Lines of Resellers Returning New iPads at Fifth Avenue Apple Store

[88 King]

Originally Posted by dasmb

The UK is excluded from EU laws because it's not part of the EU.

WHAT! I hope you are not British, this is something they teach to primary school kids.

Link to EU member website, UK has been a member for almost 30 years.

[jackhdev]

⁢⁢⁢

[wikus]

Originally Posted by LobsterDK

Naive, youthful narcissism at its finest. Yeah, I knew more than everyone else on the planet at your age as well. Most everyone does. Then the planet taught me some life lessons, as it does to all naive young narcissists.

He probably does, the 'genius' title for apple employees is a joke. Ever dealt with any of them on an actual technical problem? Its not a whole lot of fun. I was treated like an idiot when my Macbook Pro was having display issues when connected to an external monitor. I even brought videos to show the problems i was having at home (because i wasnt going to carry my 24" monitor like a dingbat)... needless to say, the problem was never fixed because it was apple's awful graphics drivers that was the problem.

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Originally Posted by jackhdev

Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad.

Would this be a good time to use the word 'pwned' ?

[almonde]

Originally Posted by dasmb

The UK is excluded from EU laws because it's not part of the EU.

Are you smoking crack, or did I just miss your sarcasm?

[dasmb]

Originally Posted by jackhdev

Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

Can you even legally work most of the hours the store is open?

Here in NY, under the age of 18 you can't work during school hours and you can't work past 9. Can't open, can't close. That qualifies you to work weekends and holidays only.

Why would they hire you when there are plenty of people who fit their scheduling needs? They'd put you through the same training session, regardless, at the end of which you're certified to have enough knowledge to sell macs. I'm sure getting extra knowledge for free has value, but an employee who can't work much doesn't.

[jackhdev]

Originally Posted by dasmb

Can you even legally work most of the hours the store is open?

Here in NY, under the age of 18 you can't work during school hours and you can't work past 9. Can't open, can't close. That qualifies you to work weekends and holidays only.

Why would they hire you when there are plenty of people who fit their scheduling needs? They'd put you through the same training session, regardless, at the end of which you're certified to have enough knowledge to sell macs. I'm sure getting extra knowledge for free has value, but an employee who can't work much doesn't.

I think the rule is 14 or 16, and while I agree with you about scheduling and school, they don't even consider you until you're 18, regardless of the situation.

[sjdigital]

Originally Posted by 88 King

UK has been a member for almost 30 years.

Er...almost 40 years as we joined on 1st January 1973.

[dasmb]

Originally Posted by jackhdev

Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad or help someone with computer problems.

I'm going to put you down because you're complaining you can't work retail when you can write software. This is like Babe Ruth complaining they won't let him sell hot dogs at the park.

[dermeister]

Originally Posted by Kaibelf

Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

You obviously don't understand economics.

When Apple has a "lack in supply of iPad", what we really mean is that there aren't enough iPads to meet demand... AT THAT PRICE. The bold part is crucial. In order to equalize supply and demand (and for Apple to maximize profits), sellers of products normally (throughout most of economic history) adjust the price. So in this case, the price should be higher until there is enough supply and then the price can be reduced to keep enough demand to eat the supply.

But Apple doesn't adjust prices based on availability or use an auction system. Instead they launch with constrained supply, a fixed price, and the result is massive waiting periods and physical line-ups. The amount of time spent by people in line-ups is massive (and it has a time and therefore monetary-value).

The resellers are not doing anything evil or sleazy. They are not "gouging". The technical term is arbitrage. Apple doesn't adjust the price to match market conditions, which means Apple is actually under-selling the iPad during the first weeks with low supply. The resellers are noticing this arbitrage window which is basically money that Apple has left on the table and doing what Apple should have done and making the profit for the trouble. Their profit is the discrepancy between the market-price and the fixed retail price.

Thanks to resellers, customers don't have to wait in line-ups. If you want it, you can have it on the spot - you just have to be willing to bid more than your fellow iPad addict. If you want it so badly you're willing to pay a few hundred bucks more, it can be arranged.

The fact that the resellers are returning the iPad means that Apple has done something right - they didn't move to an auctioning system - and frankly it would feel weird for them to do so - rather, they made sure they had adequate supply built-up this time.

