Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

lianlua

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2008
370
3
Right now the SHT21 claim is that it weight about 280g but it can run longer than Nexus 7 by 50% or more (depending on how one interpret the announcement which was translated from Japanese. It seems to be able to run 15 hours vs 9+ hours for Nexus 7). It looks awefully close to have a retina mini weight in the 308g range.
You can't compare weight like that any more than you can make the other comparisons you've been making. One blog that can't even get the facts right is not a basis on which to make an argument.

It is not physically possible, even with an IGZO panel, to upgrade to a retina display without also increasing the battery capacity substantially. There is no magic, no uncertainty, and no mystery left in the equation. It's all been laid out for you, even granting you wide leeway. Sharp isn't making the claims you're attributing to them, and indeed we keep returning to the same outlandish claim despite those numbers always adding up to 20-25%.

How much weight that adds in the end is a function of a thousand other variables that no one is really talking about here.
 

xofruitcake

macrumors 6502a
Mar 15, 2012
632
9
How much weight that adds in the end is a function of a thousand other variables that no one is really talking about here.

:cool: that is why we are posting in a msg board and not actually making money in designing the Ipad mini or anything similar. I beg to differ about the weight question. There is the display, the blacklight requirement and the size of battery needed. So the engineer can figure out how much weight saving they can get by using IGZO display alone. The thousand other things that a company can do to save battery power can go on top of the IGZO saving. There is no reason that we cannot try to figure out the panel weight saving individually.

And it is not a claim from the blog. It is in the Sharp PR which is in Japanese (about the double run time). Most folk interpreted it as 2x previous Sharp tablet which means about 15 hours of run time. And the rest of the AQUOS tablet spec look awefully like a Nexus 7. When the AQUOS come out, everyone will test the hell out of the tablet and we will find out what the battery requirement will be. We know the AQUOS tablet is much lighter weight than NEXUS 7 (280 g vs 340g) so if there are other trick that Sharp use to save battery, couldn't Apple and other use them too? Why is that only Sharp can implement the "trick" but not others? it does not seem to pass the smell test.

Even if IGZO display can only cut the weight by 0.25lb, and bring the weight of an Ipad Mini retina down to 0.75lb or so (as comapre to 0.68lb today), we will still have an Ipad mini retina whenever Sharp can product the 2048x1536 7.9 panel. Are you saying that IGZO panel with the reduction of the backlight and battery cannot bring Ipad mini even to 0.75lb?
 

dontpannic

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2011
460
4
Orpington, Kent, UK
Sorry to go all the way back to the first post, but I have to go back to one part in particular:

Steve wouldn't have.

I wish people would stop bringing this line out every time. It's getting ridiculous.

This needs to be said, and I apologise in advance.

Nobody knows what Steve would have done because he's dead. The only person who would know is Steve, and he can't exactly tell you right now.

All we know is that he left a plan for Apple. Who knows what was on the plan? Tim Cook.
 

lianlua

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2008
370
3
:cool: that is why we are posting in a msg board and not actually making money in designing the Ipad mini or anything similar.
You do not make any money in this industry. Don't project.
There is no reason that we cannot try to figure out the panel weight saving individually.
You're comparing two totally different devices, made out of different materials, with different sizes, different designs, and different metrics. The fact that the SHT21 is lighter than the Nexus 7 is no more relevant than the fact that the N7 is a little heavier than the current iPad mini.
And it is not a claim from the blog. It is in the Sharp PR which is in Japanese (about the double run time). Most folk interpreted it as 2x previous Sharp tablet which means about 15 hours of run time.
No. The Sharp release says that it is a preliminary comparison of a pre-production estimate against their old Galapagos tablet's 6-hour video life. The new tablet should be able to match the Nexus 7 simply based on the fact that it has a battery more than twice the size and the upgrade to a newer processor and technology, in addition to a more power-efficient display. Even without the IGZO LCD, it would have much better battery life.

Your blog post is the one reporting projected marketing claims and using a smartphone battery instead of the tablet's to lead you on an unfounded path to unrealistic expectations.
We know the AQUOS tablet is much lighter weight than NEXUS 7 (280 g vs 340g) so if there are other trick that Sharp use to save battery,
Again, the weight difference isn't due to the battery. The SHT21's battery is not that much smaller than the Nexus 7's, and the N7 battery only weighs about 140-150g to begin with.
Why is that only Sharp can implement the "trick" but not others? it does not seem to pass the smell test.
That's just the thing--it doesn't. There is no "trick" at all.
Even if IGZO display can only cut the weight by 0.25lb
It can't cut any weight at all, unless it's being used to replace the existing, non-retina display. Any other use will add weight.
Are you saying that IGZO panel with the reduction of the backlight and battery cannot bring Ipad mini even to 0.75lb?
One does not flow from the other. Retina displays are heavier. Bigger batteries are heavier. If they want to offset a weight gain from those components, they have to look at the materials and design of the device elsewhere. Smaller screens use less glass and weigh less. Plastic weighs less than aluminum. Thinner materials weigh less. There are a hundred ways to deal with that.

