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MacRumors
Jul 21, 2010, 09:01 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2010/07/21/apple-targets-nokia-with-new-signal-attenuation-video/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2010/07/21/095823-nokia_signal_attenuation.jpg

Even though Nokia handsets weren't initially included on Apple's smartphone antenna performance (http://www.apple.com/antenna/) page, Apple CEO Steve Jobs did mention the company by name at last Friday's press conference (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/07/16/coverage-of-apples-iphone-4-press-conference/) as one of those warning of the possibility of signal attenuation on its phones much like that experienced by the iPhone 4. The mention sparked a response (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/07/19/antennagate-reactions-rim-nokia-taiwanese-animation/) from Nokia, as it did with several other companies whose products were addressed in Apple's presentation.

In order to back up its claims, Apple has now added a section to its antenna performance page highlighting how the Nokia N97 mini's signal drops from seven bars to two bars when gripped around the antenna at the bottom of the device. Nokia now joins Research in Motion, HTC, and Samsung, as well as Apple's own iPhone 3GS, on Apple's list of featured devices experiencing signal attenuation.

Article Link: Apple Targets Nokia With New Signal Attenuation Video (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2010/07/21/apple-targets-nokia-with-new-signal-attenuation-video/)



miamialley
Jul 21, 2010, 09:13 AM
Fine, but does it drop as many calls as my iP4?

kdarling
Jul 21, 2010, 09:14 AM
They really seem to believe that everyone is naive.

As Apple themselves have pointed out, the number of displayed bars on a phone is often not very meaningful.

What's important, is how much dBm change occurs and especially whether or not the connection drops.

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 21, 2010, 09:19 AM
Oh my god...

did Apple seriously just make pointing fingers apart of their campaign?

I thought they were above that!

I understand that it's unfair that the other companies do that and all, but Apple really doesn't need to stoop to their level, do they?

Stella
Jul 21, 2010, 09:21 AM
Why are Apple on a witch hunt?

Apple should concentrate on fixing their problem instead of finger pointing and deflecting the issue onto other companies. We already know the problem isn't as severe on other devices as the iPhone 4.

danielbrowning
Jul 21, 2010, 09:27 AM
At 0:42 he changes his grip to hold the phone to holding it with just his fingers and the signal rises again. It looks like his fingertips are touching the lower left of the phone. If you do this on the iPhone 4 and bridge the antenna gap, you don't regain signal.

Looks to me like they're trying to pass off the problem of bridging the antenna gap on the iPhone as the same as blocking the antenna with your whole hand on all phones. All phones have the latter problem... But that's not the issue here.

countrydweller
Jul 21, 2010, 09:28 AM
Why are Apple on a witch hunt?

Apple should concentrate on fixing their problem instead of finger pointing and deflecting the issue onto other companies. We already know the problem isn't as severe on other devices as the iPhone 4.

We do? You've tested them all?

BornAgainMac
Jul 21, 2010, 09:28 AM
Apple cracks me up. They say what they are thinking.

unce
Jul 21, 2010, 09:29 AM
Starting to get annoyed by Apple...who cares if other brands have a similar issue. The issue is with the iPhone4, which is their product, and should be taking responsibility for. This is such a childish thing to do. I really thought Apple would be better than this.

:(

WestonHarvey1
Jul 21, 2010, 09:30 AM
Oh my god...

did Apple seriously just make pointing fingers apart of their campaign?

I thought they were above that!

I understand that it's unfair that the other companies do that and all, but Apple really doesn't need to stoop to their level, do they?

They're not stooping. They are defending their product by demonstrating that the issue is not unique to their phone. I think most people instinctively knew this before the iPhone - telling someone that holding a phone a certain way might reduce the signal would have resulted in a shoulder shrug. Of course it will, it's a radio.

The N1 can't maintain a 3G signal when touched, period. Yet it didn't cause this kind of outcry because it wasn't from Apple.

Padraig
Jul 21, 2010, 09:31 AM
We do? You've tested them all?

Show me another phone that can drop calls from just the position of one finger. Nokia have their problems at the moment, but their reception has always been rock solid.

As for people being surprised at Apple's childishness, have you forgotten about the douchetastic "I'm a Mac campaign".

Rocketman
Jul 21, 2010, 09:34 AM
Moral of the story:

Never argue with someone with a $100,000,000 signal analysis lab or CAMPUS. Especially someone with incentive to publish scientific fact to demonstrate with science their own product is equal to, or superior to, their competitor's products in terms of a "PR talking point" targeted to disparage the FASTEST GROWING and LARGEST MINDSHARE and HIGHEST MARGIN product in the segment.

Also you probably shouldn't argue with someone who has so little to say, everything they do actually say is cascaded along all forms of media, instantly, for free, and with perceived credibility. While the "other companies" issue press releases and badly planned press conferences that end up lining bird cages and sitting in electronic in-boxes as uninteresting and insignificant.

Just a suggestion from the people at:

Rocketman

egret
Jul 21, 2010, 09:35 AM
Show me another phone that can drop calls from just the position of one finger. Nokia have their problems at the moment, but their reception has always been rock solid.

As for people being surprised at Apple's childishness, have you forgotten about the douchetastic "I'm a Mac campaign".

Apple is doing what they need to do to defend themselves against the smear job put out by the haters in the media and tech sites aligned against them.

You would fight back to if it were your....well you probably wouldnt.

countrydweller
Jul 21, 2010, 09:36 AM
Show me another phone that can drop calls from just the position of one finger. Nokia have their problems at the moment, but their reception has always been rock solid.

As for people being surprised at Apple's childishness, have you forgotten about the douchetastic "I'm a Mac campaign".

I can't, but my iPhone 4 hasn't dropped any of my calls, my 3G use to drop calls 2 or 3 calls a month.

thatisme
Jul 21, 2010, 09:36 AM
I find it great that they are doing this... in so far as it illustrates what their testing shows, that the iPhone 4 is not the only phone to have "antenna issues"

I don't see Apple as using this in an advertising campaign, just that they are backing up their claims and research with true visual evidence

If they were acting immaturely, they would have just left it at "well, everyone else has the problems like this too" and not offer up any data, evidence, etc to back up their claim.... It is very similar to a vocal majority on this site saying "Apple's antenna design is defective" and "All iPhone 4's are defective" as well as "Every iPhone 4 loses reception just by touching it"... no hard data showing that ALL phones are defective or that the antenna doesn't work...

WestonHarvey1
Jul 21, 2010, 09:37 AM
Show me another phone that can drop calls from just the position of one finger. Nokia have their problems at the moment, but their reception has always been rock solid.

That only happens in extremely weak signal areas. Other phones will do that too, it just isn't as obvious where to touch it.

Frosties
Jul 21, 2010, 09:41 AM
The Nokia phone have not the same bars/signal ratio as the iphone 4.
The Nokia phone have 2 bars left when the iphone 4 have 0 left
The Nokia phone can still receive and make calls at that signal level
The iphone can not receive or make calls at 0 bars
You don't grip the nokia phone like that by user default, default grip with iphone gives problem
============================================
Apple fix your stupid antenna design and get Ive of his high horse.

pondosinatra
Jul 21, 2010, 09:44 AM
"Apple - our products suck just as much as everyone else's" :rolleyes:

dieselpower44
Jul 21, 2010, 09:46 AM
I love the way that every time Apple show an image or video of one of their employees "holding" another phone to demonstrate this signal attenuation, they always appear to be literally crushing the phone in their hand. Whereas, with the i4, you just sit it comfortably in the pocket of your palm.

Apple has become the new Microsoft. They have lost that connection they had with their customers where they would strive to please. Now they just sit back like the rest and go "well you bought it, it's your problem."

dieselpower44
Jul 21, 2010, 09:49 AM
"Apple - our products suck just as much as everyone else's" :rolleyes:

LOL, couldn't agree more! This change in attitude is going to be the demise of Apple inc.

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jul 21, 2010, 09:50 AM
I kinda get a kick out of all the whining coming from people over Apple's decision to actually address this. I imagine much of that whining is coming from the same people who were posting, "LOL! Suck it Apple! Look at those commercials bashing your broken iPhone 4!"

The PR over this antenna thing got to a point where Apple had to respond. They were being targeted over this by their competitors in commercials and it seemed as if that trend was only going to pick up. It is silly and ignorant to expect them to take that lying down when they actually can demonstrate the same issue on competitor phones.

And by the way, about the dB thing: I really would love to see those numbers too, but frankly, to the general population it is the bars that matter, and for these other phones to lose such a majority of bars means they've either got bars every bit as misleading as Apple's were (or more), or they're suffering a similar loss in dB. It doesn't speak well to some companies' defense that Apple is the only one with this issue in either case.


LOL, couldn't agree more! This change in attitude is going to be the demise of Apple inc.
It just wouldn't be an Apple discussion without at least one, "Apple is d00m3d!!!11" comment.

dieselpower44
Jul 21, 2010, 09:59 AM
It just wouldn't be an Apple discussion without at least one, "Apple is d00m3d!!!11" comment.

Well, if they treat their customers this way then what do they expect?

