Holy cow! the new G6!

[slipper]

according to the site, its a completely new design, powerful, energy efficient

http://www.pontiac.com/g6/images/bg_image1.jpg

from pontiac. also coming soon from apple.

[FuzzyBallz]

Wow... I love last month's news. Maybe Apple will sue and get something back after losing all that money to to Apple Corp.

[Sun Baked]

Since it is from Pontiac, somebody want to toss this car in the Wasteland where it belongs (especially considering the car it's replacing) -- or at least move the thread to Community Discussion.

[Toe]

How many gallons per mile?

[Rod Rod]

Wow... I love last month's news. Maybe Apple will sue and get something back after losing all that money to to Apple Corp.

The news isn't from last month. It's either nine months old or older.

This car was displayed at the 2004 North American International Auto Show, held at the Cobo Center in Detroit back in January.

[MacNut]

This brings up a good point, doesnt Motorola or IBM or Apple own the rights to the trademark G6?

[vouder17]

Yeah those cars are sexy, and oprah gave away 276 of them on her show!!!!!! how cool is that........The things you can do when you have money.

[homerjward]

Yeah those cars are sexy, and oprah gave away 276 of them on her show!!!!!! how cool is that........The things you can do when you have money.
actually they were donated by gm as a pr stunt

[bousozoku]

actually they were donated by gm as a pr stunt

It's probably because they envision not being able to sell them to wannabe BMW owners.

[Celeron]

Too bad its made by Pontiac, which means its crap. Give me a Japanese car anyday.

[x86isslow]

right, because being a 'japanese' car makes it good...
my toyota went through 5 mufflers in 10 years...
not to mention that japanese companies make their cars in the us now (nissan's in the south somewhere iirc).

[Edot]

right, because being a 'japanese' car makes it good...
my toyota went through 5 mufflers in 10 years...
not to mention that japanese companies make their cars in the us now (nissan's in the south somewhere iirc).

Dude mufflers are meant to wear out. Plus at most places you can get them replaced for free or next to nothing.

[Tommy!]

Actually, GMs newer models are really good, they seem to be the first US company seeing what draws people to japanese cars. The Japanese make 3 times more profit off of their cars than GM who makes 3x as much as chrysler. Ford makes "no money" (on paper). Just a random fact.

Speaking of GM we should all be driving saabs!

[Celeron]

right, because being a 'japanese' car makes it good...
my toyota went through 5 mufflers in 10 years...
not to mention that japanese companies make their cars in the us now (nissan's in the south somewhere iirc).

What I meant by Japanese was Japanese designed cars, such as Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. I'm fully aware that many are made in the U.S. I own a Honda Accord which was built Ohio.

Japanese made cars consistently score MUCH better than American cars in Consumer Reports' annual auto issue. It pretty much shows you which cars are crap and which aren't. Most of those crap cars, albeit not all of them, are designed by American companies. GM is frequently on the very BOTTOM of the heap.

Personally, I prefer Honda/Acura. I'm looking to buy a Acura TSX here in the near future and interior quality and fit and finish is MILES and MILES ahead of anything I have seen recently in an American made car. The quality of the plastics and other materials is simply not the same.

[crazytom]

How many gallons per mile?

It looks like it's estimated at 22 city/32 highway....a real American car. :rolleyes:

Something that will go really fast when you're not stuck in traffic, typically from 2am until 6am. :)

[bousozoku]

...
GM is frequently on the very BOTTOM of the heap.
...

Although, they're at the top of the cheap, which is not to say that their cars are inexpensive. I've always been impressed when you put cheesy plastics in your more expensive cars that look just like your cheapest cars' plastics.

[AliensAreFuzzy]

I'm partial to Subarus. '95 Impreza Outback with 100,000+ miles on it and so far we've had to replace a faulty temperature gauge.

[Don't panic]

How many gallons per mile?
It looks like it's estimated at 22 city/32 highway....a real American car. :rolleyes:


it requires 32 gallons of gasoline to move 1 mile !?!
and I thoguht the ferrari enzo was a guzzler....
no wonder they are giving them away for free.

[Rod Rod]

Although, they're at the top of the cheap, which is not to say that their cars are inexpensive. I've always been impressed when you put cheesy plastics in your more expensive cars that look just like your cheapest cars' plastics.

Just in case you were referring to exterior plastics: The current design direction for Pontiac is away from cheesy plastics. The G6 has no extra plastic add-ons as Grand Ams have had in the past. The G6, GTO (rebadged Holden Monaro for you Australians), Solstice, Grand Prix and Bonneville all reflect the new, clean-lines look at Pontiac. If you were to put aside your Japanese cars-bias you could examine the picture at the beginning of this thread for cheesy plastics.

