So are all MBP owners with the 8600m GT cards screwed?

GGJstudios · Jul 11, 2008

iCries said:
Haha, seriously how would you react if you put a few grand on a laptop with a serious defect? I've seen people who react worse when they get one dead pixel on their new screens.. ^^

Like I said, warranty or AppleCare would cover it, and I'd get a fixed or new laptop! Besides, prices on laptops have come down so far in recent years! I used to replace Dell laptops on average once a year for newer models, and spend $5-6K each time! I think the MBP is a bargain!

iCries · Jul 11, 2008

ggjstudios said:
Like I said, warranty or AppleCare would cover it, and I'd get a fixed or new laptop! Besides, prices on laptops have come down so far in recent years! I used to replace Dell laptops on average once a year for newer models, and spend $5-6K each time! I think the MBP is a bargain!

Obviously you haven't heard about the global economy going downhill lately, and everything becoming more expensive..

And sure it might be a bargain for yanks, over here we have to pay 40%+ the price you pay(Sweden). I can already see how much my montevina laptop is going to cost me, probably at least 6k$.

Anyhow, I think most people prefer not to switch their laptops, I certainly don't, there is so much worries, such as erased data, and having to check the new model for dead pixels and defects, I mean how many times can you take it? I certainly cant take it more than once.

GGJstudios · Jul 12, 2008

iCries said:
Obviously you haven't heard about the global economy going downhill lately, and everything becoming more expensive..

And sure it might be a bargain for yanks, over here we have to pay 40%+ the price you pay(Sweden). I can already see how much my montevina laptop is going to cost me, probably at least 6k$.

Anyhow, I think most people prefer not to switch their laptops, I certainly don't, there is so much worries, such as erased data, and having to check the new model for dead pixels and defects, I mean how many times can you take it? I certainly cant take it more than once.

It's all relative. To me, $5k-$6k on a laptop that makes me money is nothing compared to $40k on a Harley that I buy for fun! My $5k laptops have been supporting me and paying for homes, cars, Harleys, etc. for many, many years, so I view them as great investments! I realize other people's situation might be different, but I still view MBPs as a good deal, even at twice the price! Since I depend on my computers for my business, I would never consider buying one without an extended warranty, and always make sure to sell or donate one and replace it before the warranty expires. That way, I never have to worry about defects. Sure reduces stress!

jjahshik32 · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
It's all relative. To me, $5k-$6k on a laptop that makes me money is nothing compared to $40k on a Harley that I buy for fun! My $5k laptops have been supporting me and paying for homes, cars, Harleys, etc. for many, many years, so I view them as great investments! I realize other people's situation might be different, but I still view MBPs as a good deal, even at twice the price! Since I depend on my computers for my business, I would never consider buying one without an extended warranty, and always make sure to sell or donate one and replace it before the warranty expires. That way, I never have to worry about defects. Sure reduces stress!

Wait.. you paid 5-6k for the mbp!?!

For that much I could get a 2.8ghz 8 core mac pro + 23" ACD + 8gb of ram and a new hdd.

GGJstudios · Jul 12, 2008

jjahshik32 said:
Wait.. you paid 5-6k for the mbp!?!

For that much I could get a 2.8ghz 8 core mac pro + 23" ACD + 8gb of ram and a new hdd.

No, I didn't pay that much for the MBP. I USED to pay that much for top-of-the-line Dell laptops. That's why I said I think the MBP is a bargain, even IF it were to cost twice as much.

jjahshik32 · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
No, I didn't pay that much for the MBP. I USED to pay that much for top-of-the-line Dell laptops. That's why I said I think the MBP is a bargain, even IF it were to cost twice as much.

Even if you believe its a bargain, I still think its wrong to get a brand new laptop even if it costs $3000 or even $1000 to get a defective gpu right from the start.

GGJstudios · Jul 12, 2008

jjahshik32 said:
Even if you believe its a bargain, I still think its wrong to get a brand new laptop even if it costs $3000 or even $1000 to get a defective gpu right from the start.

