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Tablets Microsoft Surface Pro - WTF?
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Not unless you understand their strategy. I agree, I don't think they will sell a huge amount of surface Pros, but I look at the surface Pro as more of a tech demo and a lesson to the OEMs on how to make and price hardware, they are setting the bar. The problem is that many are not understanding MS strategy. They took the low and high ground with RT and an ivy bridge Pro unit, leaving the middle ground to the OEMS, the area where windows tablets will have the most impact, that is the cloverfield tablets. Once we can get full windows tablets out there which cost the same as an ipad, have the same battery life, are just as thin, etc etc is when we will see the full impact of truly having a real OS on a tablet.
The problem is the OEM's are being complete slackers. Only a couple of cloverfield tablets are out 1 1/2 months after windows was released, with only a handful being pushed back for the end of December and maybe into next year. This is hurting MS badly. If the OEMs had a strong showing of the cloverfield tablets at Windows launch they would have made a huge impact. But don't count them out, windows is pretty ubiquitous on desktops and laptops, there is no reason it won't be the same on tablets given enough time and money.
Yea, or you could just run Mac Office
I have Mac Office 2011. In fact, it was so good that after trying it for a week I also got Parallels, a Windows license, and "real" office, which at retail would cost almost as much as a surface pro just for software...
If you want to run very basic spreadsheets (no analysis, no complex graphs) it works. Wanting "advanced" features such as linear regression, I ended up paying again, a lot of money, for Statplus, what a mistake. I could have gotten the free version to find out it does not work correctly when it works at all.
Mac Word is just fine for opening up a two page document, but oh how I feel for you if you need a big one. Once you get to the 30,000 word count point, I hope you do not try to open and show a file during a live presentation like I did, because it takes MINUTES to fully open, and the file stops loading unless the application is at the forefront. If you want a special treat, create a big graph in excel mac and paste it in a word mac file, that combination is literally a "scroll stopper". My latest office Mac test is on a 2.6ghz/16gb rmbp, which should not be choking on these files. Big data sets in R run smoothly, huge visualizations in JMP are great.
Office 2011 works, which is more than you can say for the previous versions, but that is about all you can say. For actual productivity, it is terribly lacking. While on the Mac, I am doing even basic analysis work in R or JMP, which is unfortunate because this a wonderful application task for windows excel.
So, if my option is to have an 11" MBA, plus three pieces of software, all to emulate windows which will further hurt battery life, I think I may as well look at small Windows 8 devices plus the single piece of Office software.
I like OSX (although less and less), but it is flat out not there yet in terms of interfacing with corporate and productivity software, which I need to do. For users like me, where a small laptop is a work device, the Surface Pro looks fascinating.
The bottom line is the Surface Pro is not out. Maybe it stinks, maybe it is awesome, but I for one will be at the Microsoft store, money in hand, ready to give it a try, and with this product I hope they succeed.
Apple and MS seem to be playing just nicely enough with each other that it is no longer completely intolerable to work between platforms. It is still not a pleasant experience.
Have you installed Service Pack 2 on Office for Mac 2011? I wonder if Office 365 would be ideal for you and save you money? Office 365 would bring Office for Mac 14.3 and probably would resolve some of your issues.
Truth be told you need a PC/laptop if you want Office running like intended. The Surface Pro might be right up your alley.
What is with the fanbois here? They must really be feeling threatened by Microsoft to have their panties in such a bunch.
The Surface Pro is a halo product and it isn't for everyone. For me and a lot of others it's going to be a fantastic ultraportable travel device. Same guts as a MBA with a slimmer/lighter profile, higher-res screen, similar or better battery life, touch, and tablet form factor. All for the same price. Win. Will be able to run a friggin Hyper-V lab on the thing for Christ's sake.
The big question for me is whether or not we'll be able to wipe and load Win8 Enterprise. I assume that it will be fully accessible just as a laptop; trying to get clarification on this.
The Surface Pro is a halo product and it isn't for everyone. For me and a lot of others it's going to be a fantastic ultraportable travel device. Same guts as a MBA with a slimmer/lighter profile, higher-res screen, similar or better battery life, touch, and tablet form factor. All for the same price. Win. Will be able to run a friggin Hyper-V lab on the thing for Christ's sake.
The big question for me is whether or not we'll be able to wipe and load Win8 Enterprise. I assume that it will be fully accessible just as a laptop; trying to get clarification on this.