In case you were referring to interior plastics, current Cadillacs and Buicks have better plastics than the other lines, and within the other lines the upmarket cars have nicer interior plastics than the lower end ones (example: Corvette).

It's easy to knock American cars because of what that rolled off assembly lines before.

As Tommy! said, current American cars are way better than past American cars. Styling wise, American cars are way better than anything out of Japan (with one possible exception, the Honda S2000). Japanese cars tend to be plain in the styling department. Compare anything out of Japan to the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum.

[zelmo]

Just in case you were referring to exterior plastics: The current design direction for Pontiac is away from cheesy plastics. The G6 has no extra plastic add-ons as Grand Ams have had in the past. The G6, GTO (rebadged Holden Monaro for you Australians), Solstice, Grand Prix and Bonneville all reflect the new, clean-lines look at Pontiac. If you were to put aside your Japanese cars-bias you could examine the picture at the beginning of this thread for cheesy plastics.

In case you were referring to interior plastics, current Cadillacs and Buicks have better plastics than the other lines, and within the other lines the upmarket cars have nicer interior plastics than the lower end ones (example: Corvette).

It's easy to knock American cars because of what that rolled off assembly lines before.

As Tommy! said, current American cars are way better than past American cars. Styling wise, American cars are way better than anything out of Japan (with one possible exception, the Honda S2000). Japanese cars tend to be plain in the styling department. Compare anything out of Japan to the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum.


Thank God Pontiac finally abandoned that ugly, cheesy "cladding" crap. It does seem like the Big Three have made some serious efforts to improve at least the external design of their cars. I mean the Crossfire, 300M, and Magnum from Chrysler are all pretty slick, on the outside at least. And the new F150 is sweet, man. Makes me think about trading in my Tundra - not quite [Toyota truck with a V8? - pry it from my cold dead fingers].
Personally, I have more faith in the interior fit and finish and the overall mechanical durability of Honda, Toyota, and even Nisssan over the current American rides. I hope that, in the next few years, we find that US automakers close that perceived gap and get back to the top of the heap again. They already are taking the edge in exterior design.

[iceTrX]

Just in case you were referring to exterior plastics: The current design direction for Pontiac is away from cheesy plastics. The G6 has no extra plastic add-ons as Grand Ams have had in the past. The G6, GTO (rebadged Holden Monaro for you Australians), Solstice, Grand Prix and Bonneville all reflect the new, clean-lines look at Pontiac. If you were to put aside your Japanese cars-bias you could examine the picture at the beginning of this thread for cheesy plastics.

In case you were referring to interior plastics, current Cadillacs and Buicks have better plastics than the other lines, and within the other lines the upmarket cars have nicer interior plastics than the lower end ones (example: Corvette).

It's easy to knock American cars because of what that rolled off assembly lines before.

As Tommy! said, current American cars are way better than past American cars. Styling wise, American cars are way better than anything out of Japan (with one possible exception, the Honda S2000). Japanese cars tend to be plain in the styling department. Compare anything out of Japan to the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum.

Well said.
I don't know how anyone can bash GM vehicles anymore as they are very affordable, and they have made significant quality improvements that may soon rival or surpass japanese auto manufactures (they have already passed european manufactures):
"The Domestics are putting their money where their mouths are in terms of consistent long-term quality improvement," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "However, while the Domestics continue to outpace the Europeans in long-term quality, the Japanese continue to dominate."

GM's quality numbers seem to be catching up every year:
"General Motors, which improves 2 PP100, remains the only Domestic manufacturer ranking above the industry average." "At the nameplate level, Lexus ranks highest for the 10th consecutive year. Lexus is followed in the rankings by Buick, Infiniti, Lincoln and Cadillac, respectively."

I see no reason for ignorant comments like the one from Sun Baked. (All quotes taken from the JD Power 2004 Vehicle Dependency press release)

[makisushi]

American Cars, Japanese cars, Korean Cars.... WHO CARES


German Cars RULE!

[mr_mac]

Apple will not care.

It's a freaking car after all...

[Toe]

If you were to use today's technologies and design a method of getting people where they want to be, would you design the combustion engine automobile and the modern highway system?

I'm thinking you could come up with something (a lot of things) better.

Here's a start... http://www.carfree.com/

[StarmanDeluxe]

American Cars, Japanese cars, Korean Cars.... WHO CARES


German Cars RULE!

Winner!

[QCassidy352]

Personally, I prefer Honda/Acura. I'm looking to buy a Acura TSX here in the near future and interior quality and fit and finish is MILES and MILES ahead of anything I have seen recently in an American made car. The quality of the plastics and other materials is simply not the same.

A Honda, even a cheap one like a civic, will hold up better than any car on the market except possibly a BMW. There's a reason the accord is the best selling sedan in America for god knows how many years.

