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Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues
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Eh? Why would Google pull the support they have built into their services supporting the official W3C standards (HTML5) in favor of a proprietary plug-in (Flash)? If you are in favor of open cross-platform development you should be championing HTML5, not Flash.
Besides, this thread isn't about flash on the web, it's about Apple dictating the tools and skill set of developers. While I disagree with the general stance that Apple is taking, how is a flash developer going to respond when Apple requests the an call or method for dimensioning an array be changed in the resulting Objective-C code?
I totally agree with you: Apple was right when they said Adobe are lazy. What Adobe says about Spaces is "lalala I can't hear you! Photoshop doesn't have to be aware of Spaces for Spaces to work", they think that OS X should handle Spaces no matter what, but they are missing the fact that Spaces only handles WINDOWS, and Photoshop's palettes are NOT windows but some other weird layered things that OS X does not treat like Windows. It treats them like it treats the Inspector in iWord, etc... It disappears when you activate Exposé, for example. Photoshop should be one window, not an empty window frame with non-standard elements on top of it.
However, I think Apple should be smarter and do something to help Adobe, thus making it better for us users. I don't know how, but Apple obviously sees that Adobe are stuck to their own ways of doing things, which might work on Windows, but doesn't work on OS X. The result is: Using Adobe products (Flash and Photoshop) on Windows is a better experience than on OS X. Apparent conclusion: PCs are better. And Apple is right: it's not their fault that Adobe doesn't want to do things the Apple way, but I think that Apple should be the intelligent one here and do something to make Macs the better experience when it comes to these things. Now I'm just saying this, I don't know whether this is possible, but it would be nice if it were.
It would indeed be a good idea if Flash could be converted into HTML5. I don't know whether that's possible. But I can say that games are definitely something that Flash it very good at for many reasons: go to Newgrounds and you'll find thousands of games, many very bad ones, but many are way better than anything you will ever find in the App store. And guess what? They're ALL free! And the fact that they run in your browser and not as a native App sort of explains why their performance is worse than HTML5. Would you expect an iPhone game to run smoothly as a browser plugin? Flash sucks for ads and videos, it's not meant to do that sort of simple stuff. It was designed for very complex things such as games, and Flash is the only thing that will let you play such games in a browser. Then you have that Flex library called "Flixel". On Newgrounds, you have an entire category dedicated to those: they're Flash games, but without vector animations. What do you get? Amazing performance. Just try them, and tell me, are they laggy, in any way, on even the slowest, oldest computer? Flash has many uses, and since it's easy to use, some people don't pay attention to making their code efficient. If they do, it get's really good. Flash could get really good if Adobe did something about it!
Apple can duplicate Adobe's apps' functionality and features way before users feel the pinch. $40 billion to spend by the most innovative company in tech, plus an ocean of the best and brightest developers who I'm sure are not only dying for a chance to get a crack at such an opportunity, but would very likely put out a better product with a UI set that doesn't suck ass.
Apple's leverage is INSANE.
I would love to see what Apple and its developer base can come up with.
Apple's leverage is INSANE.
I would love to see what Apple and its developer base can come up with.
Not an entirely analogous case, but I'd like to point out that the License agreement (which is all this hype is about at the moment: the SDK License Agreement, rather than any technical limitations) for OS X has done a great job of preventing me from running OS X on various non-apple hardware over the years. (yeah, right.) Just because Apple says you can't do something doesn't mean it won't happen, especially if the compiler does a good enough job at making the finished product look like something created by Xcode. (AFAIK, developers still aren't required to submit source with their apps to the store) Not that I'm a big fan of Flash, but if I were Adobe, I would work on the flash compiler to make it undetectable and try to get apps approved regardless of what Apple says.
Another approach is the one xmlvm takes, which is to input code in one language, and output an Xcode project in Objective C which can be further modified or just compiled as-is. In that case, it might be pretty difficult to tell that the program was originally written in, for example, Java. Depends on how serious apple gets about this, though. This could turn into another cat-and-mouse game of apple vs. cross compilers, but I certainly hope they don't just stop trying because Apple says they can't.
Another approach is the one xmlvm takes, which is to input code in one language, and output an Xcode project in Objective C which can be further modified or just compiled as-is. In that case, it might be pretty difficult to tell that the program was originally written in, for example, Java. Depends on how serious apple gets about this, though. This could turn into another cat-and-mouse game of apple vs. cross compilers, but I certainly hope they don't just stop trying because Apple says they can't.
+1
Adobe, get off your high horse and get improving your crappy flash. No standard is untouchable. Apple's reasoning of ditching Flash in order to make way for its smart multi-tasking implementation is more than justifiable.
Get over yourselves over there.
I don't get it. If you have a heartache with apple over this then voice your opinion by not buying apple products. If you think they are imposing unacceptable development guidelines then go develop for Android. You have options people. If you don't like it, stop whining about it on these boards and take your business elsewhere.
The only tempers flaring are those of Adobe employees and ignorant flash developers. There was a party and Adobe wasn't invited.
NO FRIENDS OF FLASH (FOF) ALLOWED.
NO FRIENDS OF FLASH (FOF) ALLOWED.
How will Apple know?
How is Apple going to know a program is cross compiled from Flash? Look for characteristics inside a given binary (ala virus detection techniques)? But that can easily be defeated by developers, by changing their binary just enough to hide it's origin. After all, the binary is just a big glob of machine code.
