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Old May 1, 2012, 03:46 PM   #51
TheWheelMan
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Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
On the contrary:

Just like with the Nook, the Kindle app is available for iOS, Android, you name it.

Unlike Apple, neither B&N nor Amazon care if we buy one of their tablets. They just want us as a customer for all their other products

I'd say that the main appeal of the Kindle and Nook are their size and price.
They want to make their money on the content, unlike Apple, who wants to make its money on the hardware AND the content.
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Old May 1, 2012, 04:06 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
All those types of apps do is let you remote control your PC from your iPad. I find trying to manipulate a mouse + keyboard interface from the iPad very clumsy, and I'd rather use my Air for tasks I can't do directly on my iPad. Plus it doesn't work when you don't have an Internet connection, like on the subway.
Point taken, and the more I use it, the more I agree, (day 2 ,30 day trial)
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Old May 1, 2012, 05:49 PM   #53
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Nope. Works great with a Bluetooth keyboard. Do it all the time. A PC is certainly going to be better at that, since they're designed to be used primarily with keyboards.

The iPad is a real computer. It's real. It's a computer. And what exactly is a "natural board"? So you're saying the keyboard the iMac and all the Mac notebooks come with are "unnatural"? And not everyone has space for a "nice, big monitor."

And by the way, you still haven't shown how the iPad is a "toy."
A real computer runs Windows, OSX, or Linux. Not iOS. iOS is smartphone/tablet OS, not a computer OS.

In case you've been living under a rock for the past 15 years, a natural board is split in the middle, with each half angled for more ergonomic typing. I use one on my computer, and I will be getting one at work. What do they live in a shoe box? Even in the tiniest of apartments you would have room for something like a 23" monitor.

You need a computer. You don't need an iPad. Hence, it is a toy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
On the contrary:

Just like with the Nook, the Kindle app is available for...

Unlike Apple, neither B&N nor Amazon care if we buy one of their tablets. They just want us as a customer for all their other products
The app isn't the same. It doesn't support Amazon Prime books. Only purchased.
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Old May 1, 2012, 08:09 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
A real computer runs Windows, OSX, or Linux. Not iOS. iOS is smartphone/tablet OS, not a computer OS.
You need a computer. You don't need an iPad. Hence, it is a toy.

The app isn't the same. It doesn't support Amazon Prime books. Only purchased.
Ah, so unless it's a "full" OS it's a toy?

Don't know where you live, but I live in the real world where a large proportion of computer users use it for web surfing, emails and other light tasks, so the "toy" meets 100% of their computing needs.
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Old May 1, 2012, 09:30 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
A real computer runs Windows, OSX, or Linux. Not iOS. iOS is smartphone/tablet OS, not a computer OS.

In case you've been living under a rock for the past 15 years, a natural board is split in the middle, with each half angled for more ergonomic typing. I use one on my computer, and I will be getting one at work. What do they live in a shoe box? Even in the tiniest of apartments you would have room for something like a 23" monitor.

You need a computer. You don't need an iPad. Hence, it is a toy.
You really have no idea what the ipad is capable of? Your view is slathered in ignorance. I gave just a few examples of what I can do with mine about 20 posts back. Why don't you take a read and find out what this 'toy' can do, because you really don't have the faintest clue.
P.S. You know that whole multitasking thing with numerous windows open simultaneously on a pc or mac? Yeah, the ipad can do that too. What exactly does a real 'OS' do to make it a real OS? Give me a definition.
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:01 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by poloponies View Post
...so the "toy" meets 100% of their computing needs.
Fine. But it's still a toy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0m3ga View Post
You really have no idea what the ipad is capable of? Your view is slathered in ignorance. I gave just a few examples of what I can do with mine about 20 posts back. Why don't you take a read and find out what this 'toy' can do, because you really don't have the faintest clue.
P.S. You know that whole multitasking thing with numerous windows open simultaneously on a pc or mac? Yeah, the ipad can do that too. What exactly does a real 'OS' do to make it a real OS? Give me a definition.
I've used them before, and they're nice for some things, but they are not full computers. Heck, even web browsing isn't that great compared to a real computer. It has a 10" screen, it doesn't have enough screen real estate, even with that Cydia-store multitasking thing.