Your comparisons are just not functional.
 

xofruitcake

macrumors 6502a
Mar 15, 2012
632
9
You do not make any money in this industry. Don't project.

You're comparing two totally different devices, made out of different materials, with different sizes, different designs, and different metrics. The fact that the SHT21 is lighter than the Nexus 7 is no more relevant than the fact that the N7 is a little heavier than the current iPad mini.

No. The Sharp release says that it is a preliminary comparison of a pre-production estimate against their old Galapagos tablet's 6-hour video life. The new tablet should be able to match the Nexus 7 simply based on the fact that it has a battery more than twice the size and the upgrade to a newer processor and technology, in addition to a more power-efficient display. Even without the IGZO LCD, it would have much better battery life.

.


You keep saying there are a lot other technology that will save power but yet Sharp is the first one that bring out those technology????????? and not ASUS for nexus 7 (I guess it is 5 months old now), not Ipad mini (I guess it is 4 weeks old now), not Ipad 4 (I guess it is 4 weeks old now) and certainly not Nexus 10 (I guess it is also 4 weeks old). And a sharp tablet that is going to be ship in 2-3 weeks will have all those power saving technology while Apple, Samsung, ASUS cannot. Does technology really move that fast or engineers working in other firm is really that dumb or Apple/samsung/ASUS just don't care about weight and battery size? Does it even pass your own smell test?

The weight difference between similar device is important since it is an indication of how big a battery the device has. And hopefully an indication of the efficiency of the panel. Once someone get a hand on the device, we will get the exact measurement and we don't have to guess. The whole goal of the IGZO exercise is to reduce weight. Apple can put together an Ipad mini with today technology if they are interest in one that is 1lb to 1.1lb. A device that is not very interesting given that we already has Ipad 3/Ipad 4 at 1.44lb. I don't get the assertion that the weight difference between Nexus 2 and SLT21 is not important.

So what exactly do you believe the benefit of IGZO panel for a device like Ipad mini be? Can it save 0.1lb, 0.2lb or 0.5lb in weight? or is it too many other factors that no one can figure out or even guess (none of us are display engineer so I guess we are all make a good guessing game here)???


PS. Internet is great.. Google a little bit and we have answer directly from a demonstration by Sharp in CEATEC in Japan. Look like the power saving for the 10.8 inches display is about 1/3. for 5 inch panel, the power saving is about 80%+. 7.9inches panel will be somewhere in between. Check it out yourselves..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4sFCLikvyI
 
Last edited:

lianlua

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2008
370
3
You keep saying there are a lot other technology that will save power but yet Sharp is the first one that bring out those technology?????????
What?
The weight difference between similar device is important since it is an indication of how big a battery the device has. And hopefully an indication of the efficiency of the panel.
No. It's an indication of how heavy the device is. That's it. If you were weighing the battery as a rough approximation of capacity, that would at least make sense. But you can't weigh a whole device and draw any conclusions from it. If I drag out an 8 pound laptop and put it next to a 4.5 pound MacBook, it would be insane to conclude that the MacBook must be almost twice as efficient. The two are not meaningfully related.

The battery is about 15-20% lower in capacity on the SHT21 compared to the N7. That, with whatever the final rundown on its battery life is, will tell you exactly how much more efficient the whole tablet is. A large portion of that will be due to the display, but not all of it. Comparing the weights of two totally unrelated devices doesn't tell you anything meaningful about battery life or display efficiency.
I don't get the assertion that the weight difference between Nexus 2 and SLT21 is not important.
It's not relevant to any comparison because they're not remotely the same device. The reason the Sharp tablet weighs less is not because it has a magically lightweight battery (and even if it did, that would be related to battery chemistry). It's not because it has a battery that's a tiny fraction of the size. It's not because the display backplane weighs less (the whole backplane only weighs about 10g!). It's because it's a totally different tablet with a thousand different design decisions.

The same is true of the iPad mini: it is much larger and yet weighs less than the N7. Why? Because Apple made saving weight a much higher priority than Asus and Google did.
So what exactly do you believe the benefit of IGZO panel for a device like Ipad mini be? Can it save 0.1lb, 0.2lb or 0.5lb in weight?
The benefits are obvious: power efficiency, higher pixel density, and responsiveness, with a less steep battery curve. It reduces, but nowhere near eliminates, the added weight and battery requirements associated with building a "retina" class device.

