Do you use a virus protection program?

iDAG said:

I remember when I used a PC for the first time in seventh grade I asked that question because I used Macs my whole life. With a Mac there is no need for protection.

Click to expand...

Well, unless you're still in high school, that was a bit of an overstatement.

Macs running pre-OS X definitely had viruses, and I know when I was in high school we had labs full of LC III's, etc. that were just teeming with CDEV, nVIR-B, etc.

But with OS X? Nothing "in the wild" to my knowledge. Surely one day there will be, but for now, no. So I don't use any virus checkers on my Macs.

On my Windows PC at work, IT has various scanners deployed, and my Windows machines at home use... something. My brother installed it, and I just complain about how slow it makes everything. If it were up to me, I wouldn't bother with virus scanners on Windows, either. I'd rely on good old-fashioned firewalls and user smarts, though perhaps this is naive thinking these days.

MacFanJeff said:

However, it's the kind of "Mac Fanboy" syndrome that plagues this topic that proves the points in my first post. Everyone NEEDS virus protection, software firewall and hardware firewalls if they are SERIOUS about not being compromised.

Click to expand...

I agree with you, yet don't. Firewalls are definitely a good idea. Most people nowadays live behind a NAT router. Hardware firewall. Done. Put a tick in that checkbox. OS X runs a built-in software firewall. Done.

But, as several people have already said in this thread, what is the point of a virus scanner on the Mac? What would it scan for? There are no known viruses, no known patterns! What good would this do?

Yes, the Mac isn't "magically" 100% secure just because we would like to think it is. Yes, it most certainly has hardware and software vulnerabilities. Yes, one day there will probably be some Mac viruses. Maybe even some really nasty ones. WHEN THAT DAY COMES, when virus scanning software can store their patterns and scan for those viruses, I will be the first to advocate using it. But until then... what's the point?

It's not fanboyism. It's reality. Running Windows is like living in an inner-city slum where gangs and crime is rampant. Of course you want to lock your doors, because if you don't, you will be targeted, virtually guaranteed. Running a Mac is like living in a neighborhood where the local police have recorded ZERO break-and-enters over the past 50 years, and everyone knows everyone else. A stranger would be immediately seen by half the neighborhood. The doors and windows of these houses have exactly the same vulnerabilities. But would you feel safe leaving your door unlocked to go to the store? Until that very first break-in occurs, I would.

MacFanJeff said:

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you in some of your statements you posted. If you read my post carefully you will find I made mainly the same point as to Mac OS security. However, it's the kind of "Mac Fanboy" syndrome that plagues this topic that proves the points in my first post. Everyone NEEDS virus protection, software firewall and hardware firewalls if they are SERIOUS about not being compromised.

Click to expand...

If your argument requires that you use the term "Mac Fanboy", then you obviously have no argument to speak of.

The biggest problem of PC "experts" who are newbies to other platforms is that they assume that the rest of the computing industry must work the same way as it had on Windows. So when it is pointed out that virus scans on Macs, Linux and Unix systems are pretty much a waste of time (because of the lack of viruses to scan for), this sends them into fits. So while you are still a Mac newbie, I suggest you learn the platform before pretending to be a Mac expert.

As for a virus threat, I'm sure that the first time that there is an actual threat it'll make the headlines of most news outlets. And (more importantly) no existing Anti-Virus program will have any way of detecting that first Mac virus anyways, so it is no better than hunting with a gun that has no bullets.

Of course one would hope that a PC expert would understand this, as one of the biggest problems in PC Anti-Virus software is new viruses that don't match the database of known types within that software. But if Anti-Virus software was actually able to stop these unknown viruses, then Anti-Virus software companies would include a guarantee with their product.

MacFanJeff said:

trainguy77 -

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you in some of your statements you posted. If you read my post carefully you will find I made mainly the same point as to Mac OS security. However, it's the kind of "Mac Fanboy" syndrome that plagues this topic that proves the points in my first post. Everyone NEEDS virus protection, software firewall and hardware firewalls if they are SERIOUS about not being compromised.

As I point out in my first post, there is NO difference in terms of security between Mac, Windows or Linux. They ALL have security issues, it's just a matter of the software coding that executes which takes advantage of a certain platform, OS, etc. Windows is on most home user/consumer PCs, therefore the code is written to exploit those systems the most. All computers, regardless have the SAME security holes that can be exploited given the proper code and tools.

Click to expand...

Yes there is security holes i agree. However virus protections don't stop hackers. Sorry it might stop viruses planted, but since there isn't any viruses out there, and besides if one is created i doubt current virus protection will work until its updated and by that time we will know about it and be able to act accordingly.

