Microsoft Details Surface Pro Pricing Amidst Reports of Poor Sales of RT Version

[VenusianSky]

Played around with the MSFT tablet at their Apple copied store. This thing was nothing but lag. Spell check was horrible as it would only correct common spellings - not the ones you would expect on a touch screen. Many apps like Mail and Messenger would take 20+ seconds to open and when I asked the guy about why it's so slow and expensive, he said "you should probably go to Apple since you anyways have an iPhone." I find this whole thing to be a joke… really.

He probably said that because you asked "why is it so slow and expensive" and he figured you came in with a bias opinion since you had an iPhone.
Spell check on iOS is annoying and apps on my iPad lag and crash at times. I can't say anything about Mail and Messenger taking 20 seconds to open other than I would have to see it for myself to believe it. Maybe somebody trashed the demo that you were checking out. I run Windows 8 on a couple different computers and it doesn't take 20 seconds for mail or messenger to open.

 

[Chlloret]

He probably said that because you asked "why is it so slow and expensive" and he figured you came in with a bias opinion since you had an iPhone.
Spell check on iOS is annoying and apps on my iPad lag and crash at times. I can't say anything about Mail and Messenger taking 20 seconds to open other than I would have to see it for myself to believe it. Maybe somebody trashed the demo that you were checking out. I run Windows 8 on a couple different computers and it doesn't take 20 seconds for mail or messenger to open.

I had Apps crash on iPad, however, never the Apple Apps like mail, facetime ect. Usually cheap (free) apps that sometimes have to be startet twice to run.

You running Windows8 on an ARM prozessor? How? Where did you get Windows8RT? Btw, call me ignorant, but what is RT standing for? Restricted Tablet? Redundend Tablet? Reconditioned Tablet? Real trouble?

 

[Liquorpuki]

Hell.. I'm just thinking the regular MBP. I think you can get an Air for the same price that has much longer battery life too!

I wonder what the Pro's battery life will be under testing

The Air is rated for 5 hours. Uses an i5, lower res at 768, but also a smaller 35 WH battery
ASUS Transformer Book = i7, 1080 res, 38WH battery, rated for 5 hours too
Pro = i5, 1080 res, 42 WH battery, but only lasts 4 hours?

Of course architecture matters, but I have a hard time believing the Pro drains quicker than computers with comparable hardware and smaller batteries

 

[Renzatic]

I had Apps crash on iPad, however, never the Apple Apps like mail, facetime ect. Usually cheap (free) apps that sometimes have to be startet twice to run.

Pages. Like all the freakin' time.

 

[VenusianSky]

I had Apps crash on iPad, however, never the Apple Apps like mail, facetime ect. Usually cheap (free) apps that sometimes have to be startet twice to run.

You running Windows8 on an ARM prozessor? How? Where did you get Windows8RT? Btw, call me ignorant, but what is RT standing for? Restricted Tablet? Redundend Tablet? Reconditioned Tablet? Real trouble?

I demoed an Asus Windows RT tablet ( that has an ARM processor) at Best Buy a week ago. It didn't take 20 seconds for any of its apps to open, including Word and Excel. The Windows Mail and messenger apps don't do much unless there is an account setup to use it. Like I said, 20 seconds to open mail and messenger, I'd have to see it to believe it. Sorry, but saberahul's biased analysis failed to convince me that the Surface is as bad as that person said.

 

[Chlloret]

Pages. Like all the freakin' time.

Oh? Can't say, I use Office HD and smart Office on the iPad, never a Problem. I was not aware that pages comes with the iPad, is it part of iOS6? I still run 5.01 since I did not find a reason to update yet.

The implication was, that system programs that come with the device, mail, messenger, crash or need a long time to start.

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I demoed an Asus Windows RT tablet ( that has an ARM processor) at Best Buy a week ago. It didn't take 20 seconds for any of its apps to open, including Word and Excel. The Windows Mail and messenger apps don't do much unless there is an account setup to use it. Like I said, 20 seconds to open mail and messenger, I'd have to see it to believe it. Sorry, but saberahul's biased analysis failed to convince me that the Surface is as bad as that person said.

Fair enough.However, the Asus is not the surface. I had a Lenovo Yoga for testing, an awesome machine with a price that can only be called VERY resonable. It just puts the Surface Pro in to the ground, in any respect.but that was Windows8 without RT and that IS fast. Not my cup if tea, but fast.

 

[MuffCabbage]

I had Apps crash on iPad, however, never the Apple Apps like mail, facetime ect. Usually cheap (free) apps that sometimes have to be startet twice to run.

