Logic Pro 7 & Logic Express Released

[MacRumors]

Released this morning on Apple's website:
The industry-leading application for music creation and audio production dramatically broadens the capabilities of computer-based studio environments with Logic Pro 7 (http://www.apple.com/logic/). The first choice of many prominent musicians and producers, Logic Pro 7 provides the most comprehensive collection of music creation tools, all for $999.

Create your own music using an advanced spectrum of features and tools for computer based music production. Logic Express (http://www.apple.com/software/logicexpress/) provides a step up from GarageBand for aspiring musicians, producers and composers without breaking the bank. With the same flexible layout as Logic Pro, you can dive deeper into the creation and manipulation of audio and MIDI, for just $299.

A collection of new Jam Packs (http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/jampacks/) for GarageBand were also made available today.

[aricher]

I guess this quashes the "ProBand," rumors. $999 is a bit pricey but for pros it's a comprehensive studio solution that's cheaper than most on the market.

[Diatribe]

I think it's awesome that Apple switches to a over the year, whatever day of the week release schedule as opposed to releasing stuff on fixed days or dates. Lowers the anticipitaion a bit, albeit not much with us jumping every rumor. :D
But no rumors for this one... Apple did it again.

[DrGruv1]

FINALLY ABOUT TIME!!!! YEEE - HAAA :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :D

[AmigoMac]

Good for Audio pro users... nice seeing apple and mac in every area, still missing some points in Electrical engineering but I have time... I know it's no apple's fault, only those "idiots" who make my simulation program.... anyway... Good for the people who can enjoy a mac while doing music...

[aricher]

AmigoMac - not to get off topic here but what electrical eng. simulation program are you talking about?

[lindmar]

I am looking forward to checking out the new jam packs!

[må¥å]

Audio = iTunes > GarageBand > LogicExpress > LogicPro

Video = DVDPlayer > iMovie > FinalCut Express > FinalCut Pro

Optical = DVDPlayer > iDVD > ? > DVDStudio Pro

Image = Preview > iPhoto > ? > Motion

Text = AppleWorks > Keynote > ?




Well it would seem we are still missing some application in this Apple trend. I say we will be seeing a DVDStudio Express, and some other applications. DVDStudio Express will give you greater control over DVD creation and formats than iDVD and not cost as much or have all the features of DVDStudio Pro.

There is my Rumour ;) :D

[Brother Michael]

They [Apple] are really cranking out some nice looking products. Now I just need to get some money to buy a them and a new Mac to run them! :D

Glad to see that they are still hard at work!

Mike

[Trekkie]

Maya - you beet me to it. I was thinking the exact same thing when I was reading through the thread.

I must admit I do like their thought process. The difference between FCE and FCP is stuff I'd never want to use at home, but it has somethings iMovie can't do from what I've read (still waiting on my iMac G5 with FCE installed so I can't comment on it yet)

[pounce]

i'll be ordering my upgrade later today. looking forward to it.

the integrated wave burner pro thing is also very nice. not nearly enough mention of that.

[snej]

I think it's awesome that Apple switches to a over the year, whatever day of the week release schedule as opposed to releasing stuff on fixed days or dates.

Eddie Cue (Vice President Applications of Apple) did the Business Track keynote at the Popkomm (http://vip8prod.messe-berlin.de/vip8_1/website/Popkomm/Popkomm/ENG/home_en.html) conference that started in Berlin today. So today is a special music day, at least in Europe.

[Chaszmyr]

Glad to see the box sporting an Apple logo now :D

[macridah]

This software looks like it will make the pros happy. I'm still learning garage band ... i'm far from pro. Maybe someday.

[uhfmfp]

Audio = iTunes > GarageBand > LogicExpress > LogicPro

Video = DVDPlayer > iMovie > FinalCut Express > FinalCut Pro

Optical = DVDPlayer > iDVD > ? > DVDStudio Pro

Image = Preview > iPhoto > ? > Motion

Text = AppleWorks > Keynote > ?

Well it would seem we are still missing some application in this Apple trend. I say we will be seeing a DVDStudio Express, and some other applications. DVDStudio Express will give you greater control over DVD creation and formats than iDVD and not cost as much or have all the features of DVDStudio Pro.

There is my Rumour ;) :D

Apple are still missing a VERY important tool for music users: a "red book" compliant CD authoring tool. In fact, there is no such tool in OS X that I'm aware of, so I'm still using Emagic's WaveBurner Pro in OS 9. Very frustrating. What's worse is that WaveBurner Pro had a big notice on it when I bought it well over a year ago that OS X support was in the works.

Argh!

WaveBurner Pro should really be brought to OS X to compliment DVD Studio Pro... pro products for audio and video.

Regardless, Logic 7 does look amazing.

[Shagrat]

Hot Damn, but it's looking nice! Will be ordering in 5 minutes. This is well overdue!!!!

[AirUncleP]

Jam Packs are $99. Seems pricey to me.

[macMaestro]

Audio = iTunes > GarageBand > LogicExpress > LogicPro

Video = DVDPlayer > iMovie > FinalCut Express > FinalCut Pro

Optical = DVDPlayer > iDVD > ? > DVDStudio Pro

Image = Preview > iPhoto > ? > Motion

Text = AppleWorks > Keynote > ?

Dude, you have this seriously messed up.

Audio Production = GarageBand > Logic Express > Logic Pro

Audio Viewing = iTunes

Video Production = iMovie > Final Cut Express > Final Cut Pro

Video Viewing = Quicktime Player

DVD Production = iDVD > DVD Studio Pro (there's no middle gap as DVDSP addresses both the Pro and Prosumer markets)

DVD Viewing = DVD Player

Image Viewing = Preview (if you insist on including it) > iPhoto

Motion Graphics = Motion (what on earth does it have to do with images? by definition they don't move.)

Text = TextEdit > AppleWorks

Presentations = Keynote

[Sir_Giggles]

Motion Graphics = Motion > Shake

[jholzner]

Apple are still missing a VERY important tool for music users: a "red book" compliant CD authoring tool. In fact, there is no such tool in OS X that I'm aware of, so I'm still using Emagic's WaveBurner Pro in OS 9. Very frustrating. What's worse is that WaveBurner Pro had a big notice on it when I bought it well over a year ago that OS X support was in the works.

Argh!

WaveBurner Pro should really be brought to OS X to compliment DVD Studio Pro... pro products for audio and video.

Regardless, Logic 7 does look amazing.

From the press release:

Additionally, users can compile and burn CDs to the Red Book standard with WaveBurner, a stand alone mastering and CD burning application included with Logic Pro 7.

[tranquility]

WaveBurner Pro should really be brought to OS X to compliment DVD Studio Pro... pro products for audio and video.


WaveBurner -is- included in Logic pro 7!

It'll directly cut Redbook complient CDs.
They talk about it in the "Complete Music Studio" "features" section.

[crenz]

Value for money... I'll get the update as soon as I can afford it. I'm looking forward especially to using the new plug-ins.

[howard]

ooo 1/2 price student discounts.

i wish they had more pictures!! i get annoyed at how apple advertises.

also, you need a G5 as the node to do distributed computing... wish you would work between 2 powerbooks

[TopCatz]

It looks like a Logic Express 7 upgrade is only available to Logic Express 6 owners and not Logic Audio/Big Box owners, but you can upgrade to Logic Pro from Logic Gold/Platinum - which is really unfair!!!!
Anybody see an Audio upgrade?

[al_jedi]

This looks great! I only wish it supported VST.

