Software & Firmware Updates

[Mudbug]

Available tonight via Software Update:
The Power Mac G5 Firmware Update improves system reliability for Power Mac G5 (June 2004) systems.
there currently is no kbase article listed in reference to this update.

[child810]

Installed this a couple hours ago. Everything's a-ok. Yeah !

[Mudbug]

does it show anything in the update notes to let you know what it's doing?

[Mac-Xpert]

I find my G5 already very reliable so far. I'm not sure if I should update the firmware.

Does anyone know more about this?

I do hope that this firmware update is more reliable than the 10.3.6 OS-X update. ;)

[bux]

I installed it... no problems but I didn't notice anything "new" either (since my G5 was/is really reliable).
I wish apple could put out a more detailed description of this...

[Scottyk9]

I haven't installed this yet either, but discussion at the Apple discussion board seems to indicate that acceleration of the fans seems to be affected. That is, the fans don't seem to quickly rev up as much.

[TENBLUE7™]

...installed and working fine despite me shaking like a leaf thinking it would affect my "non-kingston" third party ram.

And 4g's worth at that, but it's fine.

Next 10.3.7...

[Mac-Xpert]

I haven't installed this yet either, but discussion at the Apple discussion board seems to indicate that acceleration of the fans seems to be affected. That is, the fans don't seem to quickly rev up as much.Well, that would be nice. But I think I will just wait a little longer. If there aren't any reports on "shrewd up G5s" coming in, then I'll update to see if this improves the fan-rev behavior. I could imagine that at least the "auto performance" mode could do with some less sporadic fan behavior.

[criana]

Anyone with a dual 1.8Ghz G5 run this update?

Also do I need to take out aftermarket RAM before I do it?

I'm wondering if this update will fix my USB crashing problems.

[TENBLUE7™]

...yeah running a dual 1.8 (>June 2004 Model) using 4 gb's or aftermarket ram - left it in and it updated fine.

Was a little scared after reading about the uni processor firmware update not liking non kingston etc ram, but I've ran hardware test four times and the memories always passed.

Useless info but it keeps my mind at rest.

Cheers

[criana]

TENBLUE7™,
Thanks!!! That puts my mind at rest. I'll run the update when I come back from lunch.

[Crunchy]

Does anyone know if this is meant to be installed on DP 2.5 G5s? My machine shipped in August. Does this count as a June 2004 G5? Apple's giving a pretty ambiguous description of what this update is, and with few details about what it's supposed to do. Any details would be helpful here...

[TENBLUE7™]

...your right it is very vague on the description, I think it's ment for all dual processor G5 machines from June 2004 onwards.

[mityx]

Anyone with a dual 1.8Ghz G5 run this update?

Also do I need to take out aftermarket RAM before I do it?

I'm wondering if this update will fix my USB crashing problems.


Hey criana....
I've had my dual 1.8 a couple of months now and I've always had USB crashing problems too. Very frustrating. I've had more kernel panics with my new G5 in 2 months than I did in a few years with my old G4/400.

Ran the firmware update and it doesn't seem to have fixed much.
Also still having troubles playing DVDs....always get lots of green artifacts all over the screen.

Anyone else getting this problem?

[simie]

Crunchy

I have installed the update on my G5 2.5 dual and it works fine.
:cool:

[MacRumors]

Available today via Software Update:Read Before You Install iPod Updater

iPod Updater 2004-11-15 includes iPod mini Software 1.2 for iPod mini and iPod software 3.0.2. for iPods with a Click Wheel. iPod Updater 2004-11-15 contains the same software versions as iPod Updater 2004-10-20 for all other iPod models.

New features of iPod mini Software 1.2:
Compatibility with iTunes 4.7 and iTunes Music Store
Shuffle and play song library with one click (using the Shuffle Songs item in the main menu)
Create multiple On-The-Go playlists
Delete songs from On-The-Go playlists
Select reading playback speed for audiobooks
Hear Click Wheel clicker through headphones
Sync and go with improved disconnect performance

New features of iPod Software 3.0.2 provides:
Compatibility with iTunes 4.7 and iTunes Music Store
Improved USB 2.0 connectivity

For more information about iPod, go to http://www.apple.com/support/ipod.

Also made available a firmware update yesterday for owners of June 2004 model G5 Power Macs. The text accompanying the update stated simply:
The Power Mac G5 Firmware Update improves system reliability for Power Mac G5 (June 2004) systems.
There is no explanation of the firmware posted to Apple's website yet.

[johnnyjibbs]

I just got this in Software Update. I will install the iPod update at some point but I don't get it. It says it adds iTunes 4.7 compatibility but I'm already on iTunes 4.7 with no problems? :confused:

[TopCatz]

Works fine on iPod mini. Now has the more rational menu system with Music and Shuffle. Shame they don't do that for 3Gs and back as it is such a basic, simple yet useful change.
(Looking forward to the Bluewater Apple store in UK as I can't make the Regent St. opening :cool: )

[Lancetx]

This brings the iPod mini's feature set just about on par with the 4G iPods. Since they're still "current" models, it's good to see they've finally released this for the mini as well.

[Sun Baked]

Ran the firmware update and it doesn't seem to have fixed much.

Also still having troubles playing DVDs....always get lots of green artifacts all over the screen.

Anyone else getting this problem?That's an old problem, most likely related to an overheating video card.

Usually shows when people are really hammering the GPU.

Some cards came with shifted heatsinks on the cards (manufacturing problems.) Some people were able to correct the problem by a quite R&R with some new thermal paste. Others opted for a card replacement.

Then there are those who can also ran into this problem when they run 2 monitors, or have the computer located in a warm area. Which basically means an upgrade to an overclocker video card heatsink.

---

As far as the USB problems, there is a chance you need to check out the System Profiler to see how the devices are being reported -- some of the old devices didn't correctly ID their power usage, so the OS and new machines just turn them off.

If the USB device actually freezes the machine... :confused:

[Rick Friele]

It won't let me update my iPod mini. Only option I have is restore. Should I just do that and then resync it.

[SFNE Freak]

Yesssss! I've waited for updated mini features for oh-so-long. :-)

[Rick Friele]

Yesssss! I've waited for updated mini features for oh-so-long. :-)
Is it letting you "Update" or just "Restore"?

[whenpaulsparks]

thanks, apple, for supporting your loyal 3G ipod owners. thanks a lot.

i can't effing afford a new one.

[SFNE Freak]

Is it letting you "Update" or just "Restore"?
Yes, it let me update as usual.

[wrldwzrd89]

thanks, apple, for supporting your loyal 3G ipod owners. thanks a lot.

i can't effing afford a new one.
It sure doesn't look like the software for any iPods other than the 4G, iPod Photo, and iPod mini was updated. That includes us 3G iPod owners. That's why I rated this negative.

[mfacey]

It sure doesn't look like the software for any iPods other than the 4G, iPod Photo, and iPod mini was updated. That includes us 3G iPod owners. That's why I rated this negative.


I'm afraid I'm negative on this one too. I'd bet my 3G is technically just about the same as a 4G. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to have all the software features of the 4G. Of course, if Apple did that there'd suddenly be a rush for used 3Gs, cos there'd be no added value in getting a 4G (edit: besides better battery of course!). Besides, I still think the 3G looks better than the 4G! :p

[Blue Moon]

Should I use this update on my U2 iPod that just arrived yesterday?

[nguyenhm16]

Should I use this update on my U2 iPod that just arrived yesterday?

Plug it in, see what happens.

[damson34]

I'm afraid I'm negative on this one too. I'd bet my 3G is technically just about the same as a 4G. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to have all the software features of the 4G. Of course, if Apple did that there'd suddenly be a rush for used 3Gs, cos there'd be no added value in getting a 4G (edit: besides better battery of course!). Besides, I still think the 3G looks better than the 4G! :p

Actually the chipset the mini and 4th Gen share are completely different then the 3rd Gen and that is why they aren't updating it.

[Blue Moon]

I guess it did need to be updated to 3.0.2.

[sparky76]

Installed the firmware update on my 2.5 DP. Don't see any change. Any word yet on what exactly it fixes?

[wrldwzrd89]

Actually the chipset the mini and 4th Gen share are completely different then the 3rd Gen and that is why they aren't updating it.
That's too bad. I don't want to buy a new iPod. My question is this:
Why on earth did the 4G iPod need an iTunes 4.7 compatibility update, but the 3G iPod did not? My 3G iPod works just fine with iTunes 4.7.

[ColoJohnBoy]

Does anyone know if this update will bring the battery life of the iPod mini on par with that of the 4G iPods? There was discussion of such an improvement a few months ago when rumors of this update first surfaced... 'twould be nice to have 12 hour battery life on my little Mr. Darcy...

[stcanard]

That's too bad. I don't want to buy a new iPod. My question is this:
Why on earth did the 4G iPod need an iTunes 4.7 compatibility update, but the 3G iPod did not? My 3G iPod works just fine with iTunes 4.7.

Probably it's a photo library compatibility update, and only affects the iPod Photo.

As for those people grousing over no 3G updates: GET OVER IT I've got a 3G. It isn't broken. It does exactly what I was told it would do when I bought it.

Apple is in the business of sellings things to make money. You don't sell things if you keep giving them away for free. Not only that, but do you have any idea how much it costs to develop and test for a branch of an old version?

For old versions of anything (ipods, software etc) expect bug fixes only. And if there is a bug that doesn't get fixed, then you can complain. Don't expect Apple to give you a free bloody 4G just because you're upset that you bought something a year ago.

Rant ends.

[damson34]

That's too bad. I don't want to buy a new iPod. My question is this:
Why on earth did the 4G iPod need an iTunes 4.7 compatibility update, but the 3G iPod did not? My 3G iPod works just fine with iTunes 4.7.

my guess is that it had to do more with the mini needing to be compatible due to the new software but not wanting to put just better USB 2.0 connectivity or to say compatibility with iTunes 4.7 as well.

