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ecschwarz

macrumors 65816
Jun 28, 2010
1,433
354
I absolutely refuse to buy another notebook with a NVIDIA GPU in it. I've had multiple die on me over the years (a Late 2007 MacBook Pro, a Mid 2010 MacBook Pro, and two Dell XPS units that used the 8600M GT). As much as I'd like to have the extra processing power on a new 15-inch MacBook Pro with Retina display and a GeForce 750M GT, NVIDIA have burned me too many times...

ATI/AMD has had its fair share of stinkers, too - ask the 2011 MacBook Pro owners affected by "Radeongate" or the 2003 iBook owners who got a long extended warranty (I think it was 7 years). Either way, I think both have had their duds and I don't really need ridiculous processing power, so I've been sticking to Intel's offerings on my portables. As for desktops, I've had a variety and they've seemed to hold up okay.
 

Loops

macrumors regular
Oct 5, 2010
104
8
It's not Apple's fault that NVIDIA's parts broke.
It is in terms of responsibility to the customer who bought the Apple product containing the Nvidia part.

If someone buys a Corsair power supply, for instance, and it catches fire because of a faulty part — the only people who will care about who the part's supplier was are enthusiasts and journalists. Regular consumers will look at it as a matter of Corsair's power supplies having failed. That view is the practical one. Consumers should not have to deal with parts suppliers when there are problems with complex equipment!

You talk of common sense but your argument is that consumers should have to delve into the murky details of specific parts in highly complex equipment rather than dealing with the vendor who sold the piece of equipment. That's ridiculous.
Apple did replace with Rev B variants of the 8600GT, which were newly made by NVIDIA to replace the defective Rev A parts. The Rev B variants don't have the defects.
This is the first I've heard of this and I followed this topic for a long time. Do you have any links to support this claim?
 

yjchua95

macrumors 604
Apr 23, 2011
6,725
233
GVA, KUL, MEL (current), ZQN
It is in terms of responsibility to the customer who bought the Apple product containing the Nvidia part.

If someone buys a Corsair power supply, for instance, and it catches fire because of a faulty part — the only people who will care about who the part's supplier was are enthusiasts and journalists. Regular consumers will look at it as a matter of Corsair's power supplies having failed. That view is the practical one. Consumers should not have to deal with parts suppliers when there are problems with complex equipment!

You talk of common sense but your argument is that consumers should have to delve into the murky details of specific parts in highly complex equipment rather than dealing with the vendor who sold the piece of equipment. That's ridiculous.

Then I don't think you know what caveat emptor is.

The average consumer should know that computers are made out of several different parts sourced from various manufacturers. It is the responsibility of the consumer to do research on the product before buying.

Complex equipment are after all, when broken down, made up from simple components.

So if I apply your logic, my BMW is a complex product too. If my tyre bursts while driving it back from the showroom, I shouldn't have to deal with parts suppliers (Continental in this instance)when there are problems with complex equipment (the car itself). So I should blame BMW instead of Continental?

And also if my airbag malfunctions, I should blame BMW instead of Takata? If I apply your logic, consumers should view it as a BMW problem instead of Takata's?
 

vbedia

macrumors regular
Jan 25, 2014
155
28
Then I don't think you know what caveat emptor is.

The average consumer should know that computers are made out of several different parts sourced from various manufacturers. It is the responsibility of the consumer to do research on the product before buying.

Complex equipment are after all, when broken down, made up from simple components.

So if I apply your logic, my BMW is a complex product too. If my tyre bursts while driving it back from the showroom, I shouldn't have to deal with parts suppliers (Continental in this instance)when there are problems with complex equipment (the car itself). So I should blame BMW instead of Continental?

And also if my airbag malfunctions, I should blame BMW instead of Takata? If I apply your logic, consumers should view it as a BMW problem instead of Takata's?

I understand your point. Then what piece of the computer has to fail so you can blame Apple?

BMW manufacture their engines, I can see what part of your car you may blame BMW for malfunctioning. What about an Apple computer? I am just being curious that's all.
 

yjchua95

macrumors 604
Apr 23, 2011
6,725
233
GVA, KUL, MEL (current), ZQN
I understand your point. Then what piece of the computer has to fail so you can blame Apple?