How does it compare to Cubase SX3?

[cluthz]

I used logic audio (version 4) several years ago, but im used it mostly to compose music. Now i'm looking for a cheap (i'm a student and the discount is good) program that i can use score editor and play the files thru quicktime music synthesizer.

Garageband has eveything i want, except the most important, score editor and midifile support..

Is this what o'm looking for??
edit: yeah, i'm talking about the express version, no the full pro version.

[Porchland]

I guess this quashes the "ProBand," rumors. $999 is a bit pricey but for pros it's a comprehensive studio solution that's cheaper than most on the market.

Probably so. Apple's web site is promoting Logic Express as "a step up from GarageBand," which tells me ProBand, if there is such an animal in the works, would have to do something else. I've speculated in previous posts that ProBand might be a soundboard application for live performances.

I don't know where Soundtrack is going to fit into things.

Logic >> Logic Express >> GarageBand

Soundtrack would seem to fall right where Logic Express sits in this equation, and it is marketed more or less the same as Logic Express. Why have both?

EDIT: Also, I just noticed that Apple lists Soundtrack under Pro Applications, right there with Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Motion and Shake. These five applications all do distinctly different things; Soundtrack really doesn't. I'm guessing Soundtrack will be phased out, though today would have been the obvious day to announce that.

[swissmann]

So what is ProBand then? I wish I was more musical I could get into something like this.

[uhfmfp]

WaveBurner -is- included in Logic pro 7!

It'll directly cut Redbook complient CDs.
They talk about it in the "Complete Music Studio" "features" section.

Thanks!!! I can't believe I missed that! :)

[må¥å]

Dude, you have this seriously messed up.

Audio Production = GarageBand > Logic Express > Logic Pro

Audio Viewing = iTunes

Video Production = iMovie > Final Cut Express > Final Cut Pro

Video Viewing = Quicktime Player

DVD Production = iDVD > DVD Studio Pro (there's no middle gap as DVDSP addresses both the Pro and Prosumer markets)

DVD Viewing = DVD Player

Image Viewing = Preview (if you insist on including it) > iPhoto

Motion Graphics = Motion (what on earth does it have to do with images? by definition they don't move.)

Text = TextEdit > AppleWorks

Presentations = Keynote

If you look carefully :) I have merged the players with the products for creation, since though you can play it on a creator application you still need a player for general use.

I believe there will be an Office Suit from Apple and a Wed Development Suit in the works.......thus I have not mentioned QuickTime that deals with Multimedia that will fall into the Web Suit.

Apple is not trying to complicate its application offerings they are trying to fit it into peoples daily life. And as with finance there will prob be an application included in Office...nothing to file your taxes just a basic finance book tracker. That way you can add the tax % for which ever country or state you reside in.

BTW I am not a *DUDE*. take care. :) <--- no harm done. :D

UPDATE Motion is the future of PS and LiveMotion merged into one. You can take video files and make it into still art, there might be an application that combines Motion and iPhoto....however Apple has to be positive that its superior to PS, since once they step on Adobes toes I see no PS 9 in the future if indeed they do this. Same thing goes for Apple Office Suit and M$.

Apple is playing safe, learning from its competitors and BOOM, create something twice and easy to use than the rivals. Innocent Apple I think not LOL. Smart Business Plan, this way they can have better compatibility and development when making changes to the OS and integrate it nicely. Right now they are trying to convert the masses in the industry slowly to they standard....since we already have way too many formats etc.....

So this is a good thing since we are all mving towards open standards, however Apple will be in control.........some people might love it some will hate the M$ approach.

[sagestudio]

I used logic audio (version 4) several years ago, but im used it mostly to compose music. Now i'm looking for a cheap (i'm a student and the discount is good) program that i can use score editor and play the files thru quicktime music synthesizer.

Garageband has eveything i want, except the most important, score editor and midifile support..

Is this what o'm looking for??
edit: yeah, i'm talking about the express version, no the full pro version.

I use Logic almost exclusively for notation. I think it's awesome for that, and this from the Logic Express 7 page looks exciting!

Total Score

Songwriters can produce impressive demo songs by incorporating audio recordings, sample-based sounds and virtual instruments entirely on the computer. But users will find it easy to share compositions with other musicians in a traditional way with Logic Express as well, since it now houses the full-featured score editor from Logic Pro, for simply stunning results.

[Porchland]

So what is ProBand then?

The rumored pro version of GarageBand. Apple service marked "ProBand" a several months back.

[wdlove]

This looks like a great release. Will appeal to the amateur and pro, with a reasonable price.

[må¥å]

The rumored pro version of GarageBand. Apple service marked "ProBand" a several months back.

Could mean anything, it doesn't seem likely that its a PRO GarageBand. Apple might have registered the name and dropped the idea since they figured everyone who uses Logic and it also have its own name recognition, so why throw that away...its priceless.

Apple has registered many names and never used them, maybe they are future internal work or contracts for other things. Doesn't mean just because it sports the word BAND it is linked to GarageBand.

Might as well have the name registered and not use it then to not register it and have to use some corny name. :)

[ijimk]

Very nice. i am glad this is released. i have been messing around with garage band I might pick this up. :p

[sagestudio]

If you purchased Pro 6 within the last 30 days can you get the upgrade free? Anyone know?

[fucanay]

But no rumors for this one... Apple did it again.

The rumors have been going for months in the OSX Audio world. And there had been a lot of debate on features and whether or not the new instruments would be included with it or sold separately.

fucanay

[RStone]

I think the most interesting thing to note about the new Logic's is that under the tech specs, Pro requires the USB port for the XSKey, whereas there's nothing about it under Express's specs...

Does this mean Apple has taken away the XSKey requirement for Express?? That's a big step backwards in copy protection...Logic is still one of the most impossible programs to crack because of the XSKey.

[Natron]

Soundtrack is aimed at the video market, where as Logic Express is aimed at audio prosumers. Also, I think Soundtrack lacks some features when compared to Logic Express.

I would probably use Soundtrack, as opposed to Logic Express (even if I was buying it separate from Final Cut Pro), as I am a video person.

Personally, I thought Logic Express/Pro would become ProBand, but seeing as it didn't, I don't know where ProBand would fit in.

As for a DVD app between iDVD and DVD Studio Pro, I'm not sure that will happen. While it might be good (features of DVD Studio Pro without all the control), I think iDVD is on a more mid-level when compared to DVD SP, than say iMovie, which is more beginner, when compared to Final Cut Pro, leaving room for Final Cut Express.

EDIT: Last paragraph.

[pgwalsh]

The distributed audio processing and new plugins look pretty cool. Does anyone know where you can find a full feature list? I want to see what midi processors are available.

Also, it's too bad they don't support VST becaue many of my plugins haven't been ported to AU yet and I don't know if they ever will.

[Windowlicker]

Nice to see apple simplifying the logic product family to correspond their other line-up. I didn't have too much time to investigate what's new and what makes this version a must-have. Did anyone else go through the documentation?

[Porchland]

Soundtrack is aimed at the video market, where as Logic Express is aimed at audio prosumers. Also, I think Soundtrack lacks some features when compared to Logic Express.

I would probably use Soundtrack, as opposed to Logic Express (even if I was buying it separate from Final Cut Pro), as I am a video person.


I don't know Soundtrack or Logic Express well enough to appreciate feature differences, but the applications seem to do the same thing. The fact that one is aimed at video users and the other is aimed at audio users is just marketing; it doesn't explain why Apple would continue to sell Soundtrack if it's functionally equivalent to Logic Express.

