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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:06 AM   #301
hayesk
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Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
Much of the problem is that Apple IOS is brain-dead when it comes to handling screen dimensions. Only 2X is supported.

That means overkill - since the only possibility is 2048x1536 due to the primitive graphics system.

The definition of "retina" could be met by a display with fewer pixels - say 1536x1152 - which would be cheaper and less demanding on the hardware.
I agree, though I wouldn't go as far as to say it's "primitive"? Nothing at at all (e.g. Android, BB) is primitive.

Resolution independence means forcing vector graphics on developers. Which is not a bad idea, but it's going to take a while to do it and not everyone will be on board. Makers of Opacity and PaintCode would be happy, at any rate.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:28 AM   #302
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huh??? Did you listen to the launch of Ipad 3 and Apple rational of picking 2048x1536 resolution? Apple is trying to protect the app developers by picking a resolution that is ultra-easy for app to upgrade to the new resolution. That is the reason why Apple has quality apps on Ipad. Agree to the decision or not, it is not brain dead. Remember, however one cut it, Apple still have over 50% and making almost all the money in the tablet space. it is pretty good for a brain dead decision. I wonder who is brain dead here..
Totally missed the point. Aiden is talking about Apple adding yet another screen resolution to the mix. After everyone lambasts Google for fragmentation Apple would have to do the same thing to make the iPad mini with a Retina display.

Apple's quality apps would be reduced to the level of an iPhone app running in 2X mode (terrible time period for many of us.)

Market share isn't a good thing to bring up when talking about superior operating systems. iOS is stale and dated no question, and saying that it sells more regardless is very reminiscent of a certain OS developer from Redmond.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:04 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
Totally missed the point. Aiden is talking about Apple adding yet another screen resolution to the mix. After everyone lambasts Google for fragmentation Apple would have to do the same thing to make the iPad mini with a Retina display.

Apple's quality apps would be reduced to the level of an iPhone app running in 2X mode (terrible time period for many of us.)

Market share isn't a good thing to bring up when talking about superior operating systems. iOS is stale and dated no question, and saying that it sells more regardless is very reminiscent of a certain OS developer from Redmond.
No, I did not miss the point. All I am saying is that Apple already took the position that they will protect the App development and will only have 2 resolution for IPad.. Could they change their mind? certainly. But they will have to come up with an answer of how to move the app developers into updating their apps for the 3r resoluiton, otherwise, they can't charge premium for Ipad at all. Google ecosystem has endure the same problem since mobile device start and there is no solution. I am not optimistic that Apple will come up with any solution along that line. So it is easier for Apple to push the hardware supplier to come up with a screen that is 2048x1536 but still fit the power requirement of a small device. If IGZO from Sharp does not fit the bill, Apple will wait instead of introducing a third resolution.

I think you are referring Window..You conveniently forget that Window dominate the desktop and laptop device since the beginning of PC and still dominate laptop and desktop this day. Desktop and laptop are in decline but Microsoft still dominate the niche. When you consider that Nexus 7 and Android Fire HD are both money loser, it is hard to argue that Android tablet market is healthy. Manufacturer can buy market share for a period of time but not indefinitely. And didn't we have another rumor that Apple is increasing the production of Ipad mini to about 12m a quarter range? how is a device with inferior spec and dated OS that is priced higher than Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD sell so many of it?
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:54 PM   #304
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While, I wouldn't put the lack of a Retina Display as a complaint, it certainly would be on my Wish List for the future. For those who haven't seen one in person, go see them. The resolution is actually very nice. It's a higher PPI than the original iPad and that was very good. I almost think the additional resolution is wasted on most people as I don't think it's as night-and-day as most people would like to think it is. I've owned the first 3 iPads and iPad 2 looked just fine up against the 3rd one. It wasn't quite as good but it still quite nice.

That said, I was just happy Apple entered this smaller market with the best tablet at this size. I think it's ability to run all of the software on the Apple Appstore is a major deciding factor for millions upon millions of already happy Apple iPad/iPhone users who might be considering a tablet or another smaller tablet. The build quality makes it very worth the additional money in my opinion. I want a device that not only works but one that is just a joy to hold and use.