Imagine an icecream stand, selling icecream cones "revolutionarily" cylindrical in shape and everyone's icecream fell out the bottom. Then, they remedy this by going "ok, we'll give you all a small piece of paper to glue to the bottom that will sort of fix the problem."

danielbrowning
Jul 21, 2010, 09:59 AM
*Yes, the signal issue is real. No, it has not caused any fuss while maintaining calls.

Since a number of people have complained that calls have been dropped and download speeds have drastically reduced, your comment that it has not caused any fuss would appear to be inaccurate.

Unless you mean it has not caused you any fuss? You might want to edit your sig to improve the accurary that up if this is the case...

space1nvaders
Jul 21, 2010, 10:00 AM
Apple is basically saying that nobody has been able to solve this problem. Everyone wants Apple to fix it, but what if it can't be fixed. All phones drop calls. We are now maybe just finding out why some people drop more calls than others. Maybe it's that phone and the way they hold it.

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jul 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
Well, if they treat their customers this way then what do they expect?

Imagine an icecream stand, selling icecream cones "revolutionarily" cylindrical in shape and everyone's icecream fell out the bottom. Then, they remedy this by going "ok, we'll give you all a small piece of paper to glue to the bottom that will sort of fix the problem."
The iPhone 4 works marvelously well. It is the most reliable iPhone I have ever owned, and the previous versions set a high standard to match. I am perfectly able to duplicate the issue (in my office, where the signal is poor) but as far as I can tell it has only resulted in one dropped call (while the 3GS dropped more due to holding a less reliable poor signal).

So if Apple truly had released a horrible product I could agree with you. Instead I'm simply left suspecting that you don't own the thing and are simply content to tell other people how the device works anyway.

Since a number of people have complained that calls have been dropped and download speeds have drastically reduced, your comment that it has not caused any fuss would appear to be inaccurate.

Unless you mean it has not caused you any fuss? You might want to edit your sig to improve the accurary that up if this is the case...
Nah, if I do anything with my signature it will be to remove it as it is rather silly to have it there in the first place. The whole issue is rather tiresome. I do not feel compelled to qualify my personal experience with the phone as mine, though, as by definition it is mine anyway. As for attenuation of the signal, I have indeed some extreme videos of major problems, and Apple has also said that there are a small subset of devices which seem to exhibit this problem strongly (or at least they've mentioned it a few times). There was a video of a person completely killing his connection by touching the side. That would be the mark of a defective device—one which should be exchanged. I haven't experienced anything above and beyond what I've experienced using a variety of phones ever since cell phones first hit the consumer market.

dieselpower44
Jul 21, 2010, 10:09 AM
The iPhone 4 works marvelously well. It is the most reliable iPhone I have ever owned, and the previous versions set a high standard to match. I am perfectly able to duplicate the issue (in my office, where the signal is poor) but as far as I can tell it has only resulted in one dropped call (while the 3GS dropped more due to holding a less reliable poor signal).

So if Apple truly had released a horrible product I could agree with you. Instead I'm simply left suspecting that you don't own the thing and are simply content to tell other people how the device works anyway.

Completely incorrect, I have always been an Apple customer. I just recently bought an i7 iMac and own a Macbook pro, an iPod touch and an iPhone 3G. I waited in line for the iPhone 4, and I absolutely love the thing to bits. It's the fastest, most awesome phone I've ever owned. But what annoys me is that you have to agree that this is the most serious problem relating to signal attenuation ever been seen. I mean yes, it has been blown out of proportion by the media but when you get down and actually test it out in different signal strength areas, you definitely notice it pretty severely.

But what annoys me the most, is Apple's "couldn't give a s***, let's point out other people's similar mistakes." Apple has never been like this before. Jobs may have saved the company but he's also going to ruin it with this attitude. Wozniak would have recalled the phones.

Stella
Jul 21, 2010, 10:09 AM
Apple is doing what they need to do to defend themselves against the smear job put out by the haters in the media and tech sites aligned against them.


LOL. Grow up. You sound paranoid: Everyone is out to get Apple.

The Antenna issue is real. It was bought about because enough people were having issues not due to some kind of grand conspiracy.

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 10:17 AM
Are we still debating this? No one is forcing you to keep/buy an iPhone. I've had one dropped call since I got it almost a month ago. It was while driving. It's hard to argue with #'s of complaints and returns. It's not difficult. You either like the phone or you don't. You get one or you don't. Name the last non-iPhone cell phone you've had that you've complained about dropped calls and they gave you something to help reduce the problem. I bet most people complaining would use a case anyways.

Lancetx
Jul 21, 2010, 10:19 AM
Apple is doing what they need to do to defend themselves against the smear job put out by the haters in the media and tech sites aligned against them.

Exactly. Nokia should have kept their mouths shut instead of calling out Apple last week. Now Apple is simply responding back to them in kind. Nokia said they didn't have the issue with any of their phones, but obviously that is not true.

As for those here that still complaining about the iPhone 4, you can always return your iPhone for a full refund as Apple has stated on several occasions...

iJon
Jul 21, 2010, 10:19 AM
I love the way that every time Apple show an image or video of one of their employees "holding" another phone to demonstrate this signal attenuation, they always appear to be literally crushing the phone in their hand. Whereas, with the i4, you just sit it comfortably in the pocket of your palm.

Apple has become the new Microsoft. They have lost that connection they had with their customers where they would strive to please. Now they just sit back like the rest and go "well you bought it, it's your problem."

"If you don't want an iPhone 4 don't buy it. If you bought one and you don't like it, bring it back."

Stella
Jul 21, 2010, 10:21 AM
Are we still debating this?

Maybe because its a "Discussion form"?

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jul 21, 2010, 10:21 AM
Completely incorrect, I have always been an Apple customer. I just recently bought an i7 iMac and own a Macbook pro, an iPod touch and an iPhone 3G. I waited in line for the iPhone 4, and I absolutely love the thing to bits. It's the fastest, most awesome phone I've ever owned. But what annoys me is that you have to agree that this is the most serious problem relating to signal attenuation ever been seen. I mean yes, it has been blown out of proportion by the media but when you get down and actually test it out in different signal strength areas, you definitely notice it pretty severely.

But what annoys me the most, is Apple's "couldn't give a s***, let's point out other people's similar mistakes." Apple has never been like this before. Jobs may have saved the company but he's also going to ruin it with this attitude. Wozniak would have recalled the phones.
I'm quite familiar with the circumstance. Placing the antenna on the outside of the unit has changed the way attenuation of the phone's signal manifests. Apple probably failed to predict the way in which this was received. I agree completely with Gruber on this one, though: it is a two steps forward, one step back sort of thing. I have lost a call that I probably wouldn't have lost due to this issue, but at the same time, I have kept far more calls than I would have, in those poor signal areas, had I been using my 3GS. It is a tradeoff (a word Jobs was probably concerned to use) but one I feel is acceptable. That said, discussion of the issue is fine—it really is there—but discussion blowing it clear out of proportion is just mind numbing.

Now, on to your second line, you clearly don't understand PR and how a company Apple's size has to react with the media. They've certainly misstepped at times, but as they have chosen not to do a recall (reasonable, I feel, and it seems their customers are voting with their dollars that they agree) they have to back their decision to support the phone as is. Competitors have gone out of their way to target this issue and Apple has to respond. And it is fair, too. If Nokia is going to come out and say they don't have issues like this they should be prepared to have their products tested and the same goes for other companies. Apple's on the defense here and it has nothing to do with them not giving a ****.

"Jobs is going to ruin the company with this attitude," is hyperbole.

The Woz, as much as I love the guy, absolutely would not be capable of running a company like Apple (or one even remotely near as successful)—or how to resolve a PR issue. He's an engineer through and through. Not a businessman or any sort of social wizard.

LOL. Grow up. You sound paranoid: Everyone is out to get Apple.
Actually, the media does target Apple disproportionately, but it is not because they are haters. Apple is a large, successful company which people have passionate opinions about and that generates interest, page views, ratings, advertising revenue. So actually, that was right in one sense, wrong in another.

And there's something entertaining about the line, "LOL. Grow up."

MacFan1957
Jul 21, 2010, 10:23 AM
I hate to add to this whole tiresome "debate" but it does amuse me how a video of an iPhone 4 losing signal is proof *positive* of a design flaw whereas a similar video of a different smartphone is no proof at all!

I have an iPhone 4, its the best phone I have ever had and by a mile! I'm happy with it and frankly I'm pretty much sick and tired of folks telling me I'm mad or stupid for saying so!

Keith

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 21, 2010, 10:23 AM
As for people being surprised at Apple's childishness, have you forgotten about the douchetastic "I'm a Mac campaign".

That campaign was saying "Look what we can do that you can't."

That is proper advertising and the way it should be done.

This campaign says "Look, you're just as bad as we are."