[sorryiwasdreami]

American Cars, Japanese cars, Korean Cars.... WHO CARES
German Cars RULE!

I'm with you brutha: 1987 BMW 528e

270,000 miles and no signs of getting tired.

[Coolvirus007]

Some show gave that car too all the people who attended their show. I think it was Oprah. interesting

[FuzzyBallz]

Some show gave that car too all the people who attended their show. I think it was Oprah. interesting
Oprah gave all the audience of her show with cars given to her by Pontiac as a joint advertisement.

[bousozoku]

Just in case you were referring to exterior plastics: The current design direction for Pontiac is away from cheesy plastics. The G6 has no extra plastic add-ons as Grand Ams have had in the past. The G6, GTO (rebadged Holden Monaro for you Australians), Solstice, Grand Prix and Bonneville all reflect the new, clean-lines look at Pontiac. If you were to put aside your Japanese cars-bias you could examine the picture at the beginning of this thread for cheesy plastics.

In case you were referring to interior plastics, current Cadillacs and Buicks have better plastics than the other lines, and within the other lines the upmarket cars have nicer interior plastics than the lower end ones (example: Corvette).

It's easy to knock American cars because of what that rolled off assembly lines before.

As Tommy! said, current American cars are way better than past American cars. Styling wise, American cars are way better than anything out of Japan (with one possible exception, the Honda S2000). Japanese cars tend to be plain in the styling department. Compare anything out of Japan to the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum.

I was talking about the interior plastics and what I saw at the Orlando auto show last Thanksgiving, so not so far back. I am certainly happy to knock GM because of what I've experienced in person, not because I'm bored. By the way, I don't have a Japanese car bias--I'll speak out against anything inferior. Check out the Audi A4 thread. :D

I was interested in the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix pair. How could the same car be so different? When I sat down in the driver's seat, I could nearly feel the seat frame. The plastics were cheesy. The gauges were cheesy. I walked over to the Toyota section and was pleasantly surprised. It couldn't be the same car. I've always considered Toyota to be the GM of Japan, but the Matrix was good.

I've seen the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum wagon lately and I've got to say "no thanks" to those but at least, they're different. I wouldn't be too concerned about Chrysler's quality because even my parents cheapo Plymouth Voyager minivan is quite good. Ford has a few good products too.

[Counterfit]

Dude mufflers are meant to wear out. Plus at most places you can get them replaced for free or next to nothing. Dude mufflers should be lasting longer than an average of 2 freaking years per muffler!

[slughead]

The best GM car I ever owned was a Chevy (yes, chevy) prism, which, of course, is made by toyota (it's really a corolla with a chevy logo).

[yg17]

my old car was a 97 pontiac grand am that my parents gave me, biggest piece of crap ever. That car and my mom's pontiac van have made up my mind to never, ever own another gm car again, corvettes included (besides, I'd rather have other cars for the price).

I was glad to get that POS totaled. now I have a 2004 Hyundai Tiburon....before you say Hyundai's are worse than GM, ect....they've come a long way in the last few years and are now up with toyota and honda in reliability ratings. And in the 8 months I've had it, I have not had a single problem with it. When my parents got the grand am, brand new back in 97, after 8 months, the thing was a couple repairs from getting replaced under the lemon laws

[slipper]

American cars are way better than anything out of Japan
lol thats the biggest load of crap i heard on macforums to date.

[MacNut]

I would agree with the quality of GM cars, my mom's 99 Olds Intrigue is the worst pos ever, it seems to be in the shop more than it is on the road.

[yg17]

IMO, GM's biggest mistake is having so many models. Look at Chevy alone, how many new or redesigned cars came out in the past 2 years? Equonox, SSR, Cobalt, Vette C6, Colorado and the Uplander. Plus all the other existing Chevy vehicles. That's a ton of cars to build and keep track of, it would be almost impossible for a Chevy plant to produce all those cars with quality work and make sure everything's right, so corners get cut and cars make it to the dealers that are below standard. Now factor in all the other GM models and of course you're going to have poor build quality. Now take into account all the Japanese/Korean cars, the companies are looking over 2 model lines max: Hyundai/Kia, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti with the exception being Toyota that has 3, Toyota, Lexus and Scion. Since they're producing fewer models, they have the ability to make sure every car that comes off the assembly line meets standards

[jsalzer]

This brings up a good point, doesnt Motorola or IBM or Apple own the rights to the trademark G6?

I think the key word here is "trade". The Apple/Motorola/IBM GX is in the computer trade. Pontiac's G6 is in the automobile trade. It's when IBM starts making cars or Pontiac starts making computers that they run into problems with trademarks.

