tablets: Microsoft Surface Pro - WTF?

[L!veW!r3]

I didn't know that Surface's promising around 4.5hrs of battery life on their long awaited "Pro" tablet ;-)

They probably haven't had enough time to decently engineer their "tablet" (or tablet-like laptop) to last my day on the go. Sad Microsoft. Very sad you're still calling it a tablet.

[Michael Goff]

Repeating yourself doesn't make you right.

[spinedoc77]

Originally Posted by Michael Goff

Why would anyone want the pro to have an atom processor?

Do you want it to be horribly slow and laggy? Atom processors are horrible.

The cloverfield Atom processor isn't slow and laggy, I'm quite impressed with how windows runs on it.

[Switchback666]

Originally Posted by Beeplance

Three words dripping with sarcasm.

Sorry if it affects you or something. Just my personal preference. I'm just not accustomed to working with something I don't fully understand.

[Michael Goff]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

The cloverfield Atom processor isn't slow and laggy, I'm quite impressed with how windows runs on it.

The review that I saw of the Samsung Smart PC compared it to the Surface RT (which he reviewed before they did several performance enhancements). And isn't it Clover Trail? :P

[pesos]

[MuffCabbage]

Originally Posted by NT1440

Thats the RT, based on low power consuming ARM chips. Not an i5 that is in the Pro.

No ****... what are you trying to say?

[ReanimationN]

Originally Posted by pesos

Image

Now that is a good comparison. Hopefully the Surface Pro gets slightly better battery life than MS' estimates, as the RT version does.

[Beeplance]

Well, for me, I'm still not confident enough of Windows 8, so I think I'll pass. Think I'm better off with my Windows 7 PC.

[Switchback666]

[spinedoc77]

Originally Posted by Michael Goff

The review that I saw of the Samsung Smart PC compared it to the Surface RT (which he reviewed before they did several performance enhancements). And isn't it Clover Trail? :P

I'm not sure which review you read, but I've had the Samsung smart PC for about a month and can tell you it runs very smoothly with everything I threw at it. The Smart PC was buggy in some ways, but most of them turned out to be drivers, ie: sound driver, wifi driver, gpu driver, seems that Samsung is a VERY buggy company IMO. Out of the box the smart PC was very bad, it froze a lot, had some weird lag, among other things. With Samsungs initial firmware updates and driver updates most of that was gone. I'd be curious if the reviewer ever updated his smart pc.

With that said, don't expect miracles. Gaming is pretty much out, except for the Metro games which seemed to run OK but admittedly not great, hopefully that is GPU drivers/optimization. But most everything I threw at it ran smoothly, including Office, Photoshop, handwriting recognition, etc etc, even running these programs at the same time.

Cloverfield is a perfect entry for Microsoft to the consumer masses. It ain't perfect, but it's perfectly adequate and next year we get Haswell which is Intels new Atom cpu, this is the one where they finally truly change the architecture and it's supposed to be very nice. I have a feeling that a Haswell surface pro will be the solution.

FYI I returned my Samsung because it bricked on me, that is a statement on the company IMO, I try not to buy Samsung if I don't have to. But I did have a solid month with the smart PC to gauge how it ran. I have a cloverfield Lenovo pre-ordered which hopefully I should have in a couple of weeks.

[Michael Goff]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

I'm not sure which review you read, but I've had the Samsung smart PC for about a month and can tell you it runs very smoothly with everything I threw at it. The Smart PC was buggy in some ways, but most of them turned out to be drivers, ie: sound driver, wifi driver, gpu driver, seems that Samsung is a VERY buggy company IMO. Out of the box the smart PC was very bad, it froze a lot, had some weird lag, among other things. With Samsungs initial firmware updates and driver updates most of that was gone. I'd be curious if the reviewer ever updated his smart pc.

With that said, don't expect miracles. Gaming is pretty much out, except for the Metro games which seemed to run OK but admittedly not great, hopefully that is GPU drivers/optimization. But most everything I threw at it ran smoothly, including Office, Photoshop, handwriting recognition, etc etc, even running these programs at the same time.