Done well, the surface pro would be amazing. A product that replaces both a laptop and a tablet. Basically a tablet that you can really create stuff on and be compatible with "real world" applications.
However, I kind of doubt it'll happen. IMHO Windows 8 is a failure from the start. It's like Microsoft is a too big company and nobody is able to stand up and say "hey this is crap, we can't ship this". The experience is horrible. You basically get two operating systems in one and they aren't connected to one another. First time I booted a windows 8 machine, ok I'll start by opening IE on the metro interface. Then you somehow manage to switch into the aero interface an it's basically impossible to launch app. I somehow managed to launch IE in there as well. And WTF I'm running two separate web browsers? And it's not intuitive at all and it seems to me like a crippled desktop experience and probably a crippled tablet experience (I haven't tried it on a tablet mind you). How is it that you have to get your pointer in a corner to launch things. I don't see how they can expect the average user to pick it up and go to town. I've used many different OS and I'm usually very quick at learning software. But even after 2h I was still getting confused by win8 and it's just clunky. Seems like a hack to me...
To me it seems like the operating system was made for devices like the surface, a kind of hybrid that at times it would make sense to use the touch interface and at time it would make sense to use it like a desktop. However, it still doesn't seem intuitive. One of the reason you'd want to use a single device is that you could just switch from laptop to tablet mode and keep working on the same stuff. Not really as the metro apps are separate.
Hardware wise, I think the surface RT is okay. However, it seems like the pro falls between a rock and a hard place. It's either a super powerful tablet that a bit too big and heavy and has horrible battery life or it's a laptop that's pretty slow. The thing is, these kinds of devices should really be running on ARM processors. Especially looking at the future, they will get enough ram to be able to do decent multi tasking. The processor is already fast enough to do most desktop tasks the average person does on his laptop/desktop. The problem is there's no app on RT. It's a bit of chicken/egg problem.
To me it seems like it does both aspects badly. I also think that most people don't really need both at the same time so they might as well get both a cheap tablet and a decent laptop.
What I'm looking forward to is the development in Ubuntu for Android on tablets. This could be amazing. Best of both worlds. Running ARM, getting a whole lot of desktop apps and getting one of the most rich touch device app store as well. That way you'd get a very good touch/tablet experience. Connect a a keyboard/mouse/trackpad or dock it with something like the surface cover or use a transformer dock and it becomes a decent enough laptop. It probably wouldn't replace your #1 computer in your house but it wouldn't be priced like it either.
However, I kind of doubt it'll happen. IMHO Windows 8 is a failure from the start. It's like Microsoft is a too big company and nobody is able to stand up and say "hey this is crap, we can't ship this". The experience is horrible. You basically get two operating systems in one and they aren't connected to one another. First time I booted a windows 8 machine, ok I'll start by opening IE on the metro interface. Then you somehow manage to switch into the aero interface an it's basically impossible to launch app. I somehow managed to launch IE in there as well. And WTF I'm running two separate web browsers? And it's not intuitive at all and it seems to me like a crippled desktop experience and probably a crippled tablet experience (I haven't tried it on a tablet mind you). How is it that you have to get your pointer in a corner to launch things. I don't see how they can expect the average user to pick it up and go to town. I've used many different OS and I'm usually very quick at learning software. But even after 2h I was still getting confused by win8 and it's just clunky. Seems like a hack to me...
To me it seems like the operating system was made for devices like the surface, a kind of hybrid that at times it would make sense to use the touch interface and at time it would make sense to use it like a desktop. However, it still doesn't seem intuitive. One of the reason you'd want to use a single device is that you could just switch from laptop to tablet mode and keep working on the same stuff. Not really as the metro apps are separate.
Hardware wise, I think the surface RT is okay. However, it seems like the pro falls between a rock and a hard place. It's either a super powerful tablet that a bit too big and heavy and has horrible battery life or it's a laptop that's pretty slow. The thing is, these kinds of devices should really be running on ARM processors. Especially looking at the future, they will get enough ram to be able to do decent multi tasking. The processor is already fast enough to do most desktop tasks the average person does on his laptop/desktop. The problem is there's no app on RT. It's a bit of chicken/egg problem.
To me it seems like it does both aspects badly. I also think that most people don't really need both at the same time so they might as well get both a cheap tablet and a decent laptop.
