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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:14 AM   #51
RedWeasel
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Originally Posted by acidblue View Post
It's amazing to me that hardware companies, such as AuthenTec, who produce actual tangible products are purchased for significantly less than some silly, single shot app (like silly photo apps, and wow there was a pun in there) development companies.
Well, one was bought by Apple and the other by Facebook.
One of the two sucks big time at any rate.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:16 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidblue View Post
Please note that I am a professional software engineer...

It's amazing to me that hardware companies, such as AuthenTec, who produce actual tangible products are purchased for significantly less than some silly, single shot app (like silly photo apps, and wow there was a pun in there) development companies.
If it makes you feel any better, Instagram was purchased more for its massive number of users than its software technology.

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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:16 AM   #53
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Not replacing your credit cards... you're WALLET

Apple realizes (I think) that the goal is not replacing a credit card. That's a short-sighted goal. Apple WILL replace the credit card, of course, but as a stop-gap measure. Swiping your iPhone will charge to your iTunes account, which is tied to whatever credit card you want. Eventually this middle-man route also leaves Apple to negotiate better deals or remove the credit card companies altogether and you'll not notice (or care) because the system will be the same; you'll still be charging to your AppleID. But, like I said, this is all stop-gap.

The real goal is to replace the entire wallet and maybe even my keys. Why replace the credit card when I still have to carry around my driver's license, passport, and other IDs? I'd still have to carry a wallet anyway.This is a longer term goal, but significantly better. Your phone trusting that you are you is the first step.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:21 AM   #54
deconstruct60
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Originally Posted by pesc View Post
Required reading for this who think a fingerprint scanner will "improve security".
...
Clue: Your fingerprints are not secrets. You are spreading thousands of copies of them every day for anyone interested in gathering them.
Crappy readers are like crappy locks and crappy crypto.

The reader can read more than just a surface artifacts of a fingerprint. It will be much harder to duplicate the living skin underneath a valid fingerprint.

The Authen Tec scanners measure the "live layer" of the finger. Likely a variation on using Ultrasonic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerp...ion#Ultrasonic

This means you'd need an very accurate 3D model of the "cloned" fingerprint to make it work. Mix in a temperature sensor ( IR reader to detect cold plastic clones or the movie gimmick of chopped off fingers ) and it is pretty good "one factor" in a "two factor" identification system.


P.S. this is similar to "face detection" unlock. A simple recognition is weak. A recognition that can discern a flat picture of a face from a real 3D face is are in different "ball parks" as far as effectiveness.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:25 AM   #55
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Biometric identification is our future. Credit cards are just numbers issued to ID you. Drivers licenses and passports add a photo to the number. None of these are very good at really confirming your identity for purchases, access to an ATM, or entering a country.

Biometric ID at the phone can add a layer of security to entry PINs and passwords. I wish there was retinal scans built in to the phone. I saw a demo of an ATM using retinal scans. The ATM instantly recognized you and displayed your name. Very cool. No cards needed but it did want a PIN for extra security.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by naveah View Post
Do you guys think this has any chance of making it into the 2012 iPhone? Usually, it takes Apple some time to assimilate their acquisitions into their products (e.g., the maps companies or Siri). Maybe the 2013 iPhone?
Apple may have worked out a deal to include biometric chips in their phones before they acquired the company. So, it may be possible that the iPhone 5, due out in October, will have this technology built in.

I believe that Apple will also build these chips into their glass trackpads on MacBook Pro systems, as well as Magic Trackpads that are used on iMac and Mac Pro desktop systems, so that users can perform multitouch gestures to log into their computers. Very cool stuff.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:28 AM   #57
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They will build fingerprint sensors into the trackpads of Macs and the touchscreens of iOS devices.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:29 AM   #58
iSee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidblue View Post
Please note that I am a professional software engineer...

It's amazing to me that hardware companies, such as AuthenTec, who produce actual tangible products are purchased for significantly less than some silly, single shot app (like silly photo apps, and wow there was a pun in there) development companies. There is so much more needed in the engineering of hardware, and the accompanying software than there is in a stupid 'social app'. Hardware companies have to deal with real world engineering, real-world supply chain management etc. Where silly little software companies can just offload all the distribution off to the cloud. An app company can make a silly picture taking app that distorts your photos and they are all of a sudden worth a billion dollars; crazy.