Cloverfield is a perfect entry for Microsoft to the consumer masses. It ain't perfect, but it's perfectly adequate and next year we get Haswell which is Intels new Atom cpu, this is the one where they finally truly change the architecture and it's supposed to be very nice. I have a feeling that a Haswell surface pro will be the solution.

FYI I returned my Samsung because it bricked on me, that is a statement on the company IMO, I try not to buy Samsung if I don't have to. But I did have a solid month with the smart PC to gauge how it ran. I have a cloverfield Lenovo pre-ordered which hopefully I should have in a couple of weeks.

See, that makes sense.

Maybe he did the review prior to getting the updates.

[jmgregory1]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

I'm not sure which review you read, but I've had the Samsung smart PC for about a month and can tell you it runs very smoothly with everything I threw at it. The Smart PC was buggy in some ways, but most of them turned out to be drivers, ie: sound driver, wifi driver, gpu driver, seems that Samsung is a VERY buggy company IMO. Out of the box the smart PC was very bad, it froze a lot, had some weird lag, among other things. With Samsungs initial firmware updates and driver updates most of that was gone. I'd be curious if the reviewer ever updated his smart pc.

With that said, don't expect miracles. Gaming is pretty much out, except for the Metro games which seemed to run OK but admittedly not great, hopefully that is GPU drivers/optimization. But most everything I threw at it ran smoothly, including Office, Photoshop, handwriting recognition, etc etc, even running these programs at the same time.

Cloverfield is a perfect entry for Microsoft to the consumer masses. It ain't perfect, but it's perfectly adequate and next year we get Haswell which is Intels new Atom cpu, this is the one where they finally truly change the architecture and it's supposed to be very nice. I have a feeling that a Haswell surface pro will be the solution.

FYI I returned my Samsung because it bricked on me, that is a statement on the company IMO, I try not to buy Samsung if I don't have to. But I did have a solid month with the smart PC to gauge how it ran. I have a cloverfield Lenovo pre-ordered which hopefully I should have in a couple of weeks.

Spinedoc - say it isn't so! Do you know whether it was a hardware or software issue - or maybe both, that caused your Samsung to brick?

Your holding out hope for chip improvements that MAY help with battery life and other run issues may simply be praying to a god that isn't there. And even if something "fixes" some of the issues, I'm betting that the cluster that Windows 8 and the tablet/laptops on the market has been will have spoiled whatever interest in MS's tweener concept was there in the first place.

[spinedoc77]

Originally Posted by jmgregory1

Spinedoc - say it isn't so! Do you know whether it was a hardware or software issue - or maybe both, that caused your Samsung to brick?

Your holding out hope for chip improvements that MAY help with battery life and other run issues may simply be praying to a god that isn't there. And even if something "fixes" some of the issues, I'm betting that the cluster that Windows 8 and the tablet/laptops on the market has been will have spoiled whatever interest in MS's tweener concept was there in the first place.

I'm not holding out hope, that chip is here TODAY. This isn't an issue with the CPU, it's more of an issue with Samsung quality control and drivers. Besides the bricking (which I've had happen on a couple of iPhones anyhow) I'd easily compare the amount of glitches to any iOS device.

You keep saying that I'm holding out for something better, and that isn't the case. The hardware to compete and best the ipad is here today. Tomorrows hardware will further that margin and is something I am looking forward to.

[jmgregory1]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

I'm not holding out hope, that chip is here TODAY. This isn't an issue with the CPU, it's more of an issue with Samsung quality control and drivers. Besides the bricking (which I've had happen on a couple of iPhones anyhow) I'd easily compare the amount of glitches to any iOS device.

You keep saying that I'm holding out for something better, and that isn't the case. The hardware to compete and best the ipad is here today. Tomorrows hardware will further that margin and is something I am looking forward to.

I'm not so sure you should just be blaming Samsung for the bricking. If it's drivers causing issues, that's in a big part attributable to the OS. I've mentioned before that the idea of connecting all of the 425 million usb devices to a W8 tablet is going to be fraught with issues, just like doing the same can be problematic for a laptop or desktop.

