Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line?

[thenightwatcher]

Originally Posted by Yebubbleman

You bring up an excellent topic of discussion here and while I wish you were right about that sentiment, more than can be properly conveyed here, you're not. As someone who has Mac OS X first and foremost as his computer platform of choice running on his primary machine, who only has Apple IT certifications and is trained for Mac IT stuff (by choice mind you) and not Windows IT stuff, and works in an IT job dominated by Windows PCs, take it from me, it doesn't make much sense.

For one, the amount of control you have as a Windows sys admin over your users machines is lightyears beyond what Mac OS X gives you. And the larger your organization is (and thusly, the more computers there are in place) the tighter the control schemes have to be; that is more or less a law of IT; ironically enough, it's one of the first things you read in the prep book for the Apple Certified Specialist - Deployment 10.6 book. For a small business paying someone else to host their stuff; sure, 1-30 Macs is perfect. Throw in a Mac mini Server or a Mac Pro Server in that mix and you're golden. More than that and you need means of controlling, managing, and locking down systems that OS X just isn't as great with. Plus, when it comes to users at the workplace, computers are tools, not toys. They are meant to be used for the apps they have installed, not fiddled with much in the OS level. Plus, even though Snow Leopard and later supports Exchange out of the box just as well as a Windows PC with Outlook does, you still need an Exchange server. Microsoft doesn't make Exchange for OS X Server (which is a shame, because I feel like that could resurrect OS X Server) so even then, you NEED a PC because, let's face it, OS X Server's use of Contacts, Calendars, and IMAP/POP is good, but it's no Exchange.



Again, if you solely do your work in Photoshop, you're in Photoshop 95% of the time you are at that machine and in the OS maybe another 3%. I assume that you use other things to fill that remaining 2%. From the standpoint of the Windows GUI, it's not THAT bad or THAT different from OS X. Windows problems suck more to deal with than Mac problems; in a workplace, those problems aren't your problem, they are the problem of the IT guy who is paid 36K+ a year to fix your problems. For the money spent, PCs are way cheaper and way faster than Macs are. Period. If the screen isn't an issue, I could build a PC that is faster than the most expensive iMac you can price out. And yes, I could've done that before Ivy Bridge stuff came out. A Mac, especially a desktop, is a poor value in the workplace unless aesthetics or something specific to the platform is important, if not mission critical to you.



iMacs are terrible machines. Substituting a Mac Pro for an iMac using Thunderbolt until the cows come home makes for a replacement that will never be as good as the original solution (namely the Mac Pro) was. The iMac is unupgradable and really the problem isn't your external components as much as it is your internal components. Desktop components in such a thin enclosure is very problematic and is why those machines fail the most frequently out of any of Apple's current Mac product lines. If they were to make a new design and model it after HP's Z1 (which mind you, for an HP machine, is impressively designed), that'd be something. Until they do, I put no stock in the iMac's ability to be anything other than a disappointing placeholder for the mid-tower Mac that everyone and their mother would love to see come to light.

While you make some very accurate points, I don't totally agree with you on all. I too was an IT Admin (a supervisor near the end), for Apple, Pixar, Motorola, others..). I supported many Macs and some Windows PCs. I was putting things in context for the user I replied to. You're right about the server points you made in regards to numbers of users and Exchange. No argument there.

I also agree that an iMac replacing a MacPro is not a great solution either, BUT, as components get smaller, are devices going to get smaller too while still getting more powerful, or will systems remain in the same form factors but using newer and faster components. Is it possible that we'll see miniature workstations? The HP's Z1 was a good example. The iMac could be that. It's too bad Apple has taken the position that it will build "upper middle-class" hardware, in favor of a pretty design and still charge a lot. I'm not happy about that. Apple should make higher end boxes across the line, but they don't and I understand why they don't). Smaller components are less reliable but that won't always have to be the case (relatively speaking, small equals new, new equals not as stable).

But, to me, it's mostly about the OS (and apps). Other people are different. They care about boot times, or being able to "pimp" out their PCs. Fine. I want a great OS/apps experience.

