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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:17 PM   #76
Ballis
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Originally Posted by interrobang View Post
Did you seriously believe that he was a perfect being?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly thought so. Still do.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:21 PM   #77
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Man, he could have been saved.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:23 PM   #78
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So who wants to aid me in research for a cure for cancer?
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:24 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
I happen to be an MD who deals with cancer patients, particularly pancreatic patients, all the time. Steve had a neuroendocrine tumor of his pancreas which is made up of malignant cells that produce hormones and chemicals to control various parts of our normal physiology.

In short, earlier surgery may have given Steve a bit more time, but his fate would have almost certainly been the same.
I'm an M.D. too. The survival rate of someone with a neuroendocrine tumor far exceeds that of someone with an adenoCA. The fact that he had a whipple means he waited too long for proper treatment while he was curing himself via "special diet." Maybe he would have had a chance at a cure if he had a complete resection before the thing metastasized all over his abdomen.

I see this junk too often- people, who after reading wikipedia, thinking they can fix their brain tumors with vitamins. It's sad.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:25 PM   #80
sg86
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Originally Posted by gri View Post
Now, that's just tragic - especially since neoendocrine pancreatic cancer has a better cure rate that adenocarcinoma. The earlier the therapy the better, and the only curative approach is surgery in this case. Chemo is adjuvant.
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Originally Posted by alpinadvl View Post
yes.... this was the saddest part of this from a medical professional point of view.... this type of pancreatic cancer is rarer even than the relatively rare other pancreatic cancers which are more rapid and less curable.

very unfortunate.

to have that regret.

(in other words... this type of pancreatic cancer actually is curable)

I am very curious what "medical profession" you are a part of? Cancer can rarely if ever be considered "curable".... especially with any form of pancreatic cancer! Better survival rate, maybe. But not cured.

and secondly to the first poster Gri... why would you phrase something in those words on a non-medical forum? It irritates me to the bone when people show off their medical knowledge by using terminology ignorantly. If your not an oncologist or even a doc, don't present yourself as one! And if you are, then phases like that can do more harm to educate the public than good.

No-one knows where or when metastasis of the cancer took place. There is research to suggest that going in a cutting right away could have shortened his life by seeding the cancer. So this speculation that he would still be with us if he would of had the surgery earlier has no reasonable foundation. The fact of the matter is that SJ lived a considerable time longer than most with such a diagnosis.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:28 PM   #81
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In the end the timing probably would not have made much difference. Pancriatic cancer has a very low survivability rate.

From http://www.pancreatic.org/site/c.htJ...tic_Cancer.htm:

Quote:
According to the American Cancer Society, for all stages of pancreatic cancer combined, the one-year relative survival rate is 20%, and the five-year rate is 4%.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:30 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by sg86 View Post
Cancer can rarely if ever be considered "curable".... especially with any form of pancreatic cancer! Better survival rate, maybe. But not cured.
There are plenty of cancers that are curable if caught early. A few off the top of my head that I see on occasion: basal cell, squamous cell, melanoma of the skin, retinoblastoma, ocular melanoma.

All these can recur of course, but not always.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:31 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by robogobo View Post
though the stats speak otherwise, it's not exactly unwise to try natural healing first.
Going against the stats is always unwise.

If you want to use alternative medicine, then use it as a complimentary approach. Modern medicine is far from perfect, but it's the most effective and reliable tool we have. Supplement it with whatever you like, but ignore it to your peril.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:34 PM   #84
iChrist
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Magical thinking??

.
The RDF does not work on physiologic processes.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:36 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by jc1350 View Post
In the end the timing probably would not have made much difference. Pancriatic cancer has a very low survivability rate.

From http://www.pancreatic.org/site/c.htJ...tic_Cancer.htm:
That poignant statistic may be accurate, but it isn't particularly relevant here. Various forms of pancreatic cancer range from practicably incurable to quite treatable, and Steve had the latter. Looking at "all pancreatic cancer combined" isn't particularly useful unless your purpose is to build awareness.

Nine months is a long time; given the relative success of Steve's treatments once they were started, I don't think it reasonable to downplay the possible consequences of his decision. It could have made the difference.

Very sad, though not entirely surprising. Many people take solace in alternative treatments: they're appealing on so many levels. But they just don't work, not against cancer, not against anything.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:37 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
In short, earlier surgery may have given Steve a bit more time, but his fate would have almost certainly been the same.
Thanks for the insight, doc... but in the long term the outcome is always the same, no matter how healthy you are.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:39 PM   #87
A418t81
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I'm an M.D. too. The survival rate of someone with a neuroendocrine tumor far exceeds that of someone with an adenoCA. The fact that he had a whipple means he waited too long for proper treatment while he was curing himself via "special diet." Maybe he would have had a chance at a cure if he had a complete resection before the thing metastasized all over his abdomen.

I see this junk too often- people, who after reading wikipedia, thinking they can fix their brain tumors with vitamins. It's sad.
If the neuroendocrine tumor is well differentiated, I agree with you 100%, but when they are more primitive, in my experience, they are usually worse. From what I've gathered, if the tumor spread throughout his porta hepatis that much over 9 months, I doubt it was a well differentiated islet cell tumor. Anyway, it's all hear-say at this point.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:39 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by climber20 View Post
There are plenty of cancers that are curable if caught early. A few off the top of my head that I see on occasion: basal cell, squamous cell, melanoma of the skin, retinoblastoma, ocular melanoma.