I'm a Mac raised the bar, this thing just pulls the bar down.

iguanarama
Jul 21, 2010, 10:24 AM
I love that they do the video of the Nokia with the battery showing almost empty. :)

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jul 21, 2010, 10:27 AM
I'm a Mac raised the bar, this thing just pulls the bar down.
No, it raises the bar, because the bar was about as far down as it can get due to media attention and representation. Apple's decision, speaking from an advertising perspective, to demonstrate to people the attenuation issues present in all phones, seeks to strike out the negative that our mothers have been hearing about while the rest of the phone continues to shine for itself. Besides, what would the alternative be? Pretending the attenuation doesn't exist? What would be a representation of holding to the highest standard? Saying they're the best in this regard? That would be a lie. And they couldn't ignore the issue.

dwarnecke11
Jul 21, 2010, 10:27 AM
The antenna issue is real. It is more pronounced on the iPhone 4 than other smartphones because it is directly exposed to touch.

That said, Apple is defending the notion that this problem does in fact affect nearly all phones to some degree. They show evidence and catalog it very clearly. What's wrong with that?

What upsets me more is the backlash from those companies denying the issue altogether - denying an issue that these videos and others clearly show. Shouldn't this denial be more worrisome?

mtwilford
Jul 21, 2010, 10:30 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2010/07/21/apple-targets-nokia-with-new-signal-attenuation-video/)



Apple you are pathetic :confused:

MacFan1957
Jul 21, 2010, 10:35 AM
What upsets me more is the backlash from those companies denying the issue altogether - denying an issue that these videos and others clearly show. Shouldn't this denial be more worrisome?

Well said! A lot of the "haters" claim that Apple is in denial here but they are the only phone maker to admit to this problem!

The really funny part is that most of these phones tell you in black and white and in their manuals not to touch the phone in certain places and yet they still claim that is not the case! I don't know, maybe they don't read their own manuals? ;-)

juanster
Jul 21, 2010, 10:47 AM
Apple should spend the money spent on pointing fingers at others and no a bumper is not a fix. It only happens to 1% of the users? Greeeeat. That's 1% more than it should. So get to work and stop trying to look at others failures that are similar to yours.
What's apple trying to say? That they are failing At fixing something just better?

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 10:49 AM
I hate to add to this whole tiresome "debate" but it does amuse me how a video of an iPhone 4 losing signal is proof *positive* of a design flaw whereas a similar video of a different smartphone is no proof at all!

I have an iPhone 4, its the best phone I have ever had and by a mile! I'm happy with it and frankly I'm pretty much sick and tired of folks telling me I'm mad or stupid for saying so!

Keith

Yes there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to online video credibility.

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 10:51 AM
Apple should spend the money spent on pointing fingers at others and no a bumper is not a fix. It only happens to 1% of the users? Greeeeat. That's 1% more than it should. So get to work and stop trying to look at others failures that are similar to yours.
What's apple trying to say? That they are failing At fixing something just better?

Nope, they're saying that nearly every phone has the same problem because nobody has been able to figure out a way around physics, so even though barely anybody is calling in to complain or return a phone we are going to give you something for free and other companies won't even though their manuals tell you the same thing we are telling you.

dmelgar
Jul 21, 2010, 10:52 AM
Really classy apple. Try to cover up your mistake by confusing users and trying to insult competitors you didn't think you even had to worry about.

Apple continues to disappoint in surprising ways. What happened to the focus on building great products?

-aggie-
Jul 21, 2010, 10:56 AM
Well, if they treat their customers this way then what do they expect?

Imagine an icecream stand, selling icecream cones "revolutionarily" cylindrical in shape and everyone's icecream fell out the bottom. Then, they remedy this by going "ok, we'll give you all a small piece of paper to glue to the bottom that will sort of fix the problem."

I know. Damn you, Apple, for giving me a better phone than my 3G!! Damn you!!!

Rocketman
Jul 21, 2010, 11:02 AM
What I find interesting is Apple gave a press conference which involved a largely scientific analysis and presentation, wherein they showed:

- The antenna issue impacts 0.55% of users to the degree they expressed concerns.

- The call loss issue is 1/100 or less, worse for the new 4 model than the prior 3GS model.

- The attenuation issue is user impacted and minor behavioral issues can abate it almost entirely.

- Case use was far higher on 3GS vs 4 which accounts for nearly 100% of the experienced issues, thus Apple offered free cases to 4 users who did not buy a case due to supply chain and availability issues.

- The new antenna system is more sensitive, effective and has better actual reception than either the prior model or most other competitors.

- The issue is largely in areas of poor reception to begin with. One factor in this is USA cell cites are less densely distributed than EU sites and the limits of GSM are more revealed here. We have more geographic area to cover so carriers have opted to solve the issue with near minimum density cell site distribution.

All of these factual, supported, known things are widely disregarded in headline style media reports that regurgitate the now disproven claim that Apple iPhone 4 has "an antenna problem", "reception issues", or "a dropped call problem". While there are limited and anecdotal examples of it, largely reproducable from known conditions, there is no there there on an overall and general basis.

Rocketman

Proposed next gen features in all iOS devices:
Mobile hotsopt (tethering)
VoIP
Bluetooth keyboard/track ball/trackpad compatible
Dock to full USB access.

Torrijos
Jul 21, 2010, 11:05 AM
The antenna issue is real. It is more pronounced on the iPhone 4 than other smartphones because it is directly exposed to touch.

That said, Apple is defending the notion that this problem does in fact affect nearly all phones to some degree. They show evidence and catalog it very clearly. What's wrong with that?

What upsets me more is the backlash from those companies denying the issue altogether - denying an issue that these videos and others clearly show. Shouldn't this denial be more worrisome?

Exactly, plus, like Anandtech showed (the only technical site that tried to gather technical information on the problem), the iPhone do suffer of a higher attenuation of signal when touched, but at the same seems to have better reception at lower signal levels this is why the amount of drop calls is less than 1% over the level of the 3GS.

So if your in an average-low signal area, and touch the "mean" spot tightly you will still be able to maintain communications, the fact that some people seem to believe that you could be in a full signal area and drop a call simply because you touched your phone is at best lack of knowledge, at worst (like in a lot if not the majority of tech websites) cash trolling (Leprechaun-ing?!).

A nice follow up from Anandtech (or any other site) would be to calculate/show real-life implications, like the distance from the antenna that the problems cost you.

MacFan1957
Jul 21, 2010, 11:07 AM
Really classy apple. Try to cover up your mistake by confusing users and trying to insult competitors you didn't think you even had to worry about.

Apple continues to disappoint in surprising ways. What happened to the focus on building great products?

If users are confused that is their own fault not Apples. A part of that confusion is that this is some kind of design "mistake" on Apples part, its not, it was a design choice! It was a trade off of battery life, form factor and signal strength. I can only say that for me the phone is as perfect as it could be given obvious limitations, battery life isn't limitless and all cell phone suffer with signal issues of some kind.

I trust Apple, they are smarter than your average blogger and for sure smarter than your average forum poster! More power to them I say! :-)

WestonHarvey1
Jul 21, 2010, 11:13 AM
- The call loss issue is 1/100 or less, worse for the new 4 model than the prior 3GS model.


This is key. If the iPhone 4 isn't dropping calls any more often than the 3GS, then there is no real issue at all. Either almost no one is dropping additional calls because of the antenna, or if the issue is more widespread, it is made up for by antenna performance improvements elsewhere. The net result? Same performance as 3GS which no one complained about.

You can either accept that or accuse AT&T and Apple of faking that 1/100 number, in which case your argument is standing in the tinfoil hat section.

Mr. Zorg
Jul 21, 2010, 11:22 AM
vocal majority
I think, perhaps, you meant to say "vocal MINORITY"?

MacFan1957
Jul 21, 2010, 11:22 AM
LOL. Grow up. You sound paranoid: Everyone is out to get Apple.

The Antenna issue is real. It was bought about because enough people were having issues not due to some kind of grand conspiracy.

What, the only person talking about a "conspiracy" here is you!

The number of people having this issues was and is tiny BUT they were making a LOT of noise about it. Apple had to *defend* themselves and they did a good job! It didn't shut up the "haters" because what they want is for Apple to say "Yep the bloggers and forum posters where right and we were wrong!"

Apple addressed the issue with a smart mix of PR and facts!

sonictonic
Jul 21, 2010, 11:28 AM
Count me into the group who is sick and tired of hearing about this crap.

I too love my iPhone 4, it being the best phone I have ever owned, and without a doubt having less dropped calls than my 3GS had. I had a handful of drops on the 3GS fairly often and on the 4 I've only had two since launch day. I'm also in a long distance relationship and we stay on the phone all night every night. I'm not kidding. :o

I can demo this "issue" but realistically it is not a problem for me. This phone is the best and I'm only slightly bummed that some people may miss out on a fantastic device due to this media hoopla.

Arkanok
Jul 21, 2010, 11:29 AM
Starting to get annoyed by Apple...who cares if other brands have a similar issue. The issue is with the iPhone4, which is their product, and should be taking responsibility for. This is such a childish thing to do. I really thought Apple would be better than this.

:(

Annoyed by Apple? I'm sure Apple is annoyed by all the people who are saying that Apple doesn't know how to make phones, especially when the problem they're getting flak from is also reproduced on other phones just as easilly, but no other companies are getting **** on by the public and media for also having this issue? Why is it ONLY Apple that gets dumped on?