[wrldwzrd89]

Probably it's a photo library compatibility update, and only affects the iPod Photo.

As for those people grousing over no 3G updates: GET OVER IT I've got a 3G. It isn't broken. It does exactly what I was told it would do when I bought it.

Apple is in the business of sellings things to make money. You don't sell things if you keep giving them away for free. Not only that, but do you have any idea how much it costs to develop and test for a branch of an old version?

For old versions of anything (ipods, software etc) expect bug fixes only. And if there is a bug that doesn't get fixed, then you can complain. Don't expect Apple to give you a free bloody 4G just because you're upset that you bought something a year ago.

Rant ends.
OK. I'll go with that. That makes sense. I don't want a 4G (free or not) iPod anyway - at least not right now. Maybe when Apple releases an 80 GB iPod I'll buy another one - unless, of course, High Efficiency Advanced Audio Coding (HE-AAC) is introduced before then.

[damson34]

Probably it's a photo library compatibility update, and only affects the iPod Photo.

As for those people grousing over no 3G updates: GET OVER IT I've got a 3G. It isn't broken. It does exactly what I was told it would do when I bought it.

Apple is in the business of sellings things to make money. You don't sell things if you keep giving them away for free. Not only that, but do you have any idea how much it costs to develop and test for a branch of an old version?

For old versions of anything (ipods, software etc) expect bug fixes only. And if there is a bug that doesn't get fixed, then you can complain. Don't expect Apple to give you a free bloody 4G just because you're upset that you bought something a year ago.

Rant ends.

except the fact this wasn't an update for the iPod Photo, even though it is a 4th Gen with color it still isn't updated with the fourth Gen's it has an entirely different update. The only two models that were in this update were the mini and 4th Gen's

[jxyama]

clicker sound through headphone is a nice touch for the mini - wanted that since the beginning...

by the way, 3G owners complaining... you don't have to get over anything. if these minute (imo) improvements in mini and 4G but not 3G mean *that* much to you - so much that all the reasons you bought an iPod from apple to begin with go out the window - remember this in a few years and don't bother buying another apple product.

$$$ speaks louder to apple than any complaints you can log at MR...

[conceptuweasel]

I have tried to install the firmware update 5 times now and it has done nothing. Software Update keeps thinking that it hasn't been installed and tells me to install it and my System Profiler shows no change. Boot ROM Version is still 5.1.8f3. I've got a June 2004 2.0GHz G5 with bluetooth, ATI Radeon 9600 XT, and Combo Drive. Nothing weird about my computer. Except that it won't install. Haven't tried restarting that because of registering for classes. Any ideas?

Justin

edit: Where are these Apple forums that people have been talking about this? I can't find them.

[veedubdrew]

Is this a G5 you bought in June, or one of the new models on the 90nm die process that was introduced in June? If it's a 130nm G5 that was bought in June, the firmware update may not apply to your machine. Just a thought.

-Drew

I have tried to install the firmware update 5 times now and it has done nothing. Software Update keeps thinking that it hasn't been installed and tells me to install it and my System Profiler shows no change. Boot ROM Version is still 5.1.8f3. I've got a June 2004 2.0GHz G5 with bluetooth, ATI Radeon 9600 XT, and Combo Drive. Nothing weird about my computer. Except that it won't install. Haven't tried restarting that because of registering for classes. Any ideas?

Justin

edit: Where are these Apple forums that people have been talking about this? I can't find them.

[Doctor Q]

Where are these Apple forums that people have been talking about this? I can't find them.http://discussions.info.apple.com/

[Multimedia]

That's too bad. I don't want to buy a new iPod. My question is this:
Why on earth did the 4G iPod need an iTunes 4.7 compatibility update, but the 3G iPod did not? My 3G iPod works just fine with iTunes 4.7.As an aside, I found iTunes 4.7 has disabled searching for the group field. I had to revert to iTunes 4.6 because of this deleted capability because I use the group field to isolate all my Air America Radio dot com tracks. Hard to understand why 4.7 would not retain that capability. As a result, 4.7 is useless to me.

Just so you all know. :rolleyes:

[Multimedia]

I have tried to install the firmware update 5 times now and it has done nothing. Software Update keeps thinking that it hasn't been installed and tells me to install it and my System Profiler shows no change. Boot ROM Version is still 5.1.8f3. I've got a June 2004 2.0GHz G5 with bluetooth, ATI Radeon 9600 XT, and Combo Drive. Nothing weird about my computer. Except that it won't install. Haven't tried restarting that because of registering for classes. Any ideas?

Justin

edit: Where are these Apple forums that people have been talking about this? I can't find them.You Mean Dual 2 GHz G5? Those are all 2003 models that won't want the firmware update. That's what I bought in July 2004 from the Refurbished Store and I don't expect it will want anything to do with this firmware update. :)

[Sabbath]

I'd pretty much given up hope of this mini update appearing, and then all of a sudden there it is yay. I hink my 3G iPod is going to see even less use now, and it rarely sees the light of day until my mini battery is dead recently. I haven't play with a 4G yet so I'll comment quickly on the changes to the menus, I love the fact you can now make multiple on the go playlists and delete songs from playlists. The playlists being under a music rather than seperate from browse seems to make a lot of sence, it's one less menu to jump back and forward to when creating on the go playlists. The clicker through the headphones is also a good idea, I like to hear the clicker as its gives a nice mechanical feeling to the action, but it can be a pain when you are listening to music and can't hear the clicker but are making noise for others. However I'm not a big fan of the noise of trhe clicker through the headphones when no music is playing, it's fine when music is playting but it sounds a bit odd when nothing is playing. I thought the suffle songs button would just suffle the playlist of album you are playing, I'm not a big fan of it suffling all your music. Anyway good update for mini owners.

[~Shard~]

How about an update for my 3G iPod, everything always seems to be for the minis or 4G lately. Hmm, of course maybe all that means is that my 3G is superior to the 4Gs - the 4Gs require updates all the time, my 3G is perfect and doesn't require them in the first place. :p :cool:

[TopCatz]

Don't get too agitated all you lot about us 3G-ers making a valid query about the update. Each G replaces the one that preceded it and has a fundamental difference in design - mechanical wheel > dock > scroll wheel > click-wheel: and increased capacity and batt. life. and now photo - but they all are designed to play music in the best way possible.
The menu update is no reason to rush out and buy a new $$$ iPod if you already have one - design and capacity are the primary pulls. - but it would be good to unify the menu across the whole range. It really cannot be difficult to do.
The old versions are not competing with the new versions and I really do not believe that sales will slow if they update older pods. If my 3G gets the menu update I will be happy, sure, but it will not stop me from buying a new one because if I do it will be because of more GBs and photos.
I love everything about Apple - this is just a minor niggle, that's all, and doesn't make much sense.

[damson34]

As an aside, I found iTunes 4.7 has disabled searching for the group field. I had to revert to iTunes 4.6 because of this deleted capability because I use the group field to isolate all my Air America Radio dot com tracks. Hard to understand why 4.7 would not retain that capability. As a result, 4.7 is useless to me.

Just so you all know. :rolleyes:

actually I ran into the same problem and found that the upgrade unchecked in the view options type ( i think it is called, just recheck that and u should be able to search for types of files again.

[Sabbath]

As an aside, I found iTunes 4.7 has disabled searching for the group field. I had to revert to iTunes 4.6 because of this deleted capability because I use the group field to isolate all my Air America Radio dot com tracks. Hard to understand why 4.7 would not retain that capability. As a result, 4.7 is useless to me.

Just so you all know. :rolleyes:

Does seem kind of strange that they would disable such functionality. I presume you have made it known to Apple, through one of their feedback methods that the functionality has gone and you want it back. It might be so few people use it that no has noticed and they don't realise it has gone.

[recursivejon]

I have tried to install the firmware update 5 times now and it has done nothing.... Any ideas?

Maybe the firmware update allows you to install future firmware updates.

[conceptuweasel]

Yeah, so Software Update and I are dumb. It didn't want to do the firmware update until I quit it for some reason. Everything is fine now.

And yes, I meant to write dual 2GHz G5. Which I am very happy with.

[t300]

What do you 3rd genner's actually want an update for? You still have a great iPod that plays music. Ta-da! A worthy investment. Sorry, you cannot have improved battery life, or the ability to select playback speed, or the shuffle feature. Why? Because, not only are they entirely different, but because Apple, being a company and all, would like for you to get a new one. Chevy doesn't come back and say "Oh, your 2003 Corvette is lacking just a few small features than the 2005 one so drop off your car and will put a better engine in it and put a satellite radio tuner in it." It just doesn't work that way. Also, Apple's VERY generous in their updates for their hardware. Go get another music player and you will see how there are hardly any updates to them. Apple releases some no matter what, miniscule things or huge things.

Anyway, this is ironic that the Mini update comes out today...I had waited for it SOO long. iPod Photo was announced, sold the mini hours later, and hours later the next day I had a brand new iPod Photo...The rest is history.

[Lancetx]

This same old, tired and lame discussion comes up every single time there is an iPod software update. :rolleyes: It should be no surprise by now that only the current model iPods will ever see feature upgrades. It's been the same now for at least 2 years, it's nothing new and it does no good to complain about it.

Apple is in business to sell new units and make money. If they didn't add new exclusive features to the latest generation iPods, there wouldn't ever be any real incentive for anyone to upgrade. The same will happen when the 5G models come along too, it's not going to ever change. Apple isn't the only company that works that way either, they all do. A 2 year old DVD player for example isn't ever going to have all of the same features as the latest and greatest model. That's just reality. And as a few have so rightly pointed out, the 1G/2G/3G iPods haven't lost one single feature that they've always had from day one when they were purchased either, so nobody is being cheated out of anything.