Is there a need for both?

[fucanay]

I don't know Soundtrack or Logic Express well enough to appreciate feature differences, but the applications seem to do the same thing. The fact that one is aimed at video users and the other is aimed at audio users is just marketing; it doesn't explain why Apple would continue to sell Soundtrack if it's functionally equivalent to Logic Express.

Is there a need for both?

Soundtrack is really geared toward people who don't play music. That just want to put a bunch of loops together and make songs for films or just for fun.

Logic Express can do far more than that. You could record and mix an entire band with it. recording multiple tracks at once is a big difference. If you need to record a drummer, Soundtrack won't do. It also has support for virtual instruments and I don't think Soundtrack does.

Logic Pro is Logic Express with tons more features. All of the good plugins and instruments. Number of tracks is larger. Etc.

fucanay

[pgwalsh]

Logic Pro is Logic Express with tons more features. All of the good plugins and instruments. Number of tracks is larger. Etc.

fucanayHave you or anyone else seen a full list of features. I'd really like to see a list of the midi capabilities. What I see on the website is very limited. I know Logic is supposed to be the king of midi, but there's little focus on Apples website.

[Poff]

Look at the bottom of this comparison-page: (Select Software Instruments - External Instruments)

http://www.apple.com/software/logicexpress/comparison.html

Does this mean Logic Express does not support third party, audio-unit soft-synths?

[dontmatter]

A little off topic, but can anybody tell me what "Protools" is? A guy I know who does a lot of professional recording always talks about it, but I don't actually know what it is. Maybe it's a suite of the pro versions of stuff, versus the "i____" versions of stuff?

[afields]

WOO-HOO!! :) :) :D :D

I am sooo buying this. The new plug-ins look interesting. The interface looks better.

*does cartwheels*

[numediaman]

It's nice that this offers support for 24-bit/96kHz work. But as far as I know Apple has no products that will let you burn this to DVD-Audio. There are a couple of PC products out there, but nothing on the Mac side.

[Montserrat]

Soundtrack is really geared toward people who don't play music. That just want to put a bunch of loops together and make songs for films or just for fun.


I'm currently using Soundtrack as a loop player to compliment Reason via Rewire (I know Reason has its own, but it doesn't allow recording/loads of ***** Soundtrack can do). I only got Soundtrack because there was a 75% student discount, but now being very tempted by new Logics...

Has anyone else noticed the need for a "free USB port" for copy protection key? Has Apple done this before? (Soundtrack is the only "Pro" software I own, so I'm not very knowledgable in this area) I tend to find my PB's USB ports get quite full when I'm doing music stuff, so presumably the key would only be needed on installation?

[MentalFabric]

A little off topic, but can anybody tell me what "Protools" is? A guy I know who does a lot of professional recording always talks about it, but I don't actually know what it is. Maybe it's a suite of the pro versions of stuff, versus the "i____" versions of stuff?

For a start, ProTools are made by digidesign... a maker of things like studio desks. If you want, you can check a demo of it... http://www.digidesign.com/

[Natron]

From what I understand, Soundtrack was released as an audio/music app to accompany Final Cut Pro. Originally, the only way to get it was to buy FCP, until they released the stand alone version, mainly (I think) for Final Cut Express users. I'd really like to see a feature list comparing Soundtrack and Logic Express.

[pgwalsh]

For a start, ProTools are made by digidesign... a maker of things like studio desks. If you want, you can check a demo of it... http://www.digidesign.com/Also protools is mainly for Audio and not so much for midi. It does support it better now. You can blow 10, 15, 20K on a protools setup. Digidesign offers protools LE for much less, but it's rather limited.

[toontra]

Has anyone else noticed the need for a "free USB port" for copy protection key? Has Apple done this before? (Soundtrack is the only "Pro" software I own, so I'm not very knowledgeable in this area) I tend to find my PB's USB ports get quite full when I'm doing music stuff, so presumably the key would only be needed on installation?

Don't know about other Apple products using one, but emagic logic has used the USB dongle for a long while now and it's very effective in preventing unauthorised use.

BTW, it's not only needed for installation - it needs to be connected whenever you are using the software.

[Porchland]

Soundtrack is really geared toward people who don't play music. That just want to put a bunch of loops together and make songs for films or just for fun.

Logic Express can do far more than that. You could record and mix an entire band with it. recording multiple tracks at once is a big difference. If you need to record a drummer, Soundtrack won't do. It also has support for virtual instruments and I don't think Soundtrack does.

Logic Pro is Logic Express with tons more features. All of the good plugins and instruments. Number of tracks is larger. Etc.

fucanay

Essentially, then, Apple has four different audio apps with features added as you move up the chain.

Logic Pro >> Logic Express >> Soundtrack >> GarageBand

If I get what you're saying, Soundtrack would fall a few features shy of Logic Express; the main difference is handling of live instruments. If you take away this feature, do you have plain old Soundtrack with a different interface? If Apple dropped Soundtrack and added its loop library to GarageBand, would you be any worse off with GarageBand?

[Porchland]

I'd really like to see a feature list comparing Soundtrack and Logic Express.

And GarageBand.

[howard]

I used logic audio (version 4) several years ago, but im used it mostly to compose music. Now i'm looking for a cheap (i'm a student and the discount is good) program that i can use score editor and play the files thru quicktime music synthesizer.

Garageband has eveything i want, except the most important, score editor and midifile support..

Is this what o'm looking for??
edit: yeah, i'm talking about the express version, no the full pro version.

if you just want a score editor, nothing for recording, then i would look into sibelius, or finale.

Logic is mainly for recording audio or midi, the score editor more of an addition. Sibelius and Finale are score editors and very very complex. They can import midi files, and they can also play your score from a seperate synth. They might be more what you are looking for.

[sagestudio]

if you just want a score editor, nothing for recording, then i would look into sibelius, or finale.

Logic is mainly for recording audio or midi, the score editor more of an addition. Sibelius and Finale are score editors and very very complex. They can import midi files, and they can also play your score from a seperate synth. They might be more what you are looking for.

Logic's score features are very powerful, granted not as many features as traditional notation programs like Finale. Logic's sequencer makes playing in the score more accurate and having the ability to do audio recording as well is very helpful. I use it 90% for notation and would never go back to Finale.

[cspace]

maybe this "ProBand" thing is an interface into the iTunes music store. you pay $100 a year or something and get to upload your music to iTunes...? i thought i heard something about such a thing months ago...

[Redboy]

Now what I would reall like is a discounted price on Logic Express when buying a new machine much like there is with Final Cut Express. I'm about to buy a new machine, and would like to make the jump from Cubase to Logic, and this would make it a bit more affordable for me...

Anybody know if there is a cross-grade price? I haven't seen one.

[DigDug]

I noticed in the feature grid that Express doesn't have a "marker track" -- does that mean you can't add markers? That seems strange to me; markers are so essential and obviously not a big deal to program. Or is a marker track something else?

I don't mean to make a big deal of it, but for me, markers would actually be the single most compelling reason to upgrade from GarageBand -- when I'm, say, adding vocals on a guitar track, I always come in at the wrong time and waste a lot of takes. I really need markers so I can mark the chord changes.

[Natron]

I noticed in the feature grid that Express doesn't have a "marker track" -- does that mean you can't add markers? That seems strange to me; markers are so essential and obviously not a big deal to program. Or is a marker track something else?