ELScorcho9
Jul 21, 2010, 11:29 AM
What I find interesting is Apple gave a press conference which involved a largely scientific analysis and presentation, wherein they showed:

- The antenna issue impacts 0.55% of users to the degree they expressed concerns.

- The call loss issue is 1/100 or less, worse for the new 4 model than the prior 3GS model.

- The attenuation issue is user impacted and minor behavioral issues can abate it almost entirely.

- Case use was far higher on 3GS vs 4 which accounts for nearly 100% of the experienced issues, thus Apple offered free cases to 4 users who did not buy a case due to supply chain and availability issues.

- The new antenna system is more sensitive, effective and has better actual reception than either the prior model or most other competitors.

- The issue is largely in areas of poor reception to begin with. One factor in this is USA cell cites are less densely distributed than EU sites and the limits of GSM are more revealed here. We have more geographic area to cover so carriers have opted to solve the issue with near minimum density cell site distribution.

All of these factual, supported, known things are widely disregarded in headline style media reports that regurgitate the now disproven claim that Apple iPhone 4 has "an antenna problem", "reception issues", or "a dropped call problem". While there are limited and anecdotal examples of it, largely reproducable from known conditions, there is no there there on an overall and general basis.

Rocketman




What he said.

Call me crazy, but my iPhone 4 works great. The minority consisting of me and the other 98.6% of iPhone 4 users probably just hasn't seen the problem yet, right?

dicklacara
Jul 21, 2010, 11:38 AM
.

Here's a post at another site that saya it best:

bbrewer 1 hour ago
2 people liked this.
Antenna-gate was a non-issue to start with. If anything it may end up helping Apple meet demand at some point. Right now they are not able to make them fast enough anyway.

The external antenna is great. You won't drop a call no matter how you hold it if you have a decent signal. If you are in a weak signal area, you might not even have a signal on another phone. Of the iPhone 4, if you have one bar, avoid touching the strip near the bottom of the left side. If you can tie your own shoes, you can probably manage this. Or get a (free) case. Gee, what a crisis.

http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100721/apple-earnings-no-better-antennagate-deodorant-than-success/#comments

.

LucasRoebuck
Jul 21, 2010, 11:46 AM
What he said.

Call me crazy, but my iPhone 4 works great. The minority consisting of me and the other 98.6% of iPhone 4 users probably just hasn't seen the problem yet, right?

I agree.

However, I disagree with your signature quote... at least you have taken it out of context.

"...those who live by mystery & charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy, the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man, endeavored to crush your well earnt, & well deserved fame." - Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, Washington, 21 March 1801

If you are going to quote Jefferson, get it right.

Source: http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Christianity_is_the_most_perverted_system_that_ever_shone_on_man

UTclassof89
Jul 21, 2010, 11:49 AM
This is key. If the iPhone 4 isn't dropping calls any more often than the 3GS, then there is no real issue at all.....

But Apple admitted that it DOES drop more calls than 3GS.

They spun it as "less than 1 per 100", but assuming all 3,000,000 iPhone 4 users make about 5 calls per day, that's over ONE MILLION dropped calls per week MORE than iPhone 3GS.

It's a problem.
It's been reproduced by CNET, Consumer Reports, NYT, and many others.

The debate here is not whether there's a problem, but why Apple is obfuscating, rather than fixing it, pretending that bridging the gap of their electrically exposed antenna is equivalent to attenuating an antenna by completely covering it with one's meaty hand.
(seems like moving this gap to the bottom edge of the phone where it's far less likely to be touched, would be an easy fix).

MathiasMag
Jul 21, 2010, 11:56 AM
The slow pace of messages here shows that this has gone from being important to the masses and the trolls to now be a small problem. Previous threads (those from before the videos and pressconference) added three pages in the time it took to read one, there was just no way to keep up with them. This has still not gotten much over 50.

It is interesting, but few considers the new iPhone to be broken anymore. No matter what you think of how Jobs handled it, he completely defused a situation that was becoming very hostile. I'm sure this will be taught and dissected at universities for years just as Intels poor handling of PR with the "faulty" processors is taught as the difference between dealing with companies and customers. This was a lesson for all and many key bloggers have already written pieces of how he changed the usual dynamics of apologizing for any perceived issue.

ctrobins
Jul 21, 2010, 11:58 AM
Nokia???? What's a 'Nokia'?

keyofnight
Jul 21, 2010, 11:59 AM
I swear guys: I'm pretty sure most of the people dropping calls are only dropping calls because of the proximity sensor issues.

Next time you drop a call, check to see if it says "Call Failure" on the screen. If it doesn't, it's probably the sensor. (I'm talking to a wall, I'm sure—but if one person discovers the real problem, I'll be happy…

If it does say call failure, take it to Apple and they'll give you a new one. Simple. (:

paradox00
Jul 21, 2010, 12:00 PM
Why are Apple on a witch hunt?

Apple should concentrate on fixing their problem instead of finger pointing and deflecting the issue onto other companies. We already know the problem isn't as severe on other devices as the iPhone 4.

The iPhone's antenna issue has been highlighted by other companies in newspaper, online and TV advertisements. Apple is just returning the favor.

I do think the external antenna makes things worse, but the companies Apple is targeting deserve this getting shoved right back in their faces.

PS: Apple has been working on fixing the issue. For starters, you get a free case, or if you're not satisfied you can return the phone for a full refund. Behind the scenes they are definitely trying to fix or minimize the problem as well. I don't know what more you can ask for, really.

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 12:04 PM
But Apple admitted that it DOES drop more calls than 3GS.

They spun it as "less than 1 per 100", but assuming all 3,000,000 iPhone 4 users make about 5 calls per day, that's over ONE MILLION dropped calls per week MORE than iPhone 3GS.

It's a problem.
It's been reproduced by CNET, Consumer Reports, NYT, and many others.

The debate here is not whether there's a problem, but why Apple is obfuscating, rather than fixing it, pretending that bridging the gap of their electrically exposed antenna is equivalent to attenuating an antenna by completely covering it with one's meaty hand.
(seems like moving this gap to the bottom edge of the phone where it's far less likely to be touched, would be an easy fix).

Umm, that's still less than 1%. That's pretty good. That would be out of 100 million calls. 99 million calls were fine.

Kiwi Jones
Jul 21, 2010, 12:06 PM
Well, if they treat their customers this way then what do they expect?

Imagine an icecream stand, selling icecream cones "revolutionarily" cylindrical in shape and everyone's icecream fell out the bottom. Then, they remedy this by going "ok, we'll give you all a small piece of paper to glue to the bottom that will sort of fix the problem."

I'm getting so tired of hearing all this whining and complaining. First off, don't complain about the iPhone 4 unless YOU ACTUALLY HAVE AN iPHONE 4! Secondly, don't complain cuz you can make your bars disappear on your iPhone 4 unless you've EXPERIENCED PROBLEMS DURING NORMAL USE. Yes i can make my phone drop bars. Yes Apple screwed up some with the design or at least by giving everyone an "X" marks the spot. And in regards to your icecream cone metaphor, the iP4 is not even close to actually being dysfunctional because of this antenna issue. It would be more like Apple selling revolutionary icecream cones that LEAKED a bit out of the bottom when you held it a certain way. And to remedy it, Apple gave out PAPER ICECREAM CONE SLEEVES (the kind you get from icecream places already.... but SOME people prefer to take it out of the sleeve while others are fine with it). And you people still manage to complain. Either put a case/bumper on it if you actually do experience problems, or return the phone and ****.

I hereby solemnly swear to avoid opening the comments section on any future iPhone 4 Antenna Issue related articles.

UTclassof89
Jul 21, 2010, 12:07 PM
Umm, that's still less than 1%. That's pretty good. That would be out of 100 million calls. 99 million calls were fine.

You seem to have missed the "... MORE than iPhone 3gs" part.

A better antenna should drop FEWER calls (unless there's a flaw)

Kiwi Jones
Jul 21, 2010, 12:07 PM
Count me into the group who is sick and tired of hearing about this crap.

I too love my iPhone 4, it being the best phone I have ever owned, and without a doubt having less dropped calls than my 3GS had. I had a handful of drops on the 3GS fairly often and on the 4 I've only had two since launch day. I'm also in a long distance relationship and we stay on the phone all night every night. I'm not kidding. :o

I can demo this "issue" but realistically it is not a problem for me. This phone is the best and I'm only slightly bummed that some people may miss out on a fantastic device due to this media hoopla.

Amen

wrlsmarc
Jul 21, 2010, 12:09 PM
The attention paid to this by the press is way overblown and, in my opinion, borders on irresponsible reporting to sell clicks and pages. I have an iPhone 4 and 3GS. Have done side by side comparisons of signal quality and the ability to maintain calls in low signal areas. The iPhone 4 beats my 3GS every call.

Yes I can touch the lower left hand side of the phone and cause signal loss. However, it is also an area that is so small, I can easily avoid. I also use a bumper occasionally. With the bumper, I can't make the signal do much. I do prefer to have a naked iPhone and have no concerns carrying and using it that way.

