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Old Dec 5, 2012, 09:37 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Jsameds View Post
Why would someone not want to sell me something?
Why is that any of your business? Maybe the rights aren't available locally. Maybe they are favoring another distribution method. Maybe they just don't want to deal with it. Regardless, their decision not to sell to you how and when you want doesn't justify stealing it.

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Did you have permission from the University to use that logo as your Avatar?
Yep. Available from their website for this specific purpose. Nice try on the ad hominem attacks. You are 0 for 2. Not sure how they would change the argument.

I don't care that your stealing. I'm just arguing against the misinformation and justifications.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 09:54 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by ericrwalker View Post
If you use VPN to get US Netflix, at least you're paying for it. You should feel better about that than using piratebay or whatever torrents you use. Is VPN illegal? How about slingbox?
Bit of a gray area I suppose since the laws were written before such a thing existed.

The whole system needs re-thinking in my opinion. Laws need scrapping, new ones writing and the distribution model needs re-shaping.

What's needed is some more sensibly priced digital services. 15 for a digital copy of a film that you can never sell on is nothing short of a rip off, yet 6/month for Netflix with a mediocre movie selection is too cheap and not good enough.

I'd rather pay 15-25/month and have an iTunes/Netflix crossover, a great selection at a higher price. A decent service like this is needed to eliminate the need for piracy. Yes, it will always happen, but that is easily factored into the model (Such as the pricing for products as Photoshop etc)

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FYI, I find you more annoying than BMA and he's on my ignore list, so I guess it's time to add you.
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Why is that any of your business? Maybe the rights aren't available locally. Maybe they are favoring another distribution method. Maybe they just don't want to deal with it. Regardless, their decision not to sell to you how and when you want doesn't justify stealing it.



Yep. Available from their website for this specific purpose. Nice try on the ad hominem attacks. You are 0 for 2. Not sure how they would change the argument.

I don't care that your stealing. I'm just arguing against the misinformation and justifications.
I could say that I'm not stealing, but you wouldn't listen.

Getting back on topic, there are plenty of things this game developer could have done to avert disaster.
  1. Larger servers
  2. Make game only iOS 6 compatible
  3. Improve game effeciency to reduce server load
  4. In-game purcasing to increase revenue
  5. Lower game price to attract more legit users

I feel they are using piracy as an excuse.

All games get pirated yet somehow this is the only one that can't cope? Sounds fishy to me. I bet we haven't heard the full story.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 09:58 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Jsameds View Post
I could say that I'm not stealing, but you wouldn't listen.
You could say a lot of things. Doesn't make them right.

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Getting back on topic, there are plenty of things this game developer could have done to avert disaster.

Larger servers
Make game only iOS 6 compatible
Improve game effeciency to reduce server load
In-game purcasing to increase revenue
Lower game price to attract more legit users

I feel they are using piracy as an excuse.

All games get pirated yet somehow this is the only one that can't cope? Sounds fishy to me. I bet we haven't heard the full story.
Ahh, blame the victim.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:00 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Ahh, blame the victim.
But seriously, is there any good reason they can't do any of those things though? Surely that's better than shutting down?
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:07 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Jsameds View Post
But seriously, is there any good reason they can't do any of those things though? Surely that's better than shutting down?
Maybe they didn't plan on that degree of piracy. Maybe they're just not very experienced developers.

Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions without all the facts.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:14 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Maybe they didn't plan on that degree of piracy. Maybe they're just not very experienced developers.

Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions without all the facts.
Which is exactly what you've just done. I just said it sounds a bit fishy, 'tis all. Either way, it seems to me like they're using piracy as a scapegoat.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:14 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Ahh, blame the victim.
You can rail against victim blaming all you want, but that doesn't change the reality that not implementing a way to block the pirates has killed this app.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:20 AM   #283
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You can rail against victim blaming all you want, but that doesn't change the reality that not implementing a way to block the pirates has killed this app.
Absolutely.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:34 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by WestonHarvey1 View Post
You can rail against victim blaming all you want, but that doesn't change the reality that not implementing a way to block the pirates has killed this app.
In the same way that not wearing protective clothing in a warzone will get you killed. You may not like the fact bullets are flying, but the reality is they are, so you have to adapt to survive.