Defective parts have shown up in every manufacturer's product ever made, at one point or another. It's an imperfect world. There's no such thing as a perfect, flawless computer. If it hasn't failed, what's the problem? If it fails while under warranty and they fix or replace it, what's the problem? If it fails after the warranty expires, you'll have gotten 3 years of use out of it (assuming you had AppleCare). It just doesn't make sense to get so worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet! If you want a computer manufacturer to guarantee you'll never have a defective part, you're gonna be looking a LONG time!

jjahshik32 · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
Defective parts have shown up in every manufacturer's product ever made, at one point or another. It's an imperfect world. There's no such thing as a perfect, flawless computer. If it hasn't failed, what's the problem? If it fails while under warranty and they fix or replace it, what's the problem? If it fails after the warranty expires, you'll have gotten 3 years of use out of it (assuming you had AppleCare). It just doesn't make sense to get so worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet! If you want a computer manufacturer to guarantee you'll never have a defective part, you're gonna be looking a LONG time!

You do know that there are defective % in every electronic that has ever been released and you do know that if its more than 1-3% its in trouble?? Especially if every single nvidia gpu will go out eventually within the 1-3 years then the defective rate is pretty much 100%.

I still have an old pIII laptop from ibm that I still have and use today. Also think about an expensive hdtv say you plop down 5-8 grand for it.. so if you have 3 year warranty and they find out that all of that exact model/brand has some sort of known defect that will likely kill the hdtv and your ok with just using it for 3 years and move on?

I dont know how much you make but sounds like money is no object to you but to me 3 grand for a laptop is already a looong investment for me and almost near insane to spend on.

I guess I'd like to break down of how much yearly it would cost for owning a laptop and for 3 grand I'd like to at least keep it for 4 years and resell it to put towards a new one. So 3 years is like paying 1k a year, which I think is expensive.

You know how long I could feed myself for 3k! And not the cheap fast food stuff like real good food!

iCries · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
Defective parts have shown up in every manufacturer's product ever made, at one point or another. It's an imperfect world. There's no such thing as a perfect, flawless computer. If it hasn't failed, what's the problem? If it fails while under warranty and they fix or replace it, what's the problem? If it fails after the warranty expires, you'll have gotten 3 years of use out of it (assuming you had AppleCare). It just doesn't make sense to get so worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet! If you want a computer manufacturer to guarantee you'll never have a defective part, you're gonna be looking a LONG time!

Man can you seriously stop defending the product, its really F***ING annoying, good for you that money is not a problem for you, but for most people money is, and spending this much on a computer in this time of the day is not normal anymore.

There are so many laptops that don't have defective parts, generally the majority don't have it, because if there were many with defective parts it would cost them allot. Now this kind of defection that we are talking about now, is a kind of defect you hardly ever see, the whole LINE of the gfx is defect, and every owner of this GPU will probably have a problem down the line due to this defect in the design. It's different defect type because the whole design is defect and normally other products only have a few % defect rate. This is a 100% defect rate.

I can still remember the infinite posts of apple fanboys who say, well we pay twice the price for the same hardware of a dell because apple gets the good batch, the better quality version of the hardware etc, now that's clearly not been the case, so I ask those retarded fanboys now; what are you paying 200% the price for?

gr8bob · Jul 12, 2008

iCries said:
Man can you seriously stop defending the product, its really F***ING annoying, good for you that money is not a problem for you, but for most people money is, and spending this much on a computer in this time of the day is not normal anymore.

There are so many laptops that don't have defective parts, generally the majority don't have it, because if there were many with defective parts it would cost them allot. Now this kind of defection that we are talking about now, is a kind of defect you hardly ever see, the whole LINE of the gfx is defect, and every owner of this GPU will probably have a problem down the line due to this defect in the design. It's different defect type because the whole design is defect and normally other products only have a few % defect rate. This is a 100% defect rate.

I can still remember the infinite posts of apple fanboys who say, well we pay twice the price for the same hardware of a dell because apple gets the good batch, the better quality version of the hardware etc, now that's clearly not been the case, so I ask those retarded fanboys now; what are you paying 200% the price for?

Well said..

iCries · Jul 12, 2008

gr8bob said:
Well said..

Kind of wrote that whole post pretty badly, but yea the question remains.

haiggy · Jul 12, 2008

My 2.2 MBP 8600 GT 128MB card died on me about a month ago. It was replaced under warranty and they gave me a 2.6 8600 GT 256 MB logic board!
Weird random graphical issues... then one day the machine wouldn't display an image on the screen or show anything through the video out.

