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Old Feb 21, 2013, 04:57 AM   #326
Freida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flat five View Post
.. i mean, do you really think it matters if someone shaves 5 minutes off their work day because they have some crazy rig that geekbenches 40k? especially when compared to ,say, accomplishing something on the computer in 4 hrs instead of 8 simply because the two of you interacted better?
You are missing the point here. (or you didn't read my earlier post)
We are not talking about 5 mins saving time. We are talking way more than that. People who do rendering, simulations, math complex calculation all need as much power as its possible. There is never ENOUGH power. Those people who need it usually have an idea what is on the market to help them or what is coming soon. Ok, so far so good.
Now, lets take Apple's 12 core that is so old that it makes me sick (they didn't update it when they could with newest Intel CPUs) and then lets look at what is HP offering today (16 core easily)
Now, lets not be bothered by the speed and difference in efficiency (old CPU vs NEW) and lets just focus on the cores here and for the argument sake we will assume that each core is the same speed (so probably the HP's CPU's will have lower clock).
Now, lets take rendering as that is something I can talk about the most as I understand it the most ))
I have a short movie I've been working on and I have a scene with around 1200 frames. Now If I hit render on my machine (12 core MP) it will take roughly 7 days NONSTOP to render the whole scene. That means that my computer is unusable for that time so I can use my laptop or do this partially over night which results in about 14 days (night times only).
Now, if i had 16 core machine it would take around 4.7 days. That is not shaving 5 mins that is shaving 2.3 DAYS!!
Yes, you can then argue that for my needs I should create a small render farm and you COULD be correct but if you don't have those needs every weak then your investment in the second machine would not be returned so easily.
So, you just want Apple to stay current so you can get your job better and faster.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 06:31 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
Not really. I use Mac Pro's all the time in my business.

Thats nice. We've had them make their money back on their first day. Hardly relevant to the cost to quality ratio though. I was merely stating that the current Mac Pro is not good value for money when it comes to its rather poor specs. Even a maxed out one is pretty poorly powered by todays standards.
[COLOR="#808080"]
That's nice. There in lies you problem. You have machine envy. The point I made is the rest of my post, that you split, is that the reliability, easy of setup and use and the guaranteed support network, far outweighs the long term mess that I have been in Dell or HP's camp. 2 week turnaround on a 9K(!) Red Video workstation is utterly unacceptable. Needless to say it didn't come back and I took the relative performance hit on a Mac Pro

Oh If you are making 6-7K one day, you are either ripping your clients or the best self employed web dev out there Ricky.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 08:52 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Badagri View Post
These are better and right up with the Mac Pro's for internal looks. http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/sys...derbox-mk2.htm
They have exposed fans on the outside of the case. How they get away with that and Apple have fans actually inside the case, not somewhere you could easily touch or drop something in them by accident puzzles me. I imagine that's some US only custom PC anyway so it's not the issue and why anyone would want a system with so many fans doesn't make any sense unless it's some monster over-clocked gamer geek wet dream of a system where it's only purpose is frame rates, frame rates!!

----------

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Originally Posted by Lennholm View Post
Um, yes, what's your point?
Systems like that are still for sale in the EU, the Mac Pro isn't. I would have thought that point was obvious.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 09:09 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by prowlmedia View Post
That's nice. There in lies you problem. You have machine envy. The point I made is the rest of my post, that you split, is that the reliability, easy of setup and use and the guaranteed support network, far outweighs the long term mess that I have been in Dell or HP's camp. 2 week turnaround on a 9K(!) Red Video workstation is utterly unacceptable. Needless to say it didn't come back and I took the relative performance hit on a Mac Pro

Oh If you are making 6-7K one day, you are either ripping your clients or the best self employed web dev out there Ricky.
You know it is possible to do a job on the side

In any case, I dont do web development, and havent done for a good 3 years now. Not that your little attempt at tracking me down using publicly available info has anything, whatsoever to do with this discussion, Andrew. If you'd tried snooping hard enough you'd have seen very quickly that we're in the travel industry, and yes, we have quite easily made those kinds of figures in a day. Although 7k would be a very slow day.

Back to the topic in hand, where exactly did I mention Dell or HP, and what have they got to do with what we were discussing?

My points really had absolutely bugger all to do with anything you've replied with. I simply stated, that in my (and clearly quite a few other people's) opinion, the current Pro is very overpriced, and very underpowered considering its supposed to be a 'Pro' machine.