I for one am very happy with the iPhone 4. It is fast, really fast. It does not drop calls where my 3GS did. The battery life is far superior to any smartphone I have owned. I download a variety of applications without fear. I play my music or Pandora when I work out. I use Facetime.....

Apple has a right to defend themselves. If you look at their choice of antenna design, they placed the antenna as far away from the head as possible. That makes me happy. I am also pleased with SAR values relative to other smartphones.

I guess this makes me a fanboy. But I join the majority that say this is a great phone.

-aggie-
Jul 21, 2010, 12:10 PM
The slow pace of messages here shows that this has gone from being important to the masses and the trolls to now be a small problem. Previous threads (those from before the videos and pressconference) added three pages in the time it took to read one, there was just no way to keep up with them. This has still not gotten much over 50.

It is interesting, but few considers the new iPhone to be broken anymore. No matter what you think of how Jobs handled it, he completely defused a situation that was becoming very hostile. I'm sure this will be taught and dissected at universities for years just as Intels poor handling of PR with the "faulty" processors is taught as the difference between dealing with companies and customers. This was a lesson for all and many key bloggers have already written pieces of how he changed the usual dynamics of apologizing for any perceived issue.

Exactly. When the usual suspects don't post, the threads that brought up the reception issue totally die.

hexor
Jul 21, 2010, 12:10 PM
They really seem to believe that everyone is naive.

As Apple themselves have pointed out, the number of displayed bars on a phone is often not very meaningful.

What's important, is how much dBm change occurs and especially whether or not the connection drops.

Ok but the problem is that 99% of the people are naive and only pay attention to the bars they see on the screen.

Kiwi Jones
Jul 21, 2010, 12:12 PM
Umm, that's still less than 1%. That's pretty good. That would be out of 100 million calls. 99 million calls were fine.

Not to mention the thousands and thousands of people purposely replicating the issue to show others how it can drop a call. I wonder how many dropped calls were during normal use. I know i've replicated it a few times but have dropped 1 call since launch. And that was in an area with sh***y reception.

Frosties
Jul 21, 2010, 12:22 PM
don't complain about the iPhone 4 unless YOU ACTUALLY HAVE AN iPHONE 4! Secondly, don't complain cuz you can make your bars disappear on your iPhone 4 unless you've EXPERIENCED PROBLEMS DURING NORMAL USE. Yes i can make my phone drop bars. Yes Apple screwed up some with the design or at least by giving everyone an "X" marks the spot.

It's the typical internet forum user review problem. Any product be it a TV, stereo, vacuum cleaner or now a phone get more positive feedback than it is entitled to because the customer is satisfied and want the product to be perfect. That is why a user review often is "it's the best "named product category" I have ever had!

Reviews are for prospective customers, that is why they exists! Naturally a potential customer wishes a product that he is interested in to be fixed if it has problems and faults as you yourself in the post above claims. Why sweep it under the rug?

WestonHarvey1
Jul 21, 2010, 12:40 PM
But Apple admitted that it DOES drop more calls than 3GS.

They spun it as "less than 1 per 100", but assuming all 3,000,000 iPhone 4 users make about 5 calls per day, that's over ONE MILLION dropped calls per week MORE than iPhone 3GS.[/I]

That total number is meaningless to the end user. The Average user will make 100 calls on a 4 and 100 on a 3GS and not see a difference.

It's also a number that could change from week to week depending on all sorts of nebulous factors. This week the stats might favor the 4 by 1 call for all you know.

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 12:41 PM
You seem to have missed the "... MORE than iPhone 3gs" part.

A better antenna should drop FEWER calls (unless there's a flaw)

Yeah but none of us know what that number is. It could be a full 1/100 for all we know. 2-5% is still pretty good. There will NEVER be a phone that never drops a call, ever. We also don't know other manufacturers ratio. There's probably a reason why they don't give that information.

calzon65
Jul 21, 2010, 12:46 PM
Even if Rim, Palm, etc. exhibit the same antenna problems as the iPhone 4, Apple is acting like a cry baby by trying to shift the discussion to include their competitors. “Teacher, the other kids are being bad too, don’t punish me alone”.

Rocketman
Jul 21, 2010, 12:49 PM
I want someone to make a utility that replaces the improved bar display and algorithm with a randomized display and algorithm. That way you stop looking for bars to make your life better and just make the damn call and see if it goes through or not. Pass/fail.

Ignorance is bliss. Sometimes.

Maybe Apple could make that an Easter Egg. Those were the days, when Easter Eggs were common. Fun times.

Rocketman

WestonHarvey1
Jul 21, 2010, 12:51 PM
You seem to have missed the "... MORE than iPhone 3gs" part.

A better antenna should drop FEWER calls (unless there's a flaw)

You don't get the real picture about performance from that average. What are the call drop numbers when people don't "hold it wrong"? Let's say they were 50 fewer on the 4. That would indicate a massively improved overall antenna design. So you'd have an antenna that holds on to calls about exactly as well on average, with the *ability to greatly exceed previous performance depending on use*. That can't be ignored.

And not all dropped calls are signal related. Some are capacity related and we have no idea how AT&T runs those numbers.

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 12:58 PM
Even if Rim, Palm, etc. exhibit the same antenna problems as the iPhone 4, Apple is acting like a cry baby by trying to shift the discussion to include their competitors. “Teacher, the other kids are being bad too, don’t punish me alone”.

So if another car company was hiding the same problem Toyota had, and Toyota pointed it out, that would be wrong? Why are the other companies denying it?

WestonHarvey1
Jul 21, 2010, 01:07 PM
So if another car company was hiding the same problem Toyota had, and Toyota pointed it out, that would be wrong? Why are the other companies denying it?

The funny part is none of the other companies are even denying it. Their response has been to complain about Apple bringing it up. The laws of physics should apply only to Apple.

dicklacara
Jul 21, 2010, 01:25 PM
But Apple admitted that it DOES drop more calls than 3GS.

They spun it as "less than 1 per 100", but assuming all 3,000,000 iPhone 4 users make about 5 calls per day, that's over ONE MILLION dropped calls per week MORE than iPhone 3GS.

It's a problem.
It's been reproduced by CNET, Consumer Reports, NYT, and many others.

The debate here is not whether there's a problem, but why Apple is obfuscating, rather than fixing it, pretending that bridging the gap of their electrically exposed antenna is equivalent to attenuating an antenna by completely covering it with one's meaty hand.
(seems like moving this gap to the bottom edge of the phone where it's far less likely to be touched, would be an easy fix).

Couple of things:

1) What isn't factored into your calculations is that because of its more-sensitive antenna, the iP4 was able to make calls, in marginal signal areas, where the 3GS showed no signal and was not able to attempt or receive a call... dropping any of these "never-before-possible" calls would reflect poorly on the iP4, and be included in the "< 1 call per hundred" more dropped calls by the iP4.

2) <1 per 100 more dropped calls by the iP4 than the 3GS. "< 1" can mean anything from, say, .0000000001 to .9999999999. Without knowing the real delta fraction it is difficult to base calculations on it.

3) The 3GS came into being with a plethora of available cases-- the iP4 with 1 case, that was in so short supply as to be non-available. Apple stated that 80% of the 3GSs left their store with a case. So, many 3Gs had 2 layers of antenna shielding, the 3GS plastic housing and an external case. The bulk of iP4s had neither-- 0 levels of antenna shielding.


All of this has been widely reported (or obvious) to those who care to objectively examine the facts. So it is a bit disingenuous to make your assertions, without qualification.

.

UTclassof89
Jul 21, 2010, 01:39 PM
1) What isn't factored into your calculations is that because of its more-sensitive antenna, the iP4 was able to make calls, in marginal signal areas, where the 3GS showed no signal and was not able to attempt or receive a call... dropping any of these "never-before-possible" calls would reflect poorly on the iP4, and be included in the "< 1 call per hundred" more dropped calls by the iP4.

True, but a dropped call is a dropped call.

2) <1 per 100 more dropped calls by the iP4 than the 3GS. "< 1" can mean anything from, say, .0000000001 to .9999999999. Without knowing the real delta fraction it is difficult to base calculations on it.

We both know that's a crock. If "<1" was anything less than 0.8, Apple would have said "barely over one half of one percent". But they didn't. That means it's more like .97 or .98 (bet me an iPhone!)

3) The 3GS came into being with a plethora of available cases-- the iP4 with 1 case, that was in so short supply as to be non-available. Apple stated that 80% of the 3GSs left their store with a case. So, many 3Gs had 2 layers of antenna shielding, the 3GS plastic housing and an external case. The bulk of iP4s had neither-- 0 levels of antenna shielding.

Wow. Mr. Jobs, I didn't realize it was you.
The point isn't whether a case mitigates the issue--I have no doubt that it does. But Apple is spinning facts and pretending the issue is the typical attenuation issue other phones has. It isn't (otherwise the iphone 4's that left the store without a case would be dropping fewer calls, not more)

2 Replies
Jul 21, 2010, 01:44 PM
Oh my god...

did Apple seriously just make pointing fingers apart of their campaign?