I play WC3 A LOT.... glad this died 2 weeks before my warranty ran out! I bought AppleCare just for peace of mind.

Teej guy · Jul 12, 2008

haiggy said:
My 2.2 MBP 8600 GT 128MB card died on me about a month ago. It was replaced under warranty and they gave me a 2.6 8600 GT 256 MB logic board!

Dude, they did the same thing for me

(I've been saying 512MB around here...only recently did I realise that was wrong...sorry guys...)

I was really pleasantly surprised with the performance gain in games in Windows...the framerate is higher and more consistent and I can crank settings just a touch higher.

Did you go to the Apple Store or an official service provider like Carbon Computing?

alphaod · Jul 12, 2008

As much as I feel this computer may have a defect GPU, since I'll be replacing this computer in 2 years or so and I'll still have AppleCare then, I don't really mind. I stop getting the fail to wake, never got the pixellated display, etc.

I love my computer, I try to remain optimistic, but if it break, I'll just complain a lot and Apple will give me the latest and greatest afresh, so no worries for me.

GGJstudios · Jul 12, 2008

iCries said:
Man can you seriously stop defending the product, its really F***ING annoying, good for you that money is not a problem for you, but for most people money is, and spending this much on a computer in this time of the day is not normal anymore.

There are so many laptops that don't have defective parts, generally the majority don't have it, because if there were many with defective parts it would cost them allot. Now this kind of defection that we are talking about now, is a kind of defect you hardly ever see, the whole LINE of the gfx is defect, and every owner of this GPU will probably have a problem down the line due to this defect in the design. It's different defect type because the whole design is defect and normally other products only have a few % defect rate. This is a 100% defect rate.

I can still remember the infinite posts of apple fanboys who say, well we pay twice the price for the same hardware of a dell because apple gets the good batch, the better quality version of the hardware etc, now that's clearly not been the case, so I ask those retarded fanboys now; what are you paying 200% the price for?

I'm not defending Apple or NVIDIA or their products at all! And I'm NOT a "fanboy" of ANY product. I'm not a boy, either. If you took the time to read my posts, I have never said anything that defends Apple or NVIDIA.... I've simply said that defects can and will happen to any manufacturer at some time. I'd say the same thing about Dell or Toshiba or IBM or any other maker. I challenge you to find ONE laptop that doesn't have defects or failings! I guarantee that no matter what laptop it is, there's some owner in some forum or blog somewhere, complaining that they got a bad one. To think otherwise is to be incredibly naive.

I'm perfectly aware that money is an issue for most people, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was only stating MY view of the situation, which I'm entitled to, even if it differs from others.

I agree that seeing an entire line of defective parts isn't normal or desired. And you know what typically happens under such circumstances? A recall. If the problem is truly 100%, I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple issue a recall for all the affected computers, replacing the GPU at no cost. That's not because I think Apple or its computers are perfect or flawless or superior in any way... it's just good business. And they would probably make NVIDIA pay the cost for that, unless their licensing agreement provides otherwise. Face it, it's in both Apple's and NVIDiA's best interest to resolve the situation and make their customers happy. They fully understand the negative affect it would have on their image and stock price if they failed to step up to the plate and make it right.

As for what's annoying, the constant whining and complaining about something that hasn't happened yet is truly annoying. Do you honestly think that Apple and NVIDIA management is reading your posts to decide what course of action they're going to take in this situation? Your whining isn't going to accomplish a thing. Sure, you might stir up a few hundred "fanboys" to write emails to Apple or NVIDIA, along with the hundreds of thousands of emails they already get. Big deal!

The most responsible thing to do is make sure you have AppleCare, use your Mac and enjoy it, and, if anything, HOPE it fails while it's still under warranty! My guess is, they'll come up with a solution and all this b***hing and moaning will have been for naught.

haiggy · Jul 12, 2008

Teej guy said:
Dude, they did the same thing for me (I've been saying 512MB around here...only recently did I realise that was wrong...sorry guys...)

I was really pleasantly surprised with the performance gain in games in Windows...the framerate is higher and more consistent and I can crank settings just a touch higher.

