The overly devoted Apple customer is hurting Apple...

[TheMTtakeover]

Originally Posted by onthecouchagain

I've been saying this for ages on this board. Ages.

Intellectual honesty goes a long way. Those types of fans think they're helping but don't realize they're actually doing disservice to apple. But it's not just them either. Apple themselves need to adopt a more humbling philosophy. I think we've seen some humility in Cook be it his apology letter letter for maps or his quiet admission that iOS is in need of new direction by firing forestall.

Fans - real fans - should be the first to speak honestly about shortcomings.

I'm glad some people on this board, even in the iphone forums, are starting to.

I sit by and watch you post your same thoughts on android over and over again; constantly saying "I've been saying that forever" and repeatedly posting links to your other threads and its annoying. No lie, but to sit there and say that fans who say they enjoy 3.5 inch screens and say they can live without LTE need to start being honest!? How the hell do you know if someone likes their screen or not? Please tell me mighty android warrior who constantly wants to say how iOS is nothing compared to android tell me how you can know that people over the internet are lying to themselves and to apple!?!?!

Could it be possible that they are just happy with 3G speeds and don't need a big screen on their phone because for most tasks they use a computer?

^That is a serious question.

[onthecouchagain]

Originally Posted by TheMTtakeover

I sit by and watch you post your same thoughts on android over and over again; constantly saying "I've been saying that forever" and repeatedly posting links to your other threads and its annoying. No lie, but to sit there and say that fans who say they enjoy 3.5 inch screens and say they can live without LTE need to start being honest!? How the hell do you know if someone likes their screen or not? Please tell me mighty android warrior who constantly wants to say how iOS is nothing compared to android tell me how you can know that people over the internet are lying to themselves and to apple!?!?!

Could it be possible that they are just happy with 3G speeds and don't need a big screen on their phone because for most tasks they use a computer?

^That is a serious question.

Seriously, there's nothing in your post that is accurate. A post like this can only be created from utter misunderstanding of the points I make.

Relax, and try it again. Good luck.

[Saturn1217]

I don't want to bash anyone's preferred operating system. Just wondered what other people are thinking for Apple's next advancement on software/hardware.

People are bashing the file system but I think there could be a lot of use in a dumbed down file system for just user files. Kind of like "All my files" on a mac. Just organized into pictures, docs, other with an option to make "collections" if they didn't want to call them folders. Just some way for files to be stored in one place where any app could access them. Android could also benefit from a easy user accessible portion of the file system. Right now with android you either get nothing except downloads or you get everything which I agree it completely unnecessary for the average user.

Another thing that would be nice in iOS is a real concept of settings in an app. I know not everyone needs to be a tweaker of everything but if I could just change the default font size in Safari (and no reader doesn't count) it would help me personally sooo much and I'm sure many others who may be average users but perhaps have poor eyesight?

Another idea is perhaps they could make the home botton capacitive while preserving its button function as well. Aka you can still click a physical button to wake the device (something I always loved with my ipod touch) but you can just touch the botton when you are in the middle of using the phone which is a much easier transition from touching screen elements and also makes double taps and tap holds much easier. And it could be configurable (I know again...) so people who hate capacitive buttons don't have to use it.

IMHO I think it would be a mistake for Apple to just follow Android and increase screen size again or all of a sudden make a dirt cheap phone. I don't always agree with them but Apple has smart people. They should be able to come up with something new (that won't piss everyone off).

[matttye]

Originally Posted by onthecouchagain

You've decided to zone in on a particular feature that is difficult to implement. File management is no easy task, I agree.

But that's no excuse for many of the other features that are missing from iOS. You also point to one example where someone really doesn't know how to use a smartphone. Fair, but that's again, hardly the reason why features should be missing. As others have said in this thread... the option to be able to use it counts for something. Those who know how to use it, will use it. Those who don't know (or don't need it) won't. Everyone is happy. You are arguing against this.

And again... that is the challenge that Apple and its designers/programmers face (whom are the best in the world, so says Apple). How to make these tasks streamlined.