It's kind of like Edge. Pepsi can use it, but SanDisk can't.

A copyright, on the other hand, spans all trades.

[Aciddan]

Too bad its made by Pontiac, which means its crap. Give me a Japanese car anyday.

Actually, the car to get is what you call the "Pontiac GTO" - which actually isn't a Pontiac at all, but this: http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modeloverview?modelid=12001 and is made in Australia. From what I understand, it has the same engine as one of the corvette models...

While I'm actually a Peugeot fan personally, Sometimes the pure grunt of something like the Monaro coupe is appealing (+ the subtle lines, don't know about those air intakes on the latest version though...)

There's also an AWD version built by HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) that can do 0-100 in 6.5 seconds...




... on gravel! :eek:

-- Dan :D

[Rod Rod]

lol thats the biggest load of crap i heard on macforums to date.

When you take things out of context, you're the one delivering the "biggest load of crap." Your Japanese car bias has wrecked your reading comprehension.


Styling wise, American cars are way better than anything out of Japan (with one possible exception, the Honda S2000). Japanese cars tend to be plain in the styling department. Compare anything out of Japan to the Chrysler 300 / Dodge Magnum.

slipper, tell me which Japanese cars are not plain-Jane in their styling outside of sports cars. Current American cars have more style than their Japanese counterparts.


I was glad to get that POS totaled.

I hope nobody got hurt.

[yg17]

I hope nobody got hurt.


lol nope, just the car :D

[bousozoku]

IMO, GM's biggest mistake is having so many models. Look at Chevy alone, how many new or redesigned cars came out in the past 2 years? Equonox, SSR, Cobalt, Vette C6, Colorado and the Uplander. Plus all the other existing Chevy vehicles. That's a ton of cars to build and keep track of, it would be almost impossible for a Chevy plant to produce all those cars with quality work and make sure everything's right, so corners get cut and cars make it to the dealers that are below standard. Now factor in all the other GM models and of course you're going to have poor build quality. Now take into account all the Japanese/Korean cars, the companies are looking over 2 model lines max: Hyundai/Kia, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti with the exception being Toyota that has 3, Toyota, Lexus and Scion. Since they're producing fewer models, they have the ability to make sure every car that comes off the assembly line meets standards

Of course, Chevy doesn't really make their vehicles by themselves. GM plants make the various vehicles which use the same chassis.

By the way, when did Hyundai and Kia merge?

Japanese car companies also play the name game and have various brands, not that you see them outside Japan. Mazda, for instance, sold cars under Mazda and Autozam and trucks under the Marvié brand name at one point in time.

[Celeron]

slipper, tell me which Japanese cars are not plain-Jane in their styling outside of sports cars. Current American cars have more style than their Japanese counterparts.

You can have the best styling in the world, but what good does it do you when those awesomely styled interiors fall apart in 2 years? Styling is a nice plus, but it isn't everything. There's a lot to say about quality, and American cars just don't match up. You can't dispute that.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Dude mufflers are meant to wear out. Plus at most places you can get them replaced for free or next to nothing.

To be honest, with him being the "snow belt" there may reason that the mufflers wear out that quickly. Here in the DC area most of us get 60K on a muffler if not more.

But you are right, that does not mean that Toyota builds a bad car. In most other ways they stand way better than most American cars.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I'm partial to Subarus. '95 Impreza Outback with 100,000+ miles on it and so far we've had to replace a faulty temperature gauge.

From your mouth to God's ears. I have a Baja '03. :)

[Chip NoVaMac]

Well said.
I don't know how anyone can bash GM vehicles anymore as they are very affordable, and they have made significant quality improvements that may soon rival or surpass japanese auto manufactures (they have already passed european manufactures):

But thanks to the heavy rebates that American cars are forced to give to sell cars, only hurts the consumer in the end. By lower trade-in value.

[Chip NoVaMac]

American Cars, Japanese cars, Korean Cars.... WHO CARES


German Cars RULE!

Except for the POS's that VW puts together for the most part for the American market. A recent thread showed that many Golf, Jetta, and Beetle owners are having problems (even in recent models, that for me date back to my '99 Beetle).

Now, I will say at least for VW, nothing drives as sweetly.

[Rod Rod]

You can have the best styling in the world, but what good does it do you when those awesomely styled interiors fall apart in 2 years? Styling is a nice plus, but it isn't everything. There's a lot to say about quality, and American cars just don't match up. You can't dispute that.

J.D. Power and Associates disputes that, as IceTrX pointed out. Incidentally, remember the interiors in the 2002-2004 Altimas? The plastics had prominent rough seams.