I thought they were above that!

I understand that it's unfair that the other companies do that and all, but Apple really doesn't need to stoop to their level, do they?


Above that? HA!
Looks like someone forgot about the Mac vs PC ads. ;)

It would be nice if Apple actually ACTED like an adult and not like it's own fanboi. :-\

-aggie-
Jul 21, 2010, 01:55 PM
Maybe Apple could make that an Easter Egg. Those were the days, when Easter Eggs were common. Fun times.

Rocketman

And bunnies. Easter eggs and bunnies...sigh.

It's funny how people give Apple a hard time for spinning this information, when we all know the media was doing their own spin. If the media truly wanted the truth, they'd have conducted some research and have been able to really give us a good percent on how many people experience problems when using the iPhone 4 (I know, every phone has the "defect"...blah, blah, blah, blah). However, the real percent wouldn't make a good story. So, how can you blame Apple for at least trying to defend itself?

Dammit Cubs
Jul 21, 2010, 02:12 PM
Apple is proving a point. A point that most consumers, many people on these macrumors boards and even intelligent users don't understand.

ALL phones are subject to detuning. The amount of detuning is up to the phone but this is natural. When someone told me, your signal drops when hold the iphone in a wierd way....no s***.

Anyone with half a brain should already know the outcome. Also, holding your phone a certain way doesn't create a blackhole. It creates a constant -24dbm drop. I'll say that again. CONSTANT! Not accelerating.

just2see
Jul 21, 2010, 02:24 PM
With all this being said by haters and non-haters, haters go to apple store or att and buy the i4 and see for yourselves, you have 30 days to return it for full refund. Take the time and really experience the phone, take to account in the mid 80's att had to deregulate it's control of market, so the public has a choice other than att as a service. So, there's your weak signal areas, some people has no choice but to have what's available to them and be stuck with a non-iphone product line and should not be complaining of lack of experience. Don't jump on the band wagon and base you conclusion from others and start hating the iphone since you haven't experience iphone 2g in the past.
You have nothing to lose but time, 30 days to see if it is compatible to you and your lifestyle. See if your willing to experience the antenna issue if any in your area and live with your findings. Or, is the antenna issue that bad that it over shadows your willingness to try. Just think, why people love this phone, there is something about it besides people using the glass and a razor on it. It's the advanced technology of it and the innovation that gets me, some people blow the $200 on meaning less things. It's an expensive toy, but would not lose a chance to experience one with no strings attached.


Just2see

aliensporebomb
Jul 21, 2010, 02:27 PM
I swear guys: I'm pretty sure most of the people dropping calls are only dropping calls because of the proximity sensor issues.

Next time you drop a call, check to see if it says "Call Failure" on the screen. If it doesn't, it's probably the sensor. (I'm talking to a wall, I'm sure—but if one person discovers the real problem, I'll be happy…

If it does say call failure, take it to Apple and they'll give you a new one. Simple. (:

More accurately, at least in one case of my own Iphone 4 I ran into a case where my ear or face bumped the mute button (because the sensor thought my face wasn't hear it or the sensor was blocked) which caused the person on the other end to go "hello? hello?" which caused me to go "huh?" and then the person on the other end hung up before I could unmute.

That happened once.

I also saw, exactly once what appeared to be the sensor thinking my face was up to the phone when it was not - specifically: dialed a call, phone held at arms' length: screen goes blank instead of staying on, I get voicemail and want to hang up but I have to fiddle with it for the screen to come back on.

Part of these issues are happening because I'm using a case from my old iPhone that doesn't really fit the phone and I believe it's obscuring the sensor.

calzon65
Jul 21, 2010, 02:38 PM
So if another car company was hiding the same problem Toyota had, and Toyota pointed it out, that would be wrong? Why are the other companies denying it?

Apple should simply focus on resolving their own issues. It's not their job to be the "tattle tell" police pointing out problems or potential problems with their competitors. The press and/or markets will uncover issues with Apple competitors.

ThePoach
Jul 21, 2010, 02:52 PM
Seems Apple just keeps on digging themselves deeper and deeper. First they tell their customers to just "deel with it" about the antenna issue.. then they say it's an arroneous calculation of the signal bars (that was a funny one since the bars are now "accurate" and shows how bad AT&T really is lol). Now they are trying to divert the focus of their antenna design flaw by pointing the finger at the other phones., and btw were was the video test of their own iphone? Perhaps if they were more sincere and honest about their own issues then nobody would mind as much.. it's the undercoating and deception that people do not like; )

cRuNcHiE
Jul 21, 2010, 03:01 PM
For this video to have any kind of credit i think they should have the iPhone 4 next to it holding it at the same time...

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 03:12 PM
Apple should simply focus on resolving their own issues. It's not their job to be the "tattle tell" police pointing out problems or potential problems with their competitors. The press and/or markets will uncover issues with Apple competitors.

They weren't doing it for that purpose. It was to show people that it's a common problem with physics no matter who makes the phone. People were thinking that only Apple's iPhone has the problem and they were simply saying, no, it's not because it's apple product, it's because it's a cell phone.

rcandre2
Jul 21, 2010, 03:13 PM
Apple Apple Apple... or should I say Steve Steve Steve...

What you are doing right now is what a psychologist would call "diverting." You are simply trying to take away the focus of your own iPhone 4's faults and place everyone's attention on other brands that we do not care about. You admitted you screwed up (congratulations, that is a great first step). Now it is time to take another baby step and fix the problem... your problem... the iPhone 4.

Hovey
Jul 21, 2010, 03:16 PM
Apple Apple Apple... or should I say Steve Steve Steve...

What you are doing right now is what a psychologist would call "diverting." You are simply trying to take away the focus of your own iPhone 4's faults and place everyone's attention on other brands that we do not care about. You admitted you screwed up (congratulations, that is a great first step). Now it is time to take another baby step and fix the problem... your problem... the iPhone 4.

If this is the case then everyone should be complaining to every single cell phone manufacturer and demand a recall from them too. I don't hear or see that, though.

rcandre2
Jul 21, 2010, 03:20 PM
If this is the case then everyone should be complaining to every single cell phone manufacturer and demand a recall from them too. I don't hear or see that, though.

Oh you silly goose... that is because every other manufacturer's phones are not dropping calls... that is just one of the new things the iPhone is "changing again." It's funny because I've owned dozens and dozens of phones throughout the years including the iPhone 2G, 3G and 3GS and never experienced this garbage...

mrbrightside623
Jul 21, 2010, 03:21 PM
Yeah.... 2 bars on 3.5G..... And the iP4 goes to edge or even dropped calls cause of no signal. The nokia may have dropped to 2 bars but is still fine since it's still on the 3G network. It will take a lot more than that to drop it to edge...

calzon65
Jul 21, 2010, 03:23 PM
Apple Apple Apple... or should I say Steve Steve Steve...

What you are doing right now is what a psychologist would call "diverting." You are simply trying to take away the focus of your own iPhone 4's faults and place everyone's attention on other brands that we do not care about. You admitted you screwed up (congratulations, that is a great first step). Now it is time to take another baby step and fix the problem... your problem... the iPhone 4.

You are 100% correct, this is exactly what Apple is doing and many in the press have raised the same fact. It is a classic and deliberate PR move to divert attention away from Apple’s own issues…even if their competitors have the same or similar issues.

Since '84
Jul 21, 2010, 04:21 PM
You know, I've been reading all this stuff, and was a bit worried while I waited for my iPhone4 to arrive. Since then, I have traveled to 4 countries on business, and have been a long distance train through rural areas. I have tried everywhere to use the death grip to drop the signal to 0, but I can't. I can't get it to drop a call, and I can't get it to lose signal - I can get it to 1 bar but I can still surf on 3G with that, and the call quality has been fine. I've used overseas carriers' SIM's too...And I'm left handed, and have no case.
At the end of all this, I've simply decided that for me, this phone is the best I've had, and I have no problem with it in any way. I'm just glad I won't have to read all this stuff and worry any more. Sorry if you have problems, but as everyone says, take it back. Being a long time Mac user I have no problem using equipment that is not the most common anyway.

ThePoach
Jul 21, 2010, 04:21 PM
So if another car company was hiding the same problem Toyota had, and Toyota pointed it out, that would be wrong? Why are the other companies denying it?

Yes it would.. maybe that is why Toyota was able to surpass all these claims, assuming most of them were real since everyone is trying to make a quick buck these days lol. They dealt with their own problems and I would buy a Toyota any day:)

Question for you Hovey.. Are you working for Apple????

Is that you Mr. Jobs, answering questions again? lol

Torrijos
Jul 21, 2010, 04:55 PM
Even if Rim, Palm, etc. exhibit the same antenna problems as the iPhone 4, Apple is acting like a cry baby by trying to shift the discussion to include their competitors. “Teacher, the other kids are being bad too, don’t punish me alone”.

Actually it was the competitors that tried to use the antenna problems as a selling point and as propaganda.

http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/06/28/how-do-you-hold-your-nokia/
So the lot of them are fair game...