This new smaller Apple device is just such a device. One could debate Android and iOS from now on, but it's the same lame argument that people had about Sega Genesis and SuperNES; XBox360 and PS3; Apple OS and Windows... it's an argument that goes nowhere generally. In the end, I'm glad to pay a little more and keep the unit a lot longer than I might otherwise do for Apple's competition. If you buy Android and like that ecosystem, then all the best. I like Apple. If you're having fun, you're having fun.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:13 PM   #305
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The lack of a retina display never bothered me, but the slower A4 processor was a deal-breaker for me.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:24 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
No, I did not miss the point. All I am saying is that Apple already took the position that they will protect the App development and will only have 2 resolution for IPad.. Could they change their mind? certainly. But they will have to come up with an answer of how to move the app developers into updating their apps for the 3r resoluiton, otherwise, they can't charge premium for Ipad at all. Google ecosystem has endure the same problem since mobile device start and there is no solution. I am not optimistic that Apple will come up with any solution along that line. So it is easier for Apple to push the hardware supplier to come up with a screen that is 2048x1536 but still fit the power requirement of a small device. If IGZO from Sharp does not fit the bill, Apple will wait instead of introducing a third resolution.

I think you are referring Window..You conveniently forget that Window dominate the desktop and laptop device since the beginning of PC and still dominate laptop and desktop this day. Desktop and laptop are in decline but Microsoft still dominate the niche. When you consider that Nexus 7 and Android Fire HD are both money loser, it is hard to argue that Android tablet market is healthy. Manufacturer can buy market share for a period of time but not indefinitely. And didn't we have another rumor that Apple is increasing the production of Ipad mini to about 12m a quarter range? how is a device with inferior spec and dated OS that is priced higher than Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD sell so many of it?
I agree with everything you just said, but Aiden's point was that iOS can't handle changes in resolution and is resolution dependent. Unlike our rMBPs that can change to fit more or less content on the screen.

It's the OS that's Apple's biggest problem as it stands.

Android tablet market is awful not because of the OS, on the contrary, it's the hardware IMHO. To dispute that claim slightly I will point out that both Samsung and Amazon had record sales of the GSIII and Fire HD the day after the iPhone 5 and iPad mini where launched.

That's all moot though, you can't compare an eReader that does some Android apps well to a tablet masquerading as an overpriced eReader.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 02:29 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Giganova View Post
The lack of a retina display never bothered me, but the slower A4 processor was a deal-breaker for me.
Wrong, the iPad Mini uses an A5 processor, dual core, second gen 32nm type.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 02:44 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post

Android tablet market is awful not because of the OS, on the contrary, it's the hardware IMHO. To dispute that claim slightly I will point out that both Samsung and Amazon had record sales of the GSIII and Fire HD the day after the iPhone 5 and iPad mini where launched.
Samsung doesn't announce direct ship to consumers so I'm doubting that info. Amazon announced record sales and that's understandable because the Apple rumor mill was talking about $199 iPad mini. When people that needed to budget no more than $250 for a table saw $329 they made their decision. Apple doesn't want to be all things to all people.

As for screen resolutions. There's nothing primitive about iOS display system. Apple's tried to look at Resolution Independent options and for whatever reason they just didn't deliver. It's clear that Apple's moving away from Springs and Struts to Auto Layout. Once developers get used to AL and how to effectively use Constraints it'll give Apple the freedom to ship more varied display resolutions without causing developers much pain.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 04:27 PM   #309
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I still cannot justify the price. Even Toms Hardware agrees with me that it's 65% more expensive than it's main competitor which Apple is fighting against in this 7 inch market.

I'll stick with my iPad 3rd Gen for now but at the decreasing rate of anything new really coming from Apple the competition is catching and making the playing field closer each year.

Looking forward to what 2013 will bring
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 04:44 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
I agree with everything you just said, but Aiden's point was that iOS can't handle changes in resolution and is resolution dependent. Unlike our rMBPs that can change to fit more or less content on the screen.

It's the OS that's Apple's biggest problem as it stands.