This is the press release IceTrX referred to earlier:

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860

[Chip NoVaMac]

You can have the best styling in the world, but what good does it do you when those awesomely styled interiors fall apart in 2 years? Styling is a nice plus, but it isn't everything. There's a lot to say about quality, and American cars just don't match up. You can't dispute that.

And what does style have to do with it if you are visiting the dealer every 4 to 6 weeks to fix things that just don't seem to go wrong with the Japanese makers?

[Chip NoVaMac]

J.D. Power and Associates disputes that, as IceTrX pointed out. Incidentally, remember the interiors in the 2002-2004 Altimas? The plastics had prominent rough seams.

This is the press release IceTrX referred to earlier:

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860

As wrong as they are at times, I have more faith in Consumer Reports and their members experiences with the various makes.

[Rod Rod]

But thanks to the heavy rebates that American cars are forced to give to sell cars, only hurts the consumer in the end. By lower trade-in value.

Lower tradein value doesn't hurt this consumer.

I look for 1-2 year old American cars which still have 12-24k miles and 1-2 years of warranty left. At 35k miles I take my car to my mechanic to go over it with a fine toothed comb so everything warranty-replaceable gets replaced at my next stop, the dealership.

I am grateful to all the Honda and Toyota lovers who contribute to the high resale values on those brands.

That leaves a depression in demand for the cars I like, and I get to save a ton of money in the process.

Here's a good example on the Japanese side: Remember the last bodystyle of the Subaru SVX? Its resale value was extremely low. It was a quality car... not a super-fast sports car like the 300zx but rather an all-weather GT car (in the classic sense).

Demand drives resale value and not always quality. The Subaru SVX was a high quality car but it just didn't have the mass appeal that other sporty cars had.

[Rod Rod]

As wrong as they are at times, I have more faith in Consumer Reports and their members experiences with the various makes.

http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/about/about_ratings.asp

J. D. Power collects their data from consumers.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Lower tradein value doesn't hurt this consumer.

I look for 1-2 year old American cars which still have 12-24k miles and 1-2 years of warranty left. At 35k miles I take my car to my mechanic to go over it with a fine toothed comb so everything warranty-replaceable gets replaced at my next stop, the dealership.

I am grateful to all the Honda and Toyota lovers who contribute to the high resale values on those brands.

That leaves a depression in demand for the cars I like, and I get to save a ton of money in the process.

Here's a good example on the Japanese side: Remember the last bodystyle of the Subaru SVX? Its resale value was extremely low. It was a quality car... not a super-fast sports car like the 300zx but rather an all-weather GT car (in the classic sense).

Demand drives resale value and not always quality. The Subaru SVX was a high quality car but it just didn't have the mass appeal that other sporty cars had.

I would rather benefit, than having you benefit. That is the reason that I probably will never by an "American" brand ever again.

[Chip NoVaMac]

http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/about/about_ratings.asp

J. D. Power collects their data from consumers.

Evidently you have never been "pressured" by the salesperson to give high marks on the survey. I have heard every excuse in the world for giving high marks.

With CU, the results are based (rightly or wrongly) on their own experiences with the brands. I know who I would trust after 30 to 60 days of ownership. And it is NOT J.D. Powers - a mouth piece to the companies that pay them.

[Rod Rod]

I would rather benefit, than having you benefit. That is the reason that I probably will never by an "American" brand ever again.

It's win-win though. We both benefit, even if you never buy an American car again. You contribute to the demand that keeps Japanese brands' resale values higher, which at the same time has the opposite effect on American brands' resale values. Thanks.

Evidently you have never been "pressured" by the salesperson to give high marks on the survey. I have heard every excuse in the world for giving high marks.

What sort of person would bend to such pressure? When you leave the dealership the salesperson is no longer over your shoulder or on your back. Filling out a survey that came in the mail or answering some questions over the phone aren't done at the sales lot.

CU and JDPA have the same methodology except that CU also conducts in-house testing. The survey-taking is the same as far as reports of reliability, service, overall experience and satisfaction.

[yg17]

By the way, when did Hyundai and Kia merge?

Japanese car companies also play the name game and have various brands, not that you see them outside Japan. Mazda, for instance, sold cars under Mazda and Autozam and trucks under the Marvié brand name at one point in time.

Hyundai and Kia have always been the same company. And isnt Mazda made by Ford now?

I look for 1-2 year old American cars which still have 12-24k miles and 1-2 years of warranty left.

Wow, 1-2 years of warrany left, thats a lot :rolleyes: [/sarcasm] Wanna now how many years my car will have left on the warranty in 2 years? 8, yes 8. Another reason imports beat American cars, they typically have longer, better warranties.