BMW manufacture their engines, I can see what part of your car you may blame BMW for malfunctioning. What about an Apple computer? I am just being curious that's all.

None.

The 8600GT failure was caused by NVIDIA. Even NVIDIA themselves admitted it and reimbursed Apple for the replacement program. Other Windows PC manufacturers also launched similar programs for computers containing the GPU.

But in the 2011 Radeongate debacle, both AMD and Apple are to be blamed. AMD's chips were not really well made, and Apple's manufacturing process contributed towards it. The factory workers poorly applied thermal paste, causing the heat problems and hence leading to Radeongate. It also doesn't help that the cMBP's thermal design was pretty shoddy, with inadequate ventilation.

Apple can't be blamed for component failures unless it's due to their error in manufacturing process and design (they caused the Radeon chips to fail because the factory workers did not apply thermal paste properly, and Apple's poor thermal design of the cMBP contributed toward it). So in essence, Radeongate happened because of Apple's design and manufacturing failures (and perhaps AMD's design as well).

Meanwhile, the 8600GT in the MBP (non-unibody) was not due to Apple's fault. Rather, it failed because of NVIDIA's manufacturing errors.
 

chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,524
7,047
Apple can't be blamed for component failures

The party to blame is irrelevant in instances like these and blame itself is irrelevant. The end user has no business relationship with the component vendor and the only party responsible for repair is Apple. What Apple decides to do to pursue the component manufacturer is Apple's problem, not that of the end user. The same is true for the examples you gave with your car. Defective tires and airbags are repaired by the car dealer and car manufacturer, as they are the responsible parties, and the ones with whom you've established a sale/warranty relationship.
 
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yjchua95

macrumors 604
Apr 23, 2011
6,725
233
GVA, KUL, MEL (current), ZQN
The party to blame is irrelevant in instances like these and blame itself is irrelevant. The end user has no business relationship with the component vendor and the only party responsible for repair is Apple. What Apple decides to do to pursue the component manufacturer is Apple's problem, not that of the end user. The same is true for the examples you gave with your car. Defective tires and airbags are repaired by the car dealer and car manufacturer, as they are the responsible parties, and the ones with whom you've established a sale/warranty relationship.

Still, it's not right for the consumer to blame Apple itself for the entire debacle, unless it was a design flaw in the computer and not the components, like the 2011 models.

Defective tyres aren't repaired by my manufacturer (BMW in my case) either. They just compensate me for damages and enough to get myself a new set of tyres. Airbags are repaired by BMW as well, but they can't do it unless the airbag manufacturer (Takata in my case) admits to the flaw (in which they did) and reimburse the car manufacturer to launch a recall program.

NVIDIA was pretty responsible by owning up and reimbursing the manufacturers for recalling all laptops with the 8600M GT. If NVIDIA didn't own up and reimburse, Apple wouldn't have launched the replacement program.
 

Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
2,034
924
Hawaii, USA
BMW manufacture their engines, I can see what part of your car you may blame BMW for malfunctioning. What about an Apple computer? I am just being curious that's all.
I suspect the issue is how high-profile the manufacturer's name is. If a tire ruptures then you blame the tire manufacturer instead of the car manufacturer, because the tire manufacturer's name is marked on every single tire. If there's a mechanical failure in some other part of the car then you blame the car manufacturer, because you don't know who made the actual part. Similarly with the Corsair power supply example, you don't know the companies behind each individual bit of wiring, you only know about the Corsair brand name splashed across the power supply. Hence Corsair gets the blame.

Looking at the graphics chips, what is the first term seen in every single formal graphics card name? The manufacturer. NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT. AMD Radeon HD 6750M. Intel HD Graphics. And hence, the individual graphics card company get the blame.

I'm not necessarily saying that this is the right way to assign blame; we could argue that AMD and NVIDIA should get a pass, and that the actual manufacturing company should be held responsible. Visibility of company name is just the pattern of how people assign blame.
 

