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Old Dec 4, 2012, 01:12 PM   #76
TheHateMachine
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
I 1000% agree on releasing with the Atom processor, this is what allows MS to compete with the ipad pound for pound in EVERY category, with the exception of having a real OS. MS left this category to the OEMs, who fubared it by not having anything ready for release. I'm very surprised MS isn't releasing an Atom surface.

Windows 8 isn't that bad. If you look at the desktop side by itself there were many improvements under the hood, certainly enough to justify $40 upgrade. Metro does suck though, but you aren't really forced to use it and it will be the key to the future if MS can improve it.
I personally think the Atom should have gone into the Surface RT and not even had RT at all. That being said I still like my RT

However for the Pro I would rather have an i5 over the Atom. The current high end Atoms lack in memory capacity and GPU prowess.

Laugh while you can, one of things that I will enjoy about the Surface Pro is the capacity for "Vidya" games. I already run a similar specced laptop with last gens i5 and Intel HD 3000 and it pumps out some decent 720p gameplay for my current library of games. Also the programs I use for work have higher CPU, GPU and Memory Cap requirements than what the current gen Atoms can provide.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 01:13 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
I 1000% agree on releasing with the Atom processor, this is what allows MS to compete with the ipad pound for pound in EVERY category, with the exception of having a real OS. MS left this category to the OEMs, who fubared it by not having anything ready for release. I'm very surprised MS isn't releasing an Atom surface.

Windows 8 isn't that bad. If you look at the desktop side by itself there were many improvements under the hood, certainly enough to justify $40 upgrade. Metro does suck though, but you aren't really forced to use it and it will be the key to the future if MS can improve it.

I like you SpineDoc, but you are wrong on this. We are being forced to use Metro. Yea, you can avoid it by staying in desktop mode, but you have to change quite a few things just to stay away from Metro. File Associations to video and pictures to name one. There is no option to disable it and we have no choice to go back to the start menu (unless you want to buy or download a third party crap).
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 01:32 PM   #78
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I like you SpineDoc, but you are wrong on this. We are being forced to use Metro. Yea, you can avoid it by staying in desktop mode, but you have to change quite a few things just to stay away from Metro. File Associations to video and pictures to name one. There is no option to disable it and we have no choice to go back to the start menu (unless you want to buy or download a third party crap).
I have to disagree with you there. I never see Metro outside of first boot. I go into the desktop and all my programs/shortcuts are either pinned or on my desktop. It is possible to avoid it outside of maybe the 1-2 seconds you have to see it while you hit your desktop tile.

Granted you are right about not being able to delete it. Ideally if they would have retained the boot to desktop option things would be perfect. However, I do not find one simple click/key stroke and a glimpse of Modern UI that bad.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 02:21 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by TheHateMachine View Post
I personally think the Atom should have gone into the Surface RT and not even had RT at all. That being said I still like my RT

However for the Pro I would rather have an i5 over the Atom. The current high end Atoms lack in memory capacity and GPU prowess.

Laugh while you can, one of things that I will enjoy about the Surface Pro is the capacity for "Vidya" games. I already run a similar specced laptop with last gens i5 and Intel HD 3000 and it pumps out some decent 720p gameplay for my current library of games. Also the programs I use for work have higher CPU, GPU and Memory Cap requirements than what the current gen Atoms can provide.
Absolutely! RT should never ever have existed. MS should have released a non Pro tablet using the Atom processor, and a Pro tablet using ivy bridge.

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I like you SpineDoc, but you are wrong on this. We are being forced to use Metro. Yea, you can avoid it by staying in desktop mode, but you have to change quite a few things just to stay away from Metro. File Associations to video and pictures to name one. There is no option to disable it and we have no choice to go back to the start menu (unless you want to buy or download a third party crap).
I've had a windows tablet for about a month now and I don't feel as if I'm forced to use Metro. I probably have used it 3 or 4 times in a month. I have had to switch some file associations though as you mention, like switching the default browser to IE10 desktop so that opens up whenever I hit a link.

I think MS realized that Metro was half baked and was not ready to be shoved down peoples throats, that's why windows 8 has the dual nature desktop and touch and they seem so far apart. We should see touch and desktop continue to melt together, although IMO MS should have waited another year, melted them together better and then released it with NO desktop at all. Of course they didn't have a year, already being 3 years late to the party.

I think it's crucial to MS strategy to force Metro on users, although in its current iteration I don't see it being forced very much. It's just too bad that Metro is crappy and just not ready for prime time yet.