You running Windows8 on an ARM prozessor? How? Where did you get Windows8RT? Btw, call me ignorant, but what is RT standing for? Restricted Tablet? Redundend Tablet? Reconditioned Tablet? Real trouble?

The App Store crashes all the time. Like ALL the time on our iPad.

 

[Chlloret]

The App Store crashes all the time. Like ALL the time on our iPad.

The app Store? Wow, very counter productive for Apple. Never had that Problem and our iPads (300+) have all kinds of strange custom software running, loads we did ourselfs. Well, a "genius" will probably sort you out but it is strange.

 

[VenusianSky]

Fair enough.However, the Asus is not the surface. I had a Lenovo Yoga for testing, an awesome machine with a price that can only be called VERY resonable. It just puts the Surface Pro in to the ground, in any respect.but that was Windows8 without RT and that IS fast. Not my cup if tea, but fast.

You don't have to convince me anything about Windows RT devices or the ARM processor. I am well informed about each. The Lenovo Yoga has a Intel Core processor so of course it is going to run circles around a ARM. The Surface Pro is not out yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has had the chance to get a demo and review it. Do you have a source of your information regarding the Surface Pro? I would like to read it. I know the Surface Pro is also supposed to have an Intel Core processor.

I am more interested in "Pro" offerings of Windows 8 devices. iPads and Windows RT devices are not "pro" devices. (By Pro, I mean higher end performance)

 

[Eric5h5]

So we should take the opinion of some random on the internet rather than the video interview of Steve Jobs saying Apple was 90 days from bankruptcy?

Is that honestly what you are saying? Or can you just not admit when you are wrong?

The point is that it wasn't a bailout. If they were 90 days from bankruptcy with $1.2 billion in cash, then obviously $150 million would have made no difference.

--Eric

 

[Chlloret]

You don't have to convince me anything about Windows RT devices or the ARM processor. I am well informed about each. The Lenovo Yoga has a Intel Core processor so of course it is going to run circles around a ARM. The Surface Pro is not out yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has had the chance to get a demo and review it. Do you have a source of your information regarding the Surface Pro? I would like to read it. I know the Surface Pro is also supposed to have an Intel Core processor.

I am more interested in "Pro" offerings of Windows 8 devices. iPads and Windows RT devices are not "pro" devices. (By Pro, I mean higher end performance)

We had WindowsRT Surface devices for testing. Two weeks. Well, to be honest, nobody was impressed. Not the test groups, not our "geeks" we send them back, not really knowing who this thing is for. It is for sure not a tablet. You NEED the keyboard and the mouse, so really, they should pack it into a netbook. To be able to take the keyboard off is no good as you have to take it with you anyway in case you need it on the go. The Yoga concept is way better there and Lenovo is bringing out a restricted (RT) version as well.

The surface pro is suppose to come in the middle of this month, yes it comes with i5,4GB and 128GB SSD. However, it will be the same then the surface RT, in tablet form, just even heavier, louder, hotter and with less battery life. And you still have to get that flimsy Keyboard foil or a type cover to actually use it, thats why I believe the yoga is a far better solution. The yoga got "only" a 1600 resolution on 13.3", the surface full HD on 10.6 but on the yoga you could actually do some work, on the Surface a i5 seems wasted.

 

[Renzatic]

The Yoga's a neat little machine, but I don't see what's so much better about it than a Surface Pro? They're pretty much the same thing in a slightly different form factor.

 

[VenusianSky]

We had WindowsRT Surface devices for testing. Two weeks. Well, to be honest, nobody was impressed. Not the test groups, not our "geeks" we send them back, not really knowing who this thing is for. It is for sure not a tablet. You NEED the keyboard and the mouse, so really, they should pack it into a netbook. To be able to take the keyboard off is no good as you have to take it with you anyway in case you need it on the go. The Yoga concept is way better there and Lenovo is bringing out a restricted (RT) version as well.

The surface pro is suppose to come in the middle of this month, yes it comes with i5,4GB and 128GB SSD. However, it will be the same then the surface RT, in tablet form, just even heavier, louder, hotter and with less battery life. And you still have to get that flimsy Keyboard foil or a type cover to actually use it, thats why I believe the yoga is a far better solution. The yoga got "only" a 1600 resolution on 13.3", the surface full HD on 10.6 but on the yoga you could actually do some work, on the Surface a i5 seems wasted.