GM is what, 3 years? If you want 5 years you gotta buy the extended warranty? I drove my car off the lot with a 10 year 100k mile warranty without spending an extra dime for it.


and as far as interiors go...I've sat in a corvette and I've sat in a civic (both 2004s) While you would hope the $50,000 corvette had the better interior, the interior on the $12,000 Civic was much better and seemed to be a higher quality.

[Rod Rod]

Wow, 1-2 years of warrany left, thats a lot :rolleyes: [/sarcasm] Wanna now how many years my car will have left on the warranty in 2 years? 8, yes 8. Another reason imports beat American cars, they typically have longer, better warranties.

GM is what, 3 years? If you want 5 years you gotta buy the extended warranty? I drove my car off the lot with a 10 year 100k mile warranty without spending an extra dime for it.

That 10-year, 100,000 mile warranty only covers the powertrain. The powertrain is very very hard to break.

The 3 year/36,000-mile warranty I'm talking about is bumper to bumper.

Sorry about the misplaced eye-rolling and sarcasm. :)

[Chip NoVaMac]

What sort of person would bend to such pressure? When you leave the dealership the salesperson is no longer over your shoulder or on your back. Filling out a survey that came in the mail or answering some questions over the phone aren't done at the sales lot.

CU and JDPA have the same methodology except that CU also conducts in-house testing. The survey-taking is the same as far as reports of reliability, service, overall experience and satisfaction.

You would be surprised. I am not sure that you ever worked or work in "high-end" sales, but the impression you leave the customer means more than you think.

Beyond that, I would rather trust the consumer that paid their money to CU, than companies that paid money to J.D. Powers. To be honest I have been part of the JD surveys, but they are generally within the first 60 to 90 days of ownership. Which really says nothing really about the quality of the product. To be fair, people like me can slam the New Beetle based on our experiences.

Forgive me, but it sounds as if you work for one of the American makers, or J. D. Powers.

[bousozoku]

Hyundai and Kia have always been the same company. And isnt Mazda made by Ford now?
...


No. Mazda cars are made by Mazda. Ford has a 51 percent stake in Mazda Motors, though.

I just talked to a friend from Korea and he reminded me that Hyundai bought Kia when it was up for auction but wanted it to keep the corporate identity. Daewoo wasn't so lucky since GM bought the assets and split things up with Suzuki (12 percent owned by GM, I believe) got 3 of the car designs.

[yg17]

That 10-year, 100,000 mile warranty only covers the powertrain. The powertrain is very very hard to break.

The 3 year/36,000-mile warranty I'm talking about is bumper to bumper.

Sorry about the misplaced eye-rolling and sarcasm. :)

im aware of that, my bumper to bumper is still 5 years though. but with my pontiac POS, just about everything that broke would be covered under a power train warranty, this, 10 years on some GM pile of crap could come in quite handy

[Spizzo]

I only buy American and Union Made. :D

[Ge4-ce]

I live in Belgium, in Europe.. Here it is not very common to drive an American car. But my dad (and I) are huge fans..

He had a Chevrolet blazer, bought in 1980, very good car!
he had a Pontiac Transport bought some 12 years later, medium car.
he had a Chevrolet Transport bought 6 years ago, pretty good car.
now he drives a Chevrolet Trailblazer. wich is a very very very good Car!!!!

only problem here in Europe is the price of the gas!! american cars tend to drink like a teenager on newyears eve!.. So we had all these cars (except the pontiac) converted to GPL or LPG, I don't know if this is a common thing in US to do, or if you know it. its with Liquid Pressure Gas. no Gasoline..

here, we pay about 1 $ for our gas.. except we get a litre, you guys get a gallon, wich is about 4 times as much..

LPG cost about 33ct. that's worth the conversion..

My personal dream is a Corvette.. smooth slik car..

Here, you see BMW, and Mercedes like hell. VW, Citroen and Peugot, all those european things. But an american car,... that's a bit more rare..

[jefhatfield]

it requires 32 gallons of gasoline to move 1 mile !?!
and I thoguht the ferrari enzo was a guzzler....
no wonder they are giving them away for free.

no that would be arnold in his hummer

the arnold whose muscles, made by steroids, turned into fat ;)

[Rod Rod]

im aware of that, my bumper to bumper is still 5 years though. but with my pontiac POS, just about everything that broke would be covered under a power train warranty, this, 10 years on some GM pile of crap could come in quite handy

The powertrain is what connects the transmission to the driving axles. The powertrain does not include the engine or transmission. Are you sure it was your drivetrain malfunctioning?

You would be surprised. I am not sure that you ever worked or work in "high-end" sales, but the impression you leave the customer means more than you think.

Beyond that, I would rather trust the consumer that paid their money to CU, than companies that paid money to J.D. Powers. To be honest I have been part of the JD surveys, but they are generally within the first 60 to 90 days of ownership. Which really says nothing really about the quality of the product. To be fair, people like me can slam the New Beetle based on our experiences.