A retina mini with IGZO still needs a bigger battery than the current model, and barring some revolutionary new battery chemistry, that still means adding significant weight. They might compensate elsewhere for some of this, but this is an inescapable fact no matter how much you try to avoid it.
none of us are display engineer
Again, you are not a display engineer.
Look like the power saving for the 10.8 inches display is about 1/3. for 5 inch panel, the power saving is about 80%+.
That's panel driving power. For crying out loud, Sharp has already pegged the overall power efficiency boost of IGZO at 25%. There's no need to rehash this ad nauseum with increasingly off-the-wall statements. The ballpark is 25%. Going retina is about 65%. 65 is more than 25. End of story.

I don't know how many other ways there are to say that if your display consumes 10Wh out of a total device envelope of 15, going retina is going to push that up to about 19 out of 24 at best. If you introduce a display technology that curbs that by 25%, that means retina at 14.25Wh out of 19.25. 14.25 is still 42.5% more than 10. 19.25 is still more than 15. It's a lot better than 24Wh, but more is more no matter how you slice it.
 

OdT22

macrumors 6502
Oct 28, 2012
286
404
lol

Quite a lather you've worked yourself in to. Dunno which side your playing for, but give yourself a gold star. We're absolutely riveted.
 

xofruitcake

macrumors 6502a
Mar 15, 2012
632
9
That's panel driving power. For crying out loud, Sharp has already pegged the overall power efficiency boost of IGZO at 25%. There's no need to rehash this ad nauseum with increasingly off-the-wall statements. The ballpark is 25%. Going retina is about 65%. 65 is more than 25. End of story.

I don't know how many other ways there are to say that if your display consumes 10Wh out of a total device envelope of 15, going retina is going to push that up to about 19 out of 24 at best. If you introduce a display technology that curbs that by 25%, that means retina at 14.25Wh out of 19.25. 14.25 is still 42.5% more than 10. 19.25 is still more than 15. It's a lot better than 24Wh, but more is more no matter how you slice it.

If I understand you correctly, you think an Ipad mini with IGZO diaplay is going to weight in the 0.75-0.82lb range? an Ipad min with a-SI technology is probably going to weight 1.0-1.1lb given that Ipad 4 is weight at 1.44lb and Ipad mini has about 65% of screen size of Ipad 4. My believe is that we can get to 0.68lb which is the current weight of Ipad mini. I just want to see how difference our views are?
 
Last edited:

Gix1k

macrumors 68040
Jun 16, 2008
3,418
1,074
I was going to return my mini in prep for a retina version, but I couldn't bring myself to return it. I use it so much that I would be lost without a tablet while waiting on a new one. I figure I'll sell this when a retina version is definite with a release date.
 

Defender2010

Cancelled
Jun 6, 2010
3,131
1,097
I was going to return my mini in prep for a retina version, but I couldn't bring myself to return it. I use it so much that I would be lost without a tablet while waiting on a new one. I figure I'll sell this when a retina version is definite with a release date.

Your statement just about sums up all the "I want to return my Mini" threads.
 

Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
943
498
I figure I'll sell this when a retina version is definite with a release date.

When has Apple ever made such an announcement? You'll know the release date on the release date, but not a minute sooner. Best guess right now is somewhere between March 2013 and July 2013 but with cellphones and tablets the market is so competitive that you'll never know until it happens. One thing I do know is that the mini with Retina screen is probably the most anticipated tablet waiting to happen right now. Apple is going to sell a ton of them. I just read that 88% of all tablets sold on black Friday were iPads. Even the iPad 2 had strong sales. The MS Surface sold next to none. Looks like MS has another Zune on their hands :D

http://news.investors.com/technology/112612-634595-apple-black-friday-winner-microsoft-lags.htm
 

MikeTHIS

macrumors member
Oct 15, 2012
64
21
I can understand and appreciate why some wouldn't like the mini, for sure.

I just picked up a 32 gig wifi mini today locally (thanks to milo! (App is awesome)) and cancelled my apple order.

I am coming from a first gen iPad so this thing blows that away. I mainly use it as an in between of my air and iphone. I do a lot of stuff for social media so this fits my needs.

Regarding fonts, try these bookmarklets: http://marcos.kirsch.com.mx/2012/04/29/font-size-bookmarklets/
 

Gix1k

macrumors 68040
Jun 16, 2008
3,418
1,074
Best you can do is sell it before the next Apple event, but that might not be an iPad Mini event.