Asking for a solution is better than pretending no one wants it, or that it'll have some catastrophic consequence if Apple implements them.

The fine tuning of what constitutes "good enough" for iOS is remarkable in itself, and remarkably linked to Apple's decisions. I say again, what an amazing and happy coincidence.

----------

Mattye, you're defending tooth and nail for Apple not to do some of the things being asked for.

Try to pretend that Android didn't exist. Even without Android offering these additional features, we should all still be encouraging Apple to add features, and criticizing them for not.

It's gotten to a point where it's not really even an Android vs. iOS debate. This is an "I'd like to be able to do X on iOS, but can't" conversation.

I cannot stress this enough: we are on Apple's side.

Ill refer you to post #156, where I explained that I'm not against new features being added - I just don't think Apple will add some of the things people are asking for when simplicity is their main concern.

This is what Steve Jobs said about file systems:

"In every user interface study we’ve ever done […], [we found] it’s pretty easy to learn how to use these things ‘til you hit the file system and then the learning curve goes vertical. So you ask yourself, why is the file system the face of the OS? Wouldn’t it be better if there was a better way to find stuff?

Now, e-mail, there’s always been a better way to find stuff. You don’t keep your e-mail on your file system, right? The app manages it. And that was the breakthrough, as an example, in iTunes. You don’t keep your music in the file system, that would be crazy.

You keep it in this app that knows about music and knows how to find things in lots of different ways. Same with photos: we’ve got an app that knows all about photos. And these apps manage their own file storage. […]

And eventually, the file system management is just gonna be an app for pros and consumers aren’t gonna need to use it."

Now I know he's not around anymore, but given his strong feelings on the subject I find it unlikely that Apple will do a complete u-turn when they have built the OS around that limitation. The entire aim of iOS was to make the file system unnecessary, so for them to now expose it would be an admission of failure.

As for other features that people ask for, lets look at some of the potential cons shall we?

Widgets
- cons: battery life if they're constantly updating.

Full multitasking
- cons: battery life, badly coded apps hogging resources.

Live wallpapers:
- cons: battery life

Make standard apps removable and updateable separately to the OS (a feature I want myself):
- cons: users could accidentally uninstall apps they count on.

Apple isn't a company that just adds new features and forgets about the cons. They clearly give careful consideration to everything they add and whether that will improve or worsen the user experience. They spend time deciding if the cons are worth it. And history shows they don't bow to pressure, we still don't have flash, for example.

Originally Posted by cynics

Android allows access to the file system. Out of the box it's similar to IOS. If you choose to you can download a file manager app from the App Store.

All downloaded files goto "downloads" which is a single folder app essentially. Unlikely even the most novice user will not be able to find something.

Regardless if you are that big of a novice you'll just use Android like iOS. IMO it's silly if any user can't handle a file manager, iOS is the only OS on any platform that doesn't offer that. Lol

Lots of people do struggle with file systems though, it's probably the most complicated part of a computer that a lot of people have to deal with.

Apples vision is that you shouldn't have to deal with the file system at all, but apps should handle it all..it's kinda like, you don't shop at the factory but at the shops that receive orders from the factory

Originally Posted by Sensamic

If a file system is too complicated for the average iOS user to understand then I don't see what new features can Apple introduce in the future............


This is just ridiculous.

Any new feature apart from a file system would be too complicated for the iOS user... It's amazing how Apple fans assume iOS users and stupid...

Apple will more than likely continue with what it's doing now, adding features in their own way. It's unlikely they'll do a U turn on the file system now.

What they SHOULD do, however, is allow apps to register as a sharing service and expose files for sharing, so that you could for example tap on attach in an email and get a list of apps that allow their files to be shared.

I don't think the current solution is perfect but I think it highly unlikely they will expose the file system, so lets just move on and try to think of realistic solutions. Repeating this same argument over and over is boring and not productive.

[Dave.UK]

Originally Posted by .Asa

Hey!

Isn't this an Apple site? Where Mac people come to discuss apple stuff? Why is everyone so negative against iOS?