Forgive me, but it sounds as if you work for one of the American makers, or J. D. Powers.

The second to last sentence contradicts the first paragraph. You're right about the first 60 to 90 days. That's why JDPA calls it the initial quality survey.

I just clicked around and found they do additional research beyond the first three months. They have ratings of used cars as well as ratings of how well used cars have retained their value.

For long term quality reporting I find it best to turn to car magazines. For used car value I look at kbb.com and edmunds.com.

I neither work for an American car company nor J.D. Powers. I used to work at a Honda dealership in the service department though. From my experience I can say avoid the fourth-generation Accords with automatic transmissions.

[aricher]

All I know is that I have a 1994 Honda Civic with 197,000+ miles on it and still rockin'. The body is starting to get beaten up but mechanically it is great. I'll be getting rid of it in the spring and will be going with yet another Honda - ya can't beat these cars for low fix-it cost, dependability, etc.

I have one uncle who works for GM and another for Daimer/Chrysler - both of them say the same thing - only suckers buy American engineered/made cars.

[slipper]

Rod Rod, take a chill pill. you are taking this theard way to seriously. taste is subjective; i am not going to change your taste in automobiles, vise versa. you make me laugh.

but btw i am absolutely not biased. however i do stand by my earlier response.

[Toe]

If you were to use today's technologies and design a method of getting people where they want to be, would you design the combustion engine automobile and the modern highway system?

I'm thinking you could come up with something (a lot of things) better.

Here's a start... http://www.carfree.com/
Nobody wants to bite?

[Rod Rod]

Rod Rod, take a chill pill. you are taking this theard way to seriously. taste is subjective; i am not going to change your taste in automobiles, vise versa. you make me laugh.

but btw i am absolutely not biased. however i do stand by my earlier response.

You stand by your earlier response where you took what I said completely out of context. :)

[slipper]

it may be out of context, however i cant think of anything else which would accurately describe your statement.

[bousozoku]

I live in Belgium, in Europe.. Here it is not very common to drive an American car. But my dad (and I) are huge fans..
...
Here, you see BMW, and Mercedes like hell. VW, Citroen and Peugot, all those european things. But an american car,... that's a bit more rare..

Trying to get older American cars or even current SUVs don't those narrow streets must be tough. I know it is doing that in Japan. That's why they have taxing on the width of a car.

It's easier to be a fan of those cars than to drive and afford them, isn't it?

[cheekyspanky]

No. Mazda cars are made by Mazda. Ford has a 51 percent stake in Mazda Motors, though.

Ford has a controlling stake of 33.4% apparantly (this being the Japanese laws version of a controlling stake), I heard it from the boss of Mazda Europe himself at a presentation at my university a little while ago.

Very interesting it was too, I liked the bit on viral marketing and it's importance in attracting younger buyers, and its low cost. He said something like - "there are rules on what we can broadcast on tv and radio, but on the internet there are no such rules, but the only things that really work are sex, violence and humour...can you guess which one we went with..." cue the tape of a traffic warden being munched up by an RX8.

I was hoping for the one featuring gratuitious sex, but it wasn't to be sadly!:D

On the American cars thing...I was amazed how cheap the Cadillac Escalade feels when you sit in it, the dash felt so cheap. The G6 I actually like, except the front looks a bit over the top in my view. ;)

[MacNut]

Why is this thread still here? It has nothing to do with mac hardware, plus it has gotten off of the topic in general.

[AliensAreFuzzy]

From your mouth to God's ears. I have a Baja '03. :)
I heard those really suck for reliability, not very Subaru-like.

[Rod Rod]

I heard those really suck for reliability, not very Subaru-like.

My dad's 2000 Subaru Outback couldn't pass emissions even after multiple repair attempts at the Subaru dealer. He ended up trading it in for a 2005 Chevy Equinox.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

While Japanese cars have had good reputations and good quality over the past ten years, evidence inside the industry is showing that they are slipping. Toyota and Honda both have had serious recall issues as of late (Honda has side airbag deployment problems in the Accord and will have to recall many of their 5-speed Autos that grind down the gears - Toyota also has airbag issues and serious oil buildup problems in their V6 engines). GM continues to have recall issues as well, though decreased from the past.

I was a huge fan of Toyota until about last year. As a researcher, I began to collect data on vehicles and what I found was startling - Toyota and Honda's warranty repair claims now run at a higher rate than GMs. Though the interiors may look and feel nicer, they are actually made of cheaper, more brittle materials. Honda leads the industry in its thinness of cloth and leather. Watch out not to tear the seat in a Honda, it's especially easy if you have leather - it's very thin with no backing.

