Microsoft Details Surface Pro Pricing Amidst Reports of Poor Sales of RT Version

[crazycanucks]

Originally Posted by G51989

I could write a thread on it, its gimmicky, its garbage, and full of useless crap I don't want.

Though, it is STILL better than 10.7, what a waste of my drive space that was.



I am not sure, but my type cover on my Surface RT weighs next to nothing.



Alright, just to be clear. I don't give a crap about some stupid dictionary definition of what " multi tasking " is, I don't care whats going on behind the scenes.

A REAL operating system to me ( And yes, I have owned iPhone before, and used them for years, so I know how they operating. I have used iPads, my GF was stupid enough to waste her hard earned money on one, when she could have just got a laptop ).

1: User end Multitasking, I want to be able to display more than one program on the the screen at the same time, I can't do this in iOS, sure I can play Music, and do something else at the same time, but that's not really multi tasking the way I see it, why can't I put a video into a small window and write a document at the same time? iOS cannot do this.
2: I want the ability to install any software I want, from whoever I want, whenever I want. iOS cannot do this, your limited to the App Store, your limited to what Apple says you can and cannot buy, I don't like that. ( Don't get me wrong, not a fan of it in Windows RT either, which is why I'll be buying the Pro as soon as it comes out, but I wanted to try out the surface, and 500 bucks isn't really an object for me )
3: I want mouse support, iOS is nice for touch, but without mouse support, its pretty useless for anything worthwile.
4: I want compatibility with standards, like office. Something which the iOS does not have on any decent level, sure some word processors you can get are compatible with word files, but most of them are garbage.
5: Filing system, I want to be able to access my own damn filing system. Fail on iOS's part.
6: I want to be able to make any kind of user end changes to the OS, I want to be able to select my default programs for actions, I can't do this in iOS, like Maps, I upgraded my 4S Work phone to iOS6, sure I could download a different maps application, But I can't set it to defult, then I'll be stuck with the terrible Apple maps, as I am stuck with sub par safari ( I prefer Opera )

These are just a couple of things, I could go on and on. But to me iOS is nothing more than a Phone OS. Half assed on anything that isn't a phone, Windows RT isn't all that much better if I am honest.

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See my new post, if your happy with a Phone OS that can't do real work, then more power to you.

And at least for ME, iOS cannot do real work. Neither can the hardware it comes on, ****. A surface pro is still gonna choke on what I do to make money, but it beats my 11 pound laptop lol.

All points except for your Office point are avail on a Jailbroken iOS device. And these are are apps created individual devs, not Apple Devs. Its too bad that Apple doesn't allow the customization that really has come from the Dev comunnity. I have had my iphone since iPhone 3G up until the iPhone 5, and all 3 iterations of the iPad, and the fact that your not allowed to save attachments anywhere from an email seems counter productive. Or save any file, or even access the file system. Why is Apple so afraid of? I would love my iOS devices even more if it had that capability.

Not sure why you (not you poster, the collective you) have to hate the other guys product. Shouldnt we be tech lovers?
The Surface pro (or any Win 8 Pro tablet) does not compete with the iPad. Its a whole new beast, a game changer, like the iPad 1 was. They arent even trying to fight for the same crowd and some of the posters here dont recognize that. Its not the same type of device. If the Mac OS does incorporate the tough aspect nativley, then its a different story.

I love my iPad 3, but like you poster, I cant wait for the Surface Pro to come out. I mean, getting a tablet AND a fully functional OS in the same device? Looked at other Pro tablets, and the Surface Pro looks like the best one so far

[mjtomlin]

Originally Posted by G51989

The point I am trying to make, is iOS as capable as a Windows, Linux, OSX, BSD, Unix, whatever the hell you want it to be. No, no its not. Its in my opinion a very content consumption based operating system

Please explain how it is not? And please explain how any of these are more capable to you, other than SOMEONE else wrote a program that you find useful?

Because as a programmer, I can write ANY application I want and run it on my iPad... without restrictions.

So what it really boils down to is, you're incapable of doing what you want because of your own limitations.

[mjtomlin]

Originally Posted by G51989

Alright, just to be clear. I don't give a crap about some stupid dictionary definition of what " multi tasking " is, I don't care whats going on behind the scenes.

LOL Yes. God forbid we actually understand how something really works.

my GF was stupid enough to waste her hard earned money on one

Nice. I'm sure your GF would appreciate that comment... Apparently she really was stupid... to date someone like you.

if your happy with a Phone OS that can't do real work, then more power to you.