Personally, I am more interested in the Dell XPS 12. As for Surface Pro, other than technical specifications released, anything said about it is speculation. I would assume it will run hotter, be a bit heavier and have less battery life. It has laptop type components in it. That is the "price" you have to pay for having a tablet that performs like a laptop and can run both desktop and mobile-type apps.

I remember when the iPad was announced, many people were disappointed that it was going to run the iPhone OS. There is a market for power users and tablets. Windows 8 "pro" tablets are the only devices to tap into that market. iOS may get there one day, but the current hardware technology limits what can be packed into such small devices. Also, I feel iPads should have standard expansion capabilities, such as a USB port and/or memory card reader. Just my opinion.

 

[Chlloret]

The Yoga's a neat little machine, but I don't see what's so much better about it than a Surface Pro? They're pretty much the same thing in a slightly different form factor.

Exactly. That's making it better. Windows 8 is made for a machine like that, a convertable thought thru, no flimsy hinges, complicated origami moves (Dell,Acer)
Windows8 is NOT a tablet system, parts of it CAN be used on a tablet, the desktop can not. On the other hand, Metro is crap without touch. So, you NEED both, the touchscreen AND the keyboard/mouse.
The Surface is none of that, as a tablet too heavy, to little battery, too loud (fans on a tablet? Really?) and with a detachable keyboard that sits where when you not need it?
Windows8 will be difficould to sell as it is, but the Surface is not helping. On a device like the Yoga at least it makes sense. Every existing machine without touch, laptop or desktop, is not really interested to be upgraded, Windows7 is doing just fine. So its really for the new breed of devices, touch a must but unfortunatly, still needing a keyboard.
That is way better with Android or iOS, pure touch systems, Windows8 is not. Shame.

 

[VenusianSky]

Exactly. That's making it better. Windows 8 is made for a machine like that, a convertable thought thru, no flimsy hinges, complicated origami moves (Dell,Acer)
Windows8 is NOT a tablet system, parts of it CAN be used on a tablet, the desktop can not. On the other hand, Metro is crap without touch. So, you NEED both, the touchscreen AND the keyboard/mouse.

You are right, Windows 8 isn't a tablet system. It is better because it is a hybrid of a tablet and desktop system. The metro interface is just a full screen Start Menu. It is a misconception that it is "only good" on a touchscreen. It works perfectly fine with a keyboard and mouse. I know because I've been running it for months with a keyboard and mouse. Problem is people seem terrified of something they aren't familiar with. For those people, I say just stick with Windows 7 and don't go touchscreen on Windows.

 

[Chlloret]

Personally, I am more interested in the Dell XPS 12. As for Surface Pro, other than technical specifications released, anything said about it is speculation. I would assume it will run hotter, be a bit heavier and have less battery life. It has laptop type components in it. That is the "price" you have to pay for having a tablet that performs like a laptop and can run both desktop and mobile-type apps.

I remember when the iPad was announced, many people were disappointed that it was going to run the iPhone OS. There is a market for power users and tablets. Windows 8 "pro" tablets are the only devices to tap into that market. iOS may get there one day, but the current hardware technology limits what can be packed into such small devices. Also, I feel iPads should have standard expansion capabilities, such as a USB port and/or memory card reader. Just my opinion.

Well, I did not see the dell yet in natura, but I already do not like the hinges, it looks fragile and complicated. Of course, one has to see it first. Yes, the surface pro is speculation but even Microsoft can not performe magic, so it is pretty clear what will come. And, like I said, Windows8 is not a tablet touch system, only parts of it are, so a pure tablet is not the best solution here.
Yes, there is a market for "pro" Tablets. They exist for the last 15 years, I got some here. But the market is VERY small.
I'm still not convinced, that iOS could not work for "power" users, Apple is seriously thinking of changing in the not so far future even there Laptops and iMacs to ARM, the power is there, x86 is coming to an end. Sure, the "power" user needs USB Ports, maybe TB, Ethernet ect, something tablets are simply not meant for. I managed fine without it. I do run a full OSX Lion on my iPad and I did have Windows8 as well (with Metro) , no sweat, even over a 7Mbits 3G connection it runs quite nice and you got access to all your stuff and flash but really, on the go the normal iOS can do quite enough and of course is also evolving.

 

[mrmarts]

I will never touch a windows device again unless apple fails me so with the surface i don't care for it, plus it is an expensive paperweight i say paperweight as the last i heard the Microsoft store was a ghost town.