[t300]

This same old, tired and lame discussion comes up every single time there is an iPod software update. :rolleyes: It should be no surprise by now that only the current model iPods will ever see feature upgrades. It's been the same now for at least 2 years, it's nothing new and it does no good to complain about it.

Apple is in business to sell new units and make money. If they didn't add new exclusive features to the latest generation iPods, there wouldn't ever be any real incentive for anyone to upgrade. The same will happen when the 5G models come along too, it's not going to ever change. Apple isn't the only company that works that way either, they all do. A 2 year old DVD player for example isn't ever going to have all of the same features as the latest and greatest model. That's just reality. And as a few have so rightly pointed out, the 1G/2G/3G iPods haven't lost one single feature that they've always had from day one when they were purchased either, so nobody is being cheated out of anything.


Wow, we were on the same level on thinking in our posts...(See the one above yours). But I obviously can't agree with you anymore..

[notkevin]

I dont care if apple releases updates for my iPod g3 or not, when I bought it I knew its feature set.

[mojohanna]

Hey criana....
I've had my dual 1.8 a couple of months now and I've always had USB crashing problems too. Very frustrating. I've had more kernel panics with my new G5 in 2 months than I did in a few years with my old G4/400.

Ran the firmware update and it doesn't seem to have fixed much.
Also still having troubles playing DVDs....always get lots of green artifacts all over the screen.

Anyone else getting this problem?

Watch for a logic board problem. I have a DP 1.8 bought in June 2004. I had lots of probs with it. Kernel panics, crashes, freezes. Very frustrating to say the least. Stock everything, hardware test said everything was fine. I also reinatalled the OS. Finally got fed up and took it back to the Apple Store. Had it back a week later with a new logic board. No problems since.

[Le Big Mac]

The old versions are not competing with the new versions and I really do not believe that sales will slow if they update older pods. If my 3G gets the menu update I will be happy, sure, but it will not stop me from buying a new one because if I do it will be because of more GBs and photos.
I love everything about Apple - this is just a minor niggle, that's all, and doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, I doubt too many people upgrade just because of a lack of features.

It's just consumer-unfriendly by Apple. Generally they are very friendly, which is why this rankles. I don't really get it--they're clearly not trying to make old ipods non-functional--so it's kind of weird. Are they trying to kill a secondary market, which it won't do anyway, since it will just change the relative price.

Overall a "Booo" to apple on this continued practice--give us upgrades to the extent the old iPods are capable. We understand the rest . . .

[Le Big Mac]

If they didn't add new exclusive features to the latest generation iPods, there wouldn't ever be any real incentive for anyone to upgrade.

They break and wear out, don't they? Without upgrades, I'm less likely to buy a new one until I absolutely need it. If I could upgrade, I would have more confidence that I could use it or sell it to finance a new one.

[jmsait19]

thanks, apple, for supporting your loyal 3G ipod owners. thanks a lot.

i can't effing afford a new one.

No kidding. Weren't all the people that bought the 3G's the ones that actually made the iPod as huge as it is now? How about showing us a little more love, since we shelled out $300 for your love already.

[jcook793]

Thank God for the command-line. I'm upstairs in the bedroom with the laptop. G5 is all the way down in the office. I'm lazy. So...
[superbrain:~] root# softwareupdate -l
Software Update Tool
Copyright 2002-2003 Apple Computer, Inc.

Software Update found the following new or updated software:
! iPod2004-11-15-0
iPod Updater 2004-11-15, (null), 20600K [required]
* AirPortSW-4.1
AirPort Software, 4.1, 13880K [restart]

[superbrain:~] root# softwareupdate -i iPod2004-11-15-0 AirPortSW-4.1
Software Update Tool
Copyright 2002-2003 Apple Computer, Inc.


iPod Updater 2004-11-15: 0...10...20...30...40...
AirPort Software: 0...10...20...30...40...
iPod Updater 2004-11-15: 0...10...20...30...40...50...60...70...80...90...100
AirPort Software: 0...10...20...30...40...50...60...70...80...90...100
Optimizing system performance. This may take a while...
Done.

You have installed one or more updates that requires that you restart your
computer. Please restart immediately.

[superbrain:~] root# reboot
Now if I could just get that hooked into apt-get somehow... :)

[BWhaler]

I have tried to install the firmware update 5 times now and it has done nothing. Software Update keeps thinking that it hasn't been installed and tells me to install it and my System Profiler shows no change. Boot ROM Version is still 5.1.8f3. I've got a June 2004 2.0GHz G5 with bluetooth, ATI Radeon 9600 XT, and Combo Drive. Nothing weird about my computer. Except that it won't install. Haven't tried restarting that because of registering for classes. Any ideas?

Justin

edit: Where are these Apple forums that people have been talking about this? I can't find them.

I had the same problem. I tried a bunch of times to reboot and install, but it never took.

But I was doing it wrong, and the directions could be a little bit more explicit.

What you need to do is push the power button, and really, really hold it down...much longer than you usually do to restart your Mac.

My PM made a sound I had never heard before--not the regular bong--and then instantly went to a new screen and started installing the update. The CD drive opened, the machine appeared to turn off, paused for about 20 seconds, then the machine rebooted and the CD drawer closed.

When OSX was up and loaded, I got a message for the first time that the update had installed properly.

So, I'm assuming your making the same error I did. Hold down that button and keep holding it until the weird squeeking noise comes out of your PowerMac.

[maya]

For what it's worth and I have not read ALL the posts, I like the 3G iPod better than the other generations.

My main concern is that once HE-AAC is introduced will it work with all iPod generations and people who have invested in iTMS will they be getting the same music only encoded in HE-AAC, or does one have to burn they AAC copy to optical and then encode to HE-AAC. Wouldn't that mean QUALITY LOSS. iTMS has its downsides to it. :P

If I had purchased iTMS music (if it were indeed available to Canada) and I were not getting a superior quality version in exchange I would be pissed. :P

[swissmann]

I too am intrigued by this G5 update, due to the vagueness by Apple. I am assuming that my 1st Generation G5 dual 2 won't take this update. Any one had a different experience?

[CubaTBird]

I read on ipodlounge or somewhere else that the 3g's have technically faster processors in them than the 4g's. The 3g's having a 90mhz proc vs the 4 g's 80mhz, ill try and find the link if i can...

[jimsowden]

Anyone install on a single 1.6 PM? I don't get it in Software update. We did get that uniprocessor update. By the way, those who can't run the update on their mini, you need to authenticate the installer by clicking the little lock button in the bottom left.

[nagromme]

The way I see it, it's pretty simple:

1. It costs Apple something to test and support additional models of iPod with new features--even if they're the same inside (which I don't think they quite are). Adding features to the 3Gs isn't free for Apple.

2. iPods aren't sold or marketed with the promise of future features (unlike a conventional computer platform). An iPod does what it does and keeps on doing it--like an appliance. Sometimes Apple adds something--it's a technical possibility--but they don't promise you that. I have an iPod Photo, and Apple's materials never suggested to me that I'll be getting 5G features next year. I don't count on that happening. The iPod's worth it to me for what it does now.

3. Apple is selling a device to make money. In this case, the device has software and an OS inside, not just physical parts. So new and improved versions might differ largely on the software side. That doesn't mean Apple's not in the business of selling those software features. They're selling iPods and the features thereof, and giving some of that away is not always a good business move.

4. The decision for Minis is different because Minis are still in the currently-selling product line.

5. But OF COURSE I'll want new features when they come out. Anyone would. What's wrong with 3G owners being disappointed, and venting that disappointment? There's something they want, and maybe could have had, and they're not getting it. Nobody's going to like that. Just because Apple's "in the right" to make their business choices doesn't mean 3G owners aren't ALSO "in the right" to complain. I'll complain when my iPod Photo doesn't get new features, even though I CAN see Apple's position.

6. And as always, with anything you wish Apple did differently, don't forget to complain here--in detail, with reasons: http://apple.com/feedback (Possible reason: tell them you really would be MORE likely to buy a new iPod if older ones got more feature updates, because it would show Apple's commitment to great products. But for me, honestly, giving away features to me next year or the year after will make me LESS likely to buy a new iPod--so I can't personally make that case to Apple.)

[jesuscandle]

This same old, tired and lame discussion comes up every single time there is an iPod software update. :rolleyes: It should be no surprise by now that only the current model iPods will ever see feature upgrades. It's been the same now for at least 2 years, it's nothing new and it does no good to complain about it.

Apple is in business to sell new units and make money. If they didn't add new exclusive features to the latest generation iPods, there wouldn't ever be any real incentive for anyone to upgrade. The same will happen when the 5G models come along too, it's not going to ever change. Apple isn't the only company that works that way either, they all do. A 2 year old DVD player for example isn't ever going to have all of the same features as the latest and greatest model. That's just reality. And as a few have so rightly pointed out, the 1G/2G/3G iPods haven't lost one single feature that they've always had from day one when they were purchased either, so nobody is being cheated out of anything.

So I basically agree with this sentiment like a number of other posters. However, you can hardly blame us 3G owners. Who doesn't like something for nothing.

That said - if 3G owners don't "deserve" the upgrades, what makes Mini owners worthy? I mean, the same basic argument holds. People knew what they were getting with the Mini, etc...

[AidenShaw]

Wouldn't that mean QUALITY LOSS. iTMS has its downsides to it. :P

If I had purchased iTMS music (if it were indeed available to Canada) and I were not getting a superior quality version in exchange I would be pissed. :P

Exactly.

I won't buy online *anywhere* unless I can buy lossless (WMA/AAC or whatever).

There's no guarantee that today's "best" compressed format will be supported next year, in 2 years, or 5 years.

However, the original CD bits (or "mathematically lossless" compressions from WMA or Apple) means that I'll be able to convert my *purchases* to the new format without a loss of quality.