This thread looks quite biased.

There are plenty of people out there who use and love iOS. I am one of them. For all my proposes, it just works. I'm not an old person, either. I'm a gamer, and I like iOS for the incredibly huge selection of apps. I like the way that I can install anything I find in the App Store, and know for certain that it will not be malware, will not crash my device, but it probably will be something good. Apple receives a lot of criticism for their control over the App Store, but I think it greatly improves the user experience.

With android, it is not so. There is a whole lot of malware available to android. There are multiple sources from which apps can be downloaded, and you never know what works and what doesn't.

Sorry in advance.

Because its possible to own a Mac and Android, an iPod and Android, an iPad and Android..... you dont have to have an iPhone to use this site. Some people dont seem to understand this.

I do love the way people talk about the huge amounts of malware on android infecting everyones phones! Myself, partner and many friends have been using android for years and none of know one person that has had a problem with malware.

Google Play >> Amount of downloads >> Reviews >> Permissions

I follow that pattern. If it has a low amount of downloads, then im suspicious. If it has bad reviews, then im suspicious. If it asks for permissions that it really shouldn't need, then im suspicious.

People that sideload .apks from the net instead of the play store so they get free games etc deserve to get malware installed on there device.

What about all the dodgy apps that made it through to the ios store? One example you paid a few £ for a game you thought was minecraft, yet turned out to be a ABC block game. Thats why apple had to change the screenshot rules. At least with android you get a 15 minute refund period.

Last point, you talk about games etc on ios - Can you link an xbox/PS3 controller up with any of your ios devices?

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Originally Posted by surjavarman

The iphone doesnt need high end specs cause its running ios. Try running android on an iphone. I'd like to see how fluid and energy efficient it is then.

If you look as XDA, the amount of jellybean roms available for older android devices is amazing.

Take for example the Sony Xperia X8. Last seen running android 2.1 - This can be upgraded to jellybean 4.1.2 and run smoother and faster then it did originally!

Also, look at the amount of reports of people installing ios6 onto their 3gs and it becoming sluggish....

[maxosx]

I believe of more iOS enthusiasts could relax & intelligently discuss the pros & cons of Apple's platform, without spewing venom about Android, it would be a more enjoyable forum for those of us that prefer an adult approach.

[VulchR]

Originally Posted by maxosx

I believe of more iOS enthusiasts could relax & intelligently discuss the pros & cons of Apple's platform, without spewing venom about Android, it would be a more enjoyable forum for those of us that prefer an adult approach.

Fine, if those who favour Android would banish belittling terms like 'fanboy' from the vocabulary and limit their comments to machines rather than people. Unfortunately, not all Android proponents who post here have. Even the title to this thread is presumptuous and pejorative - nobody has any right to call anybody else 'overly devoted' to a personal choice.

Getting back to the thread's discussion of the file system in iOS: my personal view is that Apple's sandboxing of the file system is fine for a mobile phone, perhaps less so for a tablet, and absolutely inappropriate for a full-blown computer or laptop. Mobile phones are for quick tasks and convenience is paramount. Navigating through a hierarchy of folders is unnecessarily time consuming if you are on the move with an iPhone. For a tablet, which could be as versatile as a computer for things like documents and simple spreadsheets, it's all about being able to present documents of various kinds and do light tasks with them. Thus, for the iPad, it would seem to make sense to have a 'Shared' folder that apps could use. In this regard, I do not buy the case that sharing documents could spread viruses, for people use Dropbox, e-mail and other workarounds to share files among apps anyway.

[TheMTtakeover]

Originally Posted by onthecouchagain

Seriously, there's nothing in your post that is accurate. A post like this can only be created from utter misunderstanding of the points I make.

Relax, and try it again. Good luck.

My post is 100% accurate. Although I did prefer the original compared to the one edited by the moderators, but oh well. Look how you Tatar your first post on this thread? By saying exactly what you always say. "I've been saying this for ages" and you did tell people who currently like apples phones that they are hurting the company by not being honest; when clearly you have no way of knowing how they feel. So once again 100% accurate.