They'd have to be incredibly naive to have thought piracy wouldn't affect them, they must have known about it.

Whilst not totally their fault, I do feel whatever the reason for them shutting down, that their own incompetance is partly at fault.

Last edited by Jsameds; Dec 5, 2012 at 10:50 AM.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:57 AM   #285
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That's not how it works, legally. You can't be deprived of something you never had.
So you can't, for example, deprive someone of oxygen they never had?
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:01 AM   #286
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So you can't, for example, deprive someone of oxygen they never had?
If they never had it they'd be dead anyway
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:06 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by phr0ze View Post
Yeah, I should be able to steal the car if I pay for
Gas
Insurance
Licensing
Registration
Inspections
Taxes
Repairs
Maintenance

I pay into it enough.
That's a horrible analogy, because you're comparing solid theft to something far more nebulous.

Say I go out and buy a Blu-Ray movie. I sit down, I watch it once or twice, then put it away on the shelf. One day, maybe a year later, I'm going on vacation and want to watch this movie on my iPad.

I can't rip the movie directly, since it's DRMed to hell and back, and against the law to do so. And the digital copy I can buy on iTunes costs twice as much as the movie I bought. It ends up I've got two choices here. Pay for the movie again, or download it off The Pirate Bay.

I've already bought the movie once and supported the studio. Hell, I've bought whole tons of their movies in the past. So if I download a copy of something already sitting on my shelf watch it on another one of my devices, am I stealing?

If I never bought the movie, you could say that, yes, I am. Though it's not direct theft in a physical sense, like it would be if you stole a car. It's more like denial of compensation. But since I already bought and own a copy...

...which is right, and which is wrong?

Though as far as this app goes, it's just pathetic on the pirates part. It costs 5 bucks. There's no reason not to pay for the damn thing.

Last edited by Renzatic; Dec 5, 2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:16 AM   #288
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This story smells IMO. Any developer should take so called piracy into account when scaling up their models and either be prepared for the extra traffic and publicity they're about to receive or develop preventive measures to keep them at bay. Blame it on the convenient "pirates" is only a convenient way to bail out for whichever reasons they may have.

As for piracy, you really believe that humans love to pay money in order to discover new and amazing things in this internet age? I do respect devs work and I do pay for it but when a means for trying first doesn't exist, I either move away or try other means.

I think the current business model is broken where you need to pay upfront to try. If it works for you it's great for everybody but if it doesn't it's still great for the dev as it doesn't need to scale up but the customer has to suck it up for trying.
You are a thief, plain and simple. It is purely the right of the seller to decide whether you can try his product before buying it or not. If you are unwilling to buy without a trial, you may not use his product. Fathers of potential brides often adhere to this approach.

If you are ever charged and brought to trial you better hope no one like me is making, enforcing, or judging under the law. I would apply a harsher punishment to a thief than to a man who kills his wife found in flagrante. The latter acts out of passion and uncontrollable rage that won't be deterred. The thieving pirate makes a cold, calculating decision to deprive a fellow human being of his property. Since pirates are expensive to catch, deterrence is more efficient. I think administering an anti-piracy vaccine intervenously would cut down the incidence of piracy markedly. I'm sure the witnesses on the other side of the plexiglass will be moved by your explanation that you were just stealing it to test it and fully intended to expiate your crime by eventually paying for it maybe.

Go tell your mother she did a lousy job raising you.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:40 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by ericrwalker View Post
I guess you subscribe to this theory. Regardless, piracy is taking something that doesn't belong to you, in an illegal manner. Try to justify it any way you want, but you're wrong.

Image
I like the analogy one if the Great Old Dead Dudes made. Copying ideas is like sharing your candlelight so somebody can light their own candle. Overall the world has more light.

Except if everybody "shares"... Nobody can afford matches and the time to learn to MAKE fire. Piracy is the group "punishing" the people resourceful enough to light their candle ON THEIR OWN. ... A society that can't create NEW fire isn't going to last long on a windy, rainy nite.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:49 AM   #290
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I haven't heard that one before, but I like it. Thanks for sharing.