As for bloggers that just wanted to troll the issue to drive their numbers up the presentation (and answers that followed) were pretty much Jobs telling them to try and get a journalist degree and get their facts straight, and who could blame him?

Since the iPhone 4 as started shipping we've had the antenna problem that has being described as if the phone could simply not be used (numbers debunked that) without real investigation, fake Jobs e-mail, fake reports of an engineer warnings etc.

If it wasn't for anandtech this all would be a complete disaster. The way different technology sites reported the story is just pathetic.

CplBadboy
Jul 21, 2010, 05:10 PM
LOL! Yeah it might drop a few bars but it doesnt show no service like the iP4.

The iP4 drops calls and shows no service thats the issue not how many bars it drops.

makes me laugh that Apple are doing everything they can to divert everyones attention away from the REAL ISSUE - HARDWARE DESIGN FAILURE.

And Apple know that everyone will get bored posting soon on this issue and therefore it will really become an non issue.

Apple aint gonna do sht about this.

nsayer
Jul 21, 2010, 05:27 PM
It creates a constant -24dbm drop.

*TWEEEEEEET* Illegal use of units. 5 yard penalty. Repeat first down.

dB is a ratio unit, usable in the context of "...a 24 dB drop." dBm is an absolute unit - dB up from a milliwatt.

starstreak
Jul 21, 2010, 06:40 PM
Ok yeah,yeah whatevers Apple. You need to do a hardware fix. Quit pointing fingers. Because unless you can tell me, the other phones in question sold 3million AND told their users that their phone is awesome cuz they made the attenna better, you're not gonna get me to stop thinking Apple is da bomb.

Frazzle
Jul 21, 2010, 06:51 PM
It's a problem. It's been reproduced by CNET, Consumer Reports, NYT, and many others.

That's the weird thing. It's only a small problem. But it's been reported by all these media and it's an Apple product, so it will get 'eyeballs'.

When the Nokia N97 came out (not in the US though) it was supposed to be the new flagship phone that was hailed as the 'iPhone killer'. But: the 'real' firmware wasn't ready and the preliminary version was riddled with bugs, the GPS antenna had a design fault requiring people to fiddle with bits of copper wire, the camera lens cover actually scratched the lens of the camera, the camera flash unit was creating a haze in every picture because of a design flaw and the phone either crashed, dropped calls or became unresponsive to its touchscreen several times a day.

Now, the Nokia forums and several blog sites were awash with people complaining. Many users left Nokia and swore they would never return. The company quickly released a follow-up model and provided hardware fixes - but only for people who actually complained. The whole N97 debacle was very badly handled by Nokia and they lost a lot of credibility with high-end users. Android and iPhone got a lot of new users.

Has any of this ever been reported in the mainstream media? Hell no.

jettredmont
Jul 21, 2010, 08:38 PM
Show me another phone that can drop calls from just the position of one finger. Nokia have their problems at the moment, but their reception has always been rock solid.


See one post directly above yours: the Nokia N1. Both points refuted with one example!

The point, again, is that the signal drop through touching the "right" spot with a finger maxes out significantly lower than the signal drop through dense body attenuation, as you get when your hand or head is blocking the signal. They are different things, but the more significant one is the one Apple is showing here.

This is just how antennas work. You can degrade a signal by detuning it, but you can stop the signal dead by attenuation.

DylanLikesPorn
Jul 21, 2010, 08:40 PM
go Apple. fight fire with fire.

payup
Jul 21, 2010, 10:33 PM
At 0:42 he changes his grip to hold the phone to holding it with just his fingers and the signal rises again. It looks like his fingertips are touching the lower left of the phone. If you do this on the iPhone 4 and bridge the antenna gap, you don't regain signal.

Looks to me like they're trying to pass off the problem of bridging the antenna gap on the iPhone as the same as blocking the antenna with your whole hand on all phones. All phones have the latter problem... But that's not the issue here.

This is exactly what they're doing. All phones will drop bars if held certain way yes. But there's no phones that will drop a call if touched with a single finger in a certain spot. I love everything else about the phone, but phone part of it is impossible to use, I dropped at least 10 calls today!

davidcarswell
Jul 22, 2010, 05:13 AM
The Nokia phone have not the same bars/signal ratio as the iphone 4.
The Nokia phone have 2 bars left when the iphone 4 have 0 left
The Nokia phone can still receive and make calls at that signal level
The iphone can not receive or make calls at 0 bars
You don't grip the nokia phone like that by user default, default grip with iphone gives problem
============================================
Apple fix your stupid antenna design and get Ive of his high horse.


for you and all other troubled users

:DME : LOVE MY IPHONE 4!
:mad:YOU: HATE YOUR IPHONE 4!
:cool:ME: CAN'T make the antennae bridge and attenuate my signal even when using my tongue on the bridging area. In fact I have never had such great reception and fast transfer of data-on any phone or iphone!
:eek:YOU: Either can't avoid bridging the area in question, have a bad service to begin with, are magnetic or electric (walk around in socks too much?) or just plain bitter.

:rolleyes:SOLUTION: return the iPhone for a full refund! It doesn't work for YOU. It does work for most everyone.

:pNOTE: Products are never going to make EVERYONE happy. If they are successful-they will be successful by achieving this-if not they won't be successful. If LEVI STRAUSS makes a pair of expensive jeans, and the particular features of the jeans make most people happy (cut, fit, color, durability, etc.) but they just don't seem to work for YOU-what solution would you come up with? I believe you as most people would do-is return them for a refund, give them to a friend or just throw them in the closet for some future day when they may just fit you-rather you fit them whichever the case may be! LEVI STRAUSS has a successful pair of pants - 3million plus are sold and they are hot hot hot! TOO BAD for YOU! GET another brand of jeans! ANOTHER BRAND OF JEANS!!!!! ANOTHER BRAND OF PHONE!!!! GET ANOTHER PHONE! ANOTHER NETWORK!
GET YOUR FULL REFUND - you may have to pay a restock fee for the jeans but APPLE will WAIVE the restock fee-JUST TAKE IT BACK! THE IPHONE IS NOT THE PHONE FOR YOOUUU!!! but is the phone for MOST!
DO YOU GET THIS?

la-di-da-di-da
la-di-da-di-de
what a b**ch life can be

-david

Cybbe
Jul 22, 2010, 06:00 AM
Apple is right now the most disgusting company in the business.

aliensporebomb
Jul 22, 2010, 06:55 AM
Amazing how polarized the results here are.

I wonder how dry or how moist the skin is on the users who have the constant call dropping problem.

My skin is really dry, bordering on uber dry.

No problems here really.

In fact, yesterday for the first time I ever I conducted a long distance call from a basement conference room in Stillwater Minnesota normally impossible to make cell calls from on ANY cell phone be it LG, Blackberry (various models), etc.

The iPhone4 held that call brilliantly - normally I had to walk upstairs to make and hold a call at that location.

TheAshMan
Jul 22, 2010, 07:34 AM
I'm sorry, but these video stunts are just bogus and have no credibility. Clearly on 3 of them the person holding the phone is applying a lot of vice-like pressure and squeezing the phones as hard as possible. You can see the arm shaking from applying so much force and the thumb turns red. Do they think people are that stupid? That is far removed from realistic usage of the phones, whereas the problem with the iPhone 4 is just touching it in a certain spot.

Apple is making it worse because instead of just being honest and forthcoming, they are now lying and trying to distract from the real issue. People will be understanding and wouldn't care if Apple would just be contrite, educate people about facts and make an attempt to rectify the situation. They did that by giving away the bumpers and sharing the data about dropped calls which helps their case that it is still a great phone, but everything else they have done damages their brand. Their attempt to mislead people from the facts is not helping.

nightcap965
Jul 22, 2010, 07:58 AM
What I want to know is, has Steve Jobs stopped beating his wife yet? :)

There's a reason the print press used to call mid-summer the Silly Season. People are on holiday. Washington, Ottawa, and the European capitols are deserted. Nothing much is going on, so the news has to be invented.

I would take this story seriously if I, or my wife, or my friends and work-mates experienced problems using our iPhone 4s. My iPhone is my exclusive phone for both home and work - if there were a problem with making or holding telephone calls, I'd be seriously affected. The only difference I've seen is that the calls are clearer and I'm now able to make and receive calls in places where I used to get no signal.

I'm just a little tired of hearing from people with no qualifications in engineering or public relations telling me what Apple did wrong and why Steve Jobs should commit ritual seppuku in disgrace.

But what do I know? I'm just a poor deluded fanboi lighting my apple-scented votive candles. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to make a call.

Compile 'em all
Jul 22, 2010, 08:21 AM
I'm sorry, but these video stunts are just bogus and have no credibility. Clearly on 3 of them the person holding the phone is applying a lot of vice-like pressure and squeezing the phones as hard as possible. You can see the arm shaking from applying so much force and the thumb turns red. Do they think people are that stupid? That is far removed from realistic usage of the phones, whereas the problem with the iPhone 4 is just touching it in a certain spot.