Where I disagree with you, and this is just my personal opinion... is that the interface and OS experience can and does influence the workflow and enjoyment factor by a lot. I think the Windows GUI IS that bad. And when I'm in an application I use the OS's Services to such a great extent that it makes a huge difference in my workflow. Maybe that's lost on some people. For you, as an IT Admin, that's not your biggest priority, but as a user it could be an important one. Display Postscript is one small example of a feature that definitely helps me quite a bit. Uniform Services across the entire OS and applications is another. It's very well done in OS X, IMO. That's a big one actually. I admit to being "Mac biased" but when I work on a PC, I find certain limitations of Windows to be unacceptable. To me, although at first glance an app in Windows may look the same as an app in OS X, there are underlying system level services in OS X that make Windows feel like a cheap, unfinished knock-off. And I'm seriously trying not to be non-objective, and granted I haven't spent as much time on a Windows PC. This is just my own user experience.

As far as IT support goes, I admit I'm a little out of date as I left the IT world quite a few years ago. But when I was leaving, Windows still couldn't boot from a CD/DVD, downtimes (which we measured) were MUCH higher for Windows then they were for OS X (and this was a mixed PC and Mac IT staff severing a 500+ mixed environment in one instance, and a smaller 40+ mixed environment in another). In one instance at a university I had a group of about 80 people, all using Macs, on Mac servers that were responsible for everything but email (which was hosted somewhere else, and I don't remember what system), and that was the cushiest gig ever. I was like the Maytag repair man. After purchasing and deploying the clients, servers, etc.. it was easy street. Perhaps it's that way now with Windows, and my perception is out of date. But now, as an end user, and a content creator in my particular field, I don't see how I could ever use any other current OS.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation. Time to go create some content!

[Yebubbleman]

Originally Posted by thenightwatcher

While you make some very accurate points, I don't totally agree with you on all. I too was an IT Admin (a supervisor near the end), for Apple, Pixar, Motorola, others..). I supported many Macs and some Windows PCs. I was putting things in context for the user I replied to. You're right about the server points you made in regards to numbers of users and Exchange. No argument there.

I also agree that an iMac replacing a MacPro is not a great solution either, BUT, as components get smaller, are devices going to get smaller too while still getting more powerful, or will systems remain in the same form factors but using newer and faster components. Is it possible that we'll see miniature workstations? The HP's Z1 was a good example. The iMac could be that. It's too bad Apple has taken the position that it will build "upper middle-class" hardware, in favor of a pretty design and still charge a lot. I'm not happy about that. Apple should make higher end boxes across the line, but they don't and I understand why they don't). Smaller components are less reliable but that won't always have to be the case (relatively speaking, small equals new, new equals not as stable).

But, to me, it's mostly about the OS (and apps). Other people are different. They care about boot times, or being able to "pimp" out their PCs. Fine. I want a great OS/apps experience.

Where I disagree with you, and this is just my personal opinion... is that the interface and OS experience can and does influence the workflow and enjoyment factor by a lot. I think the Windows GUI IS that bad. And when I'm in an application I use the OS's Services to such a great extent that it makes a huge difference in my workflow. Maybe that's lost on some people. For you, as an IT Admin, that's not your biggest priority, but as a user it could be an important one. Display Postscript is one small example of a feature that definitely helps me quite a bit. Uniform Services across the entire OS and applications is another. It's very well done in OS X, IMO. That's a big one actually. I admit to being "Mac biased" but when I work on a PC, I find certain limitations of Windows to be unacceptable. To me, although at first glance an app in Windows may look the same as an app in OS X, there are underlying system level services in OS X that make Windows feel like a cheap, unfinished knock-off. And I'm seriously trying not to be non-objective, and granted I haven't spent as much time on a Windows PC. This is just my own user experience.

As far as IT support goes, I admit I'm a little out of date as I left the IT world quite a few years ago. But when I was leaving, Windows still couldn't boot from a CD/DVD, downtimes (which we measured) were MUCH higher for Windows then they were for OS X (and this was a mixed PC and Mac IT staff severing a 500+ mixed environment in one instance, and a smaller 40+ mixed environment in another). In one instance at a university I had a group of about 80 people, all using Macs, on Mac servers that were responsible for everything but email (which was hosted somewhere else, and I don't remember what system), and that was the cushiest gig ever. I was like the Maytag repair man. After purchasing and deploying the clients, servers, etc.. it was easy street. Perhaps it's that way now with Windows, and my perception is out of date. But now, as an end user, and a content creator in my particular field, I don't see how I could ever use any other current OS.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation. Time to go create some content!