Over the past two years, GM has been catching up - but things are changing. Of note is that most of GM's cars have been running on 20+ year old platforms. No more. GM is using hydroformed steel in their new designs and introducing platforms that are versatile and striking. They also have new technology from their Holden subsidiary in Australia that allows them to build multiple cars on the same line. To top it all off, Bob Lutz, a notorious car guy, is in charge of the models. GM doesn't have the incompetent managers in charge like the did in the 1980s and 1990s. Chrysler has also seen improvement over the past few years. Heck, even Ford has improved somewhat - but it's a fact that Honda and Toyota are having quality issues. As they have expanded, their quality gurus have not been able to keep things under control as in the past. They're running into the same problem that the Americans ran into in the past. Now the Americans are getting past it and the Japanese are getting into it. The trends indicate a big shift over the next five years - likely seeing many Japanese companies taking hits as quality control becomes more of an issue and American manufacturers get more aggressive.

As for the European vehicles, they are statistically the worst built cars in the world. 25% encounter serious warranty issues in the first three years. The American manufacturers have been up there, but now they are around 15% - nearly the same as the Hondas and Toyotas of the world.

[bdomz]

right, because being a 'japanese' car makes it good...
my toyota went through 5 mufflers in 10 years...
not to mention that japanese companies make their cars in the us now (nissan's in the south somewhere iirc).


lol your actually complaining about a car that has lasted 10 years. How many 10 year old Pontiacs do you see on the road?

[bousozoku]

Why is this thread still here? It has nothing to do with mac hardware, plus it has gotten off of the topic in general.

Perhaps, if you notified a moderator to move it to Community Discussion instead of spamming...

[MegaSignal]

American Cars, Japanese cars, Korean Cars.... WHO CARES


German Cars RULE!

Love my VW! Several hundred thousand miles and I still get 51mpg along with a terrific airconditioning/heating system...and not one body rattle!

(Don't know if is is technically still German: it was actually built in Puebla, Mexico...)

[MegaSignal]

To be honest, with him being the "snow belt" there may reason that the mufflers wear out that quickly. Here in the DC area most of us get 60K on a muffler if not more.

But you are right, that does not mean that Toyota builds a bad car. In most other ways they stand way better than most American cars.

Interesting...my Jetta has over 210,000 miles on the original muffler - in four seasons in Minnesota! Hmmm...

[Coolvirus007]

lol thats the biggest load of crap i heard on macforums to date.

I agree. (But it doesn't mean I don't like American cars thought. )

[Chip NoVaMac]

I heard those really suck for reliability, not very Subaru-like.

Well, knock on wood. I am coming on the end of the first year. Not one issue. Unlike my Ford '97 Ranger (3 trips for stuff that should not have happened), or the '99 Beetle (7 trips in the first year).

[Black&Tan]

actually they were donated by gm as a pr stunt

...and the news today is that each one of the "winners" will need to cough up a maximum of $7000 (depending on their tax bracket) to pay for the Federal and gov't taxes for each of these $28,000 vehicles.

What a wakeup call. I'd rather sell the car and turn around and pick up a nice 67/68 Mustang fastback, put the rest of the money into a restoration fund and have a car that REALLY turns heads!

[Chip NoVaMac]

...and the news today is that each one of the "winners" will need to cough up a maximum of $7000 (depending on their tax bracket) to pay for the Federal and gov't taxes for each of these $28,000 vehicles.

What a wakeup call. I'd rather sell the car and turn around and pick up a nice 67/68 Mustang fastback, put the rest of the money into a restoration fund and have a car that REALLY turns heads!

Can you provide a link? The initial word in another thread was that GM/Pontiac was picking up the taxes also. If not that is a bummer for these people, though I would hope that some bank would give them a low interest loan for the taxes. Far less than what I pay in car payments.

[Black&Tan]

Can you provide a link? The initial word in another thread was that GM/Pontiac was picking up the taxes also. If not that is a bummer for these people, though I would hope that some bank would give them a low interest loan for the taxes. Far less than what I pay in car payments.

Here's the link, from CNN/Money this morning...

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/22/news/newsmakers/oprah_car_tax/index.htm?cnn=yes

[Chip NoVaMac]

Here's the link, from CNN/Money this morning...

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/22/news/newsmakers/oprah_car_tax/index.htm?cnn=yes

Thanks, this is disappointing. First is that a smart buyer could get the $28,000 car for about $25,000. A small savings in taxes, but a savings none the less. More simply we are talking about $2 million in taxes. Between Oprah and GM, this is a drop in the bucket for people that "needed" a car.

Other than that, GM could have given them base G6's and paid the taxes on that - and not spend any more on the fully loaded models.

Hope this gives Oprah and GM a well deserved black eye.