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Originally Posted by mabhatter View Post
I like the analogy one if the Great Old Dead Dudes made. Copying ideas is like sharing your candlelight so somebody can light their own candle. Overall the world has more light.

Except if everybody "shares"... Nobody can afford matches and the time to learn to MAKE fire. Piracy is the group "punishing" the people resourceful enough to light their candle ON THEIR OWN. ... A society that can't create NEW fire isn't going to last long on a windy, rainy nite.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:54 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by phr0ze View Post
Ok so you have a license to redistribute Valve's work, Highly unlikely.



LOL are we justifying another type of theft. Free to Use since you are not making money off it? Sounds like what the pirates say.



Your use on a forum as an avatar for self/brand recognition doesn't fall under that definition. While I'll trust that the image was on Valves site and if you say they included words that specifically say you may redistribute the work, then fine. There doesn't appear to be anything like that now. There are videos, screen shots, and music. But I don't see anything that says you can redistribute the copyrighted work. Infact I see a 'All rights reserved' statement at the bottom of the page.

Again, nice try but read what I wrote. Valve put them on their for their fans to use. They wouldn't have made an avatar section if they didn't want people to use them as avatars.

Stop trying to justify theft. If valve CHARGED for these, and I didn't buy one yes, its theft. They didn't charge for these and put them up for anyone to use.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:07 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
And their rights under the law! I'm not sure how you keep ignoring this fact. How do you discuss things in a "legal sense" and avoid legal rights? Legal rights are what gives things value under a modern economic system.

You just keep picking and choosing what legal rights fit your argument.
OK - since you insist on carrying on with this.

You have the exclusive rights to distribute an app. I download a copy from a file sharing website (which suggests that the exclusive distribution "right" was broken already) and do not distribute it. I haven't changed your rights to exclusively distribute it - your right to do so is completely unmodified. Now, *sharing* the application is different, however that's not what we're talking about here.

That's not picking and choosing which ones fit my argument, that's using the ones you think will fit yours. Also, I'm yet to think of a specific right that is actually *removed* by downloading a "pirated app" (note, removal isn't the avoidance of - i.e. by downloading an app you haven't removed somebody's right to charge for an app, since they can still charge for it).

Again, I'm not justifying piracy, I'm just saying it's not theft.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:13 PM   #293
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Stop trying to justify theft. If valve CHARGED for these, and I didn't buy one yes, its theft. They didn't charge for these and put them up for anyone to use.
I dunno what the guy is even getting at. It's a screenshot from a game you're using as an avatar on a forum. It's copyright infringement only in the absolute strictest most anal retentive definition of the phrase.

...and it doesn't do any harm to Valve. If anything it's quite the opposite, since it could work as indirect advertising. It's kinda like making your own Apple logo and sticking it on your car. You're not selling them, so what's the harm in it?

I'll say this, when you can't show fan appreciation for something without worrying about getting accused of infringement, you know things have gone too far.

----------

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Originally Posted by bma View Post
Again, I'm not justifying piracy, I'm just saying it's not theft.
Right, I'm sticking by my "denial of compensation" line. It's not theft by the letter of the law, since the only thing anyone's been deprived of is payment.

That doesn't excuse anyone from going out and doing it. But those who do aren't "thieves" exactly. Rather, they're cheap bastards.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:44 PM   #294
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You have the exclusive rights to distribute an app. I download a copy from a file sharing website (which suggests that the exclusive distribution "right" was broken already) and do not distribute it. I haven't changed your rights to exclusively distribute it - your right to do so is completely unmodified. Now, *sharing* the application is different, however that's not what we're talking about here.

That's not picking and choosing which ones fit my argument, that's using the ones you think will fit yours. Also, I'm yet to think of a specific right that is actually *removed* by downloading a "pirated app" (note, removal isn't the avoidance of - i.e. by downloading an app you haven't removed somebody's right to charge for an app, since they can still charge for it).

Again, I'm not justifying piracy, I'm just saying it's not theft.
Again, you are just playing with words that you don't seem to understand. You talk about discussing thing in a "legal sense" and then make up your own definitions while ignoring any legal concepts. You seem to want to make a distinction between violating someone's rights and depriving them of those rights. There isn't.