/rant.

But, all-in-all, it's a cool acquisition. Hopefully they do something cool with it.
The reason those "silly" and "stupid" scocial apps are worth a lot is because they have managed to (seeming at least) acquire a resource much more valuable than the ability to produce physical products: eyeball-hours / month. That is, they've seemingly figured out how to get a lot of people to stare at a rectangle of space for long pediods of time and repeatedly -- the contents of which a company can (partially) control.

I don't think Instagram was worth $1B either, but it's silly and stupid to call what they did silly and stupid. Also, Instagram managed to acquire all those eyeball-hours / month extremely efficiently ($ spent per eyeball), which I assume helped them get that crazy valuation.

edit: oops no less than Arn himself beat me to it (and said it more concisely as well).
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by MisterK View Post
Apple realizes (I think) that the goal is not replacing a credit card. That's a short-sighted goal. Apple WILL replace the credit card, of course, but as a stop-gap measure. Swiping your iPhone will charge to your iTunes account, which is tied to whatever credit card you want. Eventually this middle-man route also leaves Apple to negotiate better deals or remove the credit card companies altogether and you'll not notice (or care) because the system will be the same; you'll still be charging to your AppleID. But, like I said, this is all stop-gap.

The real goal is to replace the entire wallet and maybe even my keys. Why replace the credit card when I still have to carry around my driver's license, passport, and other IDs? I'd still have to carry a wallet anyway.This is a longer term goal, but significantly better. Your phone trusting that you are you is the first step.
This talk of Biometrics have been going around in private and government sectors for years. It was obvious that NFC was going to happen eventually, so that being said, Apple will NOT be the first to implement it because the Japanese/Europeans were ahead of that curve.

If I'm not mistaken, Docomo of Japan had that for some time and are doing hybrid versions of NFC this coming year, if they have'nt already.

This is why Apple decided to join in the NFC bandwagon using this biometric tech. I don't think it's the only security firm to use finger scanners. It's not that hard to figure out that not having a finger scanner would cause huge problems with iphone owners with children. It's to prevent tampering with the 'digital wallet'.

The biometrics thing is not new as it has been around for a while but not in the public eye. Government/Military/Private sectors already have them, I'm quite sure, for security clearance reasons.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by DTphonehome View Post
Seems like a high price for what doesn't look like a particularly unique technology. Am I missing something?
You are overlooking the fact that this is Apple's looking at how they can best integrate it with their current tech. They will find some what to make it unique and let people wonder why it was done that way before.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JHankwitz View Post
Same thing as Apple has always done. Taken new and/or existing technology and making it useable and affordable, and incorporating it into everyday use by the masses. This has usually been a winning business model for Apple.
But it is both usable and affordable and available in every day products already...thats the point. Unlike the music, phone and tablet markets, this really is already as best as it'll ever be...it's fingerprint scanning. All Apple can do is add it to their own products, and give it a few fancy uses (e.g allow a fingerprint scan to pay for something) - aside from that, there really is absolutely zip that can be done to improve it.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:40 AM   #62
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So instead of worrying about a computer hacker stealing my digits, I have to worry about some guy with a butcher knife stealing my digits?
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:45 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by kalsta View Post
Now that's a great idea! Er… the fingerprint capturing I mean. Now all you have to do is address privacy concerns, get it government approved, coordinate with police systems and databases… Yep, I can see it coming to the iPhone in 2024.
and wait when the first discussions happen that it's not failsafe.

It is possible to hack off somebody's finger to use it.

We'll see a lot of people that can't point by then:-)
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:46 AM   #64
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So instead of worrying about a computer hacker stealing my digits, I have to worry about some guy with a butcher knife stealing my digits?
Just like every sci-fi movie made in the last 30 years where they steal someone's eye, fingers or whatever to get access to the super-high-tech-secure room.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:50 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Gasu E. View Post
But, in this case the hash would be coming from a physical chip hardwired inside the phone. So the hacker would also need to somehow emulate that as well.
So far, even the best finger print scanners on the market can be faked out by a replica finger print molded in gelatin. The absolute best ones require the gelatin to be slightly moist (licked), and warm. Those aren't exactly a high barrier to surpass. Especially since the person trying to get into a phone 'protected' by a fingerprint scanner is very likely to have a copy of the necessary fingerprint, all over the outside of that very same phone.