[mattopotamus]

now now, simmer down. I personally think onthecouchagain is very open minded to both platforms...obviously he enjoys android more, but all of his post are his opinions and nothing more. He contributes a lot to these forums, and I enjoy his post

[Mr-Kerrse]

Originally Posted by matttye

You don’t keep your music in the file system, that would be crazy.

Why is it crazy i keep my itunes music in a folder & playlist file system

[MonkeySee....]

My goodness, is this thread still going. You're doing a great job matttye

[Brian Y]

Originally Posted by onthecouchagain

Me too.

Dedicated back button, dedicated menu buttons (in iOS... sometimes settings are in the app itself, sometimes it's in the iOS Settings list), far easier access to settings (WiFi, GPS, etc.), easier access to info, easier access to contacts and making phone calls (I love direct dial icons), infinitely better keyboard (with input method options)...

etc., etc.

----------



No, I believe people would have trouble with file management.

But you already hit the nail on the head why that shouldn't be a deterrent to implement it. Those who don't know (or don't want to) use files, don't have to. While those that do, can.

It's so simple a concept.

And again, Mattye has honed in on one particularly agreeable difficult feature to implement. File systems can suck and be confusing (though Android offers very many apps that have easy to use interfaces, but I digress...). Still, some of the other more simpler and rewarding features have little reason not to be implemented.

All these fears and concerns are non-issues. They don't sound like reasons at all; instead sound like excuses.

Can I answer some of these points from a neutral viewpoint.

One of the reasons iOS has been so successful is its simplicity. I would rather Apple polished off features they have, rather than adding numerous extra features (quality vs quantity). Some of your suggestions would also introduce other problems that don't fit in with iOS' methodology - I'll just go over the simplest here (not filesystems!):

Direct Dial Icons:

- There is already a phone app into which you can a) dial, b) tap a contact and c) tap a favourite contact. If you don't want to open the phone app, you can use Siri/Voice Control.

- Adding that feature means you now have two places to store your favourite contacts - adding further data fragmentation (why use icons over favourites, or vice versa).

- Icons have always been for either Applications or Web Apps. Adding a contact to the home screen will blur that line.

Easier to access contacts:

- Contacts are easily accessible through multiple channels. You can see them in the contacts list in the dedicated app, through the contacts list in the phone, or you can search by spotlight. If you don't want to use those, you can use Siri to lookup contact information. I can call a contact without even looking at my screen - I don't see how you can want it to be simpler than that.

Dedicated buttons and settings:

- This is the app developer's choice - and just as it's up to the developer to make the app work, it's down to them to choose whichever is best for that particular app.

- Say, for example, you wanted to turn the sound off in a game. Having that option in the Settings menu would be silly (IMO) - you'd have to leave the game, and it would clutter up settings drastically.

- With the button - would it make sense if Angry birds used iOS' menu bar & back button in the app - meaning you'd have the blue bar visible at all times? Probably not. As a general rule of thumb - developers use the UI controls whenever they use a standard UI view. If they're using a custom design, then it probably makes sense (for aesthetic reasons) to use custom designed controls to match the look and feel of the app.

Now, for the most part, I'm a programmer and a self-proclaimed geek. Yet for things such as filesystem management and other "advanced" features - I don't want to have to worry about that. On a computer, yes, you probably do want to be able to manage the filesystem and whatnot - but on a phone? If I open Pages, my documents are there. If I open music, my music is there. Data is shared between applications through strict APIs, which enable a consistent experience. Simplicity is the key here - and that was largely the key to the iPhone's success.

Adding features for the sake of adding features that only a select few would ever want to use is not the way forward in my opinion.