You have been provided with several definitions of the word "theft" that apply to piracy. Just because you want to go by your own interpretation of the word doesn't mean the other definitions don't exist. This is starting to feel like one of those silly arguments that claim an iPad is not a computer because of some made up definition of the word "computer".

Quote:
That's not picking and choosing which ones fit my argument, that's using the ones you think will fit yours.
That's how words work. To call something "theft", I only need one accepted definition that fits. To say that I'm wrong, you need to eliminate all reasonable definitions.

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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
It's not theft by the letter of the law,
Which law?

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since the only thing anyone's been deprived of is payment.
Again, it's already been established that you can steal a service. Laws have been quoted and everything.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:56 PM   #295
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I dunno what the guy is even getting at. It's a screenshot from a game you're using as an avatar on a forum. It's copyright infringement only in the absolute strictest most anal retentive definition of the phrase.

...and it doesn't do any harm to Valve. If anything it's quite the opposite, since it could work as indirect advertising. It's kinda like making your own Apple logo and sticking it on your car. You're not selling them, so what's the harm in it?

I'll say this, when you can't show fan appreciation for something without worrying about getting accused of infringement, you know things have gone too far.[COLOR="#808080"]
I don't get what he's getting at either. I give up. I'll let him think he's right by saying its OK to steal.

Valve releases these things as marketing and freebies to the fans. Game companies LOVE when people display their stuff and/or create fan art based off of it because it gets the word out about their game. If they didn't like it you wouldn't find avatars, wallpapers, ring tones, etc on Valves site.

Just don't steal the game and everything is good.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:59 PM   #296
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Stop trying to justify theft. If valve CHARGED for these, and I didn't buy one yes, its theft. They didn't charge for these and put them up for anyone to use.
Since when did I try to justify theft?

BTW, whether or not they charge for them does not mean you are free to use it any way you like.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:09 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post

Which law?
I should've said definition of the term.

But then we'd have to get into what's covered under the term "property", which'll likely then launch into a discussion about "intellectual property", and if each individual instance of a piece of digital media could be considered the copyright holder's property.

And then we'd get into the issues I brought up above, like could it be considered theft for downloading a digital copy of a song or movie you already own on a physical medium?

It could go on and on and on.

Quote:
Again, it's already been established that you can steal a service. Laws have been quoted and everything.
That does murky things up a bit. But I could argue that stealing a service like cable could be considered theft since you have to bypass a physical block to gain access to it.

Once again. On and on and on.

Though I do think we all agree on one thing: it's not right. Even though I take a more lax attitude regarding certain issues contained with the broader scope of copyright infringement, I do think that if you enjoy something, you should pay the people who made it as at least a sign of respect and support.

...and there's absolutely no good reason I can think of for pirating a goddamn $5 app.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:17 PM   #298
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I feel like the developers could have priced it lower than $5 I guarantee more people would have bought it instead of pirating it.
They would've pirated it even at 99 cents.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:20 PM   #299
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Since when did I try to justify theft?

BTW, whether or not they charge for them does not mean you are free to use it any way you like.
So you're saying that when Valve posts "avatars" I can't use it as an avatar? When they posted ringtones I can't use them as a ringtone? When they post wallpapers I can't use them as wallpapers?

Seriously, you lost this argument. I'm done.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:20 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I should've said definition of the term.

But then we'd have to get into what's covered under the term "property", which'll likely then launch into a discussion about "intellectual property", and if each individual instance of a piece of digital media could be considered the copyright holder's property.

And then we'd get into the issues I brought up above, like could it be considered theft for downloading a digital copy of a song or movie you already own on a physical medium?

It could go on and on and on.



That does murky things up a bit. But I could argue that stealing a service like cable could be considered theft since you have to bypass a physical block to gain access to it.

Once again. On and on and on.

Though I do think we all agree on one thing: it's not right. Even though I take a more lax attitude regarding certain issues contained with the broader scope of copyright infringement, I do think that if you enjoy something, you should pay the people who made it as at least a sign of respect and support.

...and there's absolutely no good reason I can think of for pirating a goddamn $5 app.
Good summary of the issues!
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