I'm more than happy to pay for the several terabytes of disk that I need to store my CD collection in Windows Media Lossless, than I would be to pay roughly the same amount of money for files that will not work on the next generation of devices (unless I do a horrible expand->recompress conversion pass).

Until I can buy the same bits online that I can buy on the CD - I'll be sitting out all of the "music stores".

And if you say "but you can't hear the difference" - listen to some simple unadorned female voice (like Eva Cassidy singing Sting's "Fields of Gold" on her CD "Songbird") or crisp percussion (steel brush on cymbals). If it isn't obvious that lossless (or the original CD) is noticeably better than the compressed version you should recharge the batteries in your hearing aid.

[~Shard~]

And if you say "but you can't hear the difference" - listen to some simple unadorned female voice (like Eva Cassidy singing Sting's "Fields of Gold") or crisp percussion (steel brush on cymbals). If it isn't obvious that lossless (or the original CD) is noticeably better than the compressed version you should recharge the batteries in your hearing aid.

I'll back you up on that one Aiden. Being a classic musician and a person who has had professional ear training, you can hear the difference if you know how to listen and what you're listening for. Especially when it comes to certain jazz, funk, orchestral, etc. works with broad ranges, I can always pick out differences. For some people it doesn't matter, but being a true lover of music, it matters to me. :cool:

[jxyama]

I'll back you up on that one Aiden. Being a classic musician and a person who has had professional ear training, you can hear the difference if you know how to listen and what you're listening for. Especially when it comes to certain jazz, funk, orchestral, etc. works with broad ranges, I can always pick out differences. For some people it doesn't matter, but being a true lover of music, it matters to me. :cool:

isn't it a bit conceited to imply that people who can't tell the difference in lossy and lossless music aren't "true music lovers"?

i am a good swimmer. i can swim faster than 99% of the population. does that make it ok for me to claim that people who can't do butterfly aren't "real" swimmers?

[BWhaler]

Agreed jxyama. Plus, your average music enthusiast doesn't care about the finer aspects of a song. They'd rather have variety, which means smaller file sizes. And we are in the majority.

But there is no right or wrong. It's a personal choice based on how you to chose to enjoy music. And I think we can all agree that it is the personal enjoyment that matters.

[XDream]

Hi guys,
I had some problems updating my DP2.5GHz - after Installing the frimware updater via Software Update the firmware update dialog appeard, telling me to shut down the computer and press the power button until it's flashing.

So I shut down and pressed the button - nothing happend - no flashing, no sound. After releasing the G5 bootet the normal way. After loggin in the firmware update dialog appeard again...

Is there anything special about pressing the power button or the DP2.5GHz? I really want to install the update. Has anyone experienced similar problems?

Thanks a lot,
Wolfgang

[BWhaler]

Re: Apple not supporting older iPods.

My understanding is the mini and the 4th gen iPods are based on new chip sets which allow Apple to build in new features.

I am not saying they couldn't of put in some of the new features, like the shuffle or new menu structure. But it is possible that some features like the new audiobooks option is not technically possible at the chip level.

Yes, Apple is a business, and they want to give people incentive to upgrade. And make a profit.

We all win if Apple makes a ton of money because they consistently prove that they can use the profits to keep innovating. Unlike the people in Redmond who spend $6B on R&D for God knows what. And yes, we all fall behind the curve now and then, but at least the innovation is there to keep us excited, even if we miss a generation or two.

But as Apple proves with OSX, they are better than most companies in supporting old hardware.

[whenpaulsparks]

As for those people grousing over no 3G updates: GET OVER IT I've got a 3G. It isn't broken. It does exactly what I was told it would do when I bought it.

the ipod mini was never supposed to have shuffle, or multiple on-the-go playlists, or any of the new features just added. and the ipod mini and 3G are from the same time period.

but along with the people that hold my point of view, the 3G does look a LOT nicer, and feels like it is made better. the click wheel feels like its gonna fall apart. i find it funny how the 3G was so revolutionary because it had no moving controls, then they go back to moving controls. the all-touch-sensitive interface is the reason i'm not upgrading until it dies.

[XDream]

Is there anything special about pressing the power button or the DP2.5GHz? I really want to install the update. Has anyone experienced similar problems?


I just solved the problem. I figured out, that you first have to completely unplug the G5 from electricity. After that the firmware update worked as intended :)

[Doctor Q]

My iPod mini accepted the update, and now has Shuffle in the main menu, but still doesn't play clicks through the headphones. Anybody else had this symptom?

[williamsonrg]

I don't have a PM, and only a 3G iPod, so none of these updates concerned me. Yet I still read the whole thread... what does that say about me? I don't think it says anything good, other than I need to just quit wasting money and buy myself an iMac.

[Eaon]

Thank God for the command-line. I'm upstairs in the bedroom with the laptop. G5 is all the way down in the office. I'm lazy. So...
snip...


That is the coolest thing I've seen all day. Thanks, jcook.

[Zaty]

My iPod mini accepted the update, and now has Shuffle in the main menu, but still doesn't play clicks through the headphones. Anybody else had this symptom?

You have to enable it in settings, it plays clicks either through the internal speaker or though the headphones.

This update is a nice surprise for a Friday morning, I've already given up hope the iPod mini update, which was rumoured months ago, would ever show up :)

[dotnina]

You have to enable it in settings, it plays clicks either through the internal speaker or though the headphones.

Or there's an option to have it play through both. :)

I'm glad this update is finally out. It seems to have also fixed the problem of iCal "To Do" items permanently staying on the iPod, even though you've deleted them in iCal. :)

[Doctor Q]

You have to enable it in settings, it plays clicks either through the internal speaker or though the headphones.Thanks, Zaty! That's just the tip I needed. I set it to "Both" and now I have all the clicks I want!

[geeman]

Anyone with a 4G have the "grating sound" issue?

Has it been addressed in this update??

For those who don't know: I've been seeing posts from 4G/iPod photo owners who complain about a "grating noise" thorough their headphones when the iPod HD is spinning. Also that some owners hear a "grating noise" when using the click wheel. Still others complain about unacceptable sound quality when listening to certain classical recordings (and it's not to do with their taste in music:p :p :p )

[shr]

It won't let me update my iPod mini. Only option I have is restore. Should I just do that and then resync it.

I believe when you first get an iPod the drive comes formatted as a MacOS filesystem. The first time you plug it into a Windows PC it insists that it needs to reformat the drive in order to work with the Windows machine. Then it reformats it to an MS-DOS filesystem; after-which it can be used both with MacOS and Windows.

The MacOS updater for an MS-DOS iPod refused to update it. If you download the Windows updater and do the update from the Windows machine it lets you update and keeps all your music. In fact that is what I just did.

If you want to check how your iPod is formated, hook it up to you Mac and then run Disk Utility. If you select the subcategory name of your iPod (my silver iPod mini is called SHINY) in the lower left it should show you the Format. For me it is MS-DOS File System.

As far as I know this is the only real downside of having the iPod formatted MS-DOS, but being able to connect it to Windows machines when I want to is well worth it. I suppose you lose the nice file permissions as well, but that hasn't been an issue for me. Anyone know of other limitations?

[JDOG_]

This is sweet. Just like a 4G :) The best part has got to be the fact that upon ejection or removal of the power connector the thing doesn't reset before being usable :eek: That had been bothering me about the mini since I got it.

I was expecting this update back in July, but better late than never right?

[displaced]

No kidding. Weren't all the people that bought the 3G's the ones that actually made the iPod as huge as it is now? How about showing us a little more love, since we shelled out $300 for your love already.

*sits on chair on front lawn shaking a stick*

And you kids with yer 3G iPods! It were us 2G buyers who made the iPod famous, darn it! Those Apple fellas wouldnt'a made a 3G without the 2G being a hit!

*pan a bit further down the road... see other old geezer on lawn, shaking a bigger stick*

Now listen here, sonny! You don't even know you were born! You 2G'ers with yer fancy schmancy touch sensitive wheel! Bah! In my day, the wheel actually turned! AND WE LIKED IT! Just like God intended! Bah...

*mumble mumble*

Anywaaaaayyyy :)

I've got a 2G iPod, which still works exactly the way it did when I thought it was worth buying. In fact, I still love the thing. 2 years later, I still find myself slightly giggly when setting up playlists. Maybe it's just odd that I still think what it does is insanely cool, even after using it every day for two years.

IMHO, it was the best money I've ever spent on a gadget. I've spent more on a top-of-the-range PC graphics card. More on a games console. As long as it continues to work how it was designed to, I'm more than happy.

(Also, it helped that I really, really dislike the button layout on the 3Gs. I had no problem at all keeping hold of my fatter/no OTG-playlist 2G iPod just to keep the 'classic' button arrangement.

Now the 4th gen's out with that cool clickwheel, *now* I wouldn't mind buying another. Maybe at tomorrow's AppleStore London opening!)

[erroneous]

but along with the people that hold my point of view, the 3G does look a LOT nicer, and feels like it is made better. the click wheel feels like its gonna fall apart. i find it funny how the 3G was so revolutionary because it had no moving controls, then they go back to moving controls. the all-touch-sensitive interface is the reason i'm not upgrading until it dies.

I really like the aesthetic of the 3G touch-sensitive controls. They're gorgeous. They just don't work very well for me. If I can't see the iPod - say it's strapped to my belt, or I'm just glancing in a different direction then, because the controls don't need pressure to be activated, I can't just run my finger across the surface to find the right button because the act of find the right button will activate all the buttons I've passed. The Mini/4Gs combination of a touch-sensitive wheel and clickable-buttons in clearly defined quandrants seems a reasonable compromise. Activating a button - a press - doesn't cause confusion with a volume change - a sweep.