Will it do the job? Sure it will, but as it stands the performance difference between a brand new one, or a slightly older second hand one (or even current gen second hand) is negligible, and one would be better waiting a couple of months for the new Pro before investing in one if you really want to get your moneys worth. I'm not talking about businesses here as to them it really doesn't matter as much, I'm talking about small self employed or freelancer who are looking to grab one.

Oh and by the way, you may want to update your Nominet details. You're currently breaking their rules with your prowl.co.uk domain - its registered as being an individual for personal use only, which it is not - that's grounds for deletion if they found out. Even if you are self-employed you have to inform them.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 10:28 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Freida View Post
Now, lets take Apple's 12 core that is so old that it makes me sick
sick? it really makes you sick? come on man.. that's not apple's problem.. it's yours.


Quote:
Now, if i had 16 core machine it would take around 4.7 days. That is not shaving 5 mins that is shaving 2.3 DAYS!!
right.. but.. i'm talking about your time physically sitting at the computer.. if you're going to sit there for 5 days watching a render complete then maybe you should do something else in the meantime.. like watch paint dry

[edit] lol.. you're seriously thinking 4.7 days is a good thing?? that's horrible
and truth is, those 4.7 days are going to be just as long and excruciatingly painful as 7 days.. use a little foresight and see that for yourself..
maybe 20 years from now, you'll be able to complete those renders in an 'acceptable' timeframe (less than an hour) on a workstation type computer but there's nothing any of the big companies can do about it right this moment.. the technology simply isn't mature enough yet..

but, in 20 years, you'll be pushing the processors beyond it's capabilities and claiming you now 'need' the processing power equivalent to 500 of todays cores..and the cycle continues
[/edit]


Quote:
Yes, you can then argue that for my needs I should create a small render farm and you COULD be correct but if you don't have those needs every weak then your investment in the second machine would not be returned so easily.
http://www.ranchcomputing.com
?
there you go.. 300 cores waiting for your use.. (possibly not suitable for your specific software but probably something similar out there for you)

Quote:
So, you just want Apple to stay current so you can get your job better and faster.
no.. i want apple (and other tech companies) to recognize the real pitfalls of working on a computer and coming up with solutions in which we will experience real gains.. and I'm telling you, processing speed ranks very low on what needs addressed..

and apple is addressing these issues.. to an extent.. so are other engineers.. and i highly highly doubt apple is going to solely focus effort on getting a 32 core machine available as a consumer product (and yes.. pros are consumers as well) simply to appease a few out there suffering from an inferiority complex.. which in turn, 5 years later, will have the same individuals being disgusted and sick over the model..

not only would that type of effort be bad for business, it also wouldn't solve any real problems when it comes to the actual time someone needs to interact with their computers.. and just because you adamantly think 16 cores is going to do you wonders compared to 12 doesn't make it so.. and thankfully, the manufacturers are catching on to this as well and beginning to seek real solutions to real problems.. we're not in a speed race any more.. or, not one in a sense of cpu clock speed.. that race is now fairly predictable and we can generally figure out how 'fast' computers will be in 10 years from now..

there are far better areas to look into if you want to increase speed and/or efficiency within one's workflow.. generally related to the software and how we interact with it... GUI and input/output devices..

Last edited by flat five; Feb 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 12:10 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
Systems like that are still for sale in the EU, the Mac Pro isn't. I would have thought that point was obvious.
As i wrote, the regulation doesn't cover computer parts that you buy separately and assemble to a PC yourself. So what was your point again?
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 01:54 PM   #332
Freida
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Originally Posted by flat five View Post
sick? it really makes you sick? come on man.. that's not apple's problem.. it's yours.
A computer that is sold as new and is 3 years old does make me a bit sick. I see nothing wrong with me but with Apple. They haven't updated for ages and that approach is something people here complain about. Or do you find that acceptable that their PRO machine is not PRO at all? For crying out loud it doesn't even have a thunderbolt but the other toys do. Do you think that my response is really that "wrong" in your eyes?