I don't mean to make a big deal of it, but for me, markers would actually be the single most compelling reason to upgrade from GarageBand -- when I'm, say, adding vocals on a guitar track, I always come in at the wrong time and waste a lot of takes. I really need markers so I can mark the chord changes.

Send that feedback to Apple (through the GarageBand menu in GarageBand), I'm guessing we'll see an update to iLife '05 in January.

[dstorey]

Audio = iTunes > GarageBand > LogicExpress > LogicPro

Video = DVDPlayer > iMovie > FinalCut Express > FinalCut Pro

Optical = DVDPlayer > iDVD > ? > DVDStudio Pro

Image = Preview > iPhoto > ? > Motion

Text = AppleWorks > Keynote > ?

Well it would seem we are still missing some application in this Apple trend. I say we will be seeing a DVDStudio Express, and some other applications. DVDStudio Express will give you greater control over DVD creation and formats than iDVD and not cost as much or have all the features of DVDStudio Pro.

There is my Rumour ;) :D

How i see it using Apples categories on their site is:

Film

Viewer: Quicktime
Consumer: iMovie Prosumer: Final Cut Express Pro: Final Cut Pro

Video

Viewer: DVD Player
Consumer: iDVD Prosumer: Null [DVD SE?] Pro: DVD Studio Pro

then you've got your Motion and Shake that dont fit in any of these series and don't have a Pro tag attached. What is missing is a 3D app for creating the 3ED content that goes into movies and could be composited with Shake. Apple did not bite when Maya was sold so perhaps something might come of their known support of Luxology - it would be a nice acquisition to compliment final cut pro and shake.

Music + Audio

Player: iTunes
Consumer: GarageBand Prosumer: Logic Express Pro: Logic Pro

with Soundtrack being part of Final Cut Pro and mostly for the film part of the matrix.

Photo

Viewer: any photo app really, but Preview or iPhoto if you must
Consumer: iPhoto [especially post Tiger with core image] Prosumer: null Pro: null

This is a near blank area for Apple, probably very weary of stepping on Adobe's toes. Would be nice if they could buy out Adobe but they are probably way too expensive. A pro photo app would be nice to integrate with the movie stuff also for touching up frames and images etc.

Design

similar to photo but if we include drawing as opposed to photo then we have nothing of note except a viewer, not even a basic app a la Paint [yes that is very basic ;)]. Again, relying on Adobe or Macromedia for this area. Same could be said for Print, except with Adobe and Quark.

Words

Viewer: Preview
Consumer: TextEdit Prosumer: AppleWorks Pro: null apart from Keynote and Filemaker

This could be cut into two categories as most users would probably need more than TextEdit offers, even though it is a nice little app with all the stuff cocoa offers [and Tiger offering more enhancements to the doc capabilities]

Then if you look at web design they don't really have anything except the WebObjects, which still looks stuck in the NeXT days with a lot of its interfaces and the html builder part really needs a makeover. You could look at it like:

Viewer: Safari
Consumer: HomePage [needs .mac] Prosumer: null Pro: Web Objects

It's interesting that Shake and Logic are not in the Production Suite. Could there be other suites on the way that include shake [possibly too expensive] and a Music Production Suite with Logic Pro other tools that offer what Logic lacks. Especially noticeable is that the production suite apps and shake all have similar style artwork which Logic becomes a Apple app and has the black box style look.

If we are going crazy with the wish lists, I'd like to see a video express suite of some sort, a 3D modeller/renderer [possibly through whatever luxology has up its sleeves in that area and renderman]. Apple drawing and
photo apps that make use of core Image, with an i app for drawing.

I'd like to see a iWork suite to replace AppleWorks, and a pro work suite that consists of Document, Keynote, Apple branded filemaker or a nice front end to MySQL/SQLite and a excel type app. The iWork version woul be a cut down versions of each of the app, kind of like how the express apps are. Then i'd like to see WebObjects really updated and not let to rot, with a nice app included to produce web pages with css etc and templates. An express version could remove all the stuff like web services and the advanced Java apps and just leave the html/web page bits.

[DigDug]

Send that feedback to Apple (through the GarageBand menu in GarageBand), I'm guessing we'll see an update to iLife '05 in January.

Yeah! I'll do that! Hear me roar!

[JBytes]

I think the most interesting thing to note about the new Logic's is that under the tech specs, Pro requires the USB port for the XSKey, whereas there's nothing about it under Express's specs...

Does this mean Apple has taken away the XSKey requirement for Express?? That's a big step backwards in copy protection...Logic is still one of the most impossible programs to crack because of the XSKey.

This would be great news as far as I'm concerned. I currently use Cubase SX on my main PowerMac, but need a second copy as a scratchpad for my 12" PB. The whole dongle protrusion out of the PB doesn't appeal to me much. I'll gladly shell $300 for Logic Express if it doesn't have the crummy dongle.


--JBytes

[Redboy]

I hate the dongle with a real passion.

[Garissimo]

Someone help me out here, I have no experience with Logic. Is the GUI in this version a departure from version 6? Does it work similar to GarageBand where you can just plonk down audio, stretch, crop and change tempo to your heart's content? (assuming you're using an Apple Loop)

Also, does the "Pro" version look like it's worth an extra $700? I've looked through the feature checklists and can see differences but what are the more significant bullet points?

TIA

[WM.]

Probably so. Apple's web site is promoting Logic Express as "a step up from GarageBand," which tells me ProBand, if there is such an animal in the works, would have to do something else. I've speculated in previous posts that ProBand might be a soundboard application for live performances.
I doubt it. It wouldn't be cost-effective at the low end. At the high end, it wouldn't be an acceptable interface for mixing, although there it could be cost-effective and the interface problem could be solved with external control surfaces. But Apple probably wouldn't be able to offer any advantages over Digidesign's new Venue (which, BTW, starts in the $40,000 range if I remember correctly...).

WM

[kanker]

Have you or anyone else seen a full list of features. I'd really like to see a list of the midi capabilities. What I see on the website is very limited. I know Logic is supposed to be the king of midi, but there's little focus on Apples website.There is absolutely no way to quantify the MIDI features in Logic. Logic contains a ridiculously comprehensive layer called the Environment which basically allows to to implement MIDI in ways you never dreamed of, to create virtual MIDI devices that will do things that would be virtually impossible any other way (without an ungodly outlay of bread). It's basically more flexible and more powerful as a MIDI platform than all the other apps you could think of put together and then some. The problem is that it's so powerful, that getting your head around it can take a while, but once you get into it, the sky's literally the limit.

[kanker]

I guess this quashes the "ProBand," rumors. $999 is a bit pricey but for pros it's a comprehensive studio solution that's cheaper than most on the market.Including the new plugs, the $999 is a steal. A year ago, the Pro package, including everything new, would have EASILY run well over $4000 - it's a ridiculous deal.

[xtbfx]

Thank goodness for the education discount. Now I can get Logic for $500. Nice, thanks Apple!!

[h'biki]

A little off topic, but can anybody tell me what "Protools" is? A guy I know who does a lot of professional recording always talks about it, but I don't actually know what it is. Maybe it's a suite of the pro versions of stuff, versus the "i____" versions of stuff?

ProTools is the benchmark in audio editing and mixing. Its made by Digidesign and has won many Oscars and Emmys.

Its very intuitive.

[Blue Moon]

So if Waveburner is included with the Pro version how will folks with the Express version get their music on CD?

[kanker]

ProTools is the benchmark in audio editing and mixing. Its made by Digidesign and has won many Oscars and Emmys.