MacFanJeff said:

Also I said that rather or not you choose to go to such security measures is a personal choice, but NOT because there is something different between platforms that make you more secure than another.

It's posts like this that further illustrate my original post that proves either Mac users are uneducated on the subject or simply refuse to accept the FACTS. "prosperousyogi" said "We all agree we don't need virus protection, but do you do an occasional scan for spyware?" This is NOT to belittle or point to a single user, only to point out this user is one of many posting on this topic incorrect statements that are not factual.

We certainly do NOT all agree on this because the FACTS fully support my original post. There is no one that can say otherwise if they really know what they are talking about. No one that has ever worked in IT at a company

Click to expand...

Actually as i said i work in IT. I agree you need security, a NAT router is fine for almost all people who are not hosting anything. Yes i would upgrade to something else if i hosted a website with a Mac.

MacFanJeff said:

would ever say some of the statements made in this topic because they know it is not fact. They will tell you the same thing I did and that is it is up to you just how much security you want and to ask yourself one question: "Can I afford to lose all my data on my system even if my attached storage devices are compromised as well?"

Click to expand...

MacFanJeff said:

Notice I bring attached storage into the discussion. That's because any storage device that can "see" your home/office network can be compromised at the same time your main systems are. That would mean not only is your main computers breached or infected but your backup or additional storage too. The ONLY way those devices would NOT be compromised at the same time is if they were not connected to your network the main systems are on and not accessible from any outside connection. This is why many IT security companies run full security scans, connect a storage device/units temporary to make the known GOOD backup, then disconnected from the main network and stored in a fireproof vault. That way should a security breach or infection occur and you had ALL connected devices compromised you can go to the one which is NEVER connected to your main network except when making a known good backup.

Click to expand...

I agree i never argued this. I said i would rather invest in a backup solution then a virus protection until a time when viruses in the wild exist. I would appreciate if you stopped thinking we know nothing and you know everything.

MacFanJeff said:

As I said before, if you make your living from your computer work then there are instances when you can not afford ANY compromise. For example, I work on web site design projects for different companies and can't afford to loose any data. It may take months for a project and most are done via contract. Therefore any loss of data is more than just lost income it is also lost clients. If it means loosing business and many thousands of dollars for security issues then implementing the strongest security you can is a must, not a choice.

I hope some find this useful. The purpose is NOT to make anyone feel bad, only to help educate on the FACTS of security.

Click to expand...

Now we are back to data lose, backups are required yes. Off site backups/extremely secure backups are required for machines that make money yes. This is regardless of security.....But yes your correct the backups would allow us to not need virus protection as there are non in the wild and your data is safe and sound.

No hard feelings?

Never used AV on my mac at all.

notjustjay said:

Macs running pre-OS X definitely had viruses, and I know when I was in high school we had labs full of LC III's, etc. that were just teeming with CDEV, nVIR-B, etc.

Click to expand...

This is very true. Way back, when I had a PowerMac 8500/120 it somehow got a virus (I don't remember what it was called some sort of poison or something). It actually corrupted my system folder and had to reformat the drive. That was my 1 and only virus problem.

I had an old version of Norton antivirus software installed on my iMac. One day I discovered the nifty utility called Activity Monitor, and that's when I discovered that the old Norton software was still running, and had been maxing out my processor for who knows how many years! It took some hunting, but I finally found a Norton uninstaller. Good riddance! I recently downloaded a trial version of Intego Virus Barrier, and both my Macs are clean as a bean. I suppose you can't be too safe, but I'm more concerned about spyware than viruses infecting my Macs.

Consultant said:

Unfortunately Macs are different than Windows in terms of security.

You should actually read a thing or two about security before you start calling "Mac users are uneducated"
and resort to reporting wild speculations/ your opinions as facts

Here is some info on windows security.
http://www.techuser.net/winsecurity.html

Click to expand...

I comprehend and understand the various OS systems out there. That article you reference is not related to my posts because either you didn't read my words closely enough or took it out of context. I am fully aware of the difference in OS systems/platforms, but the ARE THE SAME. The security holes may be different, some may be based on a Linux/Unix shell/kernal others may even be hand written and not on the market for consumers. As my post said, nothing special or different in the software/hardware between systems. There are simply different holes and ways others can compromise security means.