[Abazigal]

Originally Posted by Timzer

I've said this many times, and now it seems to be showing. The Apple customer who believes Apple can do no wrong. That 3.5 inches is the perfect screen size, that LTE is not needed yet, that NFC is still not needed, that bigger screens are ridiculous, that quad core CPUs are overkill, that 2GB or RAM is overkill, that iOS is amazing even though it's still not much different than in 2007, etc... will be the very customers that bring Apple down. DEMANDING loyal customers are what feed innovation in a market and in a company. Now the competition is coming out in full force and have clearly shot past the iPhone in terms of hardware. Lets forget the OS for now. Hardware sells. Especially when that hardware clearly shows better on the sales floor. Believe what you like, but one thing is for certain, the market waits for no one. I truly believe you will see Apple coming out with a screen size well above 4 inches sooner than later. Samsung and Google seem to be on the fast road to world domination.

While I am not saying those features are not needed, let us look at things in context.

Where I come from, we only recently just got 4G, so it was really no big deal that the earlier iphone models were 3g only.

NFC is not really supported in Singapore anyways, and I am not really the sort of person who will specially go out of my way to find a use for a feature if I do not think it is worth the effort. For NFC to be a part of my life, they will have to actively court me, rather than the other way around.

While I might sometimes wish for a bigger screen, truth is, I find the iphone's 3.5" screen sufficient for everyday tasks like email and web-browsing. For everything else, I have my ipad.

Likewise, while I wouldn't say no to better specs, I kinda like the idea of Apple striving to make its OS as resource-efficient as possible, rather than work around the problem by throwing more specs at it. Granted, I prefer it be a two-pronged approach (keep it efficient, while improving specs so we see an exponential improvement in performance), but considering that developers are likely still coding for older hardware like the ipad mini, ipad2, ipad3 and iphone4s (which use a5 chips), Apple probably sees no reason to crank up their hardware specs too significantly.

In short, I do not consider NFC innovation (at least not without the base company going out of their way to spearhead its implementation). The current wireless charging model is worthless. I do not consider 2gb ram or quad-core processors revolutionary, any more than a 4gb ram laptop is more revolutionary than a 2gb ram laptop.

[ReanimationN]

.

[rans0m00]

Money talks and if people are still buying the iphone almost as quick as they can produce them then why change?

When sales drop to an unacceptable level I figure they will jump on the bandwagon of the higher end android manufacturers and bump the specs up and revamp ios...

[Tinmania]

Originally Posted by TheMTtakeover

My post is 100% accurate. Although I did prefer the original compared to the one edited by the moderators, but oh well. Look how you Tatar your first post on this thread? By saying exactly what you always say. "I've been saying this for ages" and you did tell people who currently like apples phones that they are hurting the company by not being honest; when clearly you have no way of knowing how they feel. So once again 100% accurate.

That tells me all I need to know.

Nothing in this thread warranted that kind of behavior.

As far as I can tell all of us here are either mac or iOS users to some degree. Do you think I scoured the net to find a place to discuss Android and my Nexus 4 and decided that macrumors was the place to go? Of course not. I am in this forum for the same reason as many others who are here: it was easier to get started in Android here as many others were also new to it, with a few more-experienced users thrown in to help out. I was lost at most of the Android sites since I am so late to the party.

I don't understand how anyone can get upset over people using and discussing other options in a forum entitled "Alternatives to iOS and iOS Devices." If this thread didn't start here it was moved here early on.



Michael

[jrswizzle]

The overarching theme of this seems to be 'consumer choice'. Those arguing for changes in iOS (to add features that are in Android) seem to be pushing for more consumer choice....

Don't we already have the choice between Android and iOS (and WP8 and soon BB10)? If one wants all these features that are so great, can't you just buy Android? I don't understand the need to turn iOS into Android - what does it solve?

Listen, just because you don't/can't understand why someone, when presented with both Android and iOS, would choose iOS currently doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons. And if YOU want to be able to mess with a file system or set notification lights or watch your moving wallpaper - if those things are important to you, your choice should be Android.

No platform is perfect (nor will any of them ever be) - they offer different experiences, for different users based on different corporate strategies for the devices. Everyone has a choice - all you should need is to be happy with yours and let others be happy with theirs.