Your response to the rest is clearly philosophical and touches something completely different. Yes, perhaps you would want computer to be like intelligent creator that you would tell to build you a house that would look like this or that and the computer would do that for you but that is still miles away.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 02:39 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Freida View Post
A computer that is sold as new and is 3 years old does make me a bit sick. I see nothing wrong with me but with Apple. They haven't updated for ages and that approach is something people here complain about. Or do you find that acceptable that their PRO machine is not PRO at all? For crying out loud it doesn't even have a thunderbolt but the other toys do. Do you think that my response is really that "wrong" in your eyes?

if their newest offerings aren't 'pro' then i'd hate to see what you call my computers (2x macpro 1,1 and a 6,2 mbp)..

i mean, i would consider myself a pro user.. meaning, my sole source of income is via projects which rely very heavily on computer aided design..
3D modeling and rendering..

and while i plan on getting new workstations soon, my 7 year old computers are still doing just fine.. sure, the renderings take some time but i have a decent system in place in which the renderings occur while i'm not even at the computers and i'm very rarely in a position (hmm. maybe never?) where the time it takes to complete a render has resulted in a lost job or otherwise stalled the overall project..

i know one thing for sure though.. let's say it takes me a week to complete a set of drawings on my current computers.. then say i just bought the new macpro 16x 4.5ghz hotrod and loaded up my software etc.. it's still going to take me a week to do the drawings.. are you really not seeing that??



Quote:
Your response to the rest is clearly philosophical and touches something completely different.
no.. it's not philosophical and not completely different..
a lot of you guys are sitting around complaining that apple is ditching pro support or whatever but all you're doing is showing lack of knowledge as to what it's like being a professional using a computer on a daytoday basis..

you want a 'zippy' computer that's 'faster' than what your neighbor has via is 16core hp.. well, that's fine and all.. but quit using 'pro' user's needs as your basis of arguments and call it what it really is..
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 03:30 PM   #334
Freida
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Originally Posted by flat five View Post
if their newest offerings aren't 'pro' then i'd hate to see what you call my computers (2x macpro 1,1 and a 6,2 mbp)..

i mean, i would consider myself a pro user.. meaning, my sole source of income is via projects which rely very heavily on computer aided design..
3D modeling and rendering..
What software are you using then? Maya? Max? Autocad?
If you have 1.1 and is fine with that then clearly your needs are different to others like me. So, you call yourself PRO because what you do and the level of computing power you need but others like me need more power. So why not calling that PRO?
For some the rendering "downtime" is basically downtime. Tried lighting scene with simulation of dynamics etc with raytracing and all that 'heavy' stuff in high resolution? If you are waiting lets say 5 mins for a part of the image to see the result and its not what you want and you have to retweak it until its perfect then those 5 mins each time makes you less productive.
However, if you had faster machine and the downtime was lets say 3 mins then you would do more work in one day. All those things add up and thats just for lighting etc part. There are other things to consider as I'm sure you are aware of that.
Its time consuming process and every core counts. The more you have the faster you are. Simple as that. So, there are different types of PRO users. You are fine with 1.1 others are not. So, lets call it what it is, right?
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 03:43 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Lennholm View Post
As i wrote, the regulation doesn't cover computer parts that you buy separately and assemble to a PC yourself. So what was your point again?
er.. let me see. You said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennholm View Post
"PC's you build yourself are of course not regulated, only PC's that are sold pre-assembled.
And in response to it, OBVIOUSLY refering to pre-built systems I said,

Quote:
And how many of those would have the same mess of wires and exposed fan blades inside as a self-built system? Probably most of them I'm guessing.
If you can't grasp such a simple point, sarcasm is worthless because you're not even comprehending what you're reading properly to be sarcastic about in the first place
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 06:11 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by flat five View Post
if their newest offerings aren't 'pro' then i'd hate to see what you call my computers (2x macpro 1,1 and a 6,2 mbp)..

i mean, i would consider myself a pro user.. meaning, my sole source of income is via projects which rely very heavily on computer aided design..
3D modeling and rendering..

and while i plan on getting new workstations soon, my 7 year old computers are still doing just fine.. sure, the renderings take some time but i have a decent system in place in which the renderings occur while i'm not even at the computers and i'm very rarely in a position (hmm. maybe never?) where the time it takes to complete a render has resulted in a lost job or otherwise stalled the overall project..

i know one thing for sure though.. let's say it takes me a week to complete a set of drawings on my current computers.. then say i just bought the new macpro 16x 4.5ghz hotrod and loaded up my software etc.. it's still going to take me a week to do the drawings.. are you really not seeing that??




no.. it's not philosophical and not completely different..
a lot of you guys are sitting around complaining that apple is ditching pro support or whatever but all you're doing is showing lack of knowledge as to what it's like being a professional using a computer on a daytoday basis..

you want a 'zippy' computer that's 'faster' than what your neighbor has via is 16core hp.. well, that's fine and all.. but quit using 'pro' user's needs as your basis of arguments and call it what it really is..
No it's actually not..