How is Apple going to know a program is cross compiled from Flash? Look for characteristics inside a given binary (ala virus detection techniques)? But that can easily be defeated by developers, by changing their binary just enough to hide it's origin. After all, the binary is just a big glob of machine code.
There are a lot of Unity and Torque developers with flaring tempers right now.
There was a party, and Apple may have just kicked out some amazing development platforms and developers who have already made incredible, successful apps.
Gimp does what I need. Hell, I still use AppleWorks most of the time. Maybe AppleWorks is that Photoshop killer.
Adobe really just needs to try to keep up with the changing world. Just like Microsoft it's still churning out face-lift versions of established software. People are forced to buy them to gain compatibility with the latest OS versions.
In this case Adobe want a quick and easy free ride onto the success of the iPhone. Apple have clearly got good reason to protect the quality and compatibility of apps that make it to the iPhone.
In this case Adobe want a quick and easy free ride onto the success of the iPhone. Apple have clearly got good reason to protect the quality and compatibility of apps that make it to the iPhone.
Why spend money on a product rollout when someone else already sells Photoshop for your platform, which has always been a popular app?
You honestly think Apple would be left helpless if Adobe packed up and went home?
Too funny.Apple and Adobe have been wrangling over Photoshop behind the scenes for a few years now. Adobe packing up wouldn't be news to Apple.
(Don't think Adobe doesn't know this.)
Adobe could discontinue flash for the Mac, that would be a blow to Apple for about 5 minutes until someone over at the "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC" makes a new advertisement....
Apple aren't implementing Flash for one simple reason: Stability.
Why do you think they updated Safari so that when "plug-ins like Flash" don't work properly, they won't bring down the whole program?...
Apple don't want to see their iPhones/iPod Touches riddled with apps that are unstable or don't operate well. Thats at least a descent side of the argument - the bad side is that Adobe think Apple are complete c0ck ends and are taking the relationship to boiling point.
Does anyone here remember 'that' Keynote from 1997, when Steve Jobs suggested that "Apple and Adobe should be doing more together... When was the last time Apple said to Adobe 'Hey - how can we make you programs run better on our machines?'". Gee, let me think... I can't remember!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEHNrqPkefI (link to MacWorld 97)
Apple want so much control over their applications, yet they're not willing to liase with Adobe. And Adobe, in turn, are not helping... It's all one big mess.
Apple should be concentrating on being original and doing what they do best. Even going developers like Adobe and asking how they can get their software to perform better than Windows machines. As far as I'm concerned, the Apple/Adobe partnership has been zilch in the 2000's. CS3 doesn't even work with Snow Leopard (and its still an excellent program!)... any kind of Flash content bumps my Mac's CPU temperature up to about 70 celcius and higher... No 64bit support yet... The CS software is genuinely better for Windows now.
They should be concentrating on a smaller hardware base, too, instead of all this consumer crap that merely blurs the distinctions between the platforms in the first place.
Why do you think they updated Safari so that when "plug-ins like Flash" don't work properly, they won't bring down the whole program?...
Apple don't want to see their iPhones/iPod Touches riddled with apps that are unstable or don't operate well. Thats at least a descent side of the argument - the bad side is that Adobe think Apple are complete c0ck ends and are taking the relationship to boiling point.
Does anyone here remember 'that' Keynote from 1997, when Steve Jobs suggested that "Apple and Adobe should be doing more together... When was the last time Apple said to Adobe 'Hey - how can we make you programs run better on our machines?'". Gee, let me think... I can't remember!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEHNrqPkefI (link to MacWorld 97)
Apple want so much control over their applications, yet they're not willing to liase with Adobe. And Adobe, in turn, are not helping... It's all one big mess.
Apple should be concentrating on being original and doing what they do best. Even going developers like Adobe and asking how they can get their software to perform better than Windows machines. As far as I'm concerned, the Apple/Adobe partnership has been zilch in the 2000's. CS3 doesn't even work with Snow Leopard (and its still an excellent program!)... any kind of Flash content bumps my Mac's CPU temperature up to about 70 celcius and higher... No 64bit support yet... The CS software is genuinely better for Windows now.
They should be concentrating on a smaller hardware base, too, instead of all this consumer crap that merely blurs the distinctions between the platforms in the first place.
85% of the comments on here are from people who think this is about Flash Player vs. HTML5. It is not. You do not make apps for the app store with HTML5.
You're getting confused because there are two different programs made by Adobe--Adobe Flash and Flash Player--and because there is a file format called Flash (.swf). Adobe Flash is the expensive development program that can export .swf files that get run by your browser with the Flash Player plugin. But it also exports other things, such as .mov files, and now, the plan was, app store files.
Apps do not run in your browser. This is not an HTML5 alternative being discussed here. These comments such as "Who cares!!! HTML5 is better, anyway!" are completely irrelevant.
You're getting confused because there are two different programs made by Adobe--Adobe Flash and Flash Player--and because there is a file format called Flash (.swf). Adobe Flash is the expensive development program that can export .swf files that get run by your browser with the Flash Player plugin. But it also exports other things, such as .mov files, and now, the plan was, app store files.
Apps do not run in your browser. This is not an HTML5 alternative being discussed here. These comments such as "Who cares!!! HTML5 is better, anyway!" are completely irrelevant.