I stand by my original post 100% and will put myself up against anyone regarding the statements made being FACT. Also, I would point to my post and have you read it again. It seems like a LOT of "typical" Mac users get very emotional when confronted with anything they don't like or want to hear. What I mean is some did not either read or comprehend my posts. Yes, the current Mac virus scanners are not as good as other platforms such a those on Windows or written for a Lixux/Unix system by IT guys. There is a decent chance that while a new Mac virus could appear without time for the anti-virus companies to react is possible. However, these statements are simply fale:
------------------
trainguy77 -

"...it might stop viruses planted, but since there isn't any viruses out there"

Does anyone not recall the virus out last year that hit several Mac users that some virus companies were quick to jump on and advertise? Yes, you are right, it's not often. Yes, are right, you are at risk with ANY software protection until code is written to protect against it. Yes, perhaps most of us here would avoid something as simple as this virus because of the nature in how it was spread and implemented. Others can crop up anytime and if you want the most security you can get then always use a virus scanner as it is better than nothing.

"However virus protections don't stop hackers. Sorry" Again, I wish some would re-read my posts COMPLETELY and quote me exactly. I don't see anywhere in my posts where I said virus protection will stop hackers. I go on to address the need for BOTH hardware and software firewalls which is where stopping some hackers comes into play. I also address how to make and maintain known good backups off-site which we seem to both agree on there.

"I agree you need security, a NAT router is fine for almost all people who are not hosting anything. Yes i would upgrade to something else if i hosted a website with a Mac."

It's NOT just those hosting something that need to be concerned. If you are in anyway connected to an outside line then you are open to attacks even with a NAT firewall. While it will reduce the greater number of random attempts and you are CORRECT in that it may be fine for "almost all people" it is NOT fine for those of us that can't afford data loss as my last post addressed.

"I said i would rather invest in a backup solution then a virus protection until a time when viruses in the wild exist." Again, that is a matter of personal choice as I have pointed out already in terms of how much security you want to have. You are wrong though in there are some viruses in the wild right now, as mentioned above that one can still be found. Yes, it would be a novice user to get infected with it, but my point is it and a a select few are still around on various adult sites.

-------------------

Some think because I said "Mac Fanboy" my statements are somehow not true. This is in and of itself proven my point for me. One that ignores factual information and is acting as a platform cheerleader is certainly a fan of that platform. I said before, I am platform agnostic. I don't care if it's Apple, Windows or Linux/Unix, I use the hardware/software that I choose to get the results I need for a professional job.

I will not comment more on the issue. My last post said I was trying to educate. Some will take it wrong as a few have already others will see me as smug and thinking I know it all. Also, I will be the first to say that I am always learning new things every day be it computer related or something else in life. If I am wrong for FACT in a certain area then by all means give me FACTUAL EVIDENCE to support it and I will be happy to discuss it with some other IT guys and go from there.

Best of luck to all with your security needs.

MacFanJeff said:

Does anyone not recall the virus out last year that hit several Mac users that some virus companies were quick to jump on and advertise?

Click to expand...

What virus? The existence of such a thing would be major news in the Mac community. Could you give us a link to a report on this.

MacFanJeff said:

Some think because I said "Mac Fanboy" my statements are somehow not true. This is in and of itself proven my point for me. One that ignores factual information and is acting as a platform cheerleader is certainly a fan of that platform. I said before, I am platform agnostic. I don't care if it's Apple, Windows or Linux/Unix, I use the hardware/software that I choose to get the results I need for a professional job.

I will not comment more on the issue. My last post said I was trying to educate. Some will take it wrong as a few have already others will see me as smug and thinking I know it all. Also, I will be the first to say that I am always learning new things every day be it computer related or something else in life. If I am wrong for FACT in a certain area then by all means give me FACTUAL EVIDENCE to support it and I will be happy to discuss it with some other IT guys and go from there.

Click to expand...

If you don't know a platform (and you truly don't seem to know anything about this platform), then you are out of the loop on this type of stuff.

But lets look at this in a logical means... by threat assessment.

To date, since the release of the first Mac OS X product by Apple 9 years ago, I (a professional consultant on Mac and Unix systems for more than 10 years now) have yet to see a single virus for this platform.

In fact, a user of Mac OS X had less of a threat of getting a virus over the last 9 years than they did of getting hit by lightning. And this isn't an idle boast, as a Mac user who was struck by lightning pointed out once.

So here is a question for you... based on threat of lightning striking you (which currently is greater than the threat of you getting a Mac OS X virus), do you put as much time and effort into protecting yourself from lightning as you do from virus attacks on your Mac? A virus attack on your Mac may cost you your data, but being struck by lightning could cost you your life (a consequence significantly higher than data loss in my book).