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I have to disagree with you there. I never see Metro outside of first boot. I go into the desktop and all my programs/shortcuts are either pinned or on my desktop. It is possible to avoid it outside of maybe the 1-2 seconds you have to see it while you hit your desktop tile.

Granted you are right about not being able to delete it. Ideally if they would have retained the boot to desktop option things would be perfect. However, I do not find one simple click/key stroke and a glimpse of Modern UI that bad.
There are lots of programs which let you boot right to desktop and virtually never see the metro screen, you can even remap your windows key to go to the desktop, or open the start bar if you reinstalled it. ClassicShell http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ is pretty awesome for both those things.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 02:31 PM   #80
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There are lots of programs which let you boot right to desktop and virtually never see the metro screen, you can even remap your windows key to go to the desktop, or open the start bar if you reinstalled it. ClassicShell http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ is pretty awesome for both those things.
Yea, all great options! But part of Black Magic's point was how it isn't something built in and you have to do some computer hackery (even though it is minimal) to get around it.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:12 PM   #81
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Yea, all great options! But part of Black Magic's point was how it isn't something built in and you have to do some computer hackery (even though it is minimal) to get around it.
Yeah I can't argue with that. I know MS strategy is to force users to use the Metro start as a replacement for the old start menu, but it just seems as if they didn't have time to build in the proper functionality. Simple things such as creating folders is something you scratch your head and try to figure out how to manage dozens of programs all just splayed out for you to scroll through.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:28 PM   #82
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Although Microsoft is making a huge mess of things I give them a lot of credit for having the balls to do what no one else is doing. *Releasing a full OS on a tablet and having to redo their entire OS to fit it. *I'm not saying they are doing a particularly good job of it, but they still have balls to turn on a dime like that.
Yes, good for Microsoft having the guts to do something different, but in the end it doesn't matter if it isn't done well. Apple has the smarts (and I dare say, the guts) to NOT do something if it can't be done well -- I believe Jobs said something to the effect of being as proud of the products he did NOT make as of those he did. I have no doubt that somewhere in Apple's secret labs, they have people working on "full" OS X for tablet -- it likely runs even better than Win8. But Apple won't release it until it's complete. None of this, "Oh, it's half-baked but they are trying" bull.

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Yea, all great options! But part of Black Magic's point was how it isn't something built in and you have to do some computer hackery (even though it is minimal) to get around it.
Exactly. I know Win8 has all these under-the-hood improvements over Win7, but whenever I think of upgrading, I think of all the tweaking I'd have to do to avoid Metro, and I find myself saying "pass."*
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:52 PM   #83
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Exactly. I know Win8 has all these under-the-hood improvements over Win7, but whenever I think of upgrading, I think of all the tweaking I'd have to do to avoid Metro, and I find myself saying "pass."*
It is honestly very minimal. If you install over win 7 it retains your desktop and settings. All you really need to do is install either Classic Shell or use a pre written script in your Startup folder and it will boot into Desktop. I did virtually nothing on my machine and never use Modern. All i had to do was merge my Administrator account with my Live ID... even if you do not use a Live Login and just local accounts you do not even have to do that. AT 40 bucks why not give it a spin!
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 04:07 PM   #84
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It is honestly very minimal. If you install over win 7 it retains your desktop and settings. All you really need to do is install either Classic Shell or use a pre written script in your Startup folder and it will boot into Desktop. I did virtually nothing on my machine and never use Modern. All i had to do was merge my Administrator account with my Live ID... even if you do not use a Live Login and just local accounts you do not even have to do that. AT 40 bucks why not give it a spin!
Appreciate the tip. Maybe one day when I'm feeling a bit more adventurous. Right now I'm exhausted from having to setup/restore my iPad mini and my iPhone 5 -- just got the mini, and then the iPhone developed this problem that required a restore. There's only so much system tweaking I can handle before I say "enough!"
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 08:40 PM   #85
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I If you look at the desktop side by itself there were many improvements under the hood,
Oh, i agree, i'm all for IE10, the extensions to powershell, the faster startup, improved power management, etc.

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certainly enough to justify $40 upgrade. Metro does suck though, but you aren't really forced to use it and it will be the key to the future if MS can improve it.
This I don't necessarily agree with.

The problem is that in those areas where there are improvements, Windows 7 is close enough.

But sooner or later people will either be forced onto Win8 or to jump ship to something else. Win7 has issues with 4k sector drives, won't be getting DirectX updates, IE updates beyond IE10, etc. The version of Office after 2013 probably won't run on it either.