Good for Apple. Good for the customer. The resellers will always find another arbitrage window to close. And that's good for the customer too.

[88 King]

Originally Posted by sjdigital

Er...almost 40 years as we joined on 1st January 1973.

Dammit, I'm going to ask my partner over when I need to count more than 20 the next time.

[FloatingBones]

Even if the scalpers get every penny back, they expended a considerable amount of time and expense with this process. Once the scalpers learn that Apple is fully capable of delivering to the day-one demand for a product, they will stop trying to scalp new product releases.

The marketplace is resilient and fluid. Once an opportunity to make money has been removed, people will move on to some other technique.

One thought: it would have been fun if Apple had some plain-clothes guy who was walking near the line and randomly saying "Boo!" to the nervous people.

[dasmb]

Originally Posted by almonde

Are you smoking crack, or did I just miss your sarcasm?

Cynicism...my point was that many of the policies made in the EU just aren't adopted by the UK, from the Euro to work and immigration policy.

[clarkie604]

Originally Posted by nsayer

That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

I think your mostly correct. But note that a promise to give you 14 days to return the product, no questions asked, can be part of the contract. This actually can be a complicated analysis, but the gist is - what did the parties intend.

[almonde]

Originally Posted by dasmb

Cynicism...my point was that many of the policies made in the EU just aren't adopted by the UK, from the Euro to work and immigration policy.

There's some truth in that

[sclawis300]

Originally Posted by RamboRab

Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

Good luck trying that crap in the states. If it is your policy when you sell it then I bought it under the assumption that I could return it. The policy does not have any stipulations on it. That is not my fault, it is Apples. Why they don't have a limit on the number you can buy, I don't know. 30 seems a bit excessive.

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Originally Posted by BJMRamage

They could have a 5 item return limit per day.

something to still accept them but make it a pain to do.
Track based on Driver's License or ID like Best Buy and pharmacies who can only sell X amount of allergy stuff.

you mean sudafed? Never heard of a limit on allergy meds.

[clarkie604]

Originally Posted by jackhdev

Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad or help someone with computer problems.

Dude, you sound just like a normal teenager.

[dasmb]

Originally Posted by sclawis300

Good luck trying that crap in the states. If it is your policy when you sell it then I bought it under the assumption that I could return it. The policy does not have any stipulations on it. That is not my fault, it is Apples. Why they don't have a limit on the number you can buy, I don't know. 30 seems a bit excessive.

Even if they only allowed one per person, you could still have 30 employees buy one each. And return them all, on 30 separate receipts, in one trip. Seems arbitrary to make any such distinction when there's sufficient supply.

Heck, if I had a company that build iPad apps (oh wait, I do!), I'd want to be able to grab them in bulk. One for each developer, tester and salesman.

[sclawis300]

Originally Posted by Kirsten Hollerd

I have a friend that works at an Apple Store and he said that they were dealing with unscrupulous resellers who returned shrink wrapped "New iPads" that actually had iPad 2's inside. Crazy.

I returned an unopened kindle to walmart. The dude cut it open to verify it was really there.

[jackhdev]

Originally Posted by clarkie604

Dude, you sound just like a normal teenager.

How do you figure? I defended myself. I didn't insult him or mock him in any way, I just stood up for myself.

[clarkie604]

Originally Posted by Kaibelf

Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

Look up the definition for gouging -- you definitely don't know what it means.

Sleazy is in the eye of the beholder. I think spending a day in line in order to buy an expensive product while your Mom works all day to pay for it is a lot more sleazy then spending that time in line to buy something with a plan for legitimate resale.

No price is ridiculous if someone is willing to pay it.

[sclawis300]

Originally Posted by nsayer

WTF?

This is the most basic contract law. Calling it English common law is unfair since it probably goes back to the stone age.

You go to the Apple store.
You agree to pay $599 for an iPad.
The guy in the store gives you the iPad.
You leave.

If there's nothing wrong with the iPad, and we can assume that there's nothing wrong with your $599 since dollars are fungible, then both sides have fulfilled their obligations under the contract. You can't suddenly decide you don't want the iPad anymore and force Apple to dissolve the contract anymore than Apple can retroactively raise the price.