Did you go to the Apple Store or an official service provider like Carbon Computing?

Haha I went to exactly Carbon Computing... that's not a very popular reseller/repair store is it? Where are you located?

iCries · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
I'm not defending Apple or NVIDIA or their products at all! And I'm NOT a "fanboy" of ANY product. I'm not a boy, either. If you took the time to read my posts, I have never said anything that defends Apple or NVIDIA.... I've simply said that defects can and will happen to any manufacturer at some time. I'd say the same thing about Dell or Toshiba or IBM or any other maker. I challenge you to find ONE laptop that doesn't have defects or failings! I guarantee that no matter what laptop it is, there's some owner in some forum or blog somewhere, complaining that they got a bad one. To think otherwise is to be incredibly naive.

I'm perfectly aware that money is an issue for most people, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was only stating MY view of the situation, which I'm entitled to, even if it differs from others.

I agree that seeing an entire line of defective parts isn't normal or desired. And you know what typically happens under such circumstances? A recall. If the problem is truly 100%, I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple issue a recall for all the affected computers, replacing the GPU at no cost. That's not because I think Apple or its computers are perfect or flawless or superior in any way... it's just good business. And they would probably make NVIDIA pay the cost for that, unless their licensing agreement provides otherwise. Face it, it's in both Apple's and NVIDiA's best interest to resolve the situation and make their customers happy. They fully understand the negative affect it would have on their image and stock price if they failed to step up to the plate and make it right.

As for what's annoying, the constant whining and complaining about something that hasn't happened yet is truly annoying. Do you honestly think that Apple and NVIDIA management is reading your posts to decide what course of action they're going to take in this situation? Your whining isn't going to accomplish a thing. Sure, you might stir up a few hundred "fanboys" to write emails to Apple or NVIDIA, along with the hundreds of thousands of emails they already get. Big deal!

The most responsible thing to do is make sure you have AppleCare, use your Mac and enjoy it, and, if anything, HOPE it fails while it's still under warranty! My guess is, they'll come up with a solution and all this b***hing and moaning will have been for naught.

Hey man, I wasn't calling you a fanboy or anything, I was referring to other retards who motivated Apple prices by saying that apple got the best quality parts etc.
And yea I agree with you every line of laptops do have a few bad apples, but theres a difference between defects and design defects. Design defects means that generally every product has the problem, while normal defects which probably every electronics in the world has; is just a few %.

There is really no software solution to this problem that is satisfying, you can download a driver which will make the fan turn on fully earlier and hope that you wont get any problems, but that will just make your laptop noisier, and consume a lot more battery, and I think most people wont accept that.

The only real solution to the problem is to modify the hardware physically or just to replace the whole motherboard because the card is welded to the motherboard.

And that fact isn't something most people tolerate, knowing that sooner or later they have to send in their machines for reparations and god knows how long that takes if a lot of people are going to do it at the same time due to this being a general defect.

GGJstudios · Jul 12, 2008

iCries said:
...There is really no software solution to this problem ...

The only real solution to the problem is to modify the hardware physically or just to replace the whole motherboard because the card is welded to the motherboard.

And that fact isn't something most people tolerate...

I never suggested that there was a software solution to a hardware problem. Where did that come from? I agree, the only solution is to fix or replace the hardware.

If Apple does issue a recall and offers to replace all defective parts at no cost, it will work just like automotive recalls. Some will accept the offer and go through the inconvenience in order to get their product repaired, and some won't. That's up to them.

Neither Apple nor NVIDIA nor their customers planned for or wanted this to happen. But it did. So the best thing to do is wait to see what they offer as a solution. Who knows? You may end up getting a newer, faster, cooler GPU upgrade and even an upgraded processor at no cost!

iCries · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
I never suggested that there was a software solution to a hardware problem. Where did that come from? I agree, the only solution is to fix or replace the hardware.

If Apple does issue a recall and offers to replace all defective parts at no cost, it will work just like automotive recalls. Some will accept the offer and go through the inconvenience in order to get their product repaired, and some won't. That's up to them.

Neither Apple nor NVIDIA nor their customers planned for or wanted this to happen. But it did. So the best thing to do is wait to see what they offer as a solution. Who knows? You may end up getting a newer, faster, cooler GPU upgrade and even an upgraded processor at no cost!