Whether you're holding out hope or not, you're commenting on how great things will be when...and that is just a common thing that I have seen and heard over the past 5 years when comparing the upcoming iPad, iPhone, iPod or MacBook Air competition.

You may be completely satisfied with W8 in a tablet form, but you also have made comments about usability, so it's clear you're settling for something that isn't exactly right. I'm not saying that Apple is perfect, but MS's tablet/laptop convergence idea is not moving technology or even computing forward. It's simply a different form factor for what they've been trying to sell for the past decade - and it clearly hasn't worked.

Why don't you tell me how great the W8 tablets (from any PC manufacturer) work in portrait mode? You can answer saying that it works great, but you will be one of the few. The Surface and it's brethren are designed and built to be used in landscape mode, ala a laptop / desktop experience.

Portrait mode is what changed the PC market and Apple learned from their iPhone experience that people do want to hold a tablet in portrait mode. It's the more natural experience in HOLDING a tablet and interacting with it through a TOUCH interface. The only time landscape really makes sense on a 16:9 aspect ratio screen is when you're watching movies - or you need the space because you're trying to cram a desktop operating system onto a small form factor screen.

So I'll stand by my point - the whole W8 tablet market is simply a re-hashed thin and light laptop that can only kind of work without a keyboard.

[ChrisTX]

I genuinely love the form factor of the Surface RT, and Surface Pro however the OS just doesn't seem very user friendly. It's not as natural, and fluid as iOS. Best of luck to MS though.

[pesos]

Originally Posted by ChrisTX

I genuinely love the form factor of the Surface RT, and Surface Pro however the OS just doesn't seem very user friendly. It's not as natural, and fluid as iOS. Best of luck to MS though.

That's subjective of course... Last night my girlfriend asked to use the surface for the first time to fill out a job application online while we watched a movie. Took about 30 seconds for me to show her the mail app and how to swipe to switch between that and Word running on the desktop and IE. She got it immediately and was really happy with the entire experience (and she HATES tech and has trouble even navigating her iphone).

[spinedoc77]

Originally Posted by jmgregory1

I'm not so sure you should just be blaming Samsung for the bricking. If it's drivers causing issues, that's in a big part attributable to the OS. I've mentioned before that the idea of connecting all of the 425 million usb devices to a W8 tablet is going to be fraught with issues, just like doing the same can be problematic for a laptop or desktop.

Whether you're holding out hope or not, you're commenting on how great things will be when...and that is just a common thing that I have seen and heard over the past 5 years when comparing the upcoming iPad, iPhone, iPod or MacBook Air competition.

You may be completely satisfied with W8 in a tablet form, but you also have made comments about usability, so it's clear you're settling for something that isn't exactly right. I'm not saying that Apple is perfect, but MS's tablet/laptop convergence idea is not moving technology or even computing forward. It's simply a different form factor for what they've been trying to sell for the past decade - and it clearly hasn't worked.

Why don't you tell me how great the W8 tablets (from any PC manufacturer) work in portrait mode? You can answer saying that it works great, but you will be one of the few. The Surface and it's brethren are designed and built to be used in landscape mode, ala a laptop / desktop experience.

Portrait mode is what changed the PC market and Apple learned from their iPhone experience that people do want to hold a tablet in portrait mode. It's the more natural experience in HOLDING a tablet and interacting with it through a TOUCH interface. The only time landscape really makes sense on a 16:9 aspect ratio screen is when you're watching movies - or you need the space because you're trying to cram a desktop operating system onto a small form factor screen.

So I'll stand by my point - the whole W8 tablet market is simply a re-hashed thin and light laptop that can only kind of work without a keyboard.

Hardware bricks, it happens sometimes even to Apple devices. I'm not sure what your point is. As for the USB connectivity you can stick your head in the sand and not accept 425 million CHOICES because a few * might* have issues, but no thanks to that dinosaur land type of thinking. I'll happily enjoy the choice those 425 million options provide me.