I sold my 4S the day they showed the 5. I got a nice amount for it. As soon as the retina mini event is over, I'll post this one for sale. It'll certainly be $329, so if I get 2 something for it I'll be happy.
 

lianlua

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2008
370
3
If I understand you correctly, you think an Ipad mini with IGZO diaplay is going to weight in the 0.75-0.82lb range?
There's no way to know. An iPad mini with an IGZO retina display is going to need a battery with somewhere around 50% more capacity. It's going to need some combination of more and/or brighter LEDs as well, which will also add some weight. What Apple finds in the rest of the device that can be made lighter will determine how much of a net weight gain is involved.

The three heaviest parts of a tablet are the casing, battery, and LCD assembly. I am no expert in battery chemistry, but so far as I know there's nothing out there for mass production that is going to change what batteries weigh in the near future. In the LCD, most of the weight is in glass layers and the backlight, not in the backplane, so no backplane process is going to make an appreciable difference.
an Ipad min with a-SI technology is probably going to weight 1.0-1.1lb given that Ipad 4 is weight at 1.44lb and Ipad mini has about 65% of screen size of Ipad 4.
You just can't do that. The larger iPad has thicker glass and aluminum and a lot more of it. Most of the weight of the full-size iPad is casing material. It doesn't translate to anything directly.

The iPad 3's battery weighs somewhere around 100g more than the iPad 2's, but the whole tablet only weighs about 50g more, because of other changes that saved weight. Same deal with the first iPad to iPad 2--the batteries are the same size and weight, but the iPad 2 is about 60g lighter.

Weight and battery size, or weight and power efficiency, just aren't related the way you're making them out to be. The iPad 4 has the same screen, same battery, and same weight of the iPad 3, but it runs longer on a charge.
My believe is that we can get to 0.68lb which is the current weight of Ipad mini.
Doubtful, but if they do, it will have very little to do with the IGZO panel.

Dropping in a 1024x768 IGZO panel in the current mini and shrinking the battery to compensate would only drop about 15g off the weight. Upgrading that to retina adds a lot more than 15 grams, and it's a lot harder to find places to cut in the mini. I haven't seen a complete teardown of the mini yet, but based on our products, I would estimate the battery at around 90g, LCD assembly at around 75g, electronics at 50g and glass/aluminum at around 95g. If someone has actual numbers, I would love to see them.

If the battery bumps up to 135g and the LCD goes up to 90g for IGZO retina, that's 60 grams. I don't see where they can realistically make that up to get back to ~310.
 

UnknownStudent

macrumors newbie
Nov 27, 2012
5
0
Screen technology, and Apple testing the waters.

If the mini does well, they won't 'off' it and will make a retina version next year hopefully.

I'll be buying it again for sure if it has a retina screen (without any screen issues). It's really the perfect size for typing with my thumbs, and just carrying from place to place.

As expected once again, Apple is a disappointment to many users up until now. I just don't understand why there seems to be no new innovation towards their new products in their family line of products. The iPad mini turned out to be similar to a compressed version of iPad 2. I honestly don't understand why the iPad mini isn't up to date with the new line of retina display technology, when it is not surprising that they introduce the new retina display 13" Macbook Pro.

But without doubt, I agree with Binarymix that if they do come out with a retina screen and is comparable with my current iPad 3 retina, I would buy it. I would agree that the iPad mini is a lot lighter then my current iPad and it is more easy to carry from place to place. I guess that is the positive side about it.
 

Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
943
498
The iPad mini turned out to be similar to a compressed version of iPad 2.

That's all it's supposed to be for now. If you're expecting a smaller version of the full sized mini then dream on. Apple did not come out with the mini just to cannibalize full iPad sales. They want new iPad sales.

I honestly don't understand why the iPad mini isn't up to date with the new line of retina display technology

Because they simply do not need it for sales for the initial version. Why should they blow their wad out of the gate? By adding features incrementally they keep sales strong, and that's their main goal.
 

The Catalyst

macrumors 6502
Dec 4, 2009
450
70
That's all it's supposed to be for now. If you're expecting a smaller version of the full sized mini then dream on. Apple did not come out with the mini just to cannibalize full iPad sales. They want new iPad sales.

...

Because they simply do not need it for sales for the initial version. Why should they blow their wad out of the gate? By adding features incrementally they keep sales strong, and that's their main goal.

Exactly.

Releasing a bare bones mini was purely a profit move on their part (and a good one at that). Apple know they'll sell a ton of these, then they'll sell a ton on more when they give it a minor speed bump at WWDC next Summer. I doubt we'll see a retina mini before next holiday season, at the earliest.
 

