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dmelgar

macrumors 68000
Apr 29, 2005
1,587
160
Good, spend some time with it.
I said I did.

I could go on for pages, BUT, let me make it simple. Your looking at the surface wrong, just wrong. its like thinking the iPad is a laptop replacement, it just isn't and the surface isnt' so much a laptop replacement, but an amazing suppelment imo. The best yet, couch, or bed, turn the TV on, and use it as a tablet, I have the best of both worlds. I can't do that with my Laptop, or an MBA, and I can't do it with an iPad, because the work I was doing, wouldn't have gotten done in the first place.
The point is its a compromised as a laptop and tablet. Maybe it works in your case. I thought you were using your giant laptop in the field? If you don't need a laptop just use an iPad which is a better tablet, or a laptop if you need a laptop.
i can believe that folks will find scenarios where having a mediocre laptop and tablet is preferable to having to carry around two devices.

I think you don't realize. The keyboard is attached magneticly, it has a virtual **** keyboard just like the iPad, if you dont want to " lug around the keyboard " which weighs next to nothing, don't take it with you. leave it at home, it offers choice.
Of course I realize. How can anyone see it and not realize its detachable. Its practically the only thing Microsoft talked about during the kickoff and in their ads. They almost never mention touch but they love their keyboard. Can't forget that magical click it makes. Worth the price right there.

But without the keyboard, the Windows (non-metro) mode is practically unusable because all the touch areas are so tiny.

And Windows RT looks like its pretty good if I'm honest, its a step above iOS, which can't even multiask, my GF has an iPad 3. Don't get me wrong, that screen is awesome, and its built so so so so so good, ( so is the surface ), but the fact is, I can be typing an email.......then I get a text....read the text....go back to the email App....and all my text is gone...huh?
Apparently not very educated yourself if you don't understand that iOS does multitask. The particular scenario you mention may be an issue, but don't misrepresent the entire operating system.

Remeber, Microsoft is the king of software.
Microsoft is the king of 20 year old Windows software that they forced on consumers by strong arming PC vendors. They got into trouble as a monopoly for it

Now, maybe thats how your computing life turned out, but I've NEVER had a Virus on my 98/ME/XP/2000/Vista/7 machines, ever not one. Not ever, and they install updates when I'm asleep at 4am.
I worked for IBM for many years and had to constantly deal with systems being taken over to apply security patches. Security guidelines there force everyone run to a very stringent antivirus. Both at work and at home I have run into viruses. Windows inherent insecurity from Active-X made it hard to deal with. I'm sure they've improved security in Vista/7.
And OSX does driver updates, OS updates, and it has anti virus built in. And my Macs over the past 10 years have spend a decent amount of time in the Apple store being repaired ( I hate you iMac G5, Power Mac G5, 2011 imac, pismo, your all unreliable ****. But I love you anyway )
Please. Not sounding very credible. Comparing Apple's "antivirus" which is a tiny program that does practically nothing to a Symantec antivirus scan is not even close.
 

MRU

macrumors Penryn
Aug 23, 2005
25,368
8,948
a better place
Problem is we don't know what technology the Surface pen is and how the quality really is. It could be as good as wacom is, or it could be a sold work in progress like N-Trig. The Modbook on the other hand is using the tried and true wacom digitizer, but is bogged down by its high price, and Intel cpu.

Yes this is true. Will certainly wait and see what it reviews like and hands on with the surface pen.
 

coldmack

macrumors 6502
Dec 26, 2008
382
0
Yes this is true. Will certainly wait and see what it reviews like and hands on with the surface pen.

I really hope the pen turns out good and popular so we can finally get native support from Apple, because taking notes on a capacitive pen is just not as elegant a digitzer solution.
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
2,530
10
NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
I said I did.

How much time? I just bought a surface RT, I honestly thought I would hate it, cave and go buy an iPad for my tablet needs, but I'm starting love and love it more and more.

The point is its a compromised as a laptop and tablet. .

It doesn't make any compromises.

I thought you were using your giant laptop in the field?

I do, but when the work day is over, and I'm in some random city, and the work is done, I don't feel like lugging around a 13 pound laptop, so the surface, has the same WIndows like Feel that I know and love. And its tiny, so I can use it for my personal use.

Hell, I already bought yet another EU power adapter kit, and one for asia to, so my laptop and surface will work no matter where I go.

you don't need a laptop just use an iPad which is a better tablet,

That is an opinion,. I've used iPads before, and as I said my GF has an iPad 3, and its a nice machine. But for me, the surface works better as a light laptop, and as a tablet, it has alreadyd been proving to work very well.