I've made a TON of comments on usability of win 8 on tablets, this is hugely confusing as probably a third were in our discussions. I don't have an issue with it, I find it quite awesome most of the time and see that the market is headed that way when we are already seeing things like Office become these very nice desktop/tablet hybrid software packages. I've also commented on photoshop for example, the hybrid model allows one to get MUCH more done than on a dumb tablet. I never denied that this wasn't a repackaged windows computer, it's a bit baffling that you think that, I mean its insanely obvious isn't it? What I think was that the ipad is what was at best a lateral step but more likely a step backwards and the windows tablets finally return us to a point where we can step forwards. Once again the past decade did not work because the hardware and software was not there, things like battery life, form factor, fans, etc held windows back and rightfully so, it took Apple to show them how to do hardware.

I won't argue with you on portrait mode, usability is compromised, although interestingly enough it is a strong point in certain applications. Handwriting g recognition type apps like office be fit greatly from the very narrow portrait scheme, but overall I won't deny that it's that good for other functions like web surfing. Personally I rarely use portrait mode on the ipad myself, finding the natural way to web surf and do practically everything else is in landscape mode.

As for it being a rehashed in and light laptop, YES YES YES, that's the whole point and what makes it so strong. It will work as a FULL laptop, or as a tablet, that's a Huge amount of choice for the consumer. As I've asked before tell me something the ipad can do that a win8 tablet cannot do, and don't talk about the App Store because then you have to get into legacy apps, no I didn't think you would come up with anything. Conversely while a win8 tablet can do EVERYING an ipad can do I can also name off a long list of things it can do that the ipad cannot do.

Edit: typos, I'm on an ipad mini sigh

[MuffCabbage]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

Hardware bricks, it happens sometimes even to Apple devices. I'm not sure what your point is. As for the USB connectivity you can stick your head in the sand and not accept 425 million CHOICES because a few * might* have issues, but no thanks to that dinosaur land type of thinking. I'll happily enjoy the choice those 425 million options provide me.

I've made a TON of comments on usability of win 8 on tablets, this is hugely confusing as probably a third were in our discussions. I don't have an issue with it, I find it quite awesome most of the time and see that the market is headed that way when we are already seeing things like Office become these very nice desktop/tablet hybrid software packages. I've also commented on photoshop for example, the hybrid model allows one to get MUCH more done than on a dumb tablet. I never denied that this wasn't a repackaged windows computer, it's a bit baffling that you think that, I mean its insanely obvious isn't it? What I think was that the ipad is what was at best a lateral step but more likely a step backwards and the windows tablets finally return us to a point where we can step forwards. Once again the past decade did not work because the hardware and software was not there, things like battery life, form factor, fans, etc held windows back and rightfully so, it took Apple to show them how to do hardware.

I won't argue with you on portrait mode, usability is compromised, although interestingly enough it is a strong point in certain applications. Handwriting g recognition type apps like office be fit greatly from the very narrow portrait scheme, but overall I won't deny that it's that good for other functions like web surfing. Personally I rarely use portrait mode on the ipad myself, finding the natural way to web surf and do practically everything else is in landscape mode.

As for it being a rehashed in and light laptop, YES YES YES, that's the whole point and what makes it so strong. It will work as a FULL laptop, or as a tablet, that's a Huge amount of choice for the consumer. As I've asked before tell me something the ipad can do that a win8 tablet cannot do, and don't talk about the App Store because then you have to get into legacy apps, no I didn't think you would come up with anything. Conversely while a win8 tablet can do EVERYING an ipad can do I can also name off a long list of things it can do that the ipad cannot do.

Edit: typos, I'm on an ipad mini sigh

We got the Samsung 500T and its amazing how long the battery life is for x86 (Longer than I would expect from ARM). I think the tablet part is a bit wide at 11.6 inches and 16:9 but its a good in between device with the keyboard dock.

The issue with it is that there is a problem with their drivers/hardware and we'll be getting a replacement from the MSFT Store because its totaled 8 lock ups in 2 weeks even after updating drivers/Windows 8, and doing a full recovery of Windows 8.

[jmgregory1]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

Hardware bricks, it happens sometimes even to Apple devices. I'm not sure what your point is. As for the USB connectivity you can stick your head in the sand and not accept 425 million CHOICES because a few * might* have issues, but no thanks to that dinosaur land type of thinking. I'll happily enjoy the choice those 425 million options provide me.