The new Alu displays have the same issue (I have a 23") - the power and brightness up/down buttons are 3G iPod stylee on the right hand side at the bottom, so you can't see them without leaning around the edge of the screen or rotating it. Because they're touch sensitive you can't just find the first button with fa fingertip and count down - turning the brightness down normally involves either turning the brightness up, or the panel off accidentally before I find the correct button.

Touch sensitive controls are, imho, a triumph of a glorious aesthetic over the practical.

Sure, the click wheels aren't remotely as solid as the 3G fascias, but I find them much easier to interact with.

[mactarkus]

I flashed my DP2.5 yesterday with no ill effects so far...

Does anyone know if this is meant to be installed on DP 2.5 G5s? My machine shipped in August. Does this count as a June 2004 G5? Apple's giving a pretty ambiguous description of what this update is, and with few details about what it's supposed to do. Any details would be helpful here...

[sebisworld]

Thanks, Zaty! That's just the tip I needed. I set it to "Both" and now I have all the clicks I want!

How can you live with those clicks? I find them the single most annoying feature of the iPod - especially since I have to turn them off again after each reset (and my iPod crashes a lot).

[~Shard~]

isn't it a bit conceited to imply that people who can't tell the difference in lossy and lossless music aren't "true music lovers"?


Actually it is, my apologies, as that wasn't my intent at all. Now that I read that, it does kind of come across that way. All I was actually meaning was that due to my background, I can really appreciate music to its fullest - I didn't mean to say others cannot.

That being said, not everyone can listen to a symphony and appreciate the melodies, key changes, chords, progressions and so on, discerning the different harmonies and appreciate the music itself. Some people do not even understand things such as counterpoint. (Not saying that's wrong, just saying...) Many people love listening to house or trance music simply due to the sound, the energy, the big bass - although I love to do this as well, I also listen and appreciate the talent of the DJ - I can hear what he's doing and how impressive it is to do be doing that on the fly - beat-matching, syncing, applying crossfades, pitch-bending, slapping a low-pass or band-pass filter on a track at just the right time, etc. etc. Some people don't like certain tunes, for instance, because they don't sound cool or sound like "noise", whereas I can appreciate the frequency modulation, sampling, etc. that is being done - the actual "music engineering" if you will. With jazz or funk, there are groups I'll listen to over and over and appreciate drummers for using unconventional patterns, bass players for pulling off amazing riffs, or horn players for coming up with amazing chord progressions. As well as enjoying the tunes and the groups, I truly appreciate and enjoy the music itself whereas some people just like a tune because it's "catchy" or "sounds cool".

But are they not true music lovers? Of course not, they love music as well. :cool:

I could go on and on, but I hope you see where I'm coming from, and I hope this clarifies things a little. So don't worry about "stomping on my post". ;)

[Steamboatwillie]

Besides, I still think the 3G looks better than the 4G! :p

I'm with you on that. I still feel the mechanical buttons on the mini & 4g is a step backwards. I love my 3g 20gb

[Kodex]

I was having major crashing problems and kernal panics with my new 1.8 Ghz G5. Everything checked out ok. Disconnected my iSight 8 days ago have been up and running with no problem since, I think that apple may have some work to do on those iSights still ive heard a lot of people are having issues with them.

[jxyama]

the ipod mini was never supposed to have shuffle, or multiple on-the-go playlists, or any of the new features just added. and the ipod mini and 3G are from the same time period.

fyi, mini has had shuffle feature right from the beginning. the thing is that you had to go into settings to turn it on. only thing this update did was to enable an option to have that right in the top most menu...

also, 3G came out in april/may 2003. mini came out jan. 2004. not really the same time period... mini is right between the 3G and 4G...

[~Shard~]

I'm with you on that. I still feel the mechanical buttons on the mini & 4g is a step backwards. I love my 3g 20gb

My girlfriend made the same comment the other day when we werein Best Buy, looking at the new 4G model (we have a 3G model.) She said that she liked the look and feel of our 3G better, and I had to agree somewhat (without sounding too biased of course!) One thing that is for certain though, I have no regrets about having a 3G and not a 4G, and I'll probably love my 3G just as much even when the 5G comes out. :cool:

[rdas7]

I'm with you on that. I still feel the mechanical buttons on the mini & 4g is a step backwards. I love my 3g 20gb

Mechanical buttons? Are you referring to the way the click wheel actually bends/warps to affect a button press? Every iPod has always had a mechanical interface: the button in the center of the wheel. I believe it's actually a step forward to incorporate all of the controls around a circle, as you no longer have to take the iPod out of your pocket to press ffwd/rewind/play/menu (as on the 3G's you had to look before pressing a button, seeing as they were touch sensitive).

Not to mention the fact that Apple managed to devise a touch-sensitive mechanism that calculates circular motion (and acceleration!) on a thin layer of plastic that warps (bends, for key presses). Now *that's* cool!

I've been hanging out for this update ever since I heard the rumor of it! w00t - this rocks the mainline.

See y'all in Regents St. tomorrow morning, bright and early ;)

R.

[stcanard]

Actually it is, my apologies, as that wasn't my intent at all. Now that I read that, it does kind of come across that way. All I was actually meaning was that due to my background, I can really appreciate music to its fullest - I didn't mean to say others cannot.

I'll tell you the problem I have with people saying they "would never buy online music until it's provided in a lossless format".

You've been buying music in a lossy format for over a decade. The sampling done to make a CD is lossy, and can introduce some awful harmonics. Fortunately it's too subtle for most people to notice.

The TTL circuits that are probably used in your amp / stereo system (unless you have vacuum tubes) are lossy. They are again sampling and reconstituting the music, creating some awful harmonics.

Heck, odds are the amp used when recording the music was digital. Guess what?

It's not a question of "lossy" vs. "lossless". Everything we are sold is lossy. Walk into a music store and buy a CD, it's encoded in a lossy format. That's okay though, because even if it wasn't your amp will re-encode into a lossy format.

The question is how much are you willing to accept, based on the style of music you listen to and how well attuned your ear is to specific harmonics?

[wrldwzrd89]

I'll tell you the problem I have with people saying they "would never buy online music until it's provided in a lossless format".

You've been buying music in a lossy format for over a decade. The sampling done to make a CD is lossy, and can introduce some awful harmonics. Fortunately it's too subtle for most people to notice.

The TTL circuits that are probably used in your amp / stereo system (unless you have vacuum tubes) are lossy. They are again sampling and reconstituting the music, creating some awful harmonics.

Heck, odds are the amp used when recording the music was digital. Guess what?

It's not a question of "lossy" vs. "lossless". Everything we are sold is lossy. Walk into a music store and buy a CD, it's encoded in a lossy format. That's okay though, because even if it wasn't your amp will re-encode into a lossy format.

The question is how much are you willing to accept, based on the style of music you listen to and how well attuned your ear is to specific harmonics?
I had no idea that "losslessness" as far as digital music is concerned is somewhat of a misnomer. I'll be sure to pass this on.

[yg17]

just installed the firmware update on my dual 1.8 with no problems and have the iPod firmware update downloading now

[~Shard~]

I'll tell you the problem I have with people saying they "would never buy online music until it's provided in a lossless format".

...



:confused: I never said that - I think you have me confused with someone else. At least quote Aiden or somebody else who actually made a comment somewhat referring to this. All I ever commented on was more along the lines of "music appreciation", etc. (see my my lengthy post above) and all I ever implied (not even stated!) along your lines was that I can tell the difference between audio CDs, live music, etc. and compressed MP3s, AAC versions of the former. :cool:

[~Shard~]

... And so there's no confusion, I understand where you're coming from. :)

[LaMerVipere]

Now my mini has all the useful menu features of the 4G iPods. :D

[jeffgarden]

so does this mean i can use my mini with the Belkin accessory that lets you dump digital camera pictures into it ? the media reader thing ?

does it have the "import photos" option ?

[jxyama]

I'll tell you the problem I have with people saying they "would never buy online music until it's provided in a lossless format".

You've been buying music in a lossy format for over a decade. The sampling done to make a CD is lossy, and can introduce some awful harmonics. Fortunately it's too subtle for most people to notice.

The TTL circuits that are probably used in your amp / stereo system (unless you have vacuum tubes) are lossy. They are again sampling and reconstituting the music, creating some awful harmonics.

Heck, odds are the amp used when recording the music was digital. Guess what?

It's not a question of "lossy" vs. "lossless". Everything we are sold is lossy. Walk into a music store and buy a CD, it's encoded in a lossy format. That's okay though, because even if it wasn't your amp will re-encode into a lossy format.

The question is how much are you willing to accept, based on the style of music you listen to and how well attuned your ear is to specific harmonics?

i think it's a bit misleading to lump the sampling loss or reconstruction loss (two examples you mentioned) with frequency-based compression losses, such as AAC/mp3 encoding.

there are subjective measures on how the frequency-based compression algorithms decide which frequency to discard - based mostly on psycho-acoustic studies.

[stcanard]

... And so there's no confusion, I understand where you're coming from. :)

Thanks, and sorry! I got lost in all the whining about 3G and misattrbuted an opinion. Normally I try to read a thread I'm in carefully, but this one I've been skimming trying to avoid my pet peeves.

[stcanard]

i think it's a bit misleading to lump the sampling loss or reconstruction loss (two examples you mentioned) with frequency-based compression losses, such as AAC/mp3 encoding.

I don't think so. They are both attempting to achieve the same effect. Reducing the amount of information so that it can be effectively stored in a digital medium.

The difference is that they take different approaches: AAC/mp3 encoding tried to take away frequencies that won't be heard/noticed by the human ear. Sampling for CD's does it buy introducing frequencies without regard to the listener, and trying to minimize it.

there are subjective measures on how the frequency-based compression algorithms decide which frequency to discard - based mostly on psycho-acoustic studies.

Precisely. The frequency based compression is attempting to discard frequencies that will have minimal affect based on our knowledge of human signal detection.