Great reply. Seriously. Politeness and tone that you use is sadly lacking among most of the others here (myself included, but only to combat the hordes of others).

That said, you left the IT world a long time ago then. We've been able to boot from optical media on the Windows end for over a decade now. And I'm not disagreeing that the Mac has a superior user experience. As soon as it comes pre-loaded with Mountain Lion and all of whatever kinks have been worked out, I'm buying the recently released non-retina 15" MacBook Pro as my primary machine; the machine where I use my computer as a user (or in the case of my gaming rig, a gamer) and not a Windows IT guy working on the clock. I do believe that Windows 7 has come a long way from XP, from 98/2000, from 95 and NT 4, and so forth. Can it still be annoying, absolutely. From the user's perspective, having thought that a ton of things in Windows are stupid, and still thinking such, unless you are a power user or are getting viruses and/or spyware (which on a machine in a managed IT setting is rare), the base experience is strikingly similar. I still prefer Snow Leopard/Lion to Windows 7, but I don't hate Windows 7 all that much.

I don't mean to say that the user experience be damned, but that it's not all that different from the standpoint of a user using the machine to run apps. If you spend all of your time in the Finder/Windows Explorer, yes, you will notice a difference. Otherwise, you really really won't. And from the practical standpoint, it's much more cost-effective to have a managed large array of PCs than it does to have a managed large array of Macs, and not to mention, your degree of control over that array (which mind you, can include things that the user would've otherwise found irritatingly annoying about using Windows versus a Mac had they gone un-managed). If you spend your entire day in Photoshop and Google Chrome. 95% of your experience will be identical to using the same programs on OS X. And Windows, sadly, for things that are more or less identical between platforms, offers superior bang for buck.

[reptilebeats]

to be fair all apple need to learn is not to produce one so regularly, these are upgradable machines when i buy 1 its going to last me a long time. so make one every four years or something i mean just 64gb of ram alone is beyond to much for what i do.

at the moment i run unity, logic studio, photoshop and 3ds max running through parrells all open at the same time on an mac mini 2010 model with 8gb of ram with only two cores. whats the pros like 12 or 16 cores (cant remember). oh and i have two 24 inch displays about a million things plugged into the thing and im still able to write this message to you lot without any down time.

i for one will be buying a pro this year as i have some more stuff i wanna add and honestly i just cant do it as i have run out of space mainly need an extra graphics card but my machines on usb 2 so i don't want to lose quality. but reckon this could easily handle it if there was some more space.

anyone who asks im only using max for models to import into unity so it isnt exactly complicated models probably a max at any time of 10,000 polys, but i rarely even see that amount unless its a character. but unity normally has over 50,000 at any time but its much better at hadling them as its not in parrells

[huangtingting4]

Back in the day the main benefits to the MacPro were the expansion slots, dual processor, extra hard drives, and dual processors.

Now days with iMacs coming with quad cores, 16 GB of ram, and terrabytes of hard drive space, and thunderbolts ability to add external storage, and an expansion slot chassis; I think this is an obvious move. Add a duel processor option to the iMac and there you go. The only people this will hurt is the people that use Mac OSX Server as the MacPro and MacMini is the only server hardware they currently offer.

[FluJunkie]

Originally Posted by huangtingting4

Now days with iMacs coming with quad cores, 16 GB of ram, and terrabytes of hard drive space, and thunderbolts ability to add external storage, and an expansion slot chassis

Poor graphics cards, limited expansion and maxing out at 16 GB of RAM are all problems for me.

I'm using more drives than a iMac can carry without adding cumbersome external enclosures, regularly blow past 16 GB of in-use memory, and put my GPU through the wringer.

And I'm not even trying all that hard.

[milo]

Exactly. Right now I'm running 40 gigs of ram in my mac pro, with all the internal slots filled. Thunderbolt is dramatically more expensive than an internal drive - an iMac with the amount of storage space I need added externally would cost as much as a mac pro anyway.