 

[Chlloret]

You are right, Windows 8 isn't a tablet system. It is better because it is a hybrid of a tablet and desktop system. The metro interface is just a full screen Start Menu. It is a misconception that it is "only good" on a touchscreen. It works perfectly fine with a keyboard and mouse. I know because I've been running it for months with a keyboard and mouse. Problem is people seem terrified of something they aren't familiar with. For those people, I say just stick with Windows 7 and don't go touchscreen on Windows.

Well, if a hybrid is better depends on the machine you are using it with. If you have a Surface RT or Surface Pro and need to edit an Office document on the go WITHOUT spending the $130 for a decent keyboard or forgot to bring it, have fun.
Since Microsoft failed to optimise there killer feature, Office, for touch, it simply makes no sense. So, we are back at the convertable.
You say, Metro is fine with a keyboard and mouse. Well, I have to disagree, you are scrolling forever and if its simply a full screen Starts Menue, whats wrong with the Start Menue? However, if you take the Start Menue away, you are left with Windows7 without Aero. So.......why the upgrade?

 

[MuffCabbage]

Well, if a hybrid is better depends on the machine you are using it with. If you have a Surface RT or Surface Pro and need to edit an Office document on the go WITHOUT spending the $130 for a decent keyboard or forgot to bring it, have fun.
Since Microsoft failed to optimise there killer feature, Office, for touch, it simply makes no sense. So, we are back at the convertable.
You say, Metro is fine with a keyboard and mouse. Well, I have to disagree, you are scrolling forever and if its simply a full screen Starts Menue, whats wrong with the Start Menue? However, if you take the Start Menue away, you are left with Windows7 without Aero. So.......why the upgrade?

Theres more to Windows 8 than the Start Screen

 

[VenusianSky]

Well, I did not see the dell yet in natura, but I already do not like the hinges, it looks fragile and complicated. Of course, one has to see it first. Yes, the surface pro is speculation but even Microsoft can not performe magic, so it is pretty clear what will come. And, like I said, Windows8 is not a tablet touch system, only parts of it are, so a pure tablet is not the best solution here.
Yes, there is a market for "pro" Tablets. They exist for the last 15 years, I got some here. But the market is VERY small.
I'm still not convinced, that iOS could not work for "power" users, Apple is seriously thinking of changing in the not so far future even there Laptops and iMacs to ARM, the power is there, x86 is coming to an end. Sure, the "power" user needs USB Ports, maybe TB, Ethernet ect, something tablets are simply not meant for. I managed fine without it. I do run a full OSX Lion on my iPad and I did have Windows8 as well (with Metro) , no sweat, even over a 7Mbits 3G connection it runs quite nice and you got access to all your stuff and flash but really, on the go the normal iOS can do quite enough and of course is also evolving.

I am not sure what the memory (RAM) limitation is for ARM. For x64 (Core i5 architecture), it is in the terabytes. That is an important factor to how far mobile ARM devices can go when it comes to power computing.

You run OS X on iPad? I didn't know that was even possible. How did you install it? I didn't know that OS X even supports the ARM processor.

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However, if you take the Start Menue away, you are left with Windows7 without Aero. So.......why the upgrade?

Like I said, if you really want the old start menu, stick with Windows 7.

As for the new Start Menu, I don't know why you are scrolling forever. I just drag all of the shortcuts for my frequently used apps to the far left of metro screen. They are right there when I hit the Windows key on the keyboard to take me from the desktop to metro. I found it to be quite inconvenient to click on countless folders in the old Start Menu just to launch an app. That is why I always just pinned my frequent apps to the start menu main page.

 

[Chlloret]

I am not sure what the memory (RAM) limitation is for ARM. For x64 (Core i5 architecture), it is in the terabytes. That is an important factor to how far mobile ARM devices can go when it comes to power computing.

You run OS X on iPad? I didn't know that was even possible. How did you install it? I didn't know that OS X even supports the ARM processor.

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Like I said, if you really want the old start menu, stick with Windows 7.