I've made a TON of comments on usability of win 8 on tablets, this is hugely confusing as probably a third were in our discussions. I don't have an issue with it, I find it quite awesome most of the time and see that the market is headed that way when we are already seeing things like Office become these very nice desktop/tablet hybrid software packages. I've also commented on photoshop for example, the hybrid model allows one to get MUCH more done than on a dumb tablet. I never denied that this wasn't a repackaged windows computer, it's a bit baffling that you think that, I mean its insanely obvious isn't it? What I think was that the ipad is what was at best a lateral step but more likely a step backwards and the windows tablets finally return us to a point where we can step forwards. Once again the past decade did not work because the hardware and software was not there, things like battery life, form factor, fans, etc held windows back and rightfully so, it took Apple to show them how to do hardware.

I won't argue with you on portrait mode, usability is compromised, although interestingly enough it is a strong point in certain applications. Handwriting g recognition type apps like office be fit greatly from the very narrow portrait scheme, but overall I won't deny that it's that good for other functions like web surfing. Personally I rarely use portrait mode on the ipad myself, finding the natural way to web surf and do practically everything else is in landscape mode.

As for it being a rehashed in and light laptop, YES YES YES, that's the whole point and what makes it so strong. It will work as a FULL laptop, or as a tablet, that's a Huge amount of choice for the consumer. As I've asked before tell me something the ipad can do that a win8 tablet cannot do, and don't talk about the App Store because then you have to get into legacy apps, no I didn't think you would come up with anything. Conversely while a win8 tablet can do EVERYING an ipad can do I can also name off a long list of things it can do that the ipad cannot do.

Edit: typos, I'm on an ipad mini sigh

Look, the point I've made over and over again has been that your dual purpose laptop sorta tablet is really just a laptop with minimal functioning as a touch based tablet.

And I've said that Photoshop is probably the only realistic use of a touch based legacy program that could completely ditch a keyboard, but I've worked with a lot of designers and they're not going to do any kind of serious work on a 10" tablet, correcting images or doing any significant photo retouching or creative work. Not to mention, when you're talking photo work, it's hugely taxing to the gpu and you're just not going to have the firepower needed in a W8 tablet to do this. I call it a red herring on your part.

You must have one heck of a giant usb hub to use all 425 million devices, including the 100 million mice and 100 million keyboards you have.

So, the W8 laptops, I mean tablets..., can run legacy programs using mouse and keyboard. That makes them a laptop. What programs will actually be usable with any kind of touch interface? Please explain to me how you can take a program written to be driven by keyboard and mouse and make it workable holding the tablet and inputting using your fingers. It's not possible, is it. Not in any way that makes sense at least. That's MS's bs - selling you on something that isn't even a usable attribute.

And because they've tried to make sure one use, the laptop mode, works they've then made compromises on having the tablet mode work optimally. Right? I'm not blowing smoke that they've designed around using this tablet mostly in landscape mode, even to the point (in MS's models at least) of using sub-pixels that can only increase perceived font sharpness in landscape mode, not portrait mode. Is that not a compromise?

And the need for two different versions of IE? And two versions that don't communicate together? Do you think they did that to give you more for the money?

You want and you seem to need a thin and light laptop that you can disconnect the keyboard from (at times and then you need to keep that somewhere, which of course is another compromise, but I digress) and that's great. I'm glad you can run legacy programs, since that really seems to be the only thing you want to do.

[Night Spring]

Originally Posted by spinedoc77

As for it being a rehashed in and light laptop, YES YES YES, that's the whole point and what makes it so strong. It will work as a FULL laptop, or as a tablet, that's a Huge amount of choice for the consumer. As I've asked before tell me something the ipad can do that a win8 tablet cannot do, and don't talk about the App Store because then you have to get into legacy apps, no I didn't think you would come up with anything. Conversely while a win8 tablet can do EVERYING an ipad can do I can also name off a long list of things it can do that the ipad cannot do.