And quad core doesn't cut it for my needs either, I'm running an older eight core now and I'll probably want my next machine to be 12 or 16 cores.

The only way I could see using a less capable machine would be if Apple figured out a way to offload processing between multiple machines and that just doesn't seem likely.

[loon3y]

seriously, who the hell uses a Mac Pro Server? i only seen one throughout all of the customer sites i've been too. LOL and they dont even use it.


Dells are cheaper, efficient, and compatible with everything, especially with people getting rid of towers these days and getting the regular desktop module and multiple virtual machines on it.



and for Mac Pro for personal use? gaming and stuff, are you really going to install windows and play windows based games (which is basically all the new and high end games) with an over priced desktop? when u have the choice of purchasing a gaming desktop at half the price and deliver the same gaming performance? and if not for gaming i guess its OK for maybe designing and art, but those thinks can be done in an iMac.


the only reason why i would think people would get a Mac Pro is to show off, and the server seems utterly useless your company is run totally of mac, which would lead to alot of problems (most companies that still go all mac still have a couple of windows machines or bootcamp of windows)


windows has the business game on lock, like the iOS has the mobile game on lock (and come on dont compare it to an android, android is a camry compared to the iOS which is a bently)

they are gonna drop this line, unless they really think they can break into the business side (which i highly doubt) with the mac OS. maybe in the future, but i highly doubt it.

and plus all the mac developers would charge extra for any mac program equivalent to a windows program (at least i would think)

[Wicked1]

They are good machines but not nearly worth the money Apple wants. Just look in the Refurb store, they are nuts what they are asking for a 2010 model.

If they just dropped the prices, I bet they would sell more, however moving into a Very High End Mini should work, or come up with a new Mini Design for professionals.

I would never spend this kind of $, but I know there are those out there who need their power.

[milo]

Originally Posted by loon3y

the only reason why i would think people would get a Mac Pro is to show off

You forgot about demanding apps, particularly things like audio and video and ones like FC and Logic that are mac only. Those apps run on any mac but tons of cpu and ram are required for some usage. In that situation the only options are MP or a high end hackintosh.

[pundit]

Originally Posted by milo

You forgot about demanding apps, particularly things like audio and video and ones like FC and Logic that are mac only. Those apps run on any mac but tons of cpu and ram are required for some usage. In that situation the only options are MP or a high end hackintosh.

Or use ProTools or Premiere Pro/Avid

[milo]

Originally Posted by pundit

Or use ProTools or Premiere Pro/Avid

Running those on PC is an option, but some people prefer the mac only versions. I use both PT and Logic and I wouldn't want to have to give up the latter just to get cheaper hardware.

[H2SO4]

Originally Posted by loon3y

seriously, who the hell uses a Mac Pro Server? i only seen one throughout all of the customer sites i've been too. LOL and they dont even use it.


Dells are cheaper, efficient, and compatible with everything, especially with people getting rid of towers these days and getting the regular desktop module and multiple virtual machines on it.



and for Mac Pro for personal use? gaming and stuff, are you really going to install windows and play windows based games (which is basically all the new and high end games) with an over priced desktop? when u have the choice of purchasing a gaming desktop at half the price and deliver the same gaming performance? and if not for gaming i guess its OK for maybe designing and art, but those thinks can be done in an iMac.


the only reason why i would think people would get a Mac Pro is to show off, and the server seems utterly useless your company is run totally of mac, which would lead to alot of problems (most companies that still go all mac still have a couple of windows machines or bootcamp of windows)


windows has the business game on lock, like the iOS has the mobile game on lock (and come on dont compare it to an android, android is a camry compared to the iOS which is a bently)

they are gonna drop this line, unless they really think they can break into the business side (which i highly doubt) with the mac OS. maybe in the future, but i highly doubt it.

and plus all the mac developers would charge extra for any mac program equivalent to a windows program (at least i would think)

I have a Mac Pro running Server. I'm just an ordinary guy.
Dells may be cheaper and more efficient but they are also horrible.
For me both form and function are important. Why can't I have something that looks nice and works well at the same time?
So just to p*** all over your hypothesis. Not only have I installed Windows I have it running in parallels. Am using it for Splinter cell and Soul Reaver right now on Win7. Why because often Mac ports of games don't include gamepad support.
Am I showing off, not really, no. The pro is under a desk where nobody sees it. The server gives me great VPN functionality and increased power to manage client accounts for my other family members. My house is all Macs except the DOS box my work gives me.