Biometrics are *passable* for identification, but *lousy* for authentication.

For clarification:
Identification = "This is who I claim to be."
Authentication = "Here's proof I am who I claim to be."

Identification is your user id, authentication is your proof that the user id actually belongs to you.
Biometrics being used for identification are fine. Biometrics being used for authentication are blatant misuses of technology, and provide a permanently broken security model.
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Last edited by tbrinkma; Jul 27, 2012 at 09:57 AM.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:01 AM   #66
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They do a lot more than fingerprint sofware/hardware.

http://www.authentec.com/News/ViewNe...droid-and.aspx

Reuters just speculated that's what Apple wants is their fingerprint technology. For all we know it could be their content protection technology they use for IPTV and they want to use this in the new Apple TV.

I wouldn't say for sure this means they're investigating using fingerprint scanners. It could be some little piece of technology that Apple wants more and the happen to get fingerprint technology with it.
THIS.

Authentec do a lot of video DRM work for film studios and broadcasters.

Much more likely than ****** fingerprint scanners.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:05 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by DTphonehome View Post
Seems like a high price for what doesn't look like a particularly unique technology. Am I missing something?
It must be a big deal considering that Apple typically makes much smaller acquisitions.... atleast they didnt pay $1Billion for a photo app!!! (coughinstagramcoughfacebookcaough) haha...
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:05 AM   #68
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As it stands NFC payment is stupid. Anyone could steal your phone and buy stuff with it. A way to secure it is with finger print technology. If your finger print it 'active' the payment will go through.
By that same logic, credit cards payment is stupid.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:06 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by sbrhwkp3 View Post
Does the blonde come with it?
you wouldn't know what to do with her even if she did.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:07 AM   #70
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still cant believe that instagram was bought for 1 billion when companies like this actually have a useful purpose get bought for much less
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:07 AM   #71
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I imagine that when purchasing something you'll touch the NFC scanner and have your finger on the sensor to validate it.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:09 AM   #72
lzyprson
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Originally Posted by The Phazer View Post
THIS.

Authentec do a lot of video DRM work for film studios and broadcasters.

Much more likely than ****** fingerprint scanners.


This is pretty big news...
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by iSee View Post
The reason those "silly" and "stupid" scocial apps are worth a lot is because they have managed to (seeming at least) acquire a resource much more valuable than the ability to produce physical products: eyeball-hours / month. That is, they've seemingly figured out how to get a lot of people to stare at a rectangle of space for long pediods of time and repeatedly -- the contents of which a company can (partially) control.
Instagram and a whole lot of these social apps are silly and stupid. Eyeball-hours / month only mean something if advertisers connect with the eyeballs--and so far there is no proof that social network/in-app adverts lead to significant purchasing behavior. Hence GM and other companies that have given up on FB and the like. I agree with you that Instagram is not worth $1 billion. Far from it.

But, back on topic: using biometrics like this sounds promising. However, I remain wary, given the fact that companies and the govt have excellent track records of abusing such info.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:10 AM   #74
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Seems like a high price for what doesn't look like a particularly unique technology. Am I missing something?
I'm sure AuthenTec has patents on their technology. Patents are the golden goose.

Mark
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 10:11 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by MisterK View Post
Apple realizes (I think) that the goal is not replacing a credit card. That's a short-sighted goal. Apple WILL replace the credit card, of course, but as a stop-gap measure. Swiping your iPhone will charge to your iTunes account, which is tied to whatever credit card you want. Eventually this middle-man route also leaves Apple to negotiate better deals or remove the credit card companies altogether and you'll not notice (or care) because the system will be the same; you'll still be charging to your AppleID. But, like I said, this is all stop-gap.

The real goal is to replace the entire wallet and maybe even my keys. Why replace the credit card when I still have to carry around my driver's license, passport, and other IDs? I'd still have to carry a wallet anyway.This is a longer term goal, but significantly better. Your phone trusting that you are you is the first step.
Apple is NOT replacing credit cards.....EVER.

If i'm at home and I want the lady to run to the store and pick up something, I'll give her my debit card and tell her my passcode so she can purchase it. If all my cards are replaced by my phone, i'm not going to want to hand her my phone to go make a purchase when my phone contains EVERYTHING about me on it.
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