Sampling frequency loss is purely mathematical formula, and can introduce distortions what we are much more sensitive to.

But it is very disingenious to try and claim that CD's are encoded "lossless". There is a huge amount of frequency information lost during the encoding. Most people have decided they can accept that. The vast majority don't even realize it's happening.

Same thing with MP3/AAC/WMP. I say again, it's not about "lossless" vs "lossy" it's all about how much and what type of loss you are willing to accept. That depends entirely on your hearing and type of music.

There's the same issue in video. After a couple of years of evaluating the quality of video encoding and decoding, NTSC TV sets drive me insane. The vast majority of them cannot properly decode the boundary between two primary colours (the opening sequence of Start Trek TNG is a good example of this outside of the artificial colour bar screen).

Almost nobody else that I watch TV with notices.

[AidenShaw]

I'll tell you the problem I have with people saying they "would never buy online music until it's provided in a lossless format".

You're right - I should have explicitly said that I consider the losses in a CD to be acceptable (as if there were a real choice in the matter).

I don't want to pay for music that's worse than a CD - which was obviously my point even though it wasn't explicitly stated.

If a better format (say 96KHz/24-bit) becomes common - that's what I'd want to download as well.

My position is not based on having perfect hearing or acute sensibilities - it's based on protecting my investment from becoming obsolete. I compress to 235Kbps VBR for the library on my laptop - with most music that's good enough that I can't hear annoying artifacts and small enough that I can keep plenty of music with me.

With the lossless originals, however, I can always re-encode with a newer, better codec and the result will be better than my previous compressed version.

You can't improve a lossy source by recompressing it, however...so if you buy lossy you're stuck with lossy.

[jxyama]

You're right - I should have explicitly said that I consider the losses in a CD to be acceptable (as if there were a real choice in the matter).

i guess that's the point i wanted to get at... currently, the standard for the most consumers are set by the CD. yes, CD is "lossy" compared to theoretical perfect music re-production, i guess...

i think it's borderline nitpicking to start from the theoretical perfect music re-production... whenever we talk about lossy/lossless, i think we pretty much start from CD/AIFF...

i don't even know if there's a way to quantify the lossy-ness of CD production. right now, AIFF hovers around 10 MB/min. mp3/aac hovers around 1 MB/min. that's an order of magnitude compression. if theoretical perfect music was on the order of 100 MB/min or more, then i can see how CD is just as "lossy" as mp3/aac is compared to AIFF, relatively speaking, but i don't know if this is even a sensible discussion... the question is, have we ever had access to anywhere near such theoretical limit? i don't think so - we all know even live performance isn't perfect... so what's the point of starting from there?

sampling rate for CD, 44 MHz, i think was chosen to be the upper edge of the human hearing? i'm not sure. but it's a lot less subjective, i feel, than removing frequencies we aren't "supposed to be able" to hear. anyway, just my opinion. i feel like more "ordinary" people can hear the loss due to mp3/aac codecs than can due to encoding of the CD. in that sense, i'm not sure if you can lump those two together and say "we never have lossless anyway so what's the complaint?"

[beatle888]

clicker sound through headphone is a nice touch for the mini - wanted that since the beginning...

by the way, 3G owners complaining... you don't have to get over anything. if these minute (imo) improvements in mini and 4G but not 3G mean *that* much to you - so much that all the reasons you bought an iPod from apple to begin with go out the window - remember this in a few years and don't bother buying another apple product.

$$$ speaks louder to apple than any complaints you can log at MR...


3G ipods arent broken jxyama. what would they be protesting, apple not constantly upgrading the features of their old products? sounds like a rebel without a cause, or otherwise known as immaturity.

[jxyama]

3G ipods arent broken jxyama. what would they be protesting, apple not constantly upgrading the features of their old products? sounds like a rebel without a cause, or otherwise known as immaturity.

what? :confused: (what i was saying in the post you quoted is that if being "left behind" in the iPod update cycle is such a big deal for 3G owners, and apple has been doing this for quite a while now - ex. when 3G came out and there were updates, 1/2G owners were left behind - then they would do well to remember that apple does this and not buy their products instead of ranting about it at MR...) (which is basically a twisted way of saying, the update is not a big deal, older users being left behind is nothing new, so get over it. :p )

[jxyama]

one more thing i noticed with the mini update... the mini no longer wakes up when you plug in the headphone...

[Geetar]

. yes, CD is "lossy" compared to theoretical perfect music re-production, i guess...



There is no proof that has stood up to a double-blind test to date that will reliably show red Book 44.1 KHz to be lossy in terms of discarded audible material, when combined with upsampling A/D/As that have been common tech for some time now....you could perhaps point to some studies from the last few years that back this contention up..?

[~Shard~]

There is no proof that has stood up to a double-blind test to date that will reliably show red Book 44.1 KHz to be lossy in terms of discarded audible material, when combined with upsampling A/D/As that have been common tech for some time now....you could perhaps point to some studies from the last few years that back this contention up..?

I'd actually be fairly interested to see something like that. Might even do a search on my own, I alwaysf ind things like that fascinating...

[BWhaler]

This is a great update for the mini. Adds some new excitement back into a product I bought some time ago.

I hope we see a bump in January for the mini. The 5gig drive would be nice, but it's not what I am waiting for. I really want a 12-15 hour battery life. (For those long flights overseas.)

[iRez]

Commence Rant......Apple not updating the 3rd gen iPod is like them not allowing Panther to run on machines sold two years ago because they're not the current machine being sold. How would you guys feel if you spent hard earned cash on a dual G4 tower a year ago and found out that Tiger won't be able to work with your machine. That's just ignorant of the owners of the new iPods, I bought a piece of hardware and if it could be updated then they should update it, I wouldn't even care if Apple would charge for the update......Cease Rant.

[stcanard]

Apple not updating the 3rd gen iPod is like them not allowing Panther to run on machines sold two years ago because they're not the current machine being sold.

Oh, I was unaware that the current crop of songs being sold on iTunes wouldn't play on a 3G anymore. Sorry. In that case I agree entirely.

Sarcasm aside, it's acutally more like Jaguar users complaining they haven't backported expose from Panther (wanting the features of the new firmware).

Or it's like Powerbook users complaining that Apple refuses to port the new 64 bit G5 optimizations to their G4's (complaining about missing features while completely ignoring that it's different hardware with different capabilities).

[pianojoe]

There is no proof that has stood up to a double-blind test to date that will reliably show red Book 44.1 KHz to be lossy in terms of discarded audible material, when combined with upsampling A/D/As that have been common tech for some time now....you could perhaps point to some studies from the last few years that back this contention up..?

Come over to my recording studio. This one's easy to prove.

[CubaTBird]

i think the majority of ipod users, pc and mac, have the 3rd genners though... i think that was the model that really helped the ipod sky-rocket into tons of sales

[pounce]

Come over to my recording studio. This one's easy to prove.

agreed, and seconded. when you spend all day working on higher quality audio, and then you knock it down to 16 bit for a cd it's a difference. and don't even get me started about how ****** mp3's sound. really it's not hard to hear the difference. no papers are needed, just listen and it's right there.

ps: i am getting an ipod photo for xmas. looking forward to it.

[~Shard~]

agreed, and seconded. when you spend all day working on higher quality audio, and then you knock it down to 16 bit for a cd it's a difference. and don't even get me started about how ****** mp3's sound. really it's not hard to hear the difference. no papers are needed, just listen and it's right there.

ps: i am getting an ipod photo for xmas. looking forward to it.

Yep - my ears hate MP3s... ;) :cool:

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Of the three last iPod updates before this one, 3.0, 3.0.1 and 3.0.2, only one of them (cant remember which) actually updated the mini (from 1.0 to 1.1).

Now we gotten our long awaited version 1.2, and, maybe sadly, this time they hadn't anything to upgrade on the 3G. So what? You still have an iPod that should perform better than it did when it was new, due to earlier updates.

Since many has complained, I just have to rub it in: Has anybody else with minis noticed an improvement in batterylife after upgrading to 1.2? When my mini was new, back in February, I could barely get 7 hours of continuous playback. Yesterday, after installing 1.2 and letting it get a full charge the night before, it played happily on for excactly 9 - nine! - hours straight. Is that great improvment or what?!?

[Geetar]

Come over to my recording studio. This one's easy to prove.

The thing is that proper filter design, which has been the general stumbling block at lower sampling rates, is not throwing back aliased images into the audible band- oversampling takes care of the need to write a steep filter beginning at the top of the hearing range (let's assume that is around 20 KHz) and ending at 22.05KHz (half the sampling max of 44.1 KHz, as per Nyquist). Unless you have gear that is cost-limited into poor filter and power-supplydesign, that is. If you doubt me, go to:

www.lavryengineering.com/index_flash.html

and read the relevant white papers. Dan Lavry is correct in his application of theory to the practical engineering of A/D/A chains, and puts none of the usual marketing bull into his products. Nor do Weiss, dCs, Prism or Benchmark. I'll concede that there are arguments to raise the sampling rate to, say, 65 KHz, but it probably won't be for reasons provable in your studio :D

Oh, by the way, good to see you over here, Mr. Pounce, sir.

[uv23]

Shuffle is completely useless. Wow, I can randomly listen to 488 songs on my iPod Mini. Great, there's nothing I like hearing more than jarring hard drum & bass followed by ambient then shoegazer. How about a shuffle feature within playlists? That I'd actually use, and use often. Gah.

[mfacey]

Shuffle is completely useless. Wow, I can randomly listen to 488 songs on my iPod Mini. Great, there's nothing I like hearing more than jarring hard drum & bass followed by ambient then shoegazer. How about a shuffle feature within playlists? That I'd actually use, and use often. Gah.