Loops

macrumors regular
Oct 5, 2010
104
8
Then I don't think you know what caveat emptor is.
Red herring.
The average consumer should know that computers are made out of several different parts sourced from various manufacturers. It is the responsibility of the consumer to do research on the product before buying.
Horse crap. No consumer needs to know the source of every part in a laptop.
Complex equipment are after all, when broken down, made up from simple components.
Fascinating.
So if I apply your logic, my BMW is a complex product too. If my tyre bursts while driving it back from the showroom, I shouldn't have to deal with parts suppliers (Continental in this instance)when there are problems with complex equipment (the car itself). So I should blame BMW instead of Continental?
A tire is a removable part that is widely known to be user-serviceable, like wiper blades and batteries. Your analogy completely fails.
And also if my airbag malfunctions, I should blame BMW instead of Takata? If I apply your logic, consumers should view it as a BMW problem instead of Takata's?
Yes. It was BMW's responsibility to sell the vehicle with non-removable non-user serviceable parts that were in working order.

----------

Still, it's not right for the consumer to blame Apple itself for the entire debacle, unless it was a design flaw in the computer and not the components, like the 2011 models.
It was a design flaw. The part that Apple installed did not meet the needs of the customer. It was not reliable. Nvidia is responsible to Apple and Apple is responsible to the consumer. That's how normal business works with complex machines that have parts that are not user-serviceable like soldered GPUs.
 

Loops

macrumors regular
Oct 5, 2010
104
8
Actually, I will make one change to my above post. The tire analogy is apt. Every part, whether it's user-serviceable or not, is the responsibility of the car maker. Only 3rd-party replacement parts that users install are the responsibility of the user to police.

When you sell a product to someone, the entire product needs to be in working order. If it isn't, it's your responsibility. The parts suppliers answer to you and you answer to the consumer. This is the entire reason behind having car dealerships. The dealership answers to you. The car maker answers to the dealership because they're the same entity. The parts suppliers answer to the car maker.

It is a ridiculous nightmare of inefficiency to expect consumers to police parts suppliers for products that are sold to them intact. Apple even tries to disguise OEM parts suppliers by, for instance, labeling its SSDs "Apple".

The SSD in my Macbook Pro says "APPLE SSD SM1024F". It doesn't say Samsung. There is no information under memory in System Profiler that tells me who the maker of the RAM is in my system.

The argument that consumers need to become experts in every tiny detail of every product is one that only disreputable manufacturers would embrace. It is the opposite of efficiency and responsibility.
 
Last edited:

yjchua95

macrumors 604
Apr 23, 2011
6,725
233
GVA, KUL, MEL (current), ZQN
Red herring.

Horse crap. No consumer needs to know the source of every part in a laptop.

Fascinating.

A tire is a removable part that is widely known to be user-serviceable, like wiper blades and batteries. Your analogy completely fails.

Yes. It was BMW's responsibility to sell the vehicle with non-removable non-user serviceable parts that were in working order.

----------


It was a design flaw. The part that Apple installed did not meet the needs of the customer. It was not reliable. Nvidia is responsible to Apple and Apple is responsible to the consumer. That's how normal business works with complex machines that have parts that are not user-serviceable like soldered GPUs.

Then you can go back to whatever cave you came from, if you disagree with caveat emptor.

Consumers may not have to know the source of every part, but that doesn't give them the excuse to put the blame squarely on the complete product's manufacturer (in this case, Apple).

If BMW's responsibility was such, then you've really got your head up your backside. BMW was not aware of the Takata airbag problems at that time (in fact, the showdown occurred only sometime last year), so it's not fair to place the blame on BMW, when it has no way of knowing it (until the showdown last year and the inquiry). I get your point that it's BMW's responsibility to sell a complete working product, but it should not be blamed for what is obviously its supplier's problem. They can change suppliers and offer to replace the affected part(s) for free (in which they did on my car), but they have no reason to be blamed for their former supplier's screwups, because they had no idea at that time until they were made aware of the problem.

And as for your last part, so, in the end, NVIDIA is still ultimately responsible to the consumer for supplying Apple with lousy parts. Appreciate the fact that NVIDIA at least reimbursed Apple so that Apple could launch the recall programme.