That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

ummmmmmmmm, yes it does. If you sell me something and tell me I have 14 days to return it to you no questions asked and I try to return it to you and you say no, then you are doing exactly what your first paragraph says you cant. does not work like that.

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Originally Posted by jackhdev

Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

there are some old people at my store...clueless, but old.

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Originally Posted by LobsterDK

Naive, youthful narcissism at its finest. Yeah, I knew more than everyone else on the planet at your age as well. Most everyone does. Then the planet taught me some life lessons, as it does to all naive young narcissists.

ha ha, I am so stupid, I thought he was implying he was too old.

[James Craner]

Originally Posted by dermeister

You obviously don't understand economics.

When Apple has a "lack in supply of iPad", what we really mean is that there aren't enough iPads to meet demand... AT THAT PRICE. The bold part is crucial. In order to equalize supply and demand (and for Apple to maximize profits), sellers of products normally (throughout most of economic history) adjust the price. So in this case, the price should be higher until there is enough supply and then the price can be reduced to keep enough demand to eat the supply.

But Apple doesn't adjust prices based on availability or use an auction system. Instead they launch with constrained supply, a fixed price, and the result is massive waiting periods and physical line-ups. The amount of time spent by people in line-ups is massive (and it has a time and therefore monetary-value).

The resellers are not doing anything evil or sleazy. They are not "gouging". The technical term is arbitrage. Apple doesn't adjust the price to match market conditions, which means Apple is actually under-selling the iPad during the first weeks with low supply. The resellers are noticing this arbitrage window which is basically money that Apple has left on the table and doing what Apple should have done and making the profit for the trouble. Their profit is the discrepancy between the market-price and the fixed retail price.

Thanks to resellers, customers don't have to wait in line-ups. If you want it, you can have it on the spot - you just have to be willing to bid more than your fellow iPad addict. If you want it so badly you're willing to pay a few hundred bucks more, it can be arranged.

The fact that the resellers are returning the iPad means that Apple has done something right - they didn't move to an auctioning system - and frankly it would feel weird for them to do so - rather, they made sure they had adequate supply built-up this time.

Good for Apple. Good for the customer. The resellers will always find another arbitrage window to close. And that's good for the customer too.

I am an accountant and I fully understand the concept of supply and demand but as far as I am concerned it's just greed, these people add no value to society in what they do, they hope that they can deny the opportunity to some hard working person, who is unable to get to the store or internet quick enough to buy the product at the price that the manufacturer sets, just to make a quick profit themselves.

[Bossworld]

Originally Posted by jackhdev

Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

They don't want/need 'know it alls' and 'fanboys', they need good sales people and people with good customer service skills.

Went for a group interview at a UK store a couple of years back, looking back I'm glad I didn't get it as I've got a much better paid tech job elsewhere, but there were plenty of people with Apple experience, those who owned lots of Apple products, and even a lad who ran the in-store Apple concession in PC World. None of them got a job at the store. The only thing you offer over other people is the ability to answer questions from people like yourself. How many people go into the stores for that in comparison to the number who just go in to buy the latest gadget?

[jackhdev]

Originally Posted by Bossworld

They don't want/need 'know it alls' and 'fanboys', they need good sales people and people with good customer service skills.

Went for a group interview at a UK store a couple of years back, looking back I'm glad I didn't get it as I've got a much better paid tech job elsewhere, but there were plenty of people with Apple experience, those who owned lots of Apple products, and even a lad who ran the in-store Apple concession in PC World. None of them got a job at the store. The only thing you offer over other people is the ability to answer questions from people like yourself. How many people go into the stores for that in comparison to the number who just go in to buy the latest gadget?

There's the Genius Bar. I can give people an answer to almost any question immediately instead of "I'll be right back." Also, people always ask why they should buy something over something else.

Before I got certified, I had a basic server question, just about setting up a website, and no one could answer it. They were selling Snow Leopard Server for $499 and no one could answer the most basic questions. That's great.

[Dillenger]

Dear Chinese ReSellers, "No Egg Drop Soup FOR YOU!!!"