Android tablet market is awful not because of the OS, on the contrary, it's the hardware IMHO. To dispute that claim slightly I will point out that both Samsung and Amazon had record sales of the GSIII and Fire HD the day after the iPhone 5 and iPad mini where launched.

That's all moot though, you can't compare an eReader that does some Android apps well to a tablet masquerading as an overpriced eReader.
Huh? Nexus 7 sold about 2.3M unit in the first 3 months. Ipad mini sold about the same in the first weekend. And that is a tablet that cost 200 vs a tablet that cost 329 to start.. And the hardware for Nexus 7 is ahead of Ipad mini. How does the Nexus 7 hardware suck compare to Ipad mini? The only advantage Ipad mini has is the 270,000 Apps from Ipad ecosystems. If the sales number can't convince you that Apple advantage is in the software and their decision to stuck with two resolution instead of multiple resolution that end up with sucky app experience, I guess nothing will.. May be you can explain better why Ipad mini is selling so well now?

S3 has NFC, larger screen etc. etc... How does it's hardware suck compare to Iphone 5? S3 sold about 20m unit in the first 3 month and looks to sell an additional 10m unit in 4Q according to samsung. And Iphone 5 look to sell at least 40M unit in the first 3 months... Can you explain how Iphone 5 win the hardware race with S3/Note 2?

And when you compare the sales, make sure you include the pricing information in the equation. When a manufacturer price the device lower, they should sell more. Why did Google price Nexus 10 the same price point as Ipad 4? The spec look very comparable and may be ahead on the processor compare to Ipad 4...
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 06:03 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
As for screen resolutions. There's nothing primitive about iOS display system. Apple's tried to look at Resolution Independent options and for whatever reason they just didn't deliver. It's clear that Apple's moving away from Springs and Struts to Auto Layout. Once developers get used to AL and how to effectively use Constraints it'll give Apple the freedom to ship more varied display resolutions without causing developers much pain.
This I can agree with, but I'd still have to point out those issues that Apple has yet to really address as reason for there not being a Retina iPad Mini anytime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
....
Again, off the point, I never wanted to get into a sales battle which no one would ever gain any ground on since as nuckinfutz has mentioned, Samsung and Amazon have weird/unreported sales numbers. Apple does as well, my time at retail showed me that Apple counts repairs as units moved, so discussing sales is moot.

Now, the topic really rests in whether or not Apple will release a Retina iPad Mini, to which I'd say no, unless the tech becomes so superfluous that is just has to be included, or the demands on running such a high resolution on such a tiny device become small.

I'd rather have a Mini with a 10 hour battery that didn't get hot in hand or take hours to charge with a non Retina display.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:04 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
Now, the topic really rests in whether or not Apple will release a Retina iPad Mini, to which I'd say no, unless the tech becomes so superfluous that is just has to be included, or the demands on running such a high resolution on such a tiny device become small.

I'd rather have a Mini with a 10 hour battery that didn't get hot in hand or take hours to charge with a non Retina display.
And I am taking the position that we will see an Ipad mini in 2013. Ipad mini using the a-si technology used in Ipad 3 and Ipad 4 would have weight 1lb to 1.1lb (Ipad3/4 weight about 1.44 lbs) which is too heavy for a small device like Ipad mini.

I believe IGZO display from Sharp will be able to bring the weight down to 0.75 to 0.8lb with reduce backlit and battery size and we will have an Ipad mini with retina.. Sharp has a demo that IGZO display save 25% to 75% power at CEA depending on resolution and size. The key is whether Sharp can produce the panel at the resolution and what will the price be in 2013.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4sFCLikvyI
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:10 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
And I am taking the position that we will see an Ipad mini in 2013. Ipad mini using the a-si technology used in Ipad 3 and Ipad 4 would have weight 1lb to 1.1lb (Ipad3/4 weight about 1.44 lbs) which is too heavy for a small device like Ipad mini.

I believe IGZO display from Sharp will be able to bring the weight down to 0.75 to 0.8lb with reduce backlit and battery size and we will have an Ipad mini with retina.. Sharp has a demo that IGZO display save 25% to 75% power at CEA depending on resolution and size. The key is whether Sharp can produce the panel at the resolution and what will the price be in 2013.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4sFCLikvyI
Good points, the price should be the same as it is now. Apple is very good at releasing new products at the same price points.