And at least for ME, iOS cannot do real work. Neither can the hardware it comes on, ****. A surface pro is still gonna choke on what I do to make money, but it beats my 11 pound laptop lol.

Yeah. Great for YOU. So why are YOU complaining about a computer that you can never use to get work done that YOU need to get done?

Is the ENIAC a real computer? NO, because it can't do what YOU need it to do.
Is an IBM PC a real computer? NO, because it can't do what YOU need it to do.
Is a Mac II a real computer? NO, because it can't do what YOU need it to do.
Is a Surface Pro a real computer? NO, because it can't do what YOU need it to do.
Is an iPad a real computer? NO, because it can't do what YOU need it to do.

Look man, sorry, but just because something doesn't work for YOU, doesn't mean it ain't gonna work for someone else. Just because YOU think iOS is a Phone OS doesn't mean that's all it is. Sorry if you're too narrow minded to actually understand that the iPhone isn't a phone but a pocket computer.

How about this, YOU take your closed-minded view of what a computer is and what a computer needs to be capable of running over to the IBM zEnterprise thread... I'm sure they'll rip YOU a new one on what a REAL computer is supposed to be able to do.

And please don't qualify your argument that it's just YOUR opinion after writing an entire outline of purported facts and truths.

You are a tool.

[KnightWRX]

Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y

BSD was never, ever primarily a desktop OS. It was a CLI server OS.

BSD never was either. BSD was always just an OS and you were free as an implementor to choose what its purpose would be. Desktop, server, embedded device of some kind, there are no limitations or design decisions that favors anything in the BSD development arena.

Same for Linux really, no one ever set out with a proper "target". Desktop, server, embedded, mobile, mainframe, clustering, it does it all.

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Originally Posted by JAT

Simple. It's an OS that Win geeks have their lips permanently attached to. "Fully..."

A lot of "Full blown OS" comments come from Mac users talking about OS X. Why did you feel the need to delve into insults, call people "Win geeks" ?

Why do people generally feel the need to go for ad hominems when they lack the proper education to discuss a topic on a technical level ?

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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y

Neither you nor I can possibly know to what degree Microsofts involvement (hint, it wasnt just cash) helped Apple save itself from Bankruptcy.

Sure we can, and we do. It wasn't the cash that's for sure, Apple had more than that on hand.

The Microsoft deal did save Apple for the following reasons :

- Ended the litigation between the two companies that were beginning to be a good cash drain on Apple. Not the look n' feel suit that was all but lost at that point, but the Quicktime lawsuit.

- Provided the Mac with much needed compatibility with PCs in the form of a garantee for Microsoft Office, the defacto productivity suite at the time.

- Provided the Mac with a relevant Web browser with at least some form of CSS implementation that didn't suck. The only other options at the time (OmniWeb and Netscape Communicator 4.x) were just horrid, Microsoft was poised to take the whole market with Internet Explorer sadly. Without IE, the Mac would have become quite irrelevant in the early 00s, late 90s.

[balamw]

Originally Posted by KnightWRX

It wasn't the cash that's for sure, Apple had more than that on hand.

The Microsoft deal did save Apple for the following reasons :

This.

I don't doubt Jobs when he says they came to within 90 days from going BK, but there was a fair amount of time from December 1996 to July 1997 when Amelio was finally ousted and August 1997 when the Microsoft deal was announced. I have not seen any source that directly correlates the time at which they were so close to BK and the Microsoft deal. In the linked video, he appears to be talking about when he returned to Apple via the NeXT purchase.

This quote from Wikipedia may help put it in context.

On July 9, 1997, Gil Amelio was ousted as CEO of Apple by the board of directors after turning the company around from a multibillion loss to a $25 million dollar profit.

Apple was running a loss at some point late during Amelio's tenure, they were not in July/August.

The numbers show that the cash portion of the deal was largely symbolic. It was the rest of the deal that allowed Apple to regain stability and relevance and Microsoft to get out from under the cloud of litigation.

B

[SlCKB0Y]

Originally Posted by KnightWRX

BSD never was either. BSD was always just an OS and you were free as an implementor to choose what its purpose would be. Desktop, server, embedded device of some kind, there are no limitations or design decisions that favors anything in the BSD development arena.

I'm quite aware of the situation, i've been involved in BSD and Linux about 15 years now. I didn't mean BSD was designed with a specific use in mind. I said that it was primary in use as a server, which it was throughout the 90's.