It's also interesting to note that in terms of sales figures, the 40 million number that MS is throwing around is including corporates on enterprise licensing programs.

i.e., the company i work for has 650 desktop licenses for Microsoft OS + virus scanner + office, etc.

As soon as win8 was released, we were entitled to upgrade to Win8.

Which means according to MS sales figures, we have "purchased" 650 copies of Win8.

There are 2 coipies of it installed in the company thus far, and no immediate plans to consider deployment until Windows 7 becomes too hard to support.


So... take win8 sales figures (or any sales figures they put out for that matter) with a big handful of salt.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:44 AM   #86
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People need to stop confusing Metro with the start screen. They are not the same thing.

We have rolled out Win8/Office 2013 to about 100 users so far and getting ready to do another 1000 soon. People love it surprisingly - never underestimate people's love for eye candy - but they really love the new features like DirectAccess (yes this was possible with win7 but it was a nightmare to deploy - with win8/2012 it takes about 6 clicks). Pretty slick.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 09:40 AM   #87
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People need to stop confusing Metro with the start screen. They are not the same thing.

We have rolled out Win8/Office 2013 to about 100 users so far and getting ready to do another 1000 soon. People love it surprisingly - never underestimate people's love for eye candy - but they really love the new features like DirectAccess (yes this was possible with win7 but it was a nightmare to deploy - with win8/2012 it takes about 6 clicks). Pretty slick.
Metro IS the start screen, or at least that is people's first experience with Metro. Just as you can say the Desktop is windows 7 (or 8 for that matter). I'm obviously a huge Microsoft fanboy, but even I have to admit Metro is pretty bad. The good thing is MS can recover from this, there are many ways they can improve the functionality of the Metro start screen and Metro itself, as well as how programs function in Metro.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:17 AM   #88
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Jumped the gun and bought the Sony Vaio Duo 11 despite the negative reviews I've read (Don't laugh at me please).

It should be coming in today, I'll post impressions later if anyone is interested.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:25 AM   #89
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Seriously speaking, I rather buy a second hand Windows 7 PC than a Windows 8 one. Just not use to the metro UI, I'm better off with Windows 7 even though in Windows 8 you can toggle between both interfaces.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:26 AM   #90
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Seriously speaking, I rather buy a second hand Windows 7 PC than a Windows 8 one. Just not use to the metro UI, I'm better off with Windows 7 even though in Windows 8 you can toggle between both interfaces.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:40 AM   #91
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Wow a hero

Three words dripping with sarcasm.

Sorry if it affects you or something. Just my personal preference. I'm just not accustomed to working with something I don't fully understand.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:45 AM   #92
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Three words dripping with sarcasm.

Sorry if it affects you or something. Just my personal preference. I'm just not accustomed to working with something I don't fully understand.
I agree with what you said. I have zero interest in windows 8 and think it will go the way of vista. The metro side is useless on a PC.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:53 AM   #93
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I agree with what you said. I have zero interest in windows 8 and think it will go the way of vista. The metro side is useless on a PC.
Yeah it's almost like running iOS on a Mac...

Too late for Microsoft to do anything about it. They can't seem to see anything bad about the cluttered user interface.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:57 AM   #94
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I gotta get me one of those Microsoft iPads...
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:59 AM   #95
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I gotta get me one of those Microsoft iPads...
You either get a microsoft, or you get an iPad. There is no "Microsoft iPad"..
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 10:06 AM   #96
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You either get a microsoft, or you get an iPad. There is no "Microsoft iPad"..
I meant the Sony iPadů

Or maybe just an iTouch...
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:13 PM   #97
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Why would anyone want the pro to have an atom processor?

Do you want it to be horribly slow and laggy? Atom processors are horrible.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:18 PM   #98
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Real world Surface RT is over 8 hours. 8 to over 10.
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Thats the RT, based on low power consuming ARM chips. Not an i5 that is in the Pro.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:43 PM   #99
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I didn't know that Surface's promising around 4.dhrs of battery life on their long awaited "Pro" tablet ;-)

They probably haven't had enough time to decently engineer their "tablet" (or tablet-like laptop) to last my day on the go. Sad Microsoft. Very sad you're still calling it a tablet.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:48 PM   #100
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I didn't know that Surface's promising around 4.dhrs of battery life on their long awaited "Pro" tablet ;-)

They probably haven't had enough time to decently engineer their "tablet" (or tablet-like laptop) to last my day on the go. Sad Microsoft. Very sad you're still calling it a tablet.
It is a tablet.

You can use this without the keyboard in the same way you can use the iPad without a keyboard or the Nexus 10 without a keyboard.
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