The fastest 1,1's are about comparable to an i5 speed wise. 1,1's also have PCIe V1 which means that the graphics card the will help you run that animation is a half speed compared to existing MP's and will be 1/3 speed for new ones.

If you were to take and new 16 core Sandy workstation put a pair os say 680's in it. the animation that requires a week for you to render will most take less that a day in a modern system (provided it can use CUDA).
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 07:37 PM   #337
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'Cuz that's an off-the-shelf Z820.... http://www.hp.com/united-states/camp..._features.html
Hmm, does osX have all drivers to install to that...?

Amazing how US centric Cook seems to be.
Last year when MP had "a bad bumb" we got an email.
Now that MP has disappeared from EU, there's big silence.
Is this the new double security scheme?
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 11:12 PM   #338
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No it's actually not..

The fastest 1,1's are about comparable to an i5 speed wise. 1,1's also have PCIe V1 which means that the graphics card the will help you run that animation is a half speed compared to existing MP's and will be 1/3 speed for new ones.

If you were to take and new 16 core Sandy workstation put a pair os say 680's in it. the animation that requires a week for you to render will most take less that a day in a modern system (provided it can use CUDA).

look.. i admit, i'm not the best at getting a thought out of my head -> into the keyboard -> out to the webz -> and into your brain but...

you're talking as if the computer is doing all the work and the only limiting factors are how fast it can add 2&2..

but if i calculate the time i spend creating a render, MOST of the time has nothing to do with pushing the make_me_pretty button..

it's the drawing/modeling and texturing which is 90% of the work.. or the work that i physically do while interacting with the computer.. 10% of the time is me setting up the lights etc in which i'll often need to run downscaled previews to make sure things are going to look right in the finals.. and sure, having a kickass computer during those times are surely welcome and i'll often network with a laptop or desktop or both just to get more cpus going..

but please try to recognize the point being made.. i could have 500 cores going during that phase in which my previews would come back instantaneously.. and what have i actually accomplished? not much.. i shaved 5% off my project time by being the proud owner of the worlds fastest hypothetical computer on earth.. on a more realistic level, say i have i 16 core computer which is seemingly so much better to some of you all, i just shaved 3% off the actual time..

most of the workload is simply unaddressed.. you just threw away a lot of effort & money at an attempt to increase efficiency but didn't really solve anything.. that's because clock speed and/or #of cpus are not the problem.. the problem lies elsewhere..


the actual time it takes to complete the final renders.. that's a different story.. while the computer is chugging along, i can be at the beach.. working on other things.. sleeping.. eating. whatever... and this is when i demand a 'pro' product.. that thing needs to go full speed for a week straight if i so desire and not break.. and in my experience, this is the type of performance i can expect out of a macpro.. they're relatively very well built and are generally of high quality throughout.. that's why they're called macpro


but do understand.. renders aren't my final product.. in fact, i personally don't even need them to arrive at my ends.. i use them more for client communication / sales purposes..

so in that effect, i'm by no means a 'professional renderer'

and if i were, i definitely wouldn't be sitting around daydreaming and/or whining about mac doesn't have 16 core machines but soandso does.. a 16 core machine for someone who makes their living strictly via producing computer renders or animations sounds like a horrible idea to me..

that would be like a carpenter who only has a handsaw.. it's just a stupid idea..

i mean, if it's your job to churn out renders day after day after day, you better have more than a couple of computers linked up.. and in that case, buying 5 16core macpros and assembling them as one just seems ridiculous to me and a waste of money.. you'd only need one macpro then build or buy the cpuasaurs in a non-workstation train of thought..
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:47 AM   #339
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er.. let me see. You said,