Anything else you want to add as right now you are starting to look a fool?

[pundit]

Originally Posted by milo

Running those on PC is an option, but some people prefer the mac only versions. I use both PT and Logic and I wouldn't want to have to give up the latter just to get cheaper hardware.

Still, they are completely comparable. Same result with much the same workflow (and not always "but the best workflow on Mac," no, you probably want to use Avid if you're doing, say, a feature length film.)

As for "cheap hardware" if you really care about sound/video rendering speed you probably want to go with a "cheap hardware" solution, like a quad Opteron... 64 cores that would decimate a current Mac Pro speed wise.

[milo]

Like I said, it's an option. For users who prefer those apps (or prefer running a cross platform app on mac), that's a perfectly valid reason to buy a MP.

[loon3y]

Originally Posted by H2SO4

I have a Mac Pro running Server. I'm just an ordinary guy.
Dells may be cheaper and more efficient but they are also horrible.
For me both form and function are important. Why can't I have something that looks nice and works well at the same time?
So just to p*** all over your hypothesis. Not only have I installed Windows I have it running in parallels. Am using it for Splinter cell and Soul Reaver right now on Win7. Why because often Mac ports of games don't include gamepad support.
Am I showing off, not really, no. The pro is under a desk where nobody sees it. The server gives me great VPN functionality and increased power to manage client accounts for my other family members. My house is all Macs except the DOS box my work gives me.

Anything else you want to add as right now you are starting to look a fool?

haha ^ @ the bold, am i really the fool now? so dells are more powerful, efficient, and cheaper and they're horrible?

funny how you say dells are horrible, im sure you're talking about regular PCs and not servers, dell is ath the top of the server game. so all these 100-200 million dollar companies are all getting horrible servers i see.

lol this made me chuckle outloud.


when have i said YOU SHOULDNT HAVE A MAC PRO?

im saying this line is done, there is no future it in, its a dead product line. im not sure what kind of work you are in, but im damn sure it has nothing to do with business, since you seem to lack in understanding my post. and you know nothing about business, companies do show off that they have mac to show that their either doing good in business, trendy, and can afford it.


this isn't 8th grade where ur saying "oh my computer is better than yours", companies have those to show off because it reflects their image. imagine your a customer or investor of some sort and you walk into an office full of desktops from the 90s. seems like i have to explain things to you since you have no idea of the outside or business world.


yea you're running windows through parallel (i have this as well) and playing games on it? so what? u think most people are going to buy a mac pro and do all that? when you can buy a gaming rig for probably less than half the price and better performance and graphics?



so your an ordinary guy that probably has seen what 1 or 2 servers in his life time? you think that mac pro running windows on parallels can have multiple virtual machines, have databases with 1.2 million items for POS (point of sale because of course it seems you have no idea what you're talking about) and an ERP system?



Yes, you really p*ssed all over my post, without even mentioning how small the market is and how much they sell, nor the profit margin? you think apple would be considering to drop this line if they made a lot of profit?

^ you avoided this subject throughout your whole post, which is the main topic of my post and as well as the thread, i assume its too much for your brain capacity


so you run a couple of macs at home managing "client accounts" and play games on it.


such a great reason, next time when i go to big customers that do 100-200 million dollars ill definitely tell them your advice and suggestions.

if you decide not to read my post saying "its too long" i take it that you have no understanding of what im saying.


have fun with your overpriced server that'll be discontinued in a couple of years. itll be a great collectors item

[loon3y]

Originally Posted by milo

You forgot about demanding apps, particularly things like audio and video and ones like FC and Logic that are mac only. Those apps run on any mac but tons of cpu and ram are required for some usage. In that situation the only options are MP or a high end hackintosh.

like i said for designers and video editors yes. but im sure theres a windows equivalent, but its just more of which program the user is used to. but there isnt much, and theres many that like to use the PC equivalent and get it cheaper.

but how many editors and designers are there that will use a Mac Pro? they cant live off that, they need to appeal to the general consumer to be successful, if not atleast businesses but they dont have that appeal.

they're just not going to last and they're not making profit. and before any smart guy goes off saying "how do you know they're not making profit".

do you think apple is going to discard a product thats selling and making money for them?




and when i mean show off, i obviously mean companies, not individuals. the insides are nice. but really, this product is not going last just living off video editors that prefer the mac apps

[yoak]

I hope I can get a new Mac Pro in the future. I like to stay in the OSX environment, personally and professionally.
It´s a pain to have to use both a PC and a Mac, it´s easier for me to have everything in OSX land, so I can have access to all my stuff on my work machine as well.