What I'm looking forward to is the development in Ubuntu for Android on tablets. This could be amazing. Best of both worlds. Running ARM, getting a whole lot of desktop apps and getting one of the most rich touch device app store as well. That way you'd get a very good touch/tablet experience. Connect a a keyboard/mouse/trackpad or dock it with something like the surface cover or use a transformer dock and it becomes a decent enough laptop. It probably wouldn't replace your #1 computer in your house but it wouldn't be priced like it either.
Everything you describe is correct about Surface Pro. But how is this different than shuffling between a laptop and an iPad? The point is that many people (especially business users) still can't get rid of their laptops. This is one way to get down to a single device.
I'll use a car analogy. You need a 4wd truck and a car. Do you buy both or a nice carlike 4wd SUV? Not the best car or truck but does the job.
How many business users are actually going to want to do real 'laptop' work on a 10" screen when it comes down to it though? Sure, a few, for whom mobility is the ultimate metric, but for most business travelers, carrying an extra pound or two of tech that is better suited to doing their job is really no big deal. Not to mention how many people who now travel with their company owned (and monitored) laptop, and 'their' tablet.
My guess is that this market expands for a while, but never really gains that much traction and then people realize how much it sucks working on a tiny screen.
You'll likely see other larger screen options like 11.6" and 13.3". Plus you can always hook up to a monitor via HDMI when you're at your desk.
I agree it's a limiting experience compared to two best of breed devices. But I see Windows 8 hybrids adapting faster for this purpose than iOS on the iPad is becoming a true laptop replacement.
The iPad is not a laptop replacement. Apple has laptops. The iPad is a tablet. Neither Apple nor Google market their tablets as laptop replacements. To be fair, I doubt Microsoft believes the Surface, with its limitations in battery life, screen size, and storage can be a true laptop replacement. They are looking to fill a niche that they hope Google and Apple have missed. I doubt this niche actually exists but at this point, they have to do something. An entire world wide generation is growing up with Android and iOS devices.
But the topic of this thread is Surface Pro, not Win8 hybrids in general. So yes, future Win8 hybrids might resolve the problems with Surface Pro, but that is not relevant to the question of whether the Surface Pro, as it is when it is released in January 2013, makes a decent business device or not.
As for iOS, I think its strength is in not trying to be a laptop replacement. It is a device that is an addition to laptop/desktop. Having the iPad doesn't mean that I can get rid of my iMac or my MacBook Air. But it does mean that I can read books, surf the internet, post to forums, etc, in bed or on sofa on my iPad, and my Air stays mostly at the office instead of being carried home everyday so I can use it to read in bed -- which wasn't a very comfortable experience, what with the keyboard taking up space in my lap. Or I had to sit at my desk in front of my iMac to surf the web instead of doing it from my bed.
When Jobs introduced the iPad, he asked if there was room in people's lives for another device in between the smartphone and the laptop. He didn't say the iPad will replace either. Microsoft, otoh, does want Win8 devices to "replace" the laptop, or be a hybrid that can switch between being a laptop and being a tablet. While I'm not denying that such a device would eventually exist and be the most common form of mobile computing device, I think Microsoft is forcing it before the technology is quite there. All the Win8 hybrids remind me of early cell phones that weighed a ton and were hardly mobile. The promise is there, but the use experience is still not quite right for widespread general adoption,
And I think adapting iOS to add full "desktop" functions is a lot easier than people realize. Apps like GoodReader and FileBrowser already do quite a good job of giving iOS a quasi file system. And under the hood, iOS and OS X are very very close, as anyone with a jailbroken iOS device can see. It's not that Apple can't merge iOS and OS X -- they could do it tomorrow if they wanted to. They just believe that the two should remain separate, for now.
Remember how everyone said Apple should make netbooks? Instead, they made the iPad and 11 Air, and netbooks just sort of fell off the radar. I'm expecting something similar to happen with the laptop/tablet hybrid situation. Well, if Jobs were still alive, I'd say it was 100% certain Apple would come up with something that would supersede those hybrids. With Steve gone.... we'll see.
Uhh, I've experienced many of the problems you mention when working with large or complex documents but I've also experienced them under the Windows version of Office as well.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
I went to the Microsoft Store in Boston Prudential Center this past weekend. First off, not only is the entire store a horrifically blatant rip-off of an Apple Store, I was there for 20/30 minutes and did not see even 1 person purchase anything.
As more and more news flows in that the Surface RT is an overwhelming failure, I find it hard to believe that the Pro will even have a chance to succeed out of the gate.
