad. Afterall, the iPad is incredibly deficient when it comes to easy text entry...so is the iPhone by the way, but the iPhone is a cell phone.

So for text entry, you get no stylus or pen/ink functionality and if you really want to type something (other than a twitter message or brief email), you are expected to use an external keyboard.

I will not be surprised to see the iPad initially blow out of stores, but I hope Apple recognizes that their tablet ain't no iPhone.

I also found it odd that Apple would use the Pad name but not include any writing "notepad" functionality.

Runt888
Feb 2, 2010, 02:36 PM
Poor Man's Stylus. Take the negative end of a AAA or AA battery and use that. Works great on the iphone when I've got my ski gloves on.

Doesn't this scratch the crap out of the screen?

You must have VERY narrow fingers. Try writing a formula with your finger, and then compare the results to one written with a pen. Post the results, I'd love to see how much easier and nicer the finger-painted version looks.

I agree, for note taking in technical/math fields, a stylus would be very helpful. I'm sure third parties will fill the void here.

Which is why you have zoom in features... geesh, can you think for a moment?

:eek: Zooming in, drawing thick lines, then zooming out would still result in crappy looking handwriting. Just because you wouldn't need a stylus, doesn't mean that there isn't a perfectly valid use for one. Posting a crappy workaround isn't helpful, and neither are the insults.

ikimasu
Feb 2, 2010, 02:42 PM
Which is why you have zoom in features... geesh, can you think for a moment?

Think outside the box.

You can define the size of a brush in any painting app, etc. When you write with your finger, it doesn't need to be the size of your finger tip. It can draw a line as indicated by the movement of your finger, not its size.

You can do all of this in photoshop too. You can zoom in, use larger/smaller brushes, etc. And with my Wacom, I use all of these functions. But have you heard of anyone who makes a finger tablet for that? I've not seen any tablet like that. In fact, every tablet I know of up to this point uses a stylus, and even if there was some kind of strictly finger-touch tablet that I've not heard of, I think I'm safe in saying it's not very popular in comparison. Why? Because it's easier to use a stylus than your finger. This isn't to say you can't use your finger, it's just that it's easier to use a stylus when drawing and writing. It's more natural to use a tool. You just get better control.

As someone pointed out above, this device is called the iPad. When I think of a pad, I think of something you can write and draw on with a writing utensil. Not something you have to finger paint on. So it just seems odd to say:

The iPad doesn't need a stylus.

If a user needs a stylus, they should use something other than an iPad.

Now, if you don't care about a stylus, I can totally get that. I don't think a stylus should even necessarily be included with the tablet when you buy it. But I think it would make sense for stylus functionality to be built in for something that is called an iPad. Especially since if they sold a stylus and an app to use it separately, they would only make more money.

aristobrat
Feb 2, 2010, 03:15 PM
FWIW, to capture customers' signatures on its new iPod touch-based EasyPay POS system, Apple Stores use the Pogo Sketch stylus (instead of making the customer try to sign the screen with their fingertip):

http://tenonedesign.com/images/product_sketch_horizontal.png
http://tenonedesign.com/sketch.php

pubwvj
Feb 2, 2010, 05:14 PM
Pressure sensitivity and an optional stylus would be really nice. Just like the keyboard this would be an option. One could even have the stylus be a brush...

Sparced
Feb 2, 2010, 05:43 PM
I can't find any examples of people writing with a Pogo stylus on the iPhone.

Taking notes, drawing diagrams, writing equations is all I want to do.

This thing looks horrible to write with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riE3imu5nLI

deconstruct60
Feb 2, 2010, 06:48 PM
Think outside the box.

You can define the size of a brush in any painting app, etc. When you write with your finger, it doesn't need to be the size of your finger tip. It can draw a line as indicated by the movement of your finger, not its size.

Going to be tough to think outside the box when can't see the box. Sure can make the pen size smaller than your figure. However, that also means you cannot see what you are drawing either. You can only see after your finger moves away.

So for example how do you pricely join 4 lines to all meet at a single point?
Zoom in and change brush size and then zoom back out and again change brush size is not the answer. You cannot think outside the box if you cannot see the box (i.e., think outside of the problem you are trying to solve). In the context of taking notes the content is streaming by. While you are adding additionaly ergonomic actions to perform the presenter could have moved onto the next point which also needs to be recorded. This isn't a "work at your own pace in Photoshop" where you can labor over a drawing for 5 minutes or build some paint-by-numbers diagram and fill it in. This is need to get drawing of modest complexity accurately done in less that 2-4 secs kind of context. (e.g., a physics problem force diagram of along 2-3 vectors , an equation with super and subscripts, an eight atom molecule with complicated bonds, etc. ). Too many additional commands will impair that process, not enhance it.

I could see some multitouch gesture to insert a canvas for a figure ( to make it distinct from a handwriting area from a drawing area). But once have bounding box... drawing is quicker is use a precise instrument.

techkidd4400
Feb 2, 2010, 07:14 PM
I can't find any examples of people writing with a Pogo stylus on the iPhone.

Taking notes, drawing diagrams, writing equations is all I want to do.

This thing looks horrible to write with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riE3imu5nLI

Yes, the Pogo stylus isn't for real note taking. As for using fingers for notetaking, come on what are we cave dwellers, we don't take notes with our fingers. I want the iPad to succeed too, but let's not be blinded by our enthusiasm for a product that does not meet a need.

It's clear that some don't need or want a stylus in a tablet and, perhaps, Apple had those users in mind when they designed the iPad. Using the iPad for interesting uses like reading e-books, email, twitter messages, and whatever else we do on our iPhones and iPod Touch is fine for some. I, like a few others on this forum, apparently wanted the UI to include pen based notetaking.

Sparced
Feb 2, 2010, 07:54 PM
This looks promising, FastFinga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzsjRb_wAOQ

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac57/uploadguru/images/320090110_4screen.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac57/uploadguru/images/320090110_3screen.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac57/uploadguru/images/320090110screen.jpg