Actually, I will make one change to my above post. The tire analogy is apt. Every part, whether it's user-serviceable or not, is the responsibility of the car maker. Only 3rd-party replacement parts that users install are the responsibility of the user to police.

When you sell a product to someone, the entire product needs to be in working order. If it isn't, it's your responsibility. The parts suppliers answer to you and you answer to the consumer. This is the entire reason behind having car dealerships. The dealership answers to you. The car maker answers to the dealership because they're the same entity. The parts suppliers answer to the car maker.

It is a ridiculous nightmare of inefficiency to expect consumers to police parts suppliers for products that are sold to them intact. Apple even tries to disguise OEM parts suppliers by, for instance, labeling its SSDs "Apple".

The SSD in my Macbook Pro says "APPLE SSD SM1024F". It doesn't say Samsung. There is no information under memory in System Profiler that tells me who the maker of the RAM is in my system.

The argument that consumers need to become experts in every tiny detail of every product is one that only disreputable manufacturers would embrace. It is the opposite of efficiency and responsibility.

So are you saying every single part, including the Continental tyres that came with my BMW, is the responsibility of BMW? And that I should blame BMW for wear and tear from regular usage on my tyres?

When Apple sold the 2008 MBPs to consumers, the entire product itself was in working order. It failed due to NVIDIA's fault, not Apple's. So it's still NVIDIA's responsibility. It's not Apple's fault that NVIDIA's parts failed, and Apple had no way to know during assembly that NVIDIA had a manufacturing flaw in it that caused their laptops to fail, until the complaints started.

The BMW dealership in Southbank, Melbourne, does not have to answer to me for a part failure like a faulty Takata airbag; Takata has to answer to me on why they goofed up their parts and get themselves into this brouhaha, and they also have to answer to me on how they're going to make reparations to me, via BMW. The car maker does not answer to the dealership - consider the dealership as the middle man that only sells cars and nothing else. I don't know how you guys do it there, but when my car needs to go in for its periodical servicing, I send it back to the BMW workshop that is run by BMW itself, and not the dealership. The dealership only sells cars, and has no part in servicing cars. Servicing is done by the manufacturer, not the dealer.

There is information under System Information to show the RAM manufacturer. For instance, mine shows 0x0198, in which a quick Google search reveals it to be Kingston. If you're too lazy to do a Google search, I don't know what to make of it.

Your argument that consumers don't have to know the most crucial details just proves that you don't have any idea on how caveat emptor works. It also proves that consumers like you have become too complacent and overprotected by consumer laws that only pass the blame to the manufacturer in general and not the parts suppliers. I'll assume that you're an American and that you lads just love to misuse your consumer 'rights' and file a lawsuit to squarely put the blame on the manufacturer (like Apple) so that you can relieve your responsibility of doing research to find out what really happened before appropriating blame properly.
 

LucniKonik

macrumors newbie
Jan 30, 2015
6
1
Prague, Czech Republic
nVidia problems

Hello,

I wish to add some information about MBP 3.1, where were too nVidia 8600GT M chips. The main problem of this graphics card, beside of faulty ones is, that nVidia doesn't hold their own TDP specifications and the chip produces more heat than specification said.

For all owners of functional MBP Late 2007 and 2008 I would recommend one very very important thing - once a year clean up the whole cooling system with thermal compound renewing.

My MBP is Late 2007 and at normal work the temperatures inside doesn't exceed 62 degrees of Celsius (143 Fahrenheit) - i do Yearly maintenance, it is not easy, if You do not know how to, better let it done someone who knows with electronics devices (for thermal compound renew is to do a complete disassembly of the computer, which is complicated).

And the last thing - I agree with that You cannot blame manufacturer for faulty component, which the manufacturer doesn't manufactured in his factory but bought from other manufacturer :)
 

MacRazySwe

macrumors 65816
Aug 7, 2007
1,199
1,080
So, my old 2007 MacBook Pro has finally died.

Oh well, I think eight years of service is quite remarkable, still. It was actually the first new computer I bought with my own money, after working for a few weeks during my summer break in 7th grade. I used it as my main computer for five years, before passing it on to my father who has used it as a media center computer ever since.

While the computer now does still start, the screen is completely dead. Fans are still running, speakers and illuminated keyboard are still working, so I figured it has to be the GPU.