That being said - I find nothing wrong if Apple, within their strategy, decides to implement certain features in the future. Again, one of the reason I buy Apple is based on HOW they implement these features - not the features themselves. But just because I'm content with the iP5 as is doesn't mean I can't be excited and happy if Apple were to add say NFC to the next iPhone. Am I clamoring for it? No. To be honest I can't see how I would use it at this point in time. But if Apple added it within their strategy, I'm not going to complain.

When Apple releases a device that doesn't do the things I need it to do, I'll be upset. Until then, I'll remain content with my everyday devices and content to learn, read and watch for new stuff on the horizon.

[matttye]

Originally Posted by Mr-Kerrse

Why is it crazy i keep my itunes music in a folder & playlist file system

That's Steves opinion not mine I don't mind either way!!

[Mr-Kerrse]

Originally Posted by matttye

That's Steves opinion not mine I don't mind either way!!

I have to have it that way or it would take for ever to find anything when my ipod is plugged in the car

[Tinmania]

Originally Posted by jrswizzle

The overarching theme of this seems to be 'consumer choice'. Those arguing for changes in iOS (to add features that are in Android) seem to be pushing for more consumer choice....

Don't we already have the choice between Android and iOS (and WP8 and soon BB10)? If one wants all these features that are so great, can't you just buy Android? I don't understand the need to turn iOS into Android - what does it solve?

Choosing Android (or something else) is exactly what some of us are doing. But some don't even consider anything else, even if there are benefits, which sends a message to Apple that things are "good enough." As the competition gets better and better even they might consider switching--as I have done with my iPhone to Nexus (to the shock of most who know me). My fear is when the pendulum starts swinging the other way it might be too late for Apple.

In my case I was pretty darned ignorant about Android till I got the Nexus 4. I assumed it was a big mess, slow and stuttering, malware galore, few apps.. basically I was thinking of Android as it was in 1.0. I just assumed my shiny iPhone was better. But, when I started using the Nexus, each day I ran across something that made me think, "wow would I have liked this on iOS!" I didn't really know what I was missing. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

But I would LOVE to have the hardware quality and Apple "feel" in an iOS device that does similar. It really would not take all that much and it can be done without hurting anyone else's desire for things to remain simple.

I think this is the year the shine starts coming off the Apple, at least if they don't hit a home run soon. With the Jobs era fading, management turnovers, production cut rumors, maps debacle, and fixation with lawsuits I just don't get a positive feeling.





Michael

[matttye]

Originally Posted by Mr-Kerrse

I have to have it that way or it would take for ever to find anything when my ipod is plugged in the car

If your music is properly tagged you should be able to browse by artist/album/genre/etc.

[Brian Y]

Originally Posted by Tinmania

Choosing Android (or something else) is exactly what some of us are doing. But some don't even consider anything else, even if there are benefits, which sends a message to Apple that things are "good enough."

Every person that buys an iPhone has the opportunity to buy an android phone. Just because people don't buy an alternative, doesn't mean they haven't considered the alternatives.

And I am sure there are people who buy android phones without having considered an iPhone. Does this mean people are admitting that the current state of Android fragmentation is "good enough"?

If somebody is ignorant to Android - then that says a lot about the (lack of) good marketing of the manufacturers of Android devices.

[TheHateMachine]

Originally Posted by rans0m00

Money talks and if people are still buying the iphone almost as quick as they can produce them then why change?

When sales drop to an unacceptable level I figure they will jump on the bandwagon of the higher end android manufacturers and bump the specs up and revamp ios...

I am sure RIM had the same idea.

[onthecouchagain]

It's time to move on from this thread. There were some fair points, and some not so fair.

Either way, there's no convincing them until Apple does it first. If it's not Apple, then it's not necessary and/or not ready. Of course, if Apple introduces new technology, they're pushing the frontier and leading the industry (Thunderbolt, anyone?).

Apple wins, even when they lose. Everyone else just jumps the gun or makes mistakes.

[Sensamic]

I guess forcing people to use iTunes is way more easier than allowing them access to a file system.........


Oh, but wait, that way Apple makes sure EVERYONE is forced to use iTunes and that way maybe they'll start buying their music, movies, etc from there.

Very clever Apple, very clever...