Its very intuitive.I don't know if it's the benchmark, but it is the industry standard. The advances in computer power and distributed computing are going to give ProTools something to think about - massive amounts DSP for a fraction of the costs of a TDM system, all accessible from any control room in a studio. The next couple of years will be interesting - but will the industry notice.

[sagestudio]

So if Waveburner is included with the Pro version how will folks with the Express version get their music on CD?
Bounce the file as AIF or SDII and drag it into iTunes. Works great.

[Blue Moon]

Bounce the file as AIF or SDII and drag it into iTunes. Works great.

Could you describe a bit more detail as to the first part of that process? I use Digital Performer and have never figured out how to put my midi compositions on CD and am wondering if Logic will be easier to do that on.

[phasornc]

Look at the bottom of this comparison-page: (Select Software Instruments - External Instruments)

http://www.apple.com/software/logicexpress/comparison.html

Does this mean Logic Express does not support third party, audio-unit soft-synths?

No Logic Express does support AUs it does not support real physically hardware synths conected you your audio input. This is major feature of Logic 7 (and Cubase 3). The ability to access your external synths like and internal synth just makes sence. In Logic Six you have to pick a midi track and then you have to find the input of your synth in the logic audio mixer, and assign that input to a track. Granted this is not to difficult, but it can get in the way of the creative flow, especially around 3 in the morning

My big question is do they have the same setup for external effects. It is a complete PITA to route audio from a chanel to an output and then route it back in to another channel, the way you currently have to do it.

It would have been nice to have an Ableton Live style mixing window, apparently this type of thing is in Cubase SX 3, but then again Cubase doesn't come with as nearly as complete range of instruments as Logic. Logics instruments and effects really cover all the bases. As it is right now, the only AUs I really need are Phatmatik and Waves L2.

I'm interested to see how the GarageBand "instruments" are implemented. Are they just going to be XS24 patches or will there be something more?

It also would have been nice if Logic came with a decent (or even a crappy) GM module, but as it is right now you can sort of create the same thing with the envrionment and some decent SoundFonts converted into XS24, unfortunately that solution is just not very elegant.

[kanker]

To put MIDI (external I assume) stuff on CD, you first have to make them audio tracks. Logic Pro has now made that a little easier by letting you do that fairly painlessly, apparently. It's not very well documented from the light perusal I've done, but it looks like Logic will know (don't know if you have to tell it once or not) what MIDI device is in what audio in, and bouncing it to the track is a click away.

[badtz]

does anyone know how much the GUI has changed?


there's really no good photos on apple's page.

[puckhead193]

Audio = iTunes > GarageBand > LogicExpress > LogicPro

Video = DVDPlayer > iMovie > FinalCut Express > FinalCut Pro

Optical = DVDPlayer > iDVD > ? > DVDStudio Pro

Image = Preview > iPhoto > ? > Motion

Text = AppleWorks > Keynote > ?




Well it would seem we are still missing some application in this Apple trend. I say we will be seeing a DVDStudio Express, and some other applications. DVDStudio Express will give you greater control over DVD creation and formats than iDVD and not cost as much or have all the features of DVDStudio Pro.

There is my Rumour ;) :D

I too would like a dvd studio express, it will go nice with FCE andthe new logic express. I like havinga middle ground, imovie was simple and good for basic stuff, but whne u want to take it up a knotch, FCE is great, easy, more functions and affordible, $100 when u buy it with a new mac or even 300 is a great price for the software. I like how they have a middle ground. Not just very basic to extremely hard

[Montserrat]

Don't know about other Apple products using one, but emagic logic has used the USB dongle for a long while now and it's very effective in preventing unauthorised use.

BTW, it's not only needed for installation - it needs to be connected whenever you are using the software.

Ok Please tell me I can whip it out (in a manner of speaking) once the program is running? Otherwise there is noway I'm buying this! If it's only a startup requirment I'll get my Mastercard out now. :)

[RStone]

The dongle must be in the USB port when using the program. If you remove it, you'll likely get a message to put it back in, or quit. Annoying, perhaps, but effective? 100%. Logic is the holy grail of the Mac cracking community. Nobody has been able to do it, except by obtaining a demo dongle and using a small program that alters your system clock to fool the program into thinking that time is standing still, and thus the 30-day trial lasts. This is not a crack though, merely a workaround.

But it's also a reason many don't use it. It's impossible to try out unless you have a key, which is difficult to obtain, and the only known way is through the Pro Training book by Peachpit Press. The hassles of the key have turned many people away towards their competitors (MOTU, Cubase, ProTools, Gigasampler, etc.)

The key itself is the size of a USB flash drive. I personally love the fact that Apple is getting rid of it at least for Express, as I think it's a big turn off, especially to people at the Prosumer level, or those upgrading from Garageband. Hopefully someday Logic Pro will follow, but that's not as likely.

[pascalpp]

it looks like they overhauled most of the interface and window controls. the buttons in particular look like they follow the style of all the other pro apps. hopefully they've cleaned up the layout and organization of the menus and various dialogs. not to mention the key commands window. the whole damn program has been so ugly for so long, i can't wait to see this version.

it also looks like Logic Pro and Logic Express have new icons (http://www.apple.com/software/logicexpress/comparison.html
). cool.

sweetwater said my upgrade should ship on friday.

yay!

[kanker]

Nobody has been able to do it, except by obtaining a demo dongle and using a small program that alters your system clock to fool the program into thinking that time is standing still, and thus the 30-day trial lasts. This is not a crack though, merely a workaround.Oh, it's been cracked - I know guys who've used it (disclaimer - NOT ME - I am an extremely conscientious software user), it uses an XSkey emulator, and gives new meaning to the word unstable. Personally, I prefer the XSkey dongle over other copy protection methods, maybe with the exception of the way Reason handles it (and the fact that they make your authorization easily accessible on their website if you need it is a plus).

[hurtle]

Personally, I prefer the XSkey dongle over other copy protection methods, maybe with the exception of the way Reason handles it (and the fact that they make your authorization easily accessible on their website if you need it is a plus).

I agree and I don't understand the problem with the xkey. If you're worried about it sticking out and being broken, just plug it into the end of a USB extender cable, like I have.

Anyway, I ordered my upgrade from Logic 6 Pro and I can't wait. Ultrabeat is what I'm most looking forward to, plus Apple loops.

[ryanw]

I think it's awesome that Apple switches to a over the year, whatever day of the week release schedule as opposed to releasing stuff on fixed days or dates. Lowers the anticipitaion a bit, albeit not much with us jumping every rumor. :D
But no rumors for this one... Apple did it again.

Well, I think macrumors is losing their touch. I'm sure someone had to mention that Logic 7 Pro was coming out in october, it was obvious and about time, but instead of saying something on page 2 they just let it go... Not sure what their motivation (or unmotivation) is lately.

[JFreak]

Apple are still missing a VERY important tool for music users: a "red book" compliant CD authoring tool. In fact, there is no such tool in OS X that I'm aware of, so I'm still using Emagic's WaveBurner Pro in OS 9. Very frustrating.

roxio jam

[NickFalk]

I too would like a dvd studio express, it will go nice with FCE andthe new logic express. I like how they have a middle ground. Not just very basic to extremely hard
The truly brilliant thing about DVD Studio Pro is the fact that it is as complicated as you choose it to be!