Before giving up on it completely, is there anyway to possibly use an external GPU with the MBP? Maybe through the ExpressCard slot or something? Would this solve the issue?

Thanks in advance!
 

the caveman

macrumors 6502
Aug 21, 2007
439
191
I have the santa rosa from 2007 and i had the logic board replaced three years ago due to 8600gt. Its been holding up fine since. I dont do anything on that laptop that even remotely taxes the graphics card.
 

steh-fan

macrumors newbie
Mar 23, 2015
2
0
How to identify GPU (without removing logic board)?

Hi there,

I recently got my GPU swapped (supposedly the G84-603-A2) and now I would like to know whether it's indeed installed (machine still gets somewhat hot).
Is there any software/ hardware testing program that can identify the GPU version?
I wouldn't like to pull the logic board just to check what is written on the chip.

Thanks a lot for the help!
 

niketnyt

macrumors newbie
Jul 11, 2014
3
0
San Diego
MacBook Pro replacing 8600 GT WITH G84-603 A2

MacbookPro 17 replacing GPU w/ G84-603-A2
So I'm looking at replacing the failed video chip in my 2007 MacBook Pro 17"
With the Nvidia G84-603-A2. I understand that this is a suitable replacement and will fit. I'm sending the logic board off to a company that has the equipment to accomplish this task.
What I'm looking for is feedback from anyone that has done this or has any experience or knowledge of this newer Nvidia chip, fail rate, heat issues, etc.
Basically I do not want to get back into the same problems again with video going bad on my MacBook Pro.
Thanks all
 

steh-fan

macrumors newbie
Mar 23, 2015
2
0
MacbookPro 17 replacing GPU w/ G84-603-A2
So I'm looking at replacing the failed video chip in my 2007 MacBook Pro 17"
With the Nvidia G84-603-A2. I understand that this is a suitable replacement and will fit. I'm sending the logic board off to a company that has the equipment to accomplish this task.
What I'm looking for is feedback from anyone that has done this or has any experience or knowledge of this newer Nvidia chip, fail rate, heat issues, etc.
Basically I do not want to get back into the same problems again with video going bad on my MacBook Pro.
Thanks all


Hi, I have recently done this to mine. The laptop had the no power fail and when it was shipped back, it ran again, which was great.
There seem to be quite the price differences for this kind of repair out there, so some comparison beforehand would be good.
What surprised me that the newer chip is not necessarily running cooler, the laptop still gets pretty hot, but the newer version seems to be more heat resistant (based on what this issue initially caused).
About longevity I can't really comment yet. The first chip lasted 6 years and I don't think I'll keep it another 6.
Good luck!
 

Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
2,034
924
Hawaii, USA
What I'm looking for is feedback from anyone that has done this or has any experience or knowledge of this newer Nvidia chip, fail rate, heat issues, etc.
Basically I do not want to get back into the same problems again with video going bad on my MacBook Pro.
Thanks all
I don't think that anything formal was ever done, but the anecdotal evidence was that the replacement chips were just as faulty as the originals.
 

chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,524
7,047
Hiya,

Here is my story....

April 2011 but a 15" MBP 500Gb HDD etc.

You're in the wrong thread, this is for the 2007-2008 Macbook Pros which also had graphics problems. There is a separate and extensive thread on the 2011 models.
 

emohelsing

macrumors newbie
Sep 2, 2014
3
1
Just stopping by to tell you that I recently purchased a used 2008 MBP with the 8600M graphics card from its first ever owner. He said he used it quite a lot and the only reason for selling it is it not being able to support newer versions of macOS. And it workes fine, has always worked fine (except for the optical drive that failed one year ago).

It's 2017.

9 years later.
 
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MartiNZ

macrumors 65816
Apr 10, 2008
1,222
125
Auckland, New Zealand
Nicely done. I still have mine that had the card replaced and it is running fine. For the last several years it has not been taxed though; my father was using it mainly for word processing. Now he has a newer one and I'm using the 2008 pretty much instead of an Apple TV. It does lack a battery as even the replacement one of those went bad quickly. Great machine though really :)
 
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