I will probably build a PC with my partner (he is a PC guy) so we can edit our RED EPIC footage faster and cheaper than we can now.
I don´t mind sitting down on a PC to just use Adobe CS, but I would much prefer to sit down on a Mac and not having to relearn everything about the computer I´m working on.

And for relying so much on a mobile phone for a company can be quite dangerous, just look at Nokia (or Blackberry).

It was very hard to imagine that most of their customers would jump ship only 10 years ago.

[milo]

Originally Posted by loon3y

they're just not going to last and they're not making profit. and before any smart guy goes off saying "how do you know they're not making profit".

I'll say it anyway. You don't know they're not making a profit on it. Honestly, it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be making a profit considering the price, the components, and that their R&D costs for it must be negligible.

do you think apple is going to discard a product thats selling and making money for them?

I don't. Which is why I do think we'll see some sort of update this year.

[loon3y]

Originally Posted by milo

I'll say it anyway. You don't know they're not making a profit on it. Honestly, it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be making a profit considering the price, the components, and that their R&D costs for it must be negligible.



I don't. Which is why I do think we'll see some sort of update this year.

but its the same case with the 17 inch MBP, im sure they were making profits, but not enough, not enough to manufacture thousands of them or continue with the line. i know they never sold as much as they hoped, which is why i think they discontinued it.

and a whole bunch of old programmers loved the 17 inch MBP as their eyes are failing, but they still got rid of it.


thats what i think is happening with the mac pro, they're just not reaching projected sales, thus not being a success. because if it weren't the case they wouldn't be talking about dropping the line.


its a cool product, i think the guts of the computer is clean and futuristic, but i just dont see a huge enough market for the line to last, especially with the tendencies of apple.

[milo]

That's what you think. Time will tell.

Personally I don't see it as the same as the 17 inch laptop since the MP has functionality no other mac can do - if you really need 64 gigs of ram, there isn't another model that does that. And the 17 was a big engineering challenge, as well as something that needed to be updated to keep up with the other laptops, the MP is off in its own space. And if they were going to dump it, I don't know why Tim Cook would have made a statement that something new is coming this year (sure, it's possible he was lying, but I don't see what would be the point of doing that). But we'll see either way in the next few months, either they'll update it or they may dump it.

[Mago]

Dumb thread...

Facts:

As the new Mac Pro R&D cost + Production Cost < Espected Sales , Apple Will do Mac Pro's.

Mac Pro maybe the most expensive Apple product, but have never beeb the most profitable, neither a "FlagShip" product, just part of the Apple Jungle aimed at the some market, and while Apple could profit those markets, Apple will exploit.

The New Mac Pro, will not be the most desired Apple product, just the most powerful product required by some users who will pay.

Apple may Only redesign the New Mac electronics and do a minor review on the chasis, and Still provide a Solid Offer (mac pro users dont require the aesthetics as iMac users), so less likely is a revolution on the case.

New Mac Pro, will have Latest Available Intel Xeon cpus (dual 16 cores) and may have Std Discrete GPUs, or (as Dell uses to do on their laptops) go for a Propetary GPU Card (more Expensive)...

I bet on a minor review on the Case (Just no CD, Improved Thermodynamics/cooling), and new Motherboards With USB3 and Thunderbolt.

The Cube Mac Pro, is not unlikely, but not will be like a Taller Mac Mini, just like some Micro-ATX desktop with PSU/Fans on top and the mainboard at bottom atn Horizontal improves cooling, with plenty space for 5 HDD, STD GPU Cards and 64GB of RAM on board (maybe upto 128GB), and space for a dramatic BIG Apple Logo at front face.