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Old Oct 31, 2012, 02:29 PM   #701
greenmeanie
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Sounds like they wanted him to be the escape goat and he said FU!
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 02:52 PM   #702
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Forstall took the fall because he didn't want to apologize for Maps, when he sounded the alarms that it wasn't ready for release. Tim Cook ignored him, and to cover his butt, fired Forstall. Cook is the one that should go. He is incompetent.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 03:48 PM   #703
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so, this was why Scott was absent at the event.

I knew something was missing.

To the above post... Steve didn't think so.... but i agree
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 03:53 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
Indeed. I'm not talking about value in a sense of quality but rather in a purely economic sense (this discussion began as a question of Apple's magins - I argue that the willingness of people to pay more for Apple goods is a measure of how much value Apple has added).

The only way to objectively measure economic value created is to accept that each person's perception of value is true for them and in that moment and measure that by seeing what they would pay for said item that they value. That cumulative number will be the total value created - regardless of what you or I may think about it.
Ah. Agreed. Good discussion, man!
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 04:07 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by darster View Post
Forstall took the fall because he didn't want to apologize for Maps, when he sounded the alarms that it wasn't ready for release. Tim Cook ignored him, and to cover his butt, fired Forstall.
and got these details how, oh let me guess.....

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Old Nov 1, 2012, 06:38 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by roadbloc View Post
...Maybe we'll see more reliability and usability in Apple like the pre-iPhone years, rather than some of the ugly and nonsensical skeuomorphic designs we've had in iOS and seen creep into OS X over the years.
What is your example of "ugly nonsensical skeuomorphic design?"
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 08:08 AM   #707
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I think the little Facebook & Twitter Share Sheets that look like index cards, on iOS when they come up to Share, are fantastic. And I am guessing that this is an example of skeuomorphic design at its best?

It would be a loss if design such as this were removed from iOS. I really like the feeling of these little cards when I post. I prefer to post OUTSIDE of the actual Facebook/Twitter apps because of this.

And I also love the little torn paper sheets of information that come up with Siri queries for information, and the faux book look of Contacts.

Even the brushed metal of the older QuickTime Player, and the water-dropplet-like buttons/scroll bars of early OS X are examples of skeuomorphic design. Right?

It would be a loss if all this was taken away, and not make the devices feel as organic as apple pie (so to speak)! I guess I'm a fan of skeuomorphic design. Cool. Never knew what that was called before this thread.

Just sayin'.

But what's the alternative for Apple, considering Microsoft's Metro and Google's minimalism, to set it apart?
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 09:27 AM   #708
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Maps was going to be a fiasco now or in a year

Forstall has always kinda creeped me out, but a feeling like that is not necessarily a basis for judgement.

It's funny how Maps is included in his criticism, because it makes no sense. Sure, the new Maps app has problems, but it's years less mature than Google's. If Apple had waited until their contract with Google ended, in a year, the problems we're encountering now would have happened then. A traditional beta would likely not have solved most of the problems, so the pain was unavoidable. The only thing I can think of would be to include BOTH Maps apps for a while, but that would lead to confusion for many users, which is why Apple doesn't allow apps into the Store that duplicate core functionality.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:31 AM   #709
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I like skeuomorphism, i love Game Center, calendar, notes.... i don't want all the windows looks the same. It is easier to recognized apps while your work and if skeuomorphism didn't impact usability it is a good thing. I can't imagine Game center or Calendar and a cold grey window.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:49 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by hleewell View Post
What is your example of "ugly nonsensical skeuomorphic design?"
OS X Lion's iCal is a perfect example. iCal in Snow Leopard looked great and worked fine. Lion's iCal removed and hid features and pointlessly made it look like a real leather calendar. The removal of iCal features was (such as reminders) were then distributed into other pointless skeuomorphic apps in Mountain Lion (and promoting them as new features), even when these features worked perfectly within iCal in Snow Leopard.

When they're putting more effort into the realisticness of leather stitching and smooth page turns rather than functionality, you have to question whether Apple is taking OS X seriously at all. It seems they're trying to make things sell by slapping eye candy on them rather than making them look and work great at the same time like they used to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darster View Post
Forstall took the fall because he didn't want to apologize for Maps, when he sounded the alarms that it wasn't ready for release. Tim Cook ignored him, and to cover his butt, fired Forstall. Cook is the one that should go. He is incompetent.
Would you like ice with that portion of total rubbish you've posted there? If anyone is to even begin believing that post, we want to know how you know and how you know what you know is accurate.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:52 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by darster View Post
Forstall took the fall because he didn't want to apologize for Maps, when he sounded the alarms that it wasn't ready for release. Tim Cook ignored him, and to cover his butt, fired Forstall. Cook is the one that should go. He is incompetent.
It is much more that that. The ios 6 beta feedback was pretty bad for Map. But if you watched Forstall Iphone 5 launch pitch, he made IOS map out to be a polished product. A big part of the anger from the user community is the fact that they don't have a functional map and they were misled by Apple on the state of the IOS map. If Forstall had told the truth early enough, Apple could have kept Google map in IOS 6 for another year while putting the IOS map side by side as a beta. No one would be angry and Apple would have gotten what they want.. Forstall basically sandbagged the company into a very difficult situation all because of his ego. He deserved to be fired in my book..
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 11:06 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by dndandrea View Post
Apple as a company has been an embarrassment lately.
LOL, get some fresh air. It's not embarrassing to be Apple. They're still tripping over the moneybags piled in the hallways.