AppleRobert

macrumors 603
Nov 12, 2012
5,726
1,132
Exactly.

Releasing a bare bones mini was purely a profit move on their part (and a good one at that). Apple know they'll sell a ton of these, then they'll sell a ton on more when they give it a minor speed bump at WWDC next Summer. I doubt we'll see a retina mini before next holiday season, at the earliest.

Glad I decided to jump on the iPad 4 at Black Friday price. It screamed bargain versus the Mini and I'll decide in the future if I'll go for the Mini depending on its price and specs. Right now a no go and I returned it.

I just don't get all these people going for the Mini that owned prior iPads and liked them a lot with no concern on size and weight and all of a sudden it is a BIG issue. The 4 is easily a better device especially at Black Friday price. Whatever, my Mini rant is over! :)
 

Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
943
498
Releasing a bare bones mini was purely a profit move on their part (and a good one at that).

Correct. I read that 88% of all tablet sales on black friday were iPads. Even iPad 2 sales were strong, which surprised me. Apple knows what it's doing. People just need to relax and let Apple run Apple. If the mini doesn't live up to your personal specs, then simply don't buy it. Sooner or later it will get a Retina screen and faster processor, ect. and then you can all buy your dream tablet :)
 

Awakener

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2011
345
0
Sorry to go all the way back to the first post, but I have to go back to one part in particular:

Steve wouldn't have.

I wish people would stop bringing this line out every time. It's getting ridiculous.

This needs to be said, and I apologise in advance.

Nobody knows what Steve would have done because he's dead. The only person who would know is Steve, and he can't exactly tell you right now.

All we know is that he left a plan for Apple. Who knows what was on the plan? Tim Cook.

Not only that but Jobs isn't God. Sometimes he changed his mind like every human being, and sometimes he was even (gasp!) wrong.
 

darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
17,989
9,573
Atlanta, GA
I just don't get all these people going for the Mini that owned prior iPads and liked them a lot with no concern on size and weight and all of a sudden it is a BIG issue. The 4 is easily a better device especially at Black Friday price. Whatever, my Mini rant is over! :)

People were happy with the size and weight of the Powerbook 180s until the Powerbook Duos came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the Powerbook G3 until the Powerbook G3 Lombard came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the Powerbook G3 Pismo until the Titanium Powerbooks came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the 15" Powerbook until the 12" Powerbook came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the 13" MacBook Pro until the MacBook Air came out.
 

BenTrovato

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2012
3,035
2,198
Canada
People were happy with the size and weight of the Powerbook 180s until the Powerbook Duos came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the Powerbook G3 until the Powerbook G3 Lombard came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the Powerbook G3 Pismo until the Titanium Powerbooks came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the 15" Powerbook until the 12" Powerbook came out.

People were happy with the size and weight of the 13" MacBook Pro until the MacBook Air came out.

Almost. The first iterations of those products are never the home run, just like the mini is now. The 4 is so much more crisp and faster. Maybe those features aren't important to some people but it is a better performing device at the moment. Perhaps the next mini will be faster with a retina display at which point smaller could be better but right now it's still not there.
 

bcaslis

macrumors 68020
Mar 11, 2008
2,184
237
Almost. The first iterations of those products are never the home run, just like the mini is now. The 4 is so much more crisp and faster. Maybe those features aren't important to some people but it is a better performing device at the moment. Perhaps the next mini will be faster with a retina display at which point smaller could be better but right now it's still not there.

The 4 is of course a better performing device. Nobody is saying it's not. But the mini IS THERE if you want lighter weight and size. The performance of an iPad has never been an issue for me. If I want performance, I'll go to a tricked out Mac, not any iPad. For what the iPad is used for performance is not the main feature (at least for me). Trading off the retina display for the lighter form factor is an acceptable tradeoff for me. And before anyone says you don't have to compromise on the bigger iPad, every single device ever made is a compromise, just with different criteria.
 

darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
17,989
9,573
Atlanta, GA
Almost. The first iterations of those products are never the home run, just like the mini is now. The 4 is so much more crisp and faster. Maybe those features aren't important to some people but it is a better performing device at the moment. Perhaps the next mini will be faster with a retina display at which point smaller could be better but right now it's still not there.

The response was to "I just don't get all these people going for the Mini that owned prior iPads and liked them a lot with no concern on size and weight and all of a sudden it is a BIG issue." which questioned why people who were previously happy with their devices were now drawn to a lighter an smaller version of the same. There is a long history of Apple releasing lighter version of existing prodcts which people bought once they realized they would like/use the thing more if it were easier to use.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.