As far as I know that's already possible! You just start your playlist, then go to settings and switch on Shuffle Songs. That should do the trick. I'm pretty sure I've done that on my friend's 4G.

[uv23]

As far as I know that's already possible! You just start your playlist, then go to settings and switch on Shuffle Songs. That should do the trick. I'm pretty sure I've done that on my friend's 4G.
You sir are a genius! Either that or I'm an idiot. I'm willing to accept either explanation. :)

[jxyama]

Shuffle is completely useless. Wow, I can randomly listen to 488 songs on my iPod Mini. Great, there's nothing I like hearing more than jarring hard drum & bass followed by ambient then shoegazer. How about a shuffle feature within playlists? That I'd actually use, and use often. Gah.

by the way, i know you found the other desired use, but i find shuffle mode to be awesome. i've "distilled" my collection of music down to about 750 songs on my mini - and all the songs i really like and "know." so just letting mini play one at random has been great - it's fun not knowing what's next, but knowing that i'd at least recognize the song. brings back randomized memory of my life when the song was popular.

[Wonder Boy]

i'm always disapointed when my 3g iPod doesn't get a software update. for some reason i hope for a performance improvement. but then it dawns on me that there is nothing wrong with my ipod's performance. everything is fine.

[~Shard~]

i'm always disapointed when my 3g iPod doesn't get a software update. for some reason i hope for a performance improvement. but then it dawns on me that there is nothing wrong with my ipod's performance. everything is fine.

Exactly - our 3G iPods are perfect and do not require any updates, unlike those 4G iPods Apple seems to keep releasing updates for... Ah, I'm glad I'm a 3G owner - the best iPod out there... ;) :cool:

[theROZ]

HEY, I just installed the firmware on my fab 2.5 and 6800 nvidia machine and wow what a difference!!!! before the fans were rev like nuts and now...sweet silence...I love you APPLE

[chimerical]

I don't really mind if we 3G iPod owners don't get any more updates. But if we're not getting any more updates, I'd like the 3G iPod software available by itself (instead of in a huge package of all existing iPod software) because some people are still on dial-up, and it would save Apple bandwidth costs.

[Jaz]

HEY, I just installed the firmware on my fab 2.5 and 6800 nvidia machine and wow what a difference!!!! before the fans were rev like nuts and now...sweet silence...I love you APPLE

Seconded.

I changed to a 6800 last week and could hear a lot more fan noise. Applied the firmware just now and it is much quieter (both 6800 and G5). It's back to what it was like with the 9600 I had in there before.

[jared_kipe]

I wonder why this only affects the after june G5s, I've had some troubles with my fans.

[devwild]

I am a 3G owner, and I don't appreciate the people bashing 3G owners because they want an update. "It works the way you bought it" isn't really a valid arguement.

When you buy similar products from other manufacturers, especially at this price point, you tend to get firmware updates and minor feature improvements on a regular basis for at least 2-3 years. Apple however does not take this stance with their products, and tends to ignore past products unless an update is absolutely critical. This is one of my biggest gripes with Apple's customer practices and the key reason why, once my G5 no longer serves its purpose, I will probably be done with Apple products (aside from iTunes). I should not have to spend hundreds of dollars with third parties to make my - already very expensive - desktop live up to its basic promises of functionality. Most Apple diehards are, but that's just not my way. And yes, charging full price for a point release of OSX every year, especially when you immediately drop most support for the previous release, is even crazier than Microsoft's practices.

The 3G iPod is by far the most prevalent peice of Apple hardware in the wild these days. I see half a dozen people carrying them on the bus every day. I've only ever seen one 4G, and a couple of the old mechanical ones. And then there's the minis. It's visibly obvious which generation of iPod took Apple's market penetration through the roof (and like it or not, primarilly due to Windows compatibility).

All these new customers deserve a little appreciation from Apple, especially since they all shelled out $250-500 within the last 18 months (most within the last year). The rediculous placement of the shuffle function is one of my biggest gripes about the iPod (second only to the useless remote, take a tip from Sony folks and learn how to design a remote). No, it doesn't make the iPod useless, but it's downright silly, and if they can fix it easilly in software, which we assume they can since even the older iPods got games added after-market via firmware, then they should do it. It's as simple as that.

Apple is so obsessed with the future (not a bad thing, they make awesome progress in design and technology, or at least copy in a way that actually works) that they leave their past customers in the dust and that isn't going to keep the customer around - especially those switching from manufacturers who have treated them kinder. It's proven to bite me in the arse, and it will others. Business customers switching to Apple are still in for a major shock compared to Dell/HP/IBM/Gateway/MPC.

If you think we're just a bunch of whiners, that's fine. But the important part to Apple is that we are their customers. Bicker all you want folks, that's the only way Apple will ever take the time to look over its shoulder.

[Mac-Xpert]

I wonder why this only affects the after june G5s, I've had some troubles with my fans.This probably has to do with the fact that the "after june" G5s (also known as the Rev B's) use the 970FX on the 90nm process, rather than the earlier machines that used the normal 970 at the 130nm process. I think Apple might have been a little conservative with the Rev B's cooling to make sure that the 970FX would not overheat. It might be that they now realized that and changed the fan behavior in order to limit the fan noise.

I haven't updated my G5 yet, because the firmware update requires at least 10.3.5 and I'm still running 10.3.4. With all the troubles people had with the 10.3.6 update, I'm a little worried about updating to 10.3.6. now. But I would sure like to have a little less noisy G5 on any other setting than the "reduced" mode.

[wrldwzrd89]

I am a 3G owner, and I don't appreciate the people bashing 3G owners because they want an update. "It works the way you bought it" isn't really a valid arguement.

When you buy similar products from other manufacturers, especially at this price point, you tend to get firmware updates and minor feature improvements on a regular basis for at least 2-3 years. Apple however does not take this stance with their products, and tends to ignore past products unless an update is absolutely critical. This is one of my biggest gripes with Apple's customer practices and the key reason why, once my G5 no longer serves its purpose, I will probably be done with Apple products (aside from iTunes). I should not have to spend hundreds of dollars with third parties to make my - already very expensive - desktop live up to its basic promises of functionality. Most Apple diehards are, but that's just not my way. And yes, charging full price for a point release of OSX every year, especially when you immediately drop most support for the previous release, is even crazier than Microsoft's practices.

The 3G iPod is by far the most prevalent peice of Apple hardware in the wild these days. I see half a dozen people carrying them on the bus every day. I've only ever seen one 4G, and a couple of the old mechanical ones. And then there's the minis. It's visibly obvious which generation of iPod took Apple's market penetration through the roof (and like it or not, primarilly due to Windows compatibility).

All these new customers deserve a little appreciation from Apple, especially since they all shelled out $250-500 within the last 18 months (most within the last year). The rediculous placement of the shuffle function is one of my biggest gripes about the iPod (second only to the useless remote, take a tip from Sony folks and learn how to design a remote). No, it doesn't make the iPod useless, but it's downright silly, and if they can fix it easilly in software, which we assume they can since even the older iPods got games added after-market via firmware, then they should do it. It's as simple as that.

Apple is so obsessed with the future (not a bad thing, they make awesome progress in design and technology, or at least copy in a way that actually works) that they leave their past customers in the dust and that isn't going to keep the customer around - especially those switching from manufacturers who have treated them kinder. It's proven to bite me in the arse, and it will others. Business customers switching to Apple are still in for a major shock compared to Dell/HP/IBM/Gateway/MPC.

If you think we're just a bunch of whiners, that's fine. But the important part to Apple is that we are their customers. Bicker all you want folks, that's the only way Apple will ever take the time to look over its shoulder.
You make some great points there, devwild. Maybe all of us should let Apple know what we think of their policies.

[slu]

I am surprised to see all the Shuffle bashing.

I have a 4G 20GB and the only feature I ever use is shuffle. The thing is always on shuffle. I have no playlists at all. 3800 song shuffle is awesome. If I am not in mood for a certain song, I skip it.

[ASP272]

Any update that makes the computer more reliable is not to be questioned by me, but it would be nice to know what it's doing! :confused:

[Jaz]

Seconded.

I changed to a 6800 last week and could hear a lot more fan noise. Applied the firmware just now and it is much quieter (both 6800 and G5). It's back to what it was like with the 9600 I had in there before.

A follow up.

For some reason from a Start or Restart the 6800 fan runs quiet. However when you sleep and wake the machine it runs loud again. Not effective at all. The G5 fans are better, spiking a lot less under simple load spikes such as loading secure pages in Safari or general app launches.

OT. I have noticed some graphical glitches in Motion with this card. Couple that with the barely improved benchmarks and it's safe to say the drivers need a lot of work by Apple. Don't blame Nvidia, they state that they supply source code to Apple who then write the drivers themselves. The blame for this one lies squarely on Apple.

[Detlev_73]

I just came home from school to my G5's fans running full blast! What the heck!? A business card got stuck to the front grill from the fans' powerful action.

Anyone else experience this after this update?

[Jaz]

I just came home from school to my G5's fans running full blast! What the heck!? A business card got stuck to the front grill from the fans' powerful action.

Anyone else experience this after this update?

I haven't, only had full throttle under heavy rendering loads or hardware tests.

My machine runs all day and sometimes all night when rendering. It was on last night and it was fine, I did the firmware update yesterday morning and ran all day too.

[stcanard]

When you buy similar products from other manufacturers, especially at this price point, you tend to get firmware updates and minor feature improvements on a regular basis for at least 2-3 years.

This is an honest question -- what consumer electronic products do you get regular firmware updates on?

I've been trying to think about this, and the only one I get pushed to me is the iPod.

My cell phone has had some updates, purely bug fixes or features that were promised but not delivered, but my provider has not actually released any to me.

My wireless router is the same. I've gotten updates from their site, but it's purely bug fixes not new features.

I've certainly never gotten firmware updates for my stereo, vcr, or dvd player (the dvd player is running a hacked firmware, but that's another matter).

