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Old Jan 13, 2012, 12:44 PM   #26
whooleytoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damir00 View Post
We elect those in power.

Nobody in a democracy can shirk personal responsibility.

If we wanted to, we could do something about this tomorrow. But in reality we don't really want to (and I include myself in this, I'm as "guilty" as everyone else).
No, we couldn't. There are huge social & economic factors influencing the current state of every nation, including China; so it's a bit ambitious to think we could 'fix' them so easily.

How exactly could we do this; and so quickly? Buy different products? They're nearly all manufactured in China, or in other (relatively) low-income nations. And even if we did so, it would just hurt the Chinese economy and its workers.

Elect different officials? How would that help? It's the wealth generators (such as Apple and other industry giants) who call the shots, not governments. Even if there was a politician here who ran on a "Rights of Foreign Workers" campaign (there isn't), and even if he were elected (he wouldn't), what could he do?
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 12:46 PM   #27
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 01:00 PM   #28
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Since when would apple even have a say? Foxconn is contracted by apple right?

This would make about as mucn sense as saying "best buy is allowing FLA to go into Sony's factories to ensure fair labor practices."

Don't get me wrong I'm glad they are looking at it (FLA) but apple doesn't deserve any credit for it.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 02:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damir00 View Post
Nobody in a democracy should shirk personal responsibility.
Fixed it for you. Obviously, most people can, and do, shirk responsibility.

----------

[QUOTE=TWSS37;14154083]It's about time. Quite frankly, the human rights conditions in these factories are worse than Darfur.[/QUOTE}


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Originally Posted by TMay View Post
Quite frankly, you are quite full of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Darfur

One's a condition of overwork and stressful working conditions.
The other is war, starvation and genocide.
They aren't comparable, so stop trying.
Oh, and I downgraded you.
I quite agree. Thousands or millions of people suffering-- the least one can do is come up with an appropriate metaphor. Anything less reeks of laziness, apathy and armchair moralizing.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 02:58 PM   #30
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Another giant leap toward Socialism. No US company would allow this, but it looks like the government will be looking over everyone's (yours and my) sholder soon. That will certainly reduce my stress and preven't my suicide.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 03:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damir00 View Post
We elect those in power.

Nobody in a democracy can shirk personal responsibility.

If we wanted to, we could do something about this tomorrow. But in reality we don't really want to (and I include myself in this, I'm as "guilty" as everyone else).
Oh, Lord. You're laboring under the delusion that the masses have almost any real say about what happens in our country? Hell, our President's so hemmed in by a republican congress that he can't even do anything to help anyone. Every single time there's an initiative to help anyone, Americans included, republicans shoot it down.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 07:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkitect
Cynically I'd say Apple know the rumours over awful working conditions are bad PR and so try to combat that rather than any heartfelt humanitarian concerns, but that being said:

Good move Apple.
Realistically, I would say that the majority of people care more about cheaper iPads than better working conditions for the workers who are half a globe away and don't impact them one bit.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 08:11 PM   #33
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It seems like a missed opportunity for a US company with a unique hit product to not be manufacturing on US soil. Everyone knows that Apple make huge profits on every product sold and I am guessing that whatever the added cost of manufacturing in the US, iPod, iPhone, iPad and Mac sales will still be profitable.

In Walter Isaacson's Steve Jobs biography, it was mentioned that there is a relative lack of qualified engineers in the US, so maybe cost is not the only reason why Apple manufacture in China. Still, they are in a unique position and if they can lead the way, maybe other companies will follow.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 08:30 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol View Post
It seems like a missed opportunity for a US company with a unique hit product to not be manufacturing on US soil. Everyone knows that Apple make huge profits on every product sold and I am guessing that whatever the added cost of manufacturing in the US, iPod, iPhone, iPad and Mac sales will still be profitable.

In Walter Isaacson's Steve Jobs biography, it was mentioned that there is a relative lack of qualified engineers in the US, so maybe cost is not the only reason why Apple manufacture in China. Still, they are in a unique position and if they can lead the way, maybe other companies will follow.
well we more on the job training and more trade school like learning with apprenticeships. Job's dropped out of college due to all the required class B.S.
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 09:17 PM   #35
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Old Jan 13, 2012, 09:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol View Post
It seems like a missed opportunity for a US company with a unique hit product to not be manufacturing on US soil. Everyone knows that Apple make huge profits on every product sold and I am guessing that whatever the added cost of manufacturing in the US, iPod, iPhone, iPad and Mac sales will still be profitable.
I doubt people will be willing to pay double of what apple products cost if they were to be manufactured in US.
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 07:21 AM   #37
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Will we see open unionisation in Apple stores now?
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Old Jan 14, 2012, 11:34 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlgo View Post
It was in the news elsewhere that workers threatened mass suicide (!) in Microsoft's Foxcon plant.

Can you imagine what would happen if there was a Jim Jones-like Kool-aid incident there? It would change everything.
First, threatening mass suicide, and doing it, are two completely different things.

Second, the complaint that these people had is that apparently there were not enough jobs for them. So whenever someone starts claiming that bad working conditions at Foxconn leads to suicides (when the suicide rate in the general US population is FOUR times higher) they should be reminded that for many people, losing their job would be much much worse than a bad job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JHankwitz View Post
Another giant leap toward Socialism. No US company would allow this, but it looks like the government will be looking over everyone's (yours and my) sholder soon. That will certainly reduce my stress and preven't my suicide.
This is really funny. You realise that we are talking about China here, which is a communist country, so most people would think that for them, a "giant leap toward socialism" would be a big step in the right direction.
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Old Jan 15, 2012, 06:36 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Supersonic View Post
Will we see open unionisation in Apple stores now?
I'm sure a socially responsible company wouldn't mind their workers being unionised. Right?
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Old Jan 15, 2012, 08:45 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by thenerdal View Post
I doubt people will be willing to pay double of what apple products cost if they were to be manufactured in US.
I assume what you mean is that Apple products would cost twice as much if they were assembled in the USA. I find that hard to believe, lets do some math.

First, lets assume that in China that people work for free. I don't know what the labor costs of Foxconn are so i'll be lenient.

And lets set a wage for the American worker. I want to go with $12 an hour. AFAIK what we are talking about is mostly relatively simple assembly work. $12/hr sucks, but that's all I would really expect for this.

Ok, now for some prices. Lets say an Apple Laptop costs $1750, half way between the low and the high price. To double the price you would have to put 1750 dollars of labor into the machine. That works out to 146 hours of labor to assemble a laptop. Three and a half weeks of labor on one single laptop computer. For a $600 iPad that's 50 hours, a $300 iPhone that's 25 hours. I find it hard to believe it takes that long.

Alternatively you could go at the problem the other way. Assume that it takes 8 hours to assemble a laptop. That works out to $96 dollars over the current price. If iPads and iPhones take half the time to assemble thats another $48 to their price.

These are crude estimates but I think they show USA assembly would probably not double the cost of Apple products.
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