1. Install whatever you want.
2. User access to the filesystem
3. Full I/O
4. User upgradable I/O and monitors
5. Full OS
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
5. Full OS
The question was "What exactly does a real 'OS' do to make it a real OS?" and I assume in this context "real" and "full" means pretty much the same thing, so you basically just said "What makes an OS a full OS is that it is a full OS." Circular reasoning, non-responsive.

I do agree with your point about a 10 inch screen being pretty limiting, but then, I don't expect a motorcycle to be able to haul my luggage. Okay, so a motorcycle is not a car, but it *is* a vehicle, and it gets me from point A to B, as does a car. I don't think you'll say a motorcycle isn't a real vehicle because it can't hold luggage. It is a limited type of vehicle, but a vehicle nonetheless. In the same way, I consider iPads and other tablets to be a type of computer -- it doesn't do everything a desktop/laptop computer does, but it does fit under a broad definition of what computer is. For instance, here is a a definiton from wikipedia:

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
A computer is a programmable machine designed to automatically carry out a sequence of arithmetic or logical operations. The particular sequence of operations can be changed readily, allowing the computer to solve more than one kind of problem.
And I think iPad is a computer, according to this definition.

Last edited by Night Spring; May 1, 2012 at 10:21 PM.
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:29 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Fine. But it's still a toy.
Oh them Airline Pilots playing with toys in the cockpit again..

All those Doctors and Nurses ignoring patient care killing time with toys.

And them CEO's they are the worse. Isn't golf enough of a game, why do they
still have to drag those Apple toys into the board rooms.

With over 50% Market share we could have saved a bundle and given them all Rubik's Cubes.

Whats is the Enterprise coming to.
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Fine. But it's still a toy.



I've used them before, and they're nice for some things, but they are not full computers. Heck, even web browsing isn't that great compared to a real computer. It has a 10" screen, it doesn't have enough screen real estate, even with that Cydia-store multitasking thing.

1. Install whatever you want.
2. User access to the filesystem
3. Full I/O
4. User upgradable I/O and monitors
5. Full OS
Install whatever you want? Try installing an .exe file on a Mac and see what happens. I guess OSX isn't a real OS. By the way, I can put any file, in any format on my iPad. Whether it executes or not is OS dependent, and that doesn't change regardless if you are on a phone, tablet or computer. ALL programs are OS limited.

User access to the file system. Yep. No problem. You not knowing this tells me exactly how ignorant you are with regards to the ipad. As I said before, with iFile or via ssh, you can access, add, delete, move, cut, copy and paste any file or folder from anywhere on the OS. Exactly like on a pc.

Full input/output? There is no need for ports, if this is what you are referring to? Everything is done wirelessly in my case. I take photo's with my phone and it is auto-synced to dropbox and then automatically links with my ipad. Have a SLR 'real' camera? No problem. New SD cards are out with wireless sync built in. I want to send someone a file from my ipad, i can do it several ways, all wirelessly through dropbox, google docs, skydrive, email, sms, bump, and so on. Want to watch a movie or tv show from my ipad? I have a few ATV2's and an ATV3 to watch all my stuff via a big screen tv. And I can download any video file format and watch it in 1080p. Monitors and cords are 20th century technology. We've moved on. You talk about adding monitors. I laugh at that.

Full OS??? I don't think you grasp the concept of what an OS is. You can't even define a 'real' OS,for me.

As I have pointed out here, there is very little you know regarding the capabilities of the iPad and an experienced user. What I have written here, barely scratches the surface.
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Old May 1, 2012, 11:18 PM   #60
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I think I've seen all these same arguments before. Anybody remember when some PC users used to call Macs "toys"? (maybe some still do)
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Old May 1, 2012, 11:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
A real computer runs Windows, OSX, or Linux. Not iOS. iOS is smartphone/tablet OS, not a computer OS.
iOS is a computer OS, by any definition that isn't specifically designed to exclude it. Smart phones are computers. Tablets are computers. Just making up a new, exclusionary definition for "real computer" doesn't alter the actual definition of it.

Quote:
In case you've been living under a rock for the past 15 years,
Unnecessary, but whatever.

Quote:
a natural board is split in the middle, with each half angled for more ergonomic typing.
My apologies. I always just called those "split keyboards," or "ergonomic keyboards." I certainly haven't used one I would call "nice." They tend to have those godawful, mushy dome keyswitches. And anyway, despite the fact that I can't see why you'd want to, you can certainly use one on an iPad. Any Bluetooth keyboard will work out of the box, and any USB keyboard can be plugged into the bottom port via a simple adapter.