[cgk.emu]

Originally Posted by MisterKeeks

$1,000 for a keyboardless laptop? 100 dollar keyboard addons? I think I'll pass.

Hey, sounds like Apple...

[emulator]

3.5 items per hour

I don't believe that, they sold Forza Horizon for $15 and many brand new games, including the latest Assassin Creed and F1 2012 for $10

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by Renzatic

Read through the rest of the arguments, that's one of the things iOS allows apps to process while running in the background. Music, GPS, and VoIP.

Then, by your own admission, your blanket statement is incorrect.

Thank you for making my point.

[KnightWRX]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Then, by your own admission, your blanket statement is incorrect.

Thank you for making my point.

He didn't make your point. You could listen to MP3s while browsing the web in Mac OS 9, yet Mac OS 9 didn't have pre-emptive multi-tasking.

[Appleisntpefect]

Everyone new the second the thing CRASHED during the demo months ago this thing would be an expensive POS.

Ballmer stop there looking angry, and medicated to keep from sweating up the stage in another of his rants.

NEXT!

[JAT]

Originally Posted by KnightWRX

A lot of "Full blown OS" comments come from Mac users talking about OS X. Why did you feel the need to delve into insults, call people "Win geeks" ?

Why do people generally feel the need to go for ad hominems when they lack the proper education to discuss a topic on a technical level ?

So, calling people on THIS forum a "geek" is an attack. But you claiming I'm uneducated is not?

Perhaps you should readdress your understanding of "attack".

Most people here are complaining about OSes thinking they operate the user, not the hardware. Why don't you attempt to set them straight, instead?

[JAT]

Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y

Where did I say that? Where did I make any comment as to what that 150M did? I simply said that the poster was wrong when stating Apple was in no immediate danger. They were in immediate danger.

Let me help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

Alright. My mistake.

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Originally Posted by balamw

It was the rest of the deal that allowed ... Microsoft to get out from under the cloud of litigation.

B

THIS was the main point of that settlement. Apple quit harrassing MS, and MS allowed that maybe they should go ahead and strike up licensing deals first in the future. Which these 2 companies now do, all the time.

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Originally Posted by KnightWRX

- Provided the Mac with much needed compatibility with PCs in the form of a garantee for Microsoft Office, the defacto productivity suite at the time.

Meh. Since then the Mac version has been way behind the Win version. Almost sounds more like they did the opposite of the guarantee. Before that, they were identical.

[G51989]

Originally Posted by mjtomlin

This is supposed to be a Mac-centric site. Besides, they basically have the same specs, price. Actually, I keep wondering why people aren't comparing it to other Windows tablets?

Actually it has better specs than a MBA, if we are counting the higher res screen, touch and pen input.

And yeah, I don't get it either. But I see why you would compare them.

I don't really think it matters. Windows tablets will remain a niche market, just as they've always been, with or without the Surface. Sure some people are going to find them useful and may even be productive on them, but to most people it will remain a gimmick - a step backwards (10 years) in tablet computing.

I doubt they will remain a niche, the OEMs are already starting to crank out some freaking awesome convertibles, and what the OEMs push tends to stick, the future won't be a pure tablet, it'll be a convertible.

I doubt the Surface's are even meant to sell in huge numbers, that would hurt the OEMs, I think its just to set the bar for them not to make garabge.

Things like this will be huge.



I think Apple will be copying I mean " Innovating " something like that in the future.

You can put lipstick on a pig but you wouldn't want to make out with it, would you? That's all Windows 8 is. An archaic OS dressed in drag for a somewhat new form factor.

Have you've ever even used Windows 8 on a tablet? Its archaic. If you want archaic, look at iOS. 2007....no changes...Apple fired the iOS lead and put Ive in Charge, what does that say? Even Apple knows iOS as we know it needs to go.

And these form factors are not new, but they are vastly improved. The old Windows Tablets from the early 00s would cost 1500-3500 dollars, kinda expensive.

But more power to them if it works this time. Microsoft has never been a company to give up so quickly. Hell, they lost billions on the Xbox, but kept it going all these years. What other company is capable of (or willing to do) that?

However, they knew they would lose money on it, and they knew if they succeeded, which they did. The rewards would be great, the next XBOX is poised to take control of the living room.

[Renzatic]

That Dell tablet, every time I look at it I imagine all the ways I'll probably manage to break it.

For their sake, I hope that little binding ring is made out of some stout material.

[G51989]

Originally Posted by inhalexhale1

Do you think you would find doing professional work on a 10-11" screen, with that style of keyboard/ mouse set-up comfortable?