When the iPad comes with a badass keyboard/kickstand/OS that can multi task, I'll be interested.

i can believe that folks will find scenarios where having a mediocre laptop and tablet is preferable to having to carry around two devices.

The surface RT IS a medicore laptop when you want it to be, and its ALSO a tablet when you want it to be, thats the idea.

Of course I realize. How can anyone see it and not realize its detachable. Its practically the only thing Microsoft talked about during the kickoff and in their ads. They almost never mention touch but they love their keyboard. Can't forget that magical click it makes. Worth the price right there.

Good.

Yes, its a GOOD feature, its a very very very well done feature. The kickstand as well, super well done. Keyboard and kickstands are done better than any iPad case you can get.

But without the keyboard, the Windows (non-metro) mode is practically unusable because all the touch areas are so tiny.

No ****.

Thats why we have Metro, thats the entire idea behind the new windows, you can have your classic desktop when your mouse and type cover are plugged in, and get real work done.

OR, when you want to relax and consume content, snap off the keyboard, unplug the mouse ( or not if your using the trackpad which is VERY good btw ). Lay down on your bed or couch, and consume away.

I've already used it for that, and for what is is, a hybrid? it the best out atm.

Apparently not very educated yourself if you don't understand that iOS does multitask. The particular scenario you mention may be an issue, but don't misrepresent the entire operating system.

It is IMPOSSIBLE on iOS to have more than one program on the screen at the same time, hence, no multi tasking.

Microsoft is the king of 20 year old Windows software that they forced on consumers by strong arming PC vendors. They got into trouble as a monopoly for it

That hasn't gone on for over a decade, and if Macs are so much better, why does the Windows PC still exist? Windows is a good OS. And that " strong arming " ended well over a decade ago.

I worked for IBM for many years and had to constantly deal with systems being taken over to apply security patches. Security guidelines there force everyone run to a very stringent antivirus. Both at work and at home I have run into viruses. Windows inherent insecurity from Active-X made it hard to deal with. I'm sure they've improved security in Vista/7.

I still work for Intercourse Blue Man, and we don't have alot of issues with anything XP and up, yes, Active X is a nesscary evil, but they cleaned up their act in that aspect, we currently don't run anything outside of the Microsoft anti virus system, at least in my department ( I work in simulations for a few departments, I've seen deep gene in person, sex :D )

Please. Not sounding very credible. Comparing Apple's "antivirus" which is a tiny program that does practically nothing to a Symantec antivirus scan is not even close.

Sure it is, and you know it is, it works in very much the same way Windows Antivirus does, it just doesn't have as much to do because of, theres not alot of macs in existence.

Virus's really aren't an issue in Windows anymore, at least for my deparmtne, ( we use a combination of Windows 7 Pro, and our in house UNIX OS )
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,612
7,790
And Windows RT looks like its pretty good if I'm honest, its a step above iOS, which can't even multiask, my GF has an iPad 3. Don't get me wrong, that screen is awesome, and its built so so so so so good, ( so is the surface ), but the fact is, I can be typing an email.......then I get a text....read the text....go back to the email App....and all my text is gone...huh?

Huh? That doesn't sound right. I know when I write email on my iPad, I've switched away from email to other apps and come back to find my half-finished email still there. Granted, there were a few odd times when the email disappeared for some reason or other, and I haven't quite figured out exactly what causes it -- but the point is, it doesn't happen often enough that I need to spend time investigating the cause.

Yes, iOS's implementation of multitasking leaves a lot to be desired, but please don't spread the misinformation that it doesn't multitask at all.

It is IMPOSSIBLE on iOS to have more than one program on the screen at the same time, hence, no multi tasking.

Wait, that's a different issue from what you orignally complained about. And no, I don't agree with that definition of multitasking. If I'm reading a book on my iPad while Pandora is playing music in the background, what would you say that is if you aren't going to call it "multitasking"?
 
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Technarchy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2012
6,753
4,927
I like RT.

I don't like RT enough to replace my iPad with a Surface.

I still prefer the light, speediness, and intuitiveness of iOS.
 

pesos

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 30, 2006
684
190

michaeljohn

macrumors 6502
Oct 27, 2012
279
0
So 24 hours with the Surface RT has made a couple of things clear... This device is certainly not for everyone, but for some people it will be fantastic. It is a joy to work on - and that's something I couldn't say about the 3 iPads I've owned. The reality is that the iPads seem like toys now - great for consumption but that's it. The Touch and Type covers (both with integrated trackpads) are a gamechanger, making even the RT an extremely competent work machine.