All these can recur of course, but not always.
I am not going to get into an argument on this forum over this but the bases of statement is wrong. Yes, you may have a 100% survival rate but that does not equal cured. You can never be fully sure that you eliminate all cancerous cells and thus cure the disease! Yes, with BCC and SCC you can be pretty much 99% sure that you removed the majority of the cancerous tissue that would lead to further disease. But still this does not equal cured. Secondly, note that in my post I said "rarely." If you are in the medical field you know that SCC and BCC are not often grouped within the epidemiological aspects of cancer unless they have severely metastasize. So, yes by the general public's standards these are considered cured... Not by the oncology/medical standards.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:41 PM   #89
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Pretty typical of his life. He was usually the only one in his own way.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:41 PM   #90
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I would have liked to hear more on Steve's thoughts of the medical industry. At least medical / insurance industry has it's problems and reminds me of Windows 95. It needs a Steve Jobs type person to fix it, I suppose.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:42 PM   #91
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Isaacson replies, "I think that he kind of felt that if you ignore something, if you don't want something to exist, you can have magical thinking...we talked about this a lot," he tells Kroft. "He wanted to talk about it, how he regretted it....I think he felt he should have been operated on sooner."

I'm looking forward to read the book, although it's hard to tell which are the exact words straight from Steve Jobs, and which are the author's interpretation of what the man thinks.

It's hard not to think about the road not taken. However much we all wish that Steve Jobs had done the surgery earlier and perhaps would've had a better chance of survival, we can't know about what would've happened in this scenario. What if he had complications and that actually would have endangered or ended his life earlier? We just don't know.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:42 PM   #92
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It's amazing what a different mindset I am from that.

If I found out I had cancer I'd ask the doc "um, can you cut me open like now?"
Apparently he is not the only one. Some cancer patients, I guess in denial, refuse treatment first or at least delay it, hoping it would just go away. Some even go with 'organic diets' and stuff like that, and refuse chemo.

I hope neither you or I or anyone here would have to make a decision around surgery, but you would be surprised how reasonable, successful, smart people behave in such circumstances.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:42 PM   #93
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It's impossible to separate Steve's rejection of cancer treatment from his brilliance as an innovator and CEO.

A more risk averse guy, with less of a sense of drive and infallibility would have got the operation sooner. But a more risk averse guy wouldn't have taken on the job of Apple CEO for a second time and rebuilt the company.

If a parallel universe was inhabited by 'sensible Steve' who got the cancer op immediately, I'm pretty sure that none of us would have heard of him. What sort of sensible person would continue to work long hours, if they had a great family sitting at home and a billion already in the bank? I wouldn't!

So this 'stupidity' is just the flip side of the coin of Steve's brilliant personality. Yes, he died sooner than he should have - but he also accomplished more during that time than most of us ever will.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:44 PM   #94
frankjl
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly thought so. Still do.
So you thought an individual that neglected his family was perfect?
(Authorized a book so that his kids can know him because he was not there. Source: his words)

Boy are you stupid.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:44 PM   #95
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It's impossible to separate Steve's rejection of cancer treatment from his brilliance as an innovator and CEO.

A more risk averse guy, with less of a sense of drive and infallibility would have got the operation sooner. But a more risk averse guy wouldn't have taken on the job of Apple CEO for a second time and rebuilt the company.

If a parallel universe was inhabited by 'sensible Steve' who got the cancer op immediately, I'm pretty sure that none of us would have heard of him. What sort of sensible person would continue to work long hours, if they had a great family sitting at home and a billion already in the bank? I wouldn't!

So this 'stupidity' is just the flip side of the coin of Steve's brilliant personality. Yes, he died sooner than he should have - but he also accomplished more during that time than most of us ever will.
This...
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:44 PM   #96
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You can say what you want now, but don't assume you know what you'd do in this situation if you haven't actually found yourself in it. There is so much going through the mind of someone with such an unexpected piece of news - I do not think Steve was stupid, merely overwhelmed and confused.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:45 PM   #97
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Life is a crap shoot, Showing his flaws in his health decisions. Steve Jobs could have easily been a Bus driver you would have never heard of but instead, the stars alined for a split second and he fell in the black hole where all of his best attributes worked for his career. Most never fall in that black hole that allows them such success.
Even those that think different!
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:47 PM   #98
iChrist
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Originally Posted by firestarter View Post
It's impossible to separate Steve's rejection of cancer treatment from his brilliance as an innovator and CEO.

A more risk averse guy, with less of a sense of drive and infallibility would have got the operation sooner. But a more risk averse guy wouldn't have taken on the job of Apple CEO for a second time and rebuilt the company.

If a parallel universe was inhabited by 'sensible Steve' who got the cancer op immediately, I'm pretty sure that none of us would have heard of him. What sort of sensible person would continue to work long hours, if they had a great family sitting at home and a billion already in the bank? I wouldn't!

So this 'stupidity' is just the flip side of the coin of Steve's brilliant personality. Yes, he died sooner than he should have - but he also accomplished more during that time than most of us ever will.
Demi-god/paid-user, you stole your thinking from the "Tapestry" episode of TNG. But is perhaps slightly true. Dramatic, but small truth perhaps.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:50 PM   #99
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so sad that he could have survived. He just let the cancer grow for 6 months
Well to be fair... his chances were probably pretty bleak either way. Pancreatic cancer is ruthless. But it certainly would have been the prudent thing to do.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:50 PM   #100
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Well you just never know. My wife's uncle had pancreatic cancer. When discovered, he went with the most aggressive treatment regimen. The treatment killed the cancer but it also destroyed his liver and he ultimately died from liver failure. So the fact that he was "cancer free" was kind of moot.
Your wife's uncle most likely didn't have the same kind of pancreatic cancer as Jobs, the regular one kills 50% within 10 months. The one Jobs had has a lot better survival rates.
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