Quote:
What do they live in a shoe box? Even in the tiniest of apartments you would have room for something like a 23" monitor.
It's not necessarily a question of being able to fit a 23" monitor physically into your home. Sometimes it's a question of, "do I make room for an extra desk with a stationary computer, or do I make room for something else that's important to me?"

Quote:
You need a computer. You don't need an iPad. Hence, it is a toy.
For the things the average person "needs" a computer for, an iPad will do them just fine. Next?

Quote:
1. Install whatever you want.
There's no way in which PCs meet this that the iPad doesn't.
Quote:
2. User access to the filesystem
Anyone who wants this can have it; there's a really great free app called 'iPhone explorer' if you don't want to jailbreak, or 'iFile' if you do. But in reality, few people actually need this; for typical users, it unnecessarily complicates things.
Quote:
3. Full I/O
"Full" is incredibly vague. iPad has I/O. It doesn't have the same I/O that PCs have. And every PC has different I/O options. Doesn't make them any less "full."
Quote:
4. User upgradable I/O
Almost no laptop, and only tower desktops fits this description. YOu can't just add USB 3 ports to old machines. If what you actually mean to say is external storage, there are a zillion different ways to store things external from iPads.

Quote:
and monitors
Can't upgrade laptop monitors either, sorry. And again, if you mean external monitors, you can use external monitors for iPads too; wired or wireless. Ever heard of AirPlay mirroring? Or the VGA adapter? Both are pretty fantastic when it comes to giving presentations.

Quote:
5. Full OS
Meaningless term.

Last edited by Meyvn; May 1, 2012 at 11:43 PM.
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Old May 1, 2012, 11:55 PM   #62
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So the fire is catching up? I guess the iPad must really be feeling the HEAT now.. (might explain why people are saying its running hot now
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Old May 2, 2012, 01:08 AM   #63
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I have both iPads & Kindles due to their distinct differences.

My iPad 3 has a very nice display as we all know, yet my Kindle is still more comfortable for reading. Now before you attack, notice I didn't say better, I said more comfortable.

The elements which make a Fire a superior e-reader are it's E-Ink, font style & paper like background. Then there's the smaller form factor & lighter weight. Amazon has crafted the ideal combination of features, all of which make it the best reader I've used.

In addition Amazon had millions of frequent customers long before either of these devices existed. That's why it's a natural for their avid readers to choose Kindle as their reader of choice. In my circle of friends the predominant choice is to own both. To those unfamiliar with Kindles, you'd be surprised how many people own both.

Conversely for completely different usage the iPad has a superior feature set.

About the only thing puzzling is why iPad fans are so sensitive and hateful towards a completely different device.

Those who condemn the fire, must prefer to be closed minded.
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Old May 2, 2012, 02:31 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ixodes View Post
I have both iPads & Kindles due to their distinct differences.

My iPad 3 has a very nice display as we all know, yet my Kindle is still more comfortable for reading. Now before you attack, notice I didn't say better, I said more comfortable.

The elements which make a Fire a superior e-reader are it's E-Ink, font style & paper like background. Then there's the smaller form factor & lighter weight. Amazon has crafted the ideal combination of features, all of which make it the best reader I've used.

In addition Amazon had millions of frequent customers long before either of these devices existed. That's why it's a natural for their avid readers to choose Kindle as their reader of choice. In my circle of friends the predominant choice is to own both. To those unfamiliar with Kindles, you'd be surprised how many people own both.

Conversely for completely different usage the iPad has a superior feature set.

About the only thing puzzling is why iPad fans are so sensitive and hateful towards a completely different device.

Those who condemn the fire, must prefer to be closed minded.
Well, the Fire doesn't use eink its just an IPS panel, which is why many still consider the old Kindles as superior readers.

I don't agree that these are two completely different devices; having one def diminishes the usefulness of the other. They can perform all the exact same functions -- the big difference is just that one is smaller and cheaper.