If you run it with the simpelst interface-setup you in effect do have a DVD Studio Express. When you want to "upgrade" you just choose the complex-setup without paying for an upgrade... :D

[Porchland]

Well, I think macrumors is losing their touch. I'm sure someone had to mention that Logic 7 Pro was coming out in october, it was obvious and about time, but instead of saying something on page 2 they just let it go... Not sure what their motivation (or unmotivation) is lately.

I've been disappointed at what's been posted lately. The lead "rumor" for about a week was an OS security update -- not a rumored one but an actual one. macosrumors.com has been more active lately.

I have enjoyed this thread and would like to see more rumors posted about upgrade features in Tiger, iLife and other expected updates. I think people here enjoy posting about the new, new thing.

[Porchland]

The truly brilliant thing about DVD Studio Pro is the fact that it is as complicated as you choose it to be!

If you run it with the simpelst interface-setup you in effect do have a DVD Studio Express. When you want to "upgrade" you just choose the complex-setup without paying for an upgrade... :D

I completely agree, but this set-up has made it very easy for Apple to draw a circle around the middle setup, cut out the top-end features, and call it DVD Studio Express. The "Express" movement is largely about getting consumers to step up from iLife and spend a little money on the products Apple has spent a lot of money to develop -- even if it's junior versions.

I would like to see Apple to continue supporting Express versions, but it does raise the question where to add new features first. For example, iMovie has the Ken Burns Effect as a feature, but Final Cut Express does not. Why? I don't know, but the result is that iMovie handles pics better than FCE. I like seeing innovation in iLife, but I would hate to miss out on something when I've paid more money for greater functionality.

[Poff]

No Logic Express does support AUs it does not support real physically hardware synths conected you your audio input. This is major feature of Logic 7 (...) decent SoundFonts converted into XS24, unfortunately that solution is just not very elegant.

ahh.. I see. Thanks!

I think the usb-dongle thingie is a great copy-protection. I just wish all software would go down that route. And maybe music too..?

[sagestudio]

Could you describe a bit more detail as to the first part of that process? I use Digital Performer and have never figured out how to put my midi compositions on CD and am wondering if Logic will be easier to do that on.
In Logic you can use audio software instruments which use midi but are easier to convert to audio. You can edit them the same way as midi, but then you can bounce them as audio. Otherwise, with straight midi files, you have to send the midi signal out through your piano or whatever, and then back into your sound card and record it as audio. This audio file can then be recorded on cd. Does that make sense?

[njmac]

DVD Studio Pro could become DVD Studio express and apple could introduce a true pro app that could compete with Sonic Scenarist (what most pro's actually use for feature films).

[squareyes]

ahh.. I see. Thanks!

I think the usb-dongle thingie is a great copy-protection. I just wish all software would go down that route. And maybe music too..?


I have never seen a real crack for the usb dongle and since apple bought emagic I've been expecting it to be used on all the "pro" apps.
It would take a huge byte out of all the pirates.

[Blue Moon]

In Logic you can use audio software instruments which use midi but are easier to convert to audio. You can edit them the same way as midi, but then you can bounce them as audio. Otherwise, with straight midi files, you have to send the midi signal out through your piano or whatever, and then back into your sound card and record it as audio. This audio file can then be recorded on cd. Does that make sense?

I get what you're saying but I'm not sure how to use audio software instruments (hell, I don't even know what they are, I can't assume you're talking about samples) as opposed to straight midi files. I record mostly on my Alesis QS 8.1 with straight midi files on digital performer. I've never tried sending the signal back to my soundcard because, again, I don't what the process involves (I obviously have a lot of homework left to do). Up until now I have been happy setting up my MIDI instruments for a particular orchestration and then listening to it play back through Digital Performer itself.

[sagestudio]

I get what you're saying but I'm not sure how to use audio software instruments (hell, I don't even know what they are, I can't assume you're talking about samples) as opposed to straight midi files. I record mostly on my Alesis QS 8.1 with straight midi files on digital performer. I've never tried sending the signal back to my soundcard because, again, I don't what the process involves (I obviously have a lot of homework left to do). Up until now I have been happy setting up my MIDI instruments for a particular orchestration and then listening to it play back through Digital Performer itself.

This is how I do it. I send the midi signal out to my mixer from my synth. I have it coming in to a stereo channel on the mixer, then I send it back to my sound card from the mixer to input 1&2 (or whatever) on the card. Then I record from channels 1&2 in Logic and there ya go. An audio file that can be put on cd. There are other ways of doing this, but this is how I do it with my synth. Of course this only works if you are routing your signal back out to the synth for playback.

[Poff]

Up until now I have been happy setting up my MIDI instruments for a particular orchestration and then listening to it play back through Digital Performer itself.

So, if I'm getting you right, your synth is what's making the sound? In that case you should find a "line out" on your synth which you could connect to a "line in" on your computer. Then you could record sound from line in when playing back. Save the file and drag it into iTunes - and burn the CD. :)


Edit: oops, that's exactly what SageStudio had just told you.. sorry.. :)

[jdhuskey]

I used to love Waveburner, and that alone makes me want the Logic Pro 7 upgrade.

So what will happen to the Emagic hardware now (mt4, a26, a62, etc.)? I find no mention of them on Apple's site, and there's nothing but support left on Emagic's site. Sad.

[neut]

roxio jam

Redbook:
Peak4+ (only because it ships with Roxio Jam)

DSP Quattro


peace.

[pounce]

so to get back to the meat of things, when is logic pro going to have full pdc?

the audio sites like the marsh, osx audio, and gearslutz have been discussing this in further detail. anyway, it will remain my biggest gripe about what logic pro 7 doesn't have but all the competition finally does - pdc all over. get that done and we are getting somewhere.

ps: ordered the DP 4.5 upgrade today and it looks sweet. what an interesting time for audio on the mac again.

[chameeeleon]

Flashing back to DVD Studio Express - imagine an "Express Suite" of Final Cut Express 3, Logic Express 7 (have there really been Logic Expresses before? 6 of them?), and DVD Studio Express 1 unveiled at MacWorld to compliment iLife '05. Would be some stellar stuff from Apple.

[aafuss1]

Released this morning on Apple's website:


A collection of new Jam Packs (http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/jampacks/) for GarageBand were also made available today.

Suprising to know it's not ProBand-why drop the well known Logic name for something else. I would believe that is some sort improved or increased compatibility with Garageband.

[fucanay]

....Logic Express 7 (have there really been Logic Expresses before? 6 of them?),

Well, not by that name, but there used to be Logic Platinum, Gold and Silver. Express is silver and there have been versions of that going back to at least version 4 and maybe earlier.

fucanay

[NickFalk]

DVD Studio Pro could become DVD Studio express and apple could introduce a true pro app that could compete with Sonic Scenarist (what most pro's actually use for feature films).
Actually I have no experience with Sonic Scenarist at all, but after reading their feature-page I was actually unable to find one single feature mentioned that doesn't exist in DVD Studio Pro. Would you care to elaborate? :confused:

[Porchland]

Flashing back to DVD Studio Express - imagine an "Express Suite" of Final Cut Express 3, Logic Express 7 (have there really been Logic Expresses before? 6 of them?), and DVD Studio Express 1 unveiled at MacWorld to compliment iLife '05. Would be some stellar stuff from Apple.