About Forstall: we don't know why he left, exactly. People who are saying they know may have axes to grind. If he did refuse to sign the apology over Maps, and if that's what Cook wanted, that's cause right there. But Forstall could also just have been burned out and ready to take a break, so anything could have looked like a last straw to him.

I worked for a long time in a couple of very different Fortune short list companies. At both places, if you did stellar work then you had a lot of leeway, including expressing your opinion to the CEO if you felt like it. We didn't imagine doing so would be free of consequence, however. Saying what you thought would be one thing. Declining a CEO's direct request? Shortcut to the exit interview!
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 08:22 PM   #713
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Skewer the Skeuomorphic Features

Had Forstal spent more time on getting Maps right and less time on skeuomorphic features (which I do not like and agree with Ive), the story might be different. As a stockholder, I'm also happy with the changes.
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Old Nov 2, 2012, 05:46 AM   #714
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poor scott he will have to find solace in his millions, and millions of dollars

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Old Nov 4, 2012, 07:59 PM   #715
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I knew heads would roll over this. What I didn't know was that it would be Scott's big fake eyeball that rolled. Maps sucked and so did he for foisting that horrible software into everyone's IOS6 phone.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 08:34 PM   #716
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Perhaps it help led to this letter. http://www.businessinsider.com/dear-...ai-contributor
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 10:32 PM   #717
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Perhaps it help led to this letter. http://www.businessinsider.com/dear-...ai-contributor
The author forgets to mention the downsides of Android. Yes, some things are better, but some things are worse.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 12:01 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by theosib View Post
Forstall has always kinda creeped me out, but a feeling like that is not necessarily a basis for judgement.

It's funny how Maps is included in his criticism, because it makes no sense. Sure, the new Maps app has problems, but it's years less mature than Google's. If Apple had waited until their contract with Google ended, in a year, the problems we're encountering now would have happened then. A traditional beta would likely not have solved most of the problems, so the pain was unavoidable. The only thing I can think of would be to include BOTH Maps apps for a while, but that would lead to confusion for many users, which is why Apple doesn't allow apps into the Store that duplicate core functionality.
Apple could've just released the new Maps in the App Store and tens of millions will download it. Or they can re-release the previous Maps app on the App Store and bundle the new Maps.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:28 AM   #719
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Honestly, I like the iOS skeuomorphism. It makes it feel friendly and calming. However, there are times when apple takes it too far, and it does nothing but get in the way, or just look awful. Examples of this include the address book and music apps on the iPad. Remember when it used to look and behave like the a stripped-down itunes? I miss that so much.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:06 PM   #720
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There is hope....
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:49 AM   #721
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...753462274.html

Replace "Windows 8" with iOS (Maps) and "Sinofsky" with Forstall and it's an identical story...
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:57 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by ctone View Post
White roads over a light beige background isn't looking so good to me.
I don't have an issue with white roads, if they have a darker casing which they do. Which has been pretty standard on road atlases for decades, and isn't much different from white roads on a light grey background on Google maps. The lack of any depiction of road classification hierarchy (beyond dual and single carriageway) is a much bigger issue.

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Old Nov 14, 2012, 06:16 PM   #723
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Don't you realise that the minimalistic style of most modern handheld devices, the clean lines and "lack of character" allows interface designers to become effectively product designers by using skeumorphic concepts on their UIs? There are papers and psychological studies out there connecting skeumorphism with enjoyment.
There's actual skeumorphism (the concept of the trash can, the iTunes play button, Finder folder, etc) and then there's gaudy skeumorphism and textures (Game Center, iCal, iOS Calendar, Reminders, etc).

It's safe to assume that the skeumorphism people are discussing here belongs to the gaudy kind. The kind that hampers functionality.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 09:36 AM   #724
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There's actual skeumorphism (the concept of the trash can, the iTunes play button, Finder folder, etc) and then there's gaudy skeumorphism and textures (Game Center, iCal, iOS Calendar, Reminders, etc).

It's safe to assume that the skeumorphism people are discussing here belongs to the gaudy kind. The kind that hampers functionality.
Where the actual ends and where the gaudy starts then? You can argue: "when the functionality is not compromised". Well then personally I believe that the reminders app is perfectly functional and the skeuomorphic approach of it actually makes it fun to use. Also in what aspect iOS calendar is skeuomorphic? And if you define gaudy the use of textures dont forget that Macos was using brushed metal as a standard texture for a long long time without anyone complain for limitation in functionality.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 09:44 AM   #725
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It is much more that that. The ios 6 beta feedback was pretty bad for Map. But if you watched Forstall Iphone 5 launch pitch, he made IOS map out to be a polished product. A big part of the anger from the user community is the fact that they don't have a functional map and they were misled by Apple on the state of the IOS map. If Forstall had told the truth early enough, Apple could have kept Google map in IOS 6 for another year while putting the IOS map side by side as a beta. No one would be angry and Apple would have gotten what they want.. Forstall basically sandbagged the company into a very difficult situation all because of his ego. He deserved to be fired in my book..
When I saw that presentation I wondered if Apple was using the same app.
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