Its meant to do stuff on the go, its not supposed to be your main machine if your doing real work on it. 10-11 inch screen does suck for that stuff.

I got a Surface RT just to test the waters, and I really like it, I'll be picking up a 128gb Pro, I'll alway have my trusty MX18 Laptop when I'm on the go, but its not something I really want to take into a restaurant, or on the couch, sure I can't perform lots of actual simulations on the Surface Pro, but It'll be super easy to set up some basic ones on it ( IE, setup. Then transfer specs to another machine running the same software ), then sync it with my workstation or laptop.

So, its going to be a secondary machine to my main machines, I think lots of people will be the same way.

I'm not a professional photographer, but I do use photoshop for web graphics on my site. I know I would feel very constrained on such a small device.

Same here for my work, but for lots of basic stuff, crashing on the couch will be nice ( gonna need the pen tho ).

Can anyone comment on how those keyboards feel? Are they rubbery/plastic/?

Yes, I have a type cover for my RT, which I'll be able to use on the pro as well. Its 100 dollars for a reason, it is without a doubt the best tablet keyboard I've used to date. It feels very nice, I can type ALMOST at full speed on it.

[ibuyufo]

The surface RT is a bit overpriced but for $250 to $299 I would pick one up in a heartbeat!

[Liquorpuki]

Originally Posted by fertilized-egg

and this

Image

Those Win 7 Slates are the equivalent of an iPad running only OS X with some UI mods so you can poke the screen. No app store, no mobile ecosystem, Except for niche applications, it's a mismatch and a bad idea.

The Pro is the equivalent an iPad being able to run both iOS and OS X (AKA having both mobile and desktop ecosystems) where the desktop's availability can make up for the deficiencies on the mobile side and vice versa. The main problem with forcing desktop UI's on tablets are they rely on keyboard/mouse inputs. Microsoft came up with a pretty unobtrusive solution to allow keyboard/trackpad inputs with that type cover. Right now the standard solution is to lug around a bluetooth keyboard and there is no solution for using a pointer on a tablet other than pick up your finger every 10 seconds and poke the screen. If you've ever used iOS Pages, it's annoying and sucks and is a major reason why your iPad is not the first choice for Word Processing.

And I don't really care about the history of BSD or why I shouldn't call iOS a mobile OS - point is there are 2 ecosystems - desktop and mobile - and for the first time you have a single device that lets you choose which ecosystem you want to use to compensate for the other's deficiencies

Old Tablet PC's = desktop ecosystems forced onto tablet hardware
iPad = mobile ecosystem ONLY along with all its deficiencies like limited software
Surface RT = mobile ecosystem just like the iPad competing directly with the more popular iPad, which is why it's a dumb idea.
Surface Pro = mobile and desktop ecosystems combined for the first time on a tablet, game changer if they don't screw it up

Besides this, those OEM slates have zero branding or marketing push. You need marketing to blow something up. The Surface has already been branded, everybody knows what it is, there are commercials for it. Nobody knows what a Series 7 Slate is. If Microsoft fails, it'll either be because of engineering screwups we don't know about, or marketing. Now that company is so silo'd it's a definite possibility they might screw it up on either end but that's another story

[robanga]

Originally Posted by ibuyufo

The surface RT is a bit overpriced but for $250 to $299 I would pick one up in a heartbeat!

I'd probably buy one to play with at for that price too. My only Windows 8 experience so far has been running Win 8 in a VM on a MacBook Air. Nice but none of the touch features.

Maybe we will see them on Woot! soon.

[Eric5h5]

Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y

Yes, the 150 million was under the guise of a cross-licensing agreement but the rest of this absolute rubbish. Got a source that they weren't near to going under?

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM...362B533B9.html

--Eric

[G51989]

Originally Posted by Renzatic

That Dell tablet, every time I look at it I imagine all the ways I'll probably manage to break it.

For their sake, I hope that little binding ring is made out of some stout material.

Hey, you can ruin an iPhone 5 just by putting it in your pocket

I would hope so as well, but it',s a 1000 dollar machine, I'm sure they're using some tough material.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by KnightWRX

He didn't make your point. You could listen to MP3s while browsing the web in Mac OS 9, yet Mac OS 9 didn't have pre-emptive multi-tasking.

The post to which I replied said nothing about pre-emptive multitasking versus any other type of multitasking. Please re-read for comprehension.