Edit: typos, I'm on an ipad mini sigh

A device that can be both full laptop and a tablet may be an ideal, but what Apple did was prove that a tablet device doesn't need to do everything that a laptop can do in order to have a place in our lives.

And if Win8 devices are really fully functional TODAY, why are you typing this on an iPad mini? If laptop/tablet hybrids are as great as you are saying they are, wouldn't you be using a hybrid instead of a mini?

And I imagine you'll probably say something about how, in certain circumstances, the mini's size and portability makes it a more convenient device than the hybrids, which I think can't get as small as a mini, because if they do they'd be too small to function as a laptop. In which case, we are back to the consumer carrying two devices -- but now it's a hybrid + mini, whereas before it was laptop + full-size iPad. Overall reduction in size and weight, but still carrying two devices.

And I think that's how it will be in the foreseeable future. Most of us will keep walking around with three devices -- smartphone, tablet, and a notebook. Win8 might turn the notebook into a laptop/tablet hybrid, and for some of us the tablet might be an e-ink reader. But the "need" for a middle device between the laptop and smartphone isn't going away -- it's the device we relax with, and do light productivity tasks with. And full desktop OS is overkill for such a device.

[Zwhaler]

Originally Posted by Night Spring

A device that can be both full laptop and a tablet may be an ideal, but what Apple did was prove that a tablet device doesn't need to do everything that a laptop can do in order to have a place in our lives.

FWIW, people will buy anything that Apple sells.

I personally don't want 3 devices. I remember when Apple introduced the iPad and was talking about how people weren't looking for a smartphone that can do more, but rather a third device in between it and their laptop. I think the direction of the industry is going toward more tablet like phones, actually. After owning the Note 2 for some time I've stopped using the iPad. If they plan on releasing better and better variants of these kind of phablet devices (rumored 6" 1080p Note 3) I would gladly use that over an iPad because the device gets more use overall due to it being a phone, is more portable and therefore is with you way more of the time, and while tablets will continue to be sold, I think more people would rather have a computer for work, and then their communication device like a smartphone, or better yet a phone/tablet, for everything else.

[Night Spring]

Originally Posted by Zwhaler

FWIW, people will buy anything that Apple sells.

I personally don't want 3 devices. I remember when Apple introduced the iPad and was talking about how people weren't looking for a smartphone that can do more, but rather a third device in between it and their laptop. I think the direction of the industry is going toward more tablet like phones, actually. After owning the Note 2 for some time I've stopped using the iPad. If they plan on releasing better and better variants of these kind of phablet devices (rumored 6" 1080p Note 3) I would gladly use that over an iPad because the device gets more use overall due to it being a phone, is more portable and therefore is with you way more of the time, and while tablets will continue to be sold, I think more people would rather have a computer for work, and then their communication device like a smartphone, or better yet a phone/tablet, for everything else.

Ah, the phablet. I'd forgotten about those -- though you are right, since I got the mini, I've occasionary thought that maybe I could ditch my iPhone and just use the mini. I do think it's great that there are now many different sized tablets (I tend to think of phablets as tablets with phone capability), and that people have choices about what combination of devices works for them. If the phablet + computer works for you, then great. Personally, despite the temptation to ditch an extra device somewhere, I think I'd always need one device that fits in my pocket, and for me that is > 4.5". I don't have any clothes with big enough pocket for a 5" device, it won't fit even in my biggest overcoat.

But the point I was trying to make in my previous post was that Win8 hybrid devices can't completely replace a tablet. And while I forgot about phablets while writing that post, now that you've reminded me of them, I'd say they are small size tablets, and they replace smartphones. So it's not really relevant to my main argument regarding Win8 hybrids.

As for people buying anything Apple sells, I disagree. There is certainly a bit of a halo effect, where once you are pleased with an Apple product, you are likely to try another. But then, if the second product doesn't perform to expectations, then you wouldn't buy a third. So if people keep coming back for more, it's because each new Apple product they buy keeps performing well.

[MuffCabbage]

Lots of the naysayers really are just trying to fit the dual-device paradigm into their Appleistic views which it is not.

[Zwhaler]

I'll rephrase that a little bit, there are some people that will buy anything that Apple sells. That is a fact.