What steps are you actively taking to protect yourself from lightning? And are they more extensive than the steps you are taking to protect yourself from Mac viruses (which are currently a significantly smaller threat)?

MacFanJeff said:

"...it might stop viruses planted, but since there isn't any viruses out there"

Does anyone not recall the virus out last year that hit several Mac users that some virus companies were quick to jump on and advertise? Yes, you are right, it's not often. Yes, are right, you are at risk with ANY software protection until code is written to protect against it. Yes, perhaps most of us here would avoid something as simple as this virus because of the nature in how it was spread and implemented. Others can crop up anytime and if you want the most security you can get then always use a virus scanner as it is better than nothing.

Click to expand...

http://www.macworld.com/article/49459/2006/02/leapafaq.html

This method of delivery is known as a Trojan horse, because it’s one thing pretending to actually be something else.

Click to expand...

More important, as explained below, this incident doesn’t expose a security hole in the Mac operating system. Rather, it’s a piece of malware that can be easily rebuffed by vigilant Mac users.

Click to expand...

Also now new apps all warn you before opening them, so people couldn't disguise it as a picture anymore.

There are trojans on Mac OS X.

There will always be trojans, on any platform. There simply is no way of preventing someone from writing a malicious program and masquerading it as something it is not. There are security features that help curtail any potential damage such a trojan can do, but in the end, if the end user runs a program and authorizes it to do damage, it will do damage.

There are, however, no self-replicating, self-infecting viruses on Mac OS X.

The trojans have also been largely "proof of concepts" of security flaws that were fairly quickly patched by Apple. There have been very few reports of real Mac OS X users actually being victimized by trojans that caused real damage to their system or their data.

iDAG said:

I remember when I used a PC for the first time in seventh grade I asked that question because I used Macs my whole life. With a Mac there is no need for protection.

Click to expand...

Then you find out your girlfriend is pregnant.

Use protection!

GF: 'Shouldn't we use protection?'
You: 'No hun, I have a Mac, no need to worry'

I have ClamXav installed but i can't remember the last time i even launched it

I don't use AV on my Mac's. I have AVG on my Vista laptop. I also don't surf randomly. I don't download anything on my Mac's besides updates and things off iTunes. I don't download pirated anything, don't load images in email unless I know the sender, etc. I've never had a virus, worm, or trojan on my computers (PC included) since I began using the internet over a decade ago. Frankly, I'm amazed by how many get them. It's not like how they are contracted is a big mystery.

ItTakesII said:

Then you find out your girlfriend is pregnant.

Use protection!

GF: 'Shouldn't we use protection?'
You: 'No hun, I have a Mac, no need to worry'

Click to expand...

LOL

ItTakesII said:

GF: 'Shouldn't we use protection?'
You: 'No hun, I have a Mac, no need to worry'

Click to expand...

Obviously confusing a macintosh with a raincoat. Easy mistake.

Waste of space and system resources on your Mac.

Never have. If I had a boot camp / virtual machine, I'd run it on Windows.

And FACT: MacGuyJeff is extremely exaggerating the risk. Is Mac OS completely without flaws? No, but it does NOT have the SAME flaws as Windows and to say it does is ignorant.

skunk said:

Obviously confusing a macintosh with a raincoat. Easy mistake.

Click to expand...

haha

MacFanJeff said:

I am fully aware of the difference in OS systems/platforms, but the ARE THE SAME.

Click to expand...

Ignorance is easily excusable

MacFanJeff said:

It seems like a LOT of "typical" Mac users get very emotional when confronted with anything they don't like or want to hear.

Click to expand...

Rudeness is less so

MacFanJeff said:

Does anyone not recall the virus out last year that hit several Mac users that some virus companies were quick to jump on and advertise? Yes, you are right, it's not often. Yes, are right, you are at risk with ANY software protection until code is written to protect against it. Yes, perhaps most of us here would avoid something as simple as this virus because of the nature in how it was spread and implemented. Others can crop up anytime and if you want the most security you can get then always use a virus scanner as it is better than nothing.

Click to expand...

That was a Trojan which is completely different to a virus: A trojan is installed with the consent of a user (And, on OS X, an admin password if it tries to install in a system directory, or with high privileges) and does not require a security hole in the OS: It relies on social engineering and no system can ever prevent the stupidity of users

Nah, never found the need. Been using OS X for 3 1/2 years with no issues. Plus, some of those utilities can do more harm than good.

skunk said:

Obviously confusing a macintosh with a raincoat. Easy mistake.

Click to expand...

I tried to upgrade the memory on mine, but the chips kept falling out of the pockets.