However, I do agree that many of the Apple fans here are way too defensive. Honestly, who really cares which is selling more? Thats only something for Apple and Amazon to be concerned with.
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Old May 2, 2012, 09:53 AM   #65
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Install whatever you want? Try installing an .exe file on a Mac and see what happens. I guess OSX isn't a real OS. ...ALL programs are OS limited.
That point went over your head. The point is that it is an open ecosystem, if my friend codes an app, I can install it whether Apple allows it or not. I can have root access if I want it. I can install software to deal with any common file type on a Mac, unlike the iPad.

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Originally Posted by 0m3ga View Post
User access to the file system.
There's no user accessible file browser on the iPad. Mac has Finder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0m3ga View Post
Full input/output? There is no need for ports, if this is what you are referring to? Everything is done wirelessly in my case.
An iPad can't be a USB host to a 3TB hard drive, or connect to devices via Firewire, or connect to a wired LAN via gigabit ethernet. The only standard port is has is for headphones/speakers.

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Originally Posted by 0m3ga View Post
You talk about adding monitors. I laugh at that.
Why? Right now, I have an external 23" 1080p Dell display plus my MBP's internal, and soon I'm going to a triple Dell setup, with the widescreen in the middle, and two 17" wings. Try doing THAT with an iPad. You get an effective screen real estate of 1024x768.

Also, there is no storage expandability on the iPad. My MBP right now has 800GB of internal storage plus 6TB of external. I'm going to pare down to 5TB of external, but eventually I will upgrade to 1.25TB of internal. Try that on an iPad.

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Originally Posted by Meyvn View Post
They tend to have those godawful, mushy dome keyswitches.
That's one issue. Mine is mushy, but I haven't found a natural version of anything like DAS Keyboard. If I did, and the contour was as good as the Microsoft one, I'd switch.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyvn View Post
It's not necessarily a question of being able to fit a 23" monitor physically into your home. Sometimes it's a question of, "do I make room for an extra desk with a stationary computer, or do I make room for something else that's important to me?"
Computer is a pretty important part. Depending on where I end up living, I am probably going to do two triple-monitor setups, my personal machine (MBP), and my workshop machine (I'll get a cheap i5 tower with Win7). Screen real estate is a good thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyvn View Post
"Full" is incredibly vague. iPad has I/O. It doesn't have the same I/O that PCs have. And every PC has different I/O options. Doesn't make them any less "full."
Gigabit Ethernet, Firewire, USB 2.0 host, SD slot, mic in/out. I.e. what my MBP has.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyvn View Post
Can't upgrade laptop monitors either, sorry. And again, if you mean external monitors, you can use external monitors for iPads too; wired or wireless. Ever heard of AirPlay mirroring? Or the VGA adapter? Both are pretty fantastic when it comes to giving presentations.
Not extended desktop, and the second monitor doesn't have touch anyways, so it doesn't make much sense. Yes, I've used AirPlay mirroring. Gimmicky. I use my MBP for presentations, thank you very much. It actually can open .pptx files properly.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
The question was "What exactly does a real 'OS' do to make it a real OS?" .
1. user accessible file system
2. open installation of software
3. add on 3rd party hardware through standard ports

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
I do agree with your point about a 10 inch screen being pretty limiting, but then, I don't expect a motorcycle to be able to haul my luggage.
By the definition of running some sort of OS, and having CPU, hardware, some form of I/O, yes it is computer. Just like a Motorola DCX3400 is a computer, or a heavily-skinned feature-phone is a computer. The only material difference there is user-installed apps, although boxes like TiVo are moving that way to a certain extent.
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:09 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ixodes View Post
I have both iPads & Kindles due to their distinct differences.
The elements which make a Fire a superior e-reader are it's E-Ink, font style & paper like background. Then there's the smaller form factor & lighter weight. Amazon has crafted the ideal combination of features, all of which make it the best reader I've used.
You have a e-ink Kindle Fire??? Prototype?
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:10 AM   #67
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I don't use any amazon related services, am I the only one Out there who doesn't ?
Same here. I haven't bought anything at Amazon in several years. I must travel with a different crowd because I haven't even seen a KF yet.

It will be interesting to see the quarterly numbers for this year. Wasn't there a report recently that Amazon had cut back on on component orders for the KF?
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:27 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ixodes View Post
About the only thing puzzling is why iPad fans are so sensitive and hateful towards a completely different device.
In real life, they're not that way. Like you, I know many iPad owners who also have an eReader and/or are open to multiple technologies from multiple vendors.