Apple has certainly moved in that direction. Three of the five iLife apps (Garageband, iMovie, iDVD) are creative tools; the other two (iPhoto, iTunes) are essentially archival tools (though iPhoto has very limited editing tools).

iLife << Express << Pro
GarageBand << Logic Express << Logic Pro
iMovie << Final Cut Express << Final Cut Pro HD
iDVD << [DVD Studio Express] << DVD Studio Pro

If you add Adobe to the mix, you also have three levels of photo editors.

iPhoto << PhotoShop Elements << PhotoShop CS

I don't really see a huge need for Apple to get into the photo-editing app market since Adobe already does such a great job with Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I would, though, like to see Apple challenge Adobe GoLive and Macromedia Dreamweaver with an iLife, Express and Pro web site development app that would integrate with .Mac. (iSite? Too confusing with iSight?)

Like other posters, I think non-media apps won't be adeded to iLife but my be added to a new personal productivity (iWork?) that would include Keynote 2, a personal finance app and a revamped AppleWorks.

[squareyes]

Well, not by that name, but there used to be Logic Platinum, Gold and Silver. Express is silver and there have been versions of that going back to at least version 4 and maybe earlier.

fucanay

hey it goes all the way back to CREATOR and NOTATOR being sold at the same time. CREATOR not having notation........(a huge thing back then)

[jestershinra]

I:snip:

Has anyone else noticed the need for a "free USB port" for copy protection key? Has Apple done this before? (Soundtrack is the only "Pro" software I own, so I'm not very knowledgable in this area) I tend to find my PB's USB ports get quite full when I'm doing music stuff, so presumably the key would only be needed on installation?

No. The 'usb key' is called an XSkey. It was developed by Emagic to thwart pirating, and works extremely well in that regard. You must connect the key every time you want to use the program. The key contains access codes. It means the program is very, very difficult to crack.

It is worthwhile to note that, as of yet, only Logic 7 Pro will have this- they've left it off express. It makes me think they've got some other type of cd verification, because the XSkey is wonderful in stopping piracy.

[pounce]

time to get a hub. i've got a few. what can you do?

[Psychic Shopper]

[QUOTE=uhfmfp]Apple are still missing a VERY important tool for music users: a "red book" compliant CD authoring tool. In fact, there is no such tool in OS X that I'm aware of,

Adaptec Jam is a OSX and red book compliant CD authoring tool, you can buy it bundled with Toast 6

[DrGruv1]

Just checked my order...

LOGIC PRO 7 UPG LOG PRO 6,LGCPLT/GLD-INT

M9667Z/A

On or before
10/05/2004


$299.00

1

$299.00

YEEEEEEEEEE-HHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :D

http://www.musicrowsongs.com/order.jpg

[tliptak]

Anybody get there copy yet?

[Jeff Cross]

Apple are still missing a VERY important tool for music users: a "red book" compliant CD authoring tool. In fact, there is no such tool in OS X that I'm aware of, so I'm still using Emagic's WaveBurner Pro in OS 9. Very frustrating. What's worse is that WaveBurner Pro had a big notice on it when I bought it well over a year ago that OS X support was in the works.

Argh!

WaveBurner Pro should really be brought to OS X to compliment DVD Studio Pro... pro products for audio and video.

Regardless, Logic 7 does look amazing.

Waveburner for OS X comes with Logic Pro 7! Its beautiful. It has been modernized and looks incredible.

[pascalpp]

Anybody get there copy yet?

I ordered the upgrade from sweetwater. my rep told me it should ship around oct. 17th or so. from the above, it sounds like some people managed to get it sooner?

[mr_bam]

UK: Logic 7 Pro delivered last Wednesday (6th October). From Sound Technology soundtech.co.uk

WaveBurner is included for OS X - looks fantastic - never used it before - but it appears to do full Red Book CDs including ISRC codes, CD Text and more.

All of Logic 7 now uses the Apple Pro interface and it looks fantastic IMO. I'd hoped they'd fix the old Emagic interface - it looked a bit dated and weird in some dialogs before. Very slick now though.

No problems so far at all with 7. Very stable upgrade. The new features are fantastic. Seems a little more Power Hungry than before. Works great on a DP 2GHz G5. But does run usably on a DP 500MHz G4 too.

Haven't tried the new Logic Node tool yet.

Still trying out all the new plug-ins and using the hundreds of GarageBand instruments that are automatically added to Logic 7 Pro - such a bonus to have all those instruments at hand.

Control Strip plug-in settings already ready for thousands of common audio / instrument scenarios are a great bonus and time saver too.

The Bounce feature on Logic 7 has been improved dramatically too - and it's in the File menu now (how many people never find the bounce button as first time Logic 5 or 6 users? - I know I had to look in the book back then to find it).

Overall a very worthwhile upgrade.

aled
North Wales, UK.

[stevesong]

Readers should be made aware that Apple is charging the full upgrade price of $299 even for those who purchased Logic Pro 6 within the last two months. I know because I purchased Logic Pro 6 from the Apple Store on August 20, 2004 and Apple representatives have told me that I am not eligible for any discount in the upgrade price. Apple's policy in this matter is in marked contrast to the policies of competing music software companies. I purchased an upgrade of Mark of the Unicorn's Digital Performer (going from version 2.6 to vers. 4.1.2) in early July. Mark of the Unicorn informed me that they will shortly send me version 4.5 without charge. In a similar vein, the price of upgrades for Tascam's Gigastudio 3 varies according to when the previous version was purchased. ($50.00 for recent purchasers, $249.00 for earlier purchasers). The policies of Mark of the Unicorn and Tascam are not unique in the software business - they are common practice for the simple reason that such policies generate good-will, customer loyalty and enthusiastic recommendations made to prospective customers. One has to hope that someone at Apple will perceive that the current policy has the potential for generating significant ill will among current Logic users and a chilling effect on prosepctive customers. Perhaps someone would like to explain how this upgrade policy squares with Apple's many statements about the importance of customer satisfaction?

[KidLoco]

Readers should be made aware that Apple is charging the full upgrade price of $299 even for those who purchased Logic Pro 6 within the last two months. I know because I purchased Logic Pro 6 from the Apple Store on August 20, 2004 and Apple representatives have told me that I am not eligible for any discount in the upgrade price. Apple's policy in this matter is in marked contrast to the policies of competing music software companies. I purchased an upgrade of Mark of the Unicorn's Digital Performer (going from version 2.6 to vers. 4.1.2) in early July. Mark of the Unicorn informed me that they will shortly send me version 4.5 without charge. In a similar vein, the price of upgrades for Tascam's Gigastudio 3 varies according to when the previous version was purchased. ($50.00 for recent purchasers, $249.00 for earlier purchasers). The policies of Mark of the Unicorn and Tascam are not unique in the software business - they are common practice for the simple reason that such policies generate good-will, customer loyalty and enthusiastic recommendations made to prospective customers. One has to hope that someone at Apple will perceive that the current policy has the potential for generating significant ill will among current Logic users and a chilling effect on prosepctive customers. Perhaps someone would like to explain how this upgrade policy squares with Apple's many statements about the importance of customer satisfaction?

I guess you didn't try hard enough.

I got it for $259, and I bought the Pro 6 upgrade in July.

I got my copy today, and so far so good! (actually, haven't had a chance to install it yet...)



I've been using Logic since 3.0 and this "loop browser" thing in 7 is new and incredible, can anybody tell me how i can make my own compatible loops? (so that it allows the formant, key, and tempo to change)

[stevesong]

I guess you didn't try hard enough.

I got it for $259, and I bought the Pro 6 upgrade in July.

I got my copy today, and so far so good! (actually, haven't had a chance to install it yet...)