True, memory could be an issue, but then again, the ARM guys are not sitting on there laurels.
I have no OSX installed, nor Windows 8, on the iPad. I just run them from the iPad. My trusty iPad2 went three times around the world by now, hanging in there. I never, in 25 years, had a mobile device as sturdy, capable and versatile then the iPad (soon iPad mini)
I do not use Windows, just for testing. Thats why I do not see why someone would need Windows 8 when Windows 7 is just fine. the added touch system only works with, well, touch. But very few people have the matching hardware and the prospect of having to get hardware in the $1000 region, a new system, a learning curve and all that to run the same office then before, is not really a business model I follow.
I do not see why Windows 8 is relevant, Windows7 works. Well. If Microsoft really wants to roll up the tablet market, the market as it is today, they should bring out a real touch system and ONLY a touch system. Then you need no i5 or i7 and if its cheap enough people might aktually get it.
Otherwise:
http://dilbert.com/fast/2012-11-06/

 

[VenusianSky]

If Microsoft really wants to roll up the tablet market, the market as it is today, they should bring out a real touch system and ONLY a touch system. Then you need no i5 or i7 and if its cheap enough people might aktually get it.
Otherwise:
http://dilbert.com/fast/2012-11-06/

I don't think Microsoft wants to roll up the tablet market. They are a software company first and tablet company, maybe, 5th or 6th. I was surprised they decided to even get into the tablet hardware market. I guess they have that much money to take risks on. I am pretty sure that even if the Surface fails, it isn't going to have a major impact on the company. I would have to believe that they people working the numbers for a worse case scenario.
As for the OS, I see no negative impact by moving to a touchscreen friendly system as it seems that is the way computing is going. They already had a separate touchscreen mobile system (Windows Mobile 7). They just decided it was time to roll those features into the desktop OS because the way computing is moving to touch screens.

 

[Chlloret]

I don't think Microsoft wants to roll up the tablet market. They are a software company first and tablet company, maybe, 5th or 6th. I was surprised they decided to even get into the tablet hardware market. I guess they have that much money to take risks on. I am pretty sure that even if the Surface fails, it isn't going to have a major impact on the company. I would have to believe that they people working the numbers for a worse case scenario.
As for the OS, I see no negative impact by moving to a touchscreen friendly system as it seems that is the way computing is going. They already had a separate touchscreen mobile system (Windows Mobile 7). They just decided it was time to roll those features into the desktop OS because the way computing is moving to touch screens.

Well, its a public company, it is somewhat known how much money they have and make. Its not change. But they do bet the farm on Windows 8 and Surface. A failure is going to cost billions and shareholder do not like those scenarios.
Yes, the future is touch. And speech. But its not here yet. I think, Microsoft might just be a bit early. Lets hope not too early.
If Windows Phone 7 is anything to go by, success wise, its not looking too good.

 

[VenusianSky]

Well, its a public company, it is somewhat known how much money they have and make. Its not change. But they do bet the farm on Windows 8 and Surface. A failure is going to cost billions and shareholder do not like those scenarios.
Yes, the future is touch. And speech. But its not here yet. I think, Microsoft might just be a bit early. Lets hope not too early.
If Windows Phone 7 is anything to go by, success wise, its not looking too good.

Microsoft has plenty of successful products that they make money from other than Windows and Office. Xbox for one on the consumer market. SQL Server, Exchange, Windows Server, Windows Azure, SharePoint, Visual Studio and .Net, just to name a few in the enterprise market. They aren't betting the farm on the success of Windows 8 and Surface. Many people think they know Microsoft, as only being Windows, Office and Xbox. That isn't even close.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

The point is that it wasn't a bailout. If they were 90 days from bankruptcy with $1.2 billion in cash, then obviously $150 million would have made no difference.

--Eric

I never said that the $150M made any difference... I simply was saying they were in immediate trouble.

People also conveniently forget that MS did not just invest $150M in Apple, they also paid an undisclosed amount of cash to Apple over 2-3 years. Many analysts now believe this amount to be around $800M. This is significant.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...microsoft-monolith-apple-s-macintosh-software

http://kensegall.com/2011/01/apples-final-humiliation-of-microsoft/

http://thisdayintechhistory.com/2012/08/06/apple-and-microsoft-call-truce/

However, the reality is that with Apple holding $1.2 billion in cash at the time, $150 million was a relatively small sum of money. Some now believe the undisclosed amount of money that Microsoft paid Apple was in fact a secret settlement to the patent-infringment claims. Estimated at anywhere between $500 million to $2 billion, this was the real meat of the “cross-licensing” arrangement. It was likely this much larger undisclosed amount, along with the show of confidence that Apple would be around at least another five years, that gave Apple and Steve Jobs the breathing room needed to reinvent Apple into the most valuable company in the world.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/592FE887-5CA1-4F30-BD62-407362B533B9.html

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I do them on my NAS instead and stream when i want to watch them.

I do that as well. I just find it particularly useful when i'm away from my home network and I don't take my laptop.

I travel quite frequently so having this option is very convenient for me.