----------

Originally Posted by Liquorpuki

Those Win 7 Slates are the equivalent of an iPad running only OS X with some UI mods so you can poke the screen. No app store, no mobile ecosystem, Except for niche applications, it's a mismatch and a bad idea.

The Pro is the equivalent an iPad being able to run both iOS and OS X (AKA having both mobile and desktop ecosystems) where the desktop's availability can make up for the deficiencies on the mobile side and vice versa. The main problem with forcing desktop UI's on tablets are they rely on keyboard/mouse inputs. Microsoft came up with a pretty unobtrusive solution to allow keyboard/trackpad inputs with that type cover. Right now the standard solution is to lug around a bluetooth keyboard and there is no solution for using a pointer on a tablet other than pick up your finger every 10 seconds and poke the screen. If you've ever used iOS Pages, it's annoying and sucks and is a major reason why your iPad is not the first choice for Word Processing.

And I don't really care about the history of BSD or why I shouldn't call iOS a mobile OS - point is there are 2 ecosystems - desktop and mobile - and for the first time you have a single device that lets you choose which ecosystem you want to use to compensate for the other's deficiencies

Old Tablet PC's = desktop ecosystems forced onto tablet hardware
iPad = mobile ecosystem ONLY along with all its deficiencies like limited software
Surface RT = mobile ecosystem just like the iPad competing directly with the more popular iPad, which is why it's a dumb idea.
Surface Pro = mobile and desktop ecosystems combined for the first time on a tablet, game changer if they don't screw it up

Besides this, those OEM slates have zero branding or marketing push. You need marketing to blow something up. The Surface has already been branded, everybody knows what it is, there are commercials for it. Nobody knows what a Series 7 Slate is. If Microsoft fails, it'll either be because of engineering screwups we don't know about, or marketing. Now that company is so silo'd it's a definite possibility they might screw it up on either end but that's another story

It's MS making hardware. The odds are not in their favor. They likely have already screwed it up!

[KnightWRX]

Originally Posted by JAT

So, calling people on THIS forum a "geek" is an attack. But you claiming I'm uneducated is not?

Noticing that someone is "uneducated" in a particular topic is a statement of fact, not an attack. When you can't argue the technical side of something, it's because you lack education in it.

That's not attack. I'm just wondering why those people feel the need to attack others with proper educated opinions when they can't formulate one due to lack of education themselves.

Originally Posted by JAT

Most people here are complaining about OSes thinking they operate the user, not the hardware. Why don't you attempt to set them straight, instead?

I do set them straight. Maybe you just gloss over the posts where I do. I'm firmly in the camp that keeps explaining that the iPad and iPhone are "full blown computers" and that iOS is a "full blown OS".

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Originally Posted by Irishman

The post to which I replied said nothing about pre-emptive multitasking versus any other type of multitasking. Please re-read for comprehension.

This post :

Originally Posted by Irishman

Then why can I listen to the music player while typing this post???

Was a reply to this post :

Originally Posted by Renzatic

iOS doesn't preemptively multitask, it state saves and freezes to ram. In other words, if its in the background, it isn't running, it's waiting.

Maybe I'm just "not comprehending" something right here... but I've bolded what you say isn't there. Just to help you out here.

Anyway, iOS is a pre-emptive multi-tasking operating system. And your "music" example wasn't proof of it because pre-emptive multi-tasking is not needed to listen to music while browsing.

I think I had the "comprehension" down.

[PinoyAko]

Microsoft Surface and Windows 8 = Zune to become

[Rogifan]

Originally Posted by mjtomlin

This is supposed to be a Mac-centric site. Besides, they basically have the same specs, price. Actually, I keep wondering why people aren't comparing it to other Windows tablets?

I don't really think it matters. Windows tablets will remain a niche market, just as they've always been, with or without the Surface. Sure some people are going to find them useful and may even be productive on them, but to most people it will remain a gimmick - a step backwards (10 years) in tablet computing.

You can put lipstick on a pig but you wouldn't want to make out with it, would you? That's all Windows 8 is. An archaic OS dressed in drag for a somewhat new form factor.

But more power to them if it works this time. Microsoft has never been a company to give up so quickly. Hell, they lost billions on the Xbox, but kept it going all these years. What other company is capable of (or willing to do) that?

I'm seeing the MacBook Air comparisons everywhere, not just on Apple-centric sites. I do think this is DOA because its more comparable to an Ultrabook but I think the average user will compare it to a laptop and be disappointed (not thin and light enough, sucky battery life). And they'll be able to get a decent laptop for less money.