I've been using Logic since 3.0 and this "loop browser" thing in 7 is new and incredible, can anybody tell me how i can make my own compatible loops? (so that it allows the formant, key, and tempo to change)

Dear Kidloco:

Anyone who has ever run a succesful business knows that good customer relations are an essential part of running a business. Successful businesses treat customers as partners not adversaries or fools to be taken advantage of. Customers should not have to make umpteen phone calls, write letters and carry on to get a company to act intelligently and fairly. If Apple had implemented an upgrade policy similar to that of its competitors, recent Logic Pro 6 purchasers would have little or no complaint. What does Apple's current policy bode for future upgrade policy? Why is Apple's Logic Pro 7 upgrade policy generating a lot of negative discussion on the internet and pettions to modify it? The answer is that Apple's policy does not appear to reflect strategic business thinking. A wise policy would have generated customer enthusiasm rather than complaint and thereby enhanced sales instead of hindering them. Anyway I'm glad you got a $40 price reduction, but that misses the point that Apple's upgrade policy doesn't make business sense and may have a damaging impact on Logic's future.

[gwangung]

Dear Kidloco:
Why is Apple's Logic Pro 7 upgrade policy generating a lot of negative discussion on the internet and pettions to modify it?

A lot of users who didn't note that an upgrade was imminent?

[KidLoco]

Dear Kidloco:

Anyone who has ever run a succesful business knows that good customer relations are an essential part of running a business. Successful businesses treat customers as partners not adversaries or fools to be taken advantage of. Customers should not have to make umpteen phone calls, write letters and carry on to get a company to act intelligently and fairly. If Apple had implemented an upgrade policy similar to that of its competitors, recent Logic Pro 6 purchasers would have little or no complaint. What does Apple's current policy bode for future upgrade policy? Why is Apple's Logic Pro 7 upgrade policy generating a lot of negative discussion on the internet and pettions to modify it? The answer is that Apple's policy does not appear to reflect strategic business thinking. A wise policy would have generated customer enthusiasm rather than complaint and thereby enhanced sales instead of hindering them. Anyway I'm glad you got a $40 price reduction, but that misses the point that Apple's upgrade policy doesn't make business sense and may have a damaging impact on Logic's future.

I totally understand what your saying. I really shouldn't of had to pay for the upgrade. I was using Logic Platinum 6, paid for the upgrade to Pro 6 and now paid for the upgrade for Pro 7.

The part that ticks me off, is that if I stayed on Platinum 5, it would cost to same to upgrade to 7. I paid for the upgrade to Platinum 6 and Pro 6....

[neut]

I totally understand what your saying. I really shouldn't of had to pay for the upgrade. I was using Logic Platinum 6, paid for the upgrade to Pro 6 and now paid for the upgrade for Pro 7.

The part that ticks me off, is that if I stayed on Platinum 5, it would cost to same to upgrade to 7. I paid for the upgrade to Platinum 6 and Pro 6....

hey, why not wait for version ten!!! then you could save a lot! :D

inform yourselves of the technology you use... nobody makes you do anything.


peace.

[stevesong]

hey, why not wait for version ten!!! then you could save a lot! :D

inform yourselves of the technology you use... nobody makes you do anything.


peace.

Dear Neut:

The issue here is not simply about personal complaints or decisions by individual customers it is about whether Apple is pursuing a winning strategy in marketing the Logic Pro 7 upgrade. Logic is currently not the dominant product in this industry. Apple would, no doubt, like to make it the dominant product. To do this would mean keeping Logic's customer base and expanding it. Policies that have the potential of reducing shrinking Logic's customer base may eventually impact all Logic users. If Apple's policies - which, as I pointed out in my first posting differ markedly from those of its competitors - have the effect of reducing Apple's profits from Logic then Logic users can look forward to little product development in the future.

Business history is littered with the stories of smaller creative companies that were taken over and run into the ground by larger companies who tried to squeeze the last dime out of the customer base they inherited. The exorbitant upgrade price Apple is charging to very recent Logic Pro 6 purchasers is a classic example of the kind of business thinking that focuses on short term gain rather than long term profits. Alienating a significant part of your customer base when you become the proprietor of a business seems an unlikely path to success in the marketplace. You are right: we all have the freedom to choose and I'm afraid that, given Apple's upgrade policy for Logic, some - perhaps a significant number of current Logic users - will choose to purchase competing products and work with companies that treat them as partners rather than as the objects of exploitation. If Logic is important to you and you care about whether your investment in Logic has a long term future, then you might consider adding your voice to those suggesting that Apple act in a wiser fashion.

[neut]

If Logic is important to you and you care about whether your investment in Logic has a long term future, then you might consider adding your voice to those suggesting that Apple act in a wiser fashion.

A companies policy is there own. I respct their desicions by buying their product. I do not use Logic (currently, $ and workload do not = Logic), but this last upgrade would make me want to purchase it.

It seems to me the upgrade policy only effects new customers that bought Logic on a whim (without educating themselves about the audio tech market). If you didn't know 7 was going to be there when you bought 6 then it your own fault. If Apple announced it... then you should wait to see the upgrade policy (or call). Why get mad at Apple? All there doing is looking at you going, "Dude, we told you it was coming... dumbass." 'Your' still the dumbass.

?

I still don't understand what the problem is; are you just protecting boneheadedness?


peace.


*Apple's a big computer company; they are not an Audio company (but they are becoming one). Give 'em some time.... but don't expect them to fall back on old ways. This aint MOTU.

[stevesong]

A companies policy is there own. I respct their desicions by buying their product. I do not use Logic (currently, $ and workload do not = Logic), but this last upgrade would make me want to purchase it.

It seems to me the upgrade policy only effects new customers that bought Logic on a whim (without educating themselves about the audio tech market). If you didn't know 7 was going to be there when you bought 6 then it your own fault. If Apple announced it... then you should wait to see the upgrade policy (or call). Why get mad at Apple? All there doing is looking at you going, "Dude, we told you it was coming... dumbass." 'Your' still the dumbass.

?

I still don't understand what the problem is; are you just protecting boneheadedness?


peace.


*Apple's a big computer company; they are not an Audio company (but they are becoming one). Give 'em some time.... but don't expect them to fall back on old ways. This aint MOTU.


Dear Organech;

Your note reminds me that it has become commonplace in recent times to substitute name-calling and insult (eg. "dumbass" "boneheaded" etc.) for intelligent discussion. In essence your argument seems another version of the theory that any customer with a complaint about a comany's behavior is to blame for not being smart enough to outsmart the company. I don't know everyone who is troubled about Apple's upgrade policy for Logic Pro 7, but I do know that among them are studio owners, educational institutions and serious professional musicians. (You can check out out a little evidence in support of this statement at Macintouch.com)

As I said in an earlier note, anyone who has run a successful business - as i have - knows that customers are partners not adversaries or fools to be cleverly exploited. If you've become the proprietor of an important - but not yet dominant- product, you want to market it in a way that enlarges your customer base and does not potentially alienate a significant part of your inherited base. Disregarding your comment that "this aint MOTU," the fact is that Apple's competitors — and Apple itself — usually act in ways that reflect an understanding of this common sense principle. That's what makes this case fairly unique - and why I think it has the earmarks of a hasty decision made by a not particularly experienced or thoughtful person at Apple.

As far as civility is concerned, I suggest that, in the future, you engage in less name-calling and consider the possibility that those of us who think beyond the "Tough luck for you, I got mine" paradigm - which you seem to espouse - are not all, as you say, "boneheads" or dumb asses."

Peace