Glad we are seeing eye to eye, I guess the main problem at the moment is that Nvidia is trying to keep this quiet, they should just fess up and give the customers a peace of mind. There's just no way that Nvidia didn't know about this, if I understood it right from the news i read at theinq, they gave OEM's the plans for the design so the OEM's could adjust their systems for it, and in the end they released it with a higher power requirement which besides the defect also makes it generate more heat and the OEM systems weren't adjusted for the increase of heat the end model dissipated.

m1stake · Jul 12, 2008

Laugh out loud, the OP just convinced himself that 100% of the cards are bad.

Beau10 · Jul 12, 2008

ggjstudios said:
Neither Apple nor NVIDIA nor their customers planned for or wanted this to happen. But it did. So the best thing to do is wait to see what they offer as a solution. Who knows? You may end up getting a newer, faster, cooler GPU upgrade and even an upgraded processor at no cost!

For the most part I agree with your stance. But what I posted earlier gives me some pause

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/506784/

"...Subsequent debugging indicates that the machine is misidentifying its NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT card as the MacBooks Intel X3100 card. This issue is known to affect at least 50 people - a group of affected users has formed a Google Spreadsheet in order to document and organize cases.

AppleCare is recommending replacing the logic board, which some have gone through with, only to have the machine return to an unusable state shortly afterwards. Compounding the issue is the fact that this problem has arisen only shortly after the expiration of the default warrantee on these machines..."

I'm not down for paying for an extended warrantee. If I were a business, it might make sense to take the onus off the IT team and reduce downtime. But as a consumer to pay 17.5% of its cost to cover it over years 2 and 3, when the biggest cost failure (logic board outage) is roughly 50% its cost. That only pencils in if its failure rate is >35% outside its normal warrantee period, which is beyond extreme. Not to go on some big tirade, it's just that when people suggest buying insurance for consumer electronic goods its a bit hard for me to process, that's all.

That said Apple is good with PR and I agree, if this surfaces to be a problem as severe as it sounds into the public domain there will be a recall of some sort. Just a little alarmed by the paragraph I quoted above.

Teej guy · Jul 12, 2008

haiggy said:
Haha I went to exactly Carbon Computing... that's not a very popular reseller/repair store is it? Where are you located?

I used Carbon as well, I went to their Ottawa store. I was very happy with the service I got.

GGJstudios · Jul 12, 2008

doctoree · Jul 12, 2008

I'm also worried. I only recently made the switch from Windows to Mac and from having multiple computers (a mobile one and a fast desktop one) to having just one. And because I need speed and mobility it's a MBP. And because I'm still a student and can't afford more, this laptop must last at least 6 years.

I'm doing a lot of things which are demanding to the GPU like Maya, Blender, Cinema, AE and FCP. And soon I will be running Snow Leopard and then even Word will use the GPU. So YES, I'm worried.

Honestly I hope that just in the moment when Apple has a new MBP which is hopefully still in my warranty, my MBP will crash and they will exchange it to a new chipset. Much faster and flawless.
The other, more safe option is selling my MBP for a MacPro but then I would loose the important mobility. Luckily my warranty expires in February 09, so there is still plenty of time to figure out everything.

If Apple decides to release a firmware update/new GPU drivers to make the fans run faster I recommend everyone NOT to install it. It's not solving the base of the problem and therefore will only DELAY the death of the laptop. So it's death is after the (overpriced) AppleCare is over.

gangzoom · Jul 12, 2008

Having experienced the joys of owning a Xbox 360 (3 RODs in 13months!! on 3 brand new units) I hope for Navidias' sake the failure rate of the GPU isn't high, cos otherwise in 6-12months time there's going to be alot of unhappy MacBookPro owners (me included)..Given it's a design/heat issue simply replacing the logic board isn't going to solve the problem...and $200 million isn't even going to come close to covering the warranty costs involved.

My family have bought 12 macs in the last 18 years this is first time i can remember an apple product been associated with a major design flaw (our Mac Plus bought in 1990 still works great with system 6.5)...i hope this isn't a sign apple is loosing its focus on the "computing" side of its business

So are all MBP owners with the 8600m GT cards screwed?

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