It's just that this forum has a lot of youngsters posting on it, and thus we get all their associated melodrama
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:52 AM   #69
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In real life, they're not that way. Like you, I know many iPad owners who also have an eReader and/or are open to multiple technologies from multiple vendors.

It's just that this forum has a lot of youngsters posting on it, and thus we get all their associated melodrama
I'm getting an iPad 3 32GB Verizon soon, and I also have a Kindle 3G, a Kindle Fire, an iPhone, and Macbook Pro, and a Windows PC. I'm a former Android phone user. I just buy whatever the best tech is. It happens for the larger tablets, iPad is it.
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:56 AM   #70
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You need a computer. You don't need an iPad. Hence, it is a toy.
No, you don't need a computer. That makes it a toy too by your definition.
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:22 AM   #71
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I would say the Kindle is selling so good because it cost MUCH less.
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:24 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
An iPad can't be a USB host to a 3TB hard drive, or connect to devices via Firewire, or connect to a wired LAN via gigabit ethernet. The only standard port is has is for headphones/speakers.
Personally, I can't wait until we move to full wireless connectivity so I can stop tripping over all the cables connecting our computers to various peripherals. FireWire, wired LAN, and hard drives needing cables to be connected to the network are all yesterday's technology. Not to mention an iPad is a mobile device, and hooking it up to all these wires defeats its whole purpose. You obviously don't even have much use for a laptop, the way you go on about attaching all this stuff to your computer. No wonder you can't see the point of an iPad and think it's a toy. But as I see it, the iPad not having wired connectivity is like when Apple ditched the floppy drive. People whined and moaned about however would they manage without floppy drives, but look where we are now, the world has moved on. I fully expect the same thing will happen to most wired peripherals in the next few years.
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:24 AM   #73
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You need a computer. You don't need an iPad. Hence, it is a toy.
I think if you just stop confusing "You" with "I", this problem will just go away.
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:31 AM   #74
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I would say the Kindle is selling so good because it cost MUCH less.
The kindle fire is also a pretty decent device. Most people who crap on it never used one. For email, browsing and light media consumption it works great. Fast, nice screen and a very intuitive interface. For the price if you do not need the Apple ecosystem and want a low cost tablet that manages the basics very well the Fire is a pretty smart choice.
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:48 AM   #75
BiggAW
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Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
Personally, I can't wait until we move to full wireless connectivity so I can stop tripping over all the cables connecting our computers to various peripherals. FireWire, wired LAN, and hard drives needing cables to be connected to the network are all yesterday's technology. Not to mention an iPad is a mobile device, and hooking it up to all these wires defeats its whole purpose. You obviously don't even have much use for a laptop, the way you go on about attaching all this stuff to your computer. No wonder you can't see the point of an iPad and think it's a toy. But as I see it, the iPad not having wired connectivity is like when Apple ditched the floppy drive. People whined and moaned about however would they manage without floppy drives, but look where we are now, the world has moved on. I fully expect the same thing will happen to most wired peripherals in the next few years.
The stuff still needs to be stored somewhere. I have a laptop now for school, but when I'm at home, it pretty much stays docked unless I travel overnight. Then, I can take my whole computer with me. If I need to go online when I'm in another room, I usually just use the iPhone, or walk upstairs to my desk if I need a real computer.

We are going more wireless, but that doesn't mean that iPads are going to take over for computers. No one is whining, I'm simply saying an iPad doesn't replace a real computer. Wired is always better than wireless, but wireless will end up winning out for the most part, because most homes aren't wired with CAT-5e for gigabit. Home is partly wired with CAT-5e (we put it in after the fact), but when I move out, I'll have to use 802.11ac and/or MoCA, as I won't have CAT-5e for hardwired gigabit lines.

However, I want to eventually rehab an older house to my liking, and then I will have at least two QS-RG6, and two CAT-6 cables in each room, if not significantly more, plus CAT-6 cables dedicated for PoE Wifi APs and security cameras, among other things. We will always need wires.

The iPad has little need for wired connectivity, as it is not a real computer. Other than extremely dense wifi environments where wifi doesn't work well, where wifi isn't use for security reasons, or places where wifi is illegal, I don't see much need for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklehead View Post
I think if you just stop confusing "You" with "I", this problem will just go away.
No one needs an iPad. People want iPads.
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