It's unfortunate because more competition is always good, but M$ screwed up on this monumentally.
As more and more news flows in that the Surface RT is an overwhelming failure, I find it hard to believe that the Pro will even have a chance to succeed out of the gate.
It's unfortunate because more competition is always good, but M$ screwed up on this monumentally.
I don't understand why people cut MS slack and hold out for the next release (of either hardware or software) that will solve all the problems (hopefully), especially when history suggests that they don't operate that way and things won't play out that way.
And I'll agree with others who have noted some significant problems running Office on a windows PC. Others want to blame Apple and either its hardware or the emulation software, but MS does fine all by itself in making software with all sorts of issues. It was just one of many reasons I made the switch at home and work to Apple (and some Google products too) years ago.
And I'll agree with others who have noted some significant problems running Office on a windows PC. Others want to blame Apple and either its hardware or the emulation software, but MS does fine all by itself in making software with all sorts of issues. It was just one of many reasons I made the switch at home and work to Apple (and some Google products too) years ago.
I don't cut anyone slack, if it's a good product I'll buy it. I used buy Windows Mobile phones, then the iphone came out and I abandoned Microsoft for years. I used to have a windows tablet convertible, then the ipad came out and I abandoned Microsoft. I still use windows though as I find OSx a horribly unintuitive and lacking OS, that was Windows 7 and I won't disagree that Windows 8 is kind of bad too, but it's not so bad that a 5th grader couldn't figure out how to use it. Personally I won't be buying the surface pro, I am enjoying my thin as an ipad, same battery life and same priced windows 8 tablet now, in this generation.
Plus it's not like Apple doesn't get special treatment. Look at the ipad mini, how many people saying don't worry the next ipad mini will have a retina screen. Hell how about the ipad 3, retina made it run poorly and Apple got a pass to sell the ipad 3.1 with upgraded components 8 months later.
I think many that get confused with Microsoft fanboys, or Apple fanboys don't realize that most of us are eclectic and use what we need in business or pleasure, regardless of which company it is.
The MacBook Air is a superb laptop - well worth the money for someone looking for a laptop.
The Surface Pro is a so-so tablet with laptop internals - we'll see how it does but I think consumers are going to pass.
OSX has it's issues, but it's built on a significantly more stable backbone. I applaud MS for going in another direction entirely with 8. They made some bad decisions with gestures and hidden action points along with the 2 os system (that doesn't work seamlessly together) on a single device, but the real issue they face is the user base. Because MS OS's run the gamut from new users on new systems to those still using 95 (or worse) in large numbers, they are going to face a HUGE amount of resistance to upgrade, which then only hampers MS from moving forward, which becomes (has already become) an endless cycle where the user ultimately loses because they're not open to change.
As far as the iPad Mini, have you looked at one or used one? Sure, those who have been spoiled by the "retina" screen on the iPad 3/4 or iPhone may have issues with the lower resolution, but my own direct observations and use suggest it looks fantastic and works as slickly as all other iPads. Even zooming in on text looks perfectly fine.
It addresses a gap and fills a need, if sales are any measure of success (which of course they are). Will people complain next year that the Mini now comes with a better screen? Of course, but again, the Mini today works great, looks great. It can use the same apps and of course syncs with all other Apple products. It's not hampered by sub-par battery life or a handful of usable apps as is the Surface (which again, feels very much like RIM's launch of the Playbook).
My original point is that whenever people comment that "wait until xyz chip / xyz screen / xyz OS is released, it's going to kill the fill in the blank i product", that history suggests the exact opposite will happen or at worst, that very little change will occur.
Regardless, it will be interesting to see who is more right here. My bet is that MS will make some significant changes to both software and hardware, especially after their management changes and the lack of uptake they're seeing, which will then cause us to have yet another conversation about what is good/bad.
I agree with you on MS, they have a long road to travel with Windows 8. It has many flaws which hopefully will be improved, but that does nothing for what it is today when they need it most.
I have used the ipad mini, it doesn't bother me personally, I was only pointing out that Apple fans also do the same thing in excusing their company until the next hardware upgrade comes out. Thankfully I don't have to argue that point as the hardware that does everything I need is here in the cloverfield windows tablets, although I'm highly looking forward to the future iterations.