Apple is making it worse because instead of just being honest and forthcoming, they are now lying and trying to distract from the real issue. People will be understanding and wouldn't care if Apple would just be contrite, educate people about facts and make an attempt to rectify the situation. They did that by giving away the bumpers and sharing the data about dropped calls which helps their case that it is still a great phone, but everything else they have done damages their brand. Their attempt to mislead people from the facts is not helping.

What real issues?

Apple are selling iPhones as fast as they can make them.

Aside from a tiny minority on the internet, the avg. joe is out there enjoying and using their new iPhone. If it was a big issue as the media portrayed it, Apple wouldn't be selling a single unit.

You people are funny.

G5isAlive
Jul 22, 2010, 08:22 AM
They're not stooping. They are defending their product by demonstrating that the issue is not unique to their phone. I think most people instinctively knew this before the iPhone - telling someone that holding a phone a certain way might reduce the signal would have resulted in a shoulder shrug. Of course it will, it's a radio.

The N1 can't maintain a 3G signal when touched, period. Yet it didn't cause this kind of outcry because it wasn't from Apple.

truth.

it's called putting a problem into context so you can determine what is a possible fix. Apple can't change the laws of physics. My iPhone4 is a superior phone to my 3GS. I like it, and its reception, way better. and yes I use a case. I always have.

davidcarswell
Jul 22, 2010, 09:42 AM
Apple is right now the most disgusting company in the business.

you are a hoot

dmelgar
Jul 22, 2010, 09:46 AM
ALL phones are subject to detuning. The amount of detuning is up to the phone but this is natural. When someone told me, your signal drops when hold the iphone in a wierd way....no s***.
.

Untrue. The iPhone is the only phone affected this way. Apple implying a lie doesn't make it true.

davidcarswell
Jul 22, 2010, 09:58 AM
Untrue. The iPhone is the only phone affected this way. Apple implying a lie doesn't make it true.

Guess we believe what we wanna believe-I have yet to see one iphone personally drop bars - even trying to make it happen-mine and 9 other iphone users have all desperately tried to make this attenuation BS happen - well we honestly gave up-
All of us ENJOYING the best phone ever-
Honestly I am truly starting to wonder if these claims are out and out LIES as apposed to just enduser errors-and a small bunch of Debby downers.... well maybe it's all 3
RETURN YOUR iPHONES!!!
get your money back nagging

srxtr
Jul 22, 2010, 04:01 PM
But Apple admitted that it DOES drop more calls than 3GS.

They spun it as "less than 1 per 100", but assuming all 3,000,000 iPhone 4 users make about 5 calls per day, that's over ONE MILLION dropped calls per week MORE than iPhone 3GS.

It's a problem.
It's been reproduced by CNET, Consumer Reports, NYT, and many others.

The debate here is not whether there's a problem, but why Apple is obfuscating, rather than fixing it, pretending that bridging the gap of their electrically exposed antenna is equivalent to attenuating an antenna by completely covering it with one's meaty hand.
(seems like moving this gap to the bottom edge of the phone where it's far less likely to be touched, would be an easy fix).

ONE MILLION dropped calls per week = less than one dropped calls per week per iPhone 4 user.

I haven't had a single dropped call yet though, same with all the other iPhone 4 owners I know.

ademuth93
Jul 22, 2010, 04:05 PM
Untrue. The iPhone is the only phone affected this way.

I laughed at this.

So you mean to say that holding any other phone will never change the reception at all? HA!! Have you read your cell phone's user guide? On one of the first pages they have a diagram of how to hold the phone so as not to lose as much reception. Get a life, and stop calling me fanboy (assuming you're one of "those" people) because I can enjoy a perfectly usable phone more than you can.

GoodWatch
Jul 22, 2010, 04:25 PM
Apple is doing what they need to do to defend themselves against the smear job put out by the haters in the media and tech sites aligned against them.

You would fight back to if it were your....well you probably wouldnt.

The 'haters'? Are you serious? So anyone that DARES to show a sign of critisism towards Apple is labelled a hater now? "If you are not for us you are against us". Some people have a personal reality distortion field I tell you. It's only a phone man, it's not like the Sun is collapsing on itself.

TheAshMan
Jul 22, 2010, 04:45 PM
What real issues?

Apple are selling iPhones as fast as they can make them.

Aside from a tiny minority on the internet, the avg. joe is out there enjoying and using their new iPhone. If it was a big issue as the media portrayed it, Apple wouldn't be selling a single unit.

You people are funny.

I'm not really sure how to respond if you don't know what the issues are. My main point was the videos are dishonest and Apple has damaged themselves with their response. You disagree?

I agree it is a great phone and that everyone loves it as long as they have good coverage. I don't have the new one, but I have marginal AT&T coverage with my current iPhone. If I had just spent over $2,200 (phone + plan) and lost calls, I would not be happy. I think the response to give away the bumpers and reminding people that they can return them was a good, concrete response so far, but these propaganda videos are laughable and may come back to bite them.

No issue? It was being demonstrated that in marginal signal areas you could have 5 bars and then lose a call if your finger was in the wrong place. Apple immediately realized how bad that was for their brand released a patch that dramatically alters the signal bar on the phone, making them more accurate. They have 18 PhD's working on the antenna technology and they were "shocked"? Please. They knew exactly how their previous calculation distorted reality.

This issue brought it to the forefront. I have seen claims that many phone makers do the same thing, but how come my AT&T Blackberry Bold from work gets 2-3 bars at my house, but the iPhone gets 5? Apple knew it was enough of an issue to call a major press conference, where they discussed and obfuscated the issues.

Most people would use a case anyway, negating the issue for them, but that isn't the point.

fmjordan23
Jul 22, 2010, 06:15 PM
Not sure what the fuss is all about. I haven't had the "issues" that everyone seems to raising soo much sand about....but I bought a bumper to protect the phone. It's a device made by humans and it can malfunction.........didn't we know that already?

My iPhone 4 works better in my home theater system than the 3....no interference and no issue....my 3G didn't work correctly half the time. So....maybe the antenna attenuation actuals helps in doors........(kidding):D

kiljoy616
Jul 22, 2010, 11:54 PM
Oh my god...

did Apple seriously just make pointing fingers apart of their campaign?

I thought they were above that!

I understand that it's unfair that the other companies do that and all, but Apple really doesn't need to stoop to their level, do they?

They are still a company not a dam Religion so no they are not above it all.

Or do you think that other companies already are not preparing some kind of marketing around the problem.

That said, this generation of iphone will have this problem and that just something we have to live with if we want the look of the iphone.

kiljoy616
Jul 22, 2010, 11:57 PM
Apple is doing what they need to do to defend themselves against the smear job put out by the haters in the media and tech sites aligned against them.

You would fight back to if it were your....well you probably wouldnt.

Most people hide in the closet so your right they would not fight back.

kiljoy616
Jul 22, 2010, 11:59 PM
Annoyed by Apple? I'm sure Apple is annoyed by all the people who are saying that Apple doesn't know how to make phones, especially when the problem they're getting flak from is also reproduced on other phones just as easilly, but no other companies are getting **** on by the public and media for also having this issue? Why is it ONLY Apple that gets dumped on?

Because we love Apple and just use Nokia phones, who cares about BlackBerry, except when someone with a patent almost shut them down completely in America. In the end Apple with ONE ONLY PHONE MODEL IS DOING INCREDIBLE, who can say the same?

Iphone 4 is not perfect but it sweet that for sure! :D

kiljoy616
Jul 23, 2010, 12:03 AM
The 'haters'? Are you serious? So anyone that DARES to show a sign of critisism towards Apple is labelled a hater now? "If you are not for us you are against us". Some people have a personal reality distortion field I tell you. It's only a phone man, it's not like the Sun is collapsing on itself.

So if its only a phone why comment. No distortion here. Its a good phone, has some issues, same as many phones. But other phones no one cares, just like I don't care about other phones, you should not care about the Iphone 4.

MathiasMag
Jul 23, 2010, 12:54 AM
So with all the speak of how unacceptable this is. Who has actually decided that the iPhone 4 is so bad that they returned their phone AND bought another advanced phone? It seems to me that there are a lot of people who has never owned one that are critical, but most of those who actually has bought one are really happy with their phone.

TheRunningChef
Jul 25, 2010, 09:24 PM
I don't really see why anyone thinks that Apple is not taking responsibility what's going on with the iPhone 4. They are saying that this signal attenuation is a problem, but that's it's not uncommon in regards to cell phones and that other reputable companies make devices with similar problems. This, in my opinion is great PR. They are bringing the topic down to a relatable level where most people can see that it's not because they don't care about the their products anymore or are not worried about maintaining their good image. Does anyone seriously believe they rushed this out just to get some more money without properly testing it? I have spent a lot of time with the new iPhone and have noticed that it performs incredibly well and that the supposed "signal attenuation" issue people blew out of proportion is something I have to go out of my way to achieve. Sure I might accidentally do it a few times in the phones life time, but I already had minor hiccups with the 3GS that didn't make the phone worthless. Honestly, if the phone bothers anyone that much, just get that free bumper. And I believe Apple is offering a money back option for returning the phone.

LeeRain
Aug 3, 2010, 04:25 PM
Nokia???? What's a 'Nokia'?