Since you bought one, maybe you could explain this to me. Why did you pay $600+ for a tablet with a keyboard when you can get a more powerful laptop with a larger display for half the price? Seems to me every tablet is a toy. A true working professional is always going to go for a laptop over a tablet.
 

opinioncircle

macrumors 6502
May 17, 2009
493
0
The way the marketplace looks is pretty good. Pretty excited on my end to see the pro, I hope this could be a replacement for my 3 year old uMBP.

I have no particular ins on the Apple eco system, and am glad to have made such a choice. Keeping options open is the name of the game IMO.

The way the Surface looks is really really good, and only the Air can compete with it (in my eyes).

I do hope the Surface does well, as everybody else. It'll keep the inovation going forward, or will break us all :D:p
 

ReallyBigFeet

macrumors 68030
Apr 15, 2010
2,952
129
So 24 hours with the Surface RT has made a couple of things clear... This device is certainly not for everyone, but for some people it will be fantastic.


If the Surface isn't for "everyone" then by definition, its a niche product for a niche market. Since Apple's product strategy is devices that define the tablet segment, appealing to the broadest market demographics, why on earth would they be interested in a niche product for a niche market?

Microsoft aimed there (if they aimed at all) because they realize they can't compete for the broader market. Its owned by Apple.

Even on the consumer side, if we're going to talk about myths, how about the myth that you can have an iPad as your only computer... Impossible. Surface Pro? Complete computer replacement in a tablet form factor. Compare the price of a Surface Pro (admittedly higher than that of an iPad, and rightly so given the functionality) to the price of an iPad+11"MBA and I think it's compelling for consumers, students, and more...

Now who is spouting myths? As a niche device, this won't be a replacement computer for everyone.
 
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pesos

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 30, 2006
684
190
Since you bought one, maybe you could explain this to me. Why did you pay $600+ for a tablet with a keyboard when you can get a more powerful laptop with a larger display for half the price? Seems to me every tablet is a toy. A true working professional is always going to go for a laptop over a tablet.

Umm... Is this a serious question? By your logic, why would anyone buy a MBA? And your statement that a "true working pro" is always going to go for a laptop is shortsighted. Kind of like those that 10-15 years ago said that a "true working pro" is always going to go for a desktop over a laptop...

----------

If the Surface isn't for "everyone" then by definition, its a niche product for a niche market. Since Apple's product strategy is devices that define the tablet segment, appealing to the broadest market demographics, why on earth would they be interested in a niche product for a niche market?

Microsoft aimed there (if they aimed at all) because they realize they can't compete for the broader market. Its owned by Apple.

Now who is spouting myths? As a niche device, this won't be a replacement computer for everyone.

Umm, the iPad isn't for everyone either. Your comments aren't really making sense. I was specifically talking about RT vs. Win8. And as I mentioned, this could be a replacement computer for certain people, not for everyone. Unlike an ipad, the Surface RT is completely capable of serving as the one computing device that someone owns - student scenarios in particular come to mind -- and my original statement was that the SURFACE PRO could be a replacement; which it could for anyone as it has the exact same guts as a MacBook Air. Maybe you are confusing the RT and Pro. As for competing for the broader market, it's hilarious to count MS out at this point. You could have said the same thing about Apple - why even stay in the computing business if you're only going to get 2-3% of the market? Well things have certainly changed haven't they? Same with smartphones - that arena was "owned" by RIM just 4-5 years ago - and look at it now...
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,391
5,254
The way the marketplace looks is pretty good. Pretty excited on my end to see the pro, I hope this could be a replacement for my 3 year old uMBP.

I have no particular ins on the Apple eco system, and am glad to have made such a choice. Keeping options open is the name of the game IMO.

The way the Surface looks is really really good, and only the Air can compete with it (in my eyes).

I do hope the Surface does well, as everybody else. It'll keep the inovation going forward, or will break us all :D:p

I was pleasantly surprised at the Windows store as well. I kept hearing "ghost town" and such, but there are actually a ton of apps on there. I never really purchased that many apps on my ipad over 3 years, maybe 50-75 apps and really only used maybe a dozen of them. I see a ridiculous amount of redundancy in the ipad store, fart app number 45,672, etc.

I've got most of the apps I need from the app store so far, but the great thing is that I can just download the desktop version if there is no app and have full functionality without the compromise of an "app".
 

noteple

macrumors 68000
Aug 30, 2011
1,505
523
The Surface is for those who want a Surface.

Just another name in a long line of "I want a Playbook, HP touchpad, Galaxy tab", etc.......

The keyboard is not great more like pounding on a plastic mat.
Sure it's usable but if you want a typist keyboard you have to lug one along or choose a different platform.

Yes the screen is not retina quality but gosh darn if it ain't just great.
Swell

Build quality, did you expect it to come Pre broken?