As for your last paragraph I certainly agree with it all, although I don't think anyone will be "right" or "wrong", simply one company may have more sales than another but I highly doubt we will see Microsoft, Apple or Google disappear. It will be interesting and refreshing to see what Sinofsky's departure means for Windows 8. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's all good, far from it. Windows 8 is confusing, half done, and not integrated well between the touch and desktop world. Windows RT is utter junk that is only confusing consumers and taking away potential customers. The surface Pro is incredible but won't be mass adopted like the ipad until they work out an all day battery, it will be a niche product relegated to the enthusiast and some enterprise customers. The shining light is the cloverfield tablets, the ones which match the ipad in every aspect while also having a true OS, but even that the OEM's royally screwed up by not having squat ready on windows launch day, not a single tablet.
Yeah Microsoft has a long road ahead of itself. You know what, competition is good and I love Apple products as well and part of the reason I want MS to succeed is to see what Apple comes up with to counter them.
Hopefully stays its course with doing things differently on the OS front. I don't want to see them copy Apple or Android and I don't think Apple really needs competitors to drive them to be creative. I think what Apple has figured out is how to take what isn't being done in the market and fill the gap. Sure, they'll take advantage with things like the mini, but they're looking at other areas in both personal and business life that have opportunities for upgrading the user experience.
That's where I think MS has been failing over the years. It's like they're building things for a very narrow market, such as IT managers, and although it is a market worth pursuing, it has been shown that the consumer can force change even into this formerly MS stronghold.
Apple is in major counter mode. They released the half baked mini in response to the fire and nexus 7, their OS is extremely stagnant compared to the competition, and they lost their true visionary who led them out of the dark ages last year. It will be interesting to see what they come up with, but IMO they are already behind by having iOS instead of OSx on a tablet by now.
Although Microsoft is making a huge mess of things I give them a lot of credit for having the balls to do what no one else is doing. Releasing a full OS on a tablet and having to redo their entire OS to fit it. I'm not saying they are doing a particularly good job of it, but they still have balls to turn on a dime like that.
Windows on a tablet should succeed wildly, but you and I both know that Microsoft is going to screw it up (they already have) and the OEM's are going to screw it up further.
Microsoft should have put an ATOM in the surface pro.
But, they were designing by committee, and decided they needed to spec-sheet-up-stage the ultrabook market, dumped a Core i5 in it. And tried to turn it into a high-end laptop replacement.
Intel has a low power CPU aimed at the ARM market that also provides the x86 instruction set for proper PC apps. Also likely faster than anything ARM has on offer, too.
Its not the i5.
It's the Atom.
This. I am running Windows 8 at work to get familiar (have been for months now, since the previews), as i'll be forced onto it to support win2012 servers.
It's a crock. And yes, I think it is due to no one having the balls to say, "hey, you know what? this product sucks, get it away from me and try something else!"
And i'm not saying that because it is different - i'm open to trying any new desktop environment and have run more different desktop UIs than I have digits (Amiga, windows 3.1 onwards, Geoworks, KDE since 1.0, Gnome since pre 1.0, GNUstep, fvwm, BeOS, etc)
I'm saying it because it is bad.
But, they were designing by committee, and decided they needed to spec-sheet-up-stage the ultrabook market, dumped a Core i5 in it. And tried to turn it into a high-end laptop replacement.
Intel has a low power CPU aimed at the ARM market that also provides the x86 instruction set for proper PC apps. Also likely faster than anything ARM has on offer, too.
Its not the i5.
It's the Atom.
This. I am running Windows 8 at work to get familiar (have been for months now, since the previews), as i'll be forced onto it to support win2012 servers.
It's a crock. And yes, I think it is due to no one having the balls to say, "hey, you know what? this product sucks, get it away from me and try something else!"
And i'm not saying that because it is different - i'm open to trying any new desktop environment and have run more different desktop UIs than I have digits (Amiga, windows 3.1 onwards, Geoworks, KDE since 1.0, Gnome since pre 1.0, GNUstep, fvwm, BeOS, etc)
I'm saying it because it is bad.
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I 1000% agree on releasing with the Atom processor, this is what allows MS to compete with the ipad pound for pound in EVERY category, with the exception of having a real OS. MS left this category to the OEMs, who fubared it by not having anything ready for release. I'm very surprised MS isn't releasing an Atom surface.
Windows 8 isn't that bad. If you look at the desktop side by itself there were many improvements under the hood, certainly enough to justify $40 upgrade. Metro does suck though, but you aren't really forced to use it and it will be the key to the future if MS can improve it.