Now the resolution that's needed will bring us back an OS issue. One would hope that it's the same as the iPad 3 and 4 or devs will have to deal with yet another iOS resolution. Or Apple can take a book from Android and have the OS help with UI configurations.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:30 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
huh??? Did you listen to the launch of Ipad 3 and Apple rational of picking 2048x1536 resolution?
Yes, the rationalization was to make it easy for the developers - <shout>because the brain-dead OS can't scale the UI</shout>!

Reminds me of a wonderful exchange from the movie The Big Chill.

Quote:
Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.

Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.

Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
Resolution independence means forcing vector graphics on developers. Which is not a bad idea, but it's going to take a while to do it and not everyone will be on board. Makers of Opacity and PaintCode would be happy, at any rate.
Vector graphics would be useful for graphical elements. An alternative that would do a good job most of the time is to use high resolution bitmap graphics, and let the OS downscale the image.

For example, when you look at your 10 mpixel to 30 mpixel photograph on your tablet - it looks great, even though it's been massively downscaled.

And don't complain that "it's too slow to rescale". The installer could do a one-time conversion on graphical elements, so that the run-time cost is zero.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:08 PM   #315
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I think we all know the next iPad Mini will have a Retina display..
Unfortunately you got some fanboys on this forum saying the ipad mini is fine without retina and that there is no need for it.

I just wish apple would hurry with retina ipad mini already.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:31 PM   #316
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Yes, the rationalization was to make it easy for the developers - <shout>because the brain-dead OS can't scale the UI</shout>!

Reminds me of a wonderful exchange from the movie The Big Chill.





Vector graphics would be useful for graphical elements. An alternative that would do a good job most of the time is to use high resolution bitmap graphics, and let the OS downscale the image.

For example, when you look at your 10 mpixel to 30 mpixel photograph on your tablet - it looks great, even though it's been massively downscaled.

And don't complain that "it's too slow to rescale". The installer could do a one-time conversion on graphical elements, so that the run-time cost is zero.
heh heh, all I can say is that this is the position Apple is taking. If you think they are brain dead and it is a easy problem to fix, you certainly has the right to think so. But they are the guys/gals that make hundred of thousand dollar a year in salary and bonus making this kind of decision. If you think you know better.. good for you and hopefully you make more money than those moron 8-). Why not show the Google guy how to solve their app problem? That got to be a multiple billions dollars business opportunity to make Android App as good as IOS tablet apps. I am rooting for you 8-).
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:42 PM   #317
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heh heh, all I can say is that this is the position Apple is taking.
Apple, and the late great fearless leader, would say anything (no matter how rediculous) to make you buy whatever the "latest thing" was.

Simply realize that it is "Apple's position", and not necessarily "the truth".
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 01:37 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
Apple, and the late great fearless leader, would say anything (no matter how rediculous) to make you buy whatever the "latest thing" was.

Simply realize that it is "Apple's position", and not necessarily "the truth".
heh heh, there must be some kind of mental block on understanding this "app need to support different display" problem. Let's say Apple is lying, there is really a simple solution out there. Why couldn't Google solve it?

Google device are notorious of having different display size and different resolution. It makes building the hardware easy. The manufacturer just pick the latest technology that fit the design criteria and we have the latest device. But Android device are also notorious of having problem in consistent app experience with app image and layout work great in some device but not other. I googled "Android app different resolution" and here come a bunch of discussion on how to support different resolution on Android device. If the comment from Android developer couldn't explain why having too many resolution and size combination is bad for developers, I guess nothing will...

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3...nt-resolutions

Quote:
You want an image that will fill the entire screen? There are over 50 supported android phones, each with a different resolution. You can't expect to create an image of the exact size of each phone. Instead, you'll probably need to come up with a few different versions and then allow it to stretch to fill the full screen.

hdpi, ldpi, mdpi refers the density of pixels on the screen, not the screen size. Thus, one mdpi screen might be 320x480 while another might be 480x854.