And it's got those start of the art USB 2.0 connectors.

And look at those high resolution cameras, 720 is HD right. Well it's just a good as 1080 honest.

Surface doesn't have a tenth of the apps that were available for the first iPad much less all the iPhone apps that ran on the first iPad.
But you just wait, it's going to get better.

And I'm telling you it sold out on launch day. All the cheapest version we're snapped up like hot cakes.
While the 64gb model just sat there for days. But don't you worry none because those who missed out on the 32's got themselves a memory upgrade and a higher price too. The best of both worlds.

The Surface commercial with ding dongs jumping up and down and snapping covers on and off and they want to be taken seriously. What are you selling? Seriously?

And don't be hiding around the skirts of the Surface Pro.
You won't be seeing one of those until after the New Year and it will be another in a long, long line laptop tablet hybrids.

Maybe this is it. Pen for Windows has needed an upgrade since NCR tried to sell it in the 90's.
After almost 20 years I'm not so sure.

OP all kidding aside you sound like the spokes person for Microsoft.
Maybe you should copy your "please respect me" thread to all the other Android forums also.
 

robanga

macrumors 68000
Aug 25, 2007
1,657
1
Oregon
I applaud MS for doing something outside the box whatever the outcome. The confusion between RT and Pro is an issue though.

I can see long time Windows fans embracing surface and some businesses. The masses? maybe not.
 

ReallyBigFeet

macrumors 68030
Apr 15, 2010
2,952
129
Umm, the iPad isn't for everyone either. Your comments aren't really making sense. I was specifically talking about RT vs. Win8. And as I mentioned, this could be a replacement computer for certain people, not for everyone. Unlike an ipad, the Surface RT is completely capable of serving as the one computing device that someone owns - student scenarios in particular come to mind -- and my original statement was that the SURFACE PRO could be a replacement; which it could for anyone as it has the exact same guts as a MacBook Air. Maybe you are confusing the RT and Pro. As for competing for the broader market, it's hilarious to count MS out at this point. You could have said the same thing about Apple - why even stay in the computing business if you're only going to get 2-3% of the market? Well things have certainly changed haven't they? Same with smartphones - that arena was "owned" by RIM just 4-5 years ago - and look at it now...

Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

And the market isn't going to differentiate Win RT from Win Pro when it comes to the Surface. They will look at it and say "Tablet" and that's about as far as it gets. Microsoft has no idea who they are building the Surface for, not in the least. They are a 'build to specs' company and that story, while it resonates with a minority of the potential users out there, is a niche story.

Great product strategies are all about stories. I highly recommend this current article for a really good perspective on this.

Microsoft has no story. Other than a confusing one.
 

pesos

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 30, 2006
684
190
Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

Ah, so it's all about current market share, I see. A market that Apple has had all to itself up until quite recently. Once again, by your logic the iPhone was pointless because RIM had things locked up 5 years ago. Guess we'll just wait and see.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,391
5,254
Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

And the market isn't going to differentiate Win RT from Win Pro when it comes to the Surface. They will look at it and say "Tablet" and that's about as far as it gets. Microsoft has no idea who they are building the Surface for, not in the least. They are a 'build to specs' company and that story, while it resonates with a minority of the potential users out there, is a niche story.

Great product strategies are all about stories. I highly recommend this current article for a really good perspective on this.

Microsoft has no story. Other than a confusing one.

Microsoft strategy is sound, it's just that their execution is terrible. Just like the desktop to laptop revolution years ago we are now in a laptop to tablet revolution. Having a familiar OS like Windows will propel users into the tablet world much sooner, if we had iOS on laptops what would the world be like today.

With that said MS has put up some serious obstacles in its own way, it's a shame because they have a real chance of failing because of these issues which are obvious to everyone else except Microsoft. RT/Pro fragmentation and consumer confusion, very bad and will give a lot of consumers a bad taste. RT should have never seen the light of day, I'm using WinPro on an Atom processor and I'm seeing all day battery life with no compromises, but still have a full Win8 OS setup. MS should have released ONLY windows 8 pro, leaving RT on their phones only.

The other bad gamble was on the OS. I'm a huge MS fanboy, but even I have to admit they are way too fragmented and directionless with Windows 8. They managed to both ostracize the business side, and confuse the consumer side at the same time. What they are doing with Win8 is awesome in idea, but execution is not there and it's going to hurt them.

I still think there will be quite a lot of consumers who go for the Atom full Windows units. There is only so much time before people realize they don't have a real OS in the ipad, it will work for many people and the ipad will continue to sell a ton, but there will also be many consumers who need something more and hopefully MS will wake up and figure out what they are doing wrong.
 
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