My PS2 has never gotten one. Ditto for my digital camera.

What does get regular updates, to add new features? I can't come up with a single item.

[chimerical]

So the issue now is not why Apple doesn't release firmware updates for 3g iPods, but rather, whether we can convince them to do so with enough requests. Commence the requests! (to Apple, not MacRumors). It's probably unlikely, but it's worth a try. Maybe with enough requests, they'll change their minds.

[kingtj]

I, too, am a 3G iPod owner ... and sure, I kept hoping maybe I'd get some cool new feature with one of these updaters, and found out I didn't each time. Still, I hardly think this sort of thing justifies a stance of "I'm not buying an Apple product next time around!" ??

On the contrary, firmware updates have always been a bit risky, and the "rule of thumb" you hear from most computer professionals is "Unless the update addresses a problem you're actually experiencing, don't do the flash upgrade."

If a firmware update fails for whatever reason (say, a power outage while it's in the middle of updating), you can easily end up with a useless paperweight.

On the PC/Windows side of computing, firmware updates come annoyingly often, usually because either A) Microsoft is changing around low-level functions in Windows *again* and breaking compatibility with existing products, or B) advances in technology such as larger-sized IDE hard drives force PCs to get newer firmware or else be left behind. A recent Dell laptop I worked on was on the 23rd. revision of its firmware when I checked it!!

Apple products just don't run into this nearly as often, because Apple controls both the hardware and the software on them. They aren't worried about ensuring their box accepts one of 800,000 possible expansion cards out there. They pretty much dictate the hardware's specs AND sell most of the peripherals that will likely ever get used with it. The others either get built to the specs Apple puts forth, or they just don't work (EG. some of these firewire hubs that G5's are frying!).

If you buy a piece of electronics of ANY type, you should do so based on the features offered at the time it's purchased. There are never any guarantees a manufacturer will keep updating/improving the product. Sure, most do for 2 or 3 years - but many don't... or else they do, but never really address specific irritating issues they promised they'd deal with back when you first bought the item.


I am a 3G owner, and I don't appreciate the people bashing 3G owners because they want an update. "It works the way you bought it" isn't really a valid arguement.

When you buy similar products from other manufacturers, especially at this price point, you tend to get firmware updates and minor feature improvements on a regular basis for at least 2-3 years. Apple however does not take this stance with their products, and tends to ignore past products unless an update is absolutely critical. This is one of my biggest gripes with Apple's customer practices and the key reason why, once my G5 no longer serves its purpose, I will probably be done with Apple products (aside from iTunes). I should not have to spend hundreds of dollars with third parties to make my - already very expensive - desktop live up to its basic promises of functionality. Most Apple diehards are, but that's just not my way. And yes, charging full price for a point release of OSX every year, especially when you immediately drop most support for the previous release, is even crazier than Microsoft's practices.

The 3G iPod is by far the most prevalent peice of Apple hardware in the wild these days. I see half a dozen people carrying them on the bus every day. I've only ever seen one 4G, and a couple of the old mechanical ones. And then there's the minis. It's visibly obvious which generation of iPod took Apple's market penetration through the roof (and like it or not, primarilly due to Windows compatibility).

If you think we're just a bunch of whiners, that's fine. But the important part to Apple is that we are their customers. Bicker all you want folks, that's the only way Apple will ever take the time to look over its shoulder.

[devwild]

I, too, am a 3G iPod owner ... and sure, I kept hoping maybe I'd get some cool new feature with one of these updaters, and found out I didn't each time. Still, I hardly think this sort of thing justifies a stance of "I'm not buying an Apple product next time around!" ??

This was in reference to seperate experiences, not in reference to just the iPod, and certainly not in reference to just firmware updates. And I'm not threatenning Apple, I'm just saying I will choose the product that will best suit me, and at the moment, I don't think Apple will be an effective use of my money in the future. Maybe it will be anyways.

Quite frankly, I'm considering selling my iPod now, but it has nothing to do with the product itself, it's just that I carry my PDA (with 1GB memory card and some mp3s) with me all the time, and the iPod is an extra weight/bulk I don't really need, so I tend to choose not to carry it with me. It's a lot of investment for something I don't use a whole lot. My choice would be the same with a Dell DJ, or a Rio, or whatever.

On the PC/Windows side of computing, firmware updates come annoyingly often, usually because either A) Microsoft is changing around low-level functions in Windows *again* and breaking compatibility with existing products, or B) advances in technology such as larger-sized IDE hard drives force PCs to get newer firmware or else be left behind. A recent Dell laptop I worked on was on the 23rd. revision of its firmware when I checked it!!

I am a Windows sysadmin (please, don't shoot), and I have to say that 1) most people, especially Mac users, blow this issue way out of proportion. I use home-brew systems for my PCs, and I rarely have to do firmware updates, unless, as you said above, absolutely needed. Stuff like updating my server to support a 200GB drive (no different from upgrading an old iMac or G3 to support OSX).

Quite frankly, most support techs don't help the world vision of Windows computers because they are morons, and break everything before thinking a problem through. Also, outsourcing sucks. :rolleyes:

Apple products just don't run into this nearly as often, because Apple controls both the hardware and the software on them. They aren't worried about ensuring their box accepts one of 800,000 possible expansion cards out there. They pretty much dictate the hardware's specs AND sell most of the peripherals that will likely ever get used with it. The others either get built to the specs Apple puts forth, or they just don't work (EG. some of these firewire hubs that G5's are frying!).

Yes, and if and when more third party hardware is available for Macs, the same issues will exist. It's kind of like the virus arguement, the benefit is partly because Microsoft/Intel/AMD is the big boy on the market. And I find it hard to argue that Apple keeping current model video cards from their machines is a good thing. Certainly Macrumors members have done their share of griping about that on these forums.

This issue is also a detriment to Macs. While my gigantic tower of a G5 has nice internal expandibility, and despite being the second generation of the machine, the pickings to actually use the internal slots is very slim. I was saddened to find that there is only one PCI TV card I could use in my G5 (Alchemy TV), and after getting it, found it couldn't hold a candle to the cheaper Hauppage PVR250 I use in my PVR box - Hardware or software wise. (Personal opinion of course, but the MPEG4 recordings are larger and worse quality than the hardware MPEG2 recordings of the PVR250).

So it's a good thing/bad thing. Like most of these arguements, it pretty much comes to a stalemate. Or we'll just argue about it till our faces turn blue.

If you buy a piece of electronics of ANY type, you should do so based on the features offered at the time it's purchased. There are never any guarantees a manufacturer will keep updating/improving the product. Sure, most do for 2 or 3 years - but many don't... or else they do, but never really address specific irritating issues they promised they'd deal with back when you first bought the item.

I totally agree on purchasing suggestions. And I always do. But Apple touts themselves has having great service and support, however, in my opinion, they don't live up to it by ignoring past products after 6 months when a new product is released. This is *not* typical from the companies I generally choose to buy from, most importantly considering the price point.

Sure there are many companies that don't care about their customers. And they tend to lose them. Apple is a different market and a different following, so the rules are different.

But not for me, I love OSX, but I also think Windows XP does the job nicely, and like playing with linux and BSD, and I buy my hardware carefully, sticking to brands that have given me great products from the start, with good service and support after. At home I will work on any platform that suits my needs, right now that is an OSX G5 and a Windows XP Dell laptop. Tomorrow that could change, maybe to another Windows PC, maybe to a Powerbook (after they offer more than one mouse button ;) )

I'm just voicing my own opinions here, ignore me as you see fit.

*dev stops babbling

[Crunchy]

All these new customers deserve a little appreciation from Apple, especially since they all shelled out $250-500 within the last 18 months (most within the last year). The rediculous placement of the shuffle function is one of my biggest gripes about the iPod (second only to the useless remote, take a tip from Sony folks and learn how to design a remote). No, it doesn't make the iPod useless, but it's downright silly, and if they can fix it easilly in software, which we assume they can since even the older iPods got games added after-market via firmware, then they should do it. It's as simple as that.

Being an owner of a 1G (5 gig) iPod (going on three years now, hard to believe), I find posts like this kinda funny. But my question is: are there any new *features* that the iPod has gotten since 1G that are *serious* (aside maybe from photo showing)? Sure, the capacity has gone up, and now you can get a dock, and there are peripherals mine can't use. But still: these all do exactly what their main purpose is: take playlists from iTunes and play them.

The feature I'm waiting for is a wireless connection to my stereo, either directly from the songs on the iPod, or from iTunes. A remote without a way of scanning through my 25,000 songs isn't really that valuable. Once they add this, then it's digital music dreamland: Airport Express in every room, streaming (hopefully different someday) songs into each room, controlled remotely. Someday this will happen...and then I'll move from my 1G to a new iPod.

[cmvsm]

I installed it tonight despite some of the bad news posts that I've seen. The update went perfect and the G5 even showed its tongue in and out at the end. Not sure what all the hubbub is about, but it's a green light as far as I'm concerned.

I was thinking that maybe some users with Rev. A (pre June 2004) G5's were installing this thing and its not meant for those machines. Might be where all the trouble is coming from.

I also installed the latest 10.3.6 update and it was just as successful. So just get it done!! :cool:

[Dirty Harry]

:confused: Today my old G4/400 showed through "Software Update" a hard drive firmware update that would let me know if my hard drive (19 GB) needed the update.
It said it did so I installed... and now my G4 won´t boot. All I get is this white page where I can write in Unix to boot or quit. If I try
to boot I get the starting mac os folder icon toggling between a question mark and a happy Mac back and forth but will never boot. If I quit the Mac shuts down
and If i reboot back to the white page and so on... Any thing I could do before I try to reinstall the whole system from the DVD drive?
I hate this: you plan a working day on your computer something happens and all day is wasted!

Thank you!