Supporting multiple screens has lots of good information dealing with the different screen sizes and densities. Icon design has specific suggestions for pixels sizes for different icons at the different screen densities.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 08:04 AM   #319
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Gimme retina!!!!!
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:07 AM   #320
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Obviously, it is why they made the iPad Mini have a crappy screen. So they say, it's iPad Mini, and a heap of people buy it, but some not happy with the screen. And then they bring out a new iPad Mini with Retina display and low specs, and because people with the iPad Mini 1 didn't like the screen, Apple sell more of the sequel and can sell it for $50 - $100 more. And then because iPad Mini with Retina display wasn't very fast or had low specs they can repeat it and get more money. It is amazing marketing and very smart, it is Apple's way, they have done it for a while, just none of their users noticed it.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:29 PM   #321
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Apple will introduce a Retina display for the 7 inch device. They aim to be the leading edge supplier.

Whether it happens in early or late 2013 they will have introduce such a product.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 07:48 PM   #322
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Obviously, it is why they made the iPad Mini have a crappy screen. So they say, it's iPad Mini, and a heap of people buy it, but some not happy with the screen. And then they bring out a new iPad Mini with Retina display and low specs, and because people with the iPad Mini 1 didn't like the screen, Apple sell more of the sequel and can sell it for $50 - $100 more. And then because iPad Mini with Retina display wasn't very fast or had low specs they can repeat it and get more money. It is amazing marketing and very smart, it is Apple's way, they have done it for a while, just none of their users noticed it.
Are you for real??? A retina display will necessitate at the very least the specs you have in the iPhone 5 (A6) or maybe even an A7. In other words, you'll get a serious boost in performance when you get a retina iPad mini next year. The next iPad mini will be the real deal.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 02:35 PM   #323
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It better be retina with the latest CPU and GPU or i'm not gonna be getting a ~7" tablet.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 04:09 PM   #324
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http://www.businessinsider.com/next-ipad-march-2012-12
RUMOR: A Thinner, Lighter Version Of The Big iPad Could Be Coming As Soon As March

Business Apple could update the big iPad as soon as March, according to Japanese site Macotakara. Macotakara is citing an "inside source." As with any Apple rumor site Macotakara has a mixed record, so we wouldn't etch this report in stone. It's something interesting to keep in mind, especially if other reports start leaking out to confirm it.


Maybe it will come along with an iPad Mini Retina


http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/4879...-retina-ipad-5
http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipad-iphon...newsid=3416483
Apple working on iPad mini with Retina display and lighter iPad 5

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Old Dec 25, 2012, 01:48 AM   #325
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Future iPad-mini's Resolution = iPad Resolution. Pixel Density = iPhone Pixel Density

According to this news/rumor ...

Display area of the iPad-mini = 29.6 square inches.
Current Resolution = 1024 x 768 = 786432 total number of pixels
Pixel Density = (Total Number of Pixels/Display Area)^0.5
Pixel Density = (1024*768/29.6)^0.5 = 162.99 ≈ 163 pixels per inch.

Doubling the Resolution (converting to Retina):

iPad-mini with Retina Display area = 29.6 square inches.
Resolution = 2048 x 1536 = 3145728 pixels
Pixel Density = (2048 x 1536/29.6)^0.5 = 325.99 ≈ 326 pixels per inch.

Same pixel density as iPhone. Seems likely to be released.

Same resolution as current iPad. Cannibalizing its own newer iPad? Not happening bro ...

... But they have done this with the Macbook Pro vs Macbook Pro with Retina Display. Over there exists a significant price gap too ... Not here though. $329 for iPad-mini will be less than $499 and you get a lighter, thinner, more portable than current iPad product with same battery, power and resolution? Unlikely. People would then only buy iPad-mini. The non-mini iPad would have to be extremely good to demand that much of a market share.

Seems very difficult to say though.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
Vector graphics would be useful for graphical elements. An alternative that would do a good job most of the time is to use high resolution bitmap graphics, and let the OS downscale the image.
Don't think that can happen, though it seems like a good idea. At the same time, I can't imagine why wouldn't someone come up with vector images ...
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