And in response to it, OBVIOUSLY refering to pre-built systems I said,



If you can't grasp such a simple point, sarcasm is worthless because you're not even comprehending what you're reading properly to be sarcastic about in the first place
You were NOT OBVIOUSLY referring to pre-built systems when you were talking about non-adhering systems with cable mess and exposed fan blades since those are not allowed to be distributed anymore than the Mac Pro is since the regulation took effect.
I guess I was giving you too much credit by assuming you understood that the regulations apply equally to everyone else as they do to Apple.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:53 AM   #340
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You were NOT OBVIOUSLY referring to pre-built systems when you were talking about non-adhering systems with cable mess and exposed fan blades since those are not allowed to be distributed anymore than the Mac Pro is since the regulation took effect.
I guess I was giving you too much credit by assuming you understood that the regulations apply equally to everyone else as they do to Apple.
Not at all. Just suggesting there's a lot of systems out there from companies making pre-built PCs, and I mean the smaller companies, not Apple, HP or Dell, the little operations where they typically offer PC repair services out of small shops. I'm sure those companies are still selling system they've built themselves as a complete PC system to their customers that still use the internal cooling systems they have in stock because I can't see companies throwing out inventory over night or trying to get a refund on what they already have in stock from their wholesalers when they know their customers aren't going to be opening the cases themselves.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 06:32 AM   #341
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Not at all. Just suggesting there's a lot of systems out there from companies making pre-built PCs, and I mean the smaller companies, not Apple, HP or Dell, the little operations where they typically offer PC repair services out of small shops. I'm sure those companies are still selling system they've built themselves as a complete PC system to their customers that still use the internal cooling systems they have in stock because I can't see companies throwing out inventory over night or trying to get a refund on what they already have in stock from their wholesalers when they know their customers aren't going to be opening the cases themselves.
Or they're just adding fan guards as Apple could have.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 09:31 AM   #342
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Or they're just adding fan guards as Apple could have.
I think it goes beyond fan-guards because the article on Macworld at the end of January said "the amendment to the IEC 60950-1 regulation increases requirements around electrical port protection and the fan guards in the system".

I think Apple have jumped on the opportunity to remove them from sale instead of making what could be costly alterations to an almost EOL design because they're winding down production of the current line and have something more up to date planned for this year.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 09:40 AM   #343
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I think it goes beyond fan-guards because the article on Macworld at the end of January said "the amendment to the IEC 60950-1 regulation increases requirements around electrical port protection and the fan guards in the system".

I think Apple have jumped on the opportunity to remove them from sale instead of making what could be costly alterations to an almost EOL design because they're winding down production of the current line and have something more up to date planned for this year.
This is my hope..

But my comment was more to the what a small PC builders doing..
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 09:44 AM   #344
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I'm curious, regardless how old the current Mac Pro is and people/business unable to buy them in Europe. I wonder if some are importing them? can you do that with the Apple US store? or would it be rejected or redirected like what Amazon does?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 01:22 PM   #345
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I'm curious, regardless how old the current Mac Pro is and people/business unable to buy them in Europe. I wonder if some are importing them? can you do that with the Apple US store? or would it be rejected or redirected like what Amazon does?
There are few still available:
http://www.amazon.de/Apple-12-Core-M...1557008&sr=8-1
:"Nur noch 18 auf Lager (mehr ist unterwegs)."
(Although that "more to come" is pretty funny...)
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 03:32 PM   #346
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I have 5 MacPro's in my studio that I'd love to start replacing. I know as a "pro" I don't count much to Apple these days, but some props to the original users who helped put them in the pole position would be great.

If an update does come, I think they'll probably ditch the optical drive bays (I can't tell you when the last time we sent out a CD or DVD was) and move one of those and several slots to a separate thunderbolt break-out box. They'll prob stick with the basic tower design, but make it much, much smaller and more modern. Just musing.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 03:50 PM   #347
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If an update does come, I think they'll probably ditch the optical drive bays (I can't tell you when the last time we sent out a CD or DVD was) and move one of those and several slots to a separate thunderbolt break-out box.
So true. It's been years since I've burned a disc. Or put anything into it. Even my Windows boxes have no optical drives in them now. I took them out for fan space or for fan controllers.

If I ever need them I hook them up with those IDE to USB/Sata to USB kits.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 05:58 PM   #348
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They'll prob stick with the basic tower design, but make it much, much smaller and more modern. Just musing.
something i don't hear anyone really talking about is how a much smaller design would incorporate into many/most existing workspaces..

don't get me wrong.. i think a smaller design has way more positives than negatives (i.e.- i won't automatically have a nifty little shelf under my desk )

but, i think if apple does shrink the design.. a lot of people are going to order one, put it in the same spot as the old one.. and be like "uhh.. wait a minute"..



[EDIT]

ie:
; )


Last edited by flat five; Feb 24, 2013 at 06:43 PM. Reason: cuz i had to edit it
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 03:44 AM   #349
GermanyChris
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Yet I rip and burn daily. There is no need to remove the optical drives so why do it?
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 09:26 AM   #350
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Quote:
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In any case, I dont do web development, and havent done for a good 3 years now. Not that your little attempt at tracking me down....
Whoa - not snooping. Just looked at you "About me" on here...where it said Self employed web development freelancer.. Sorry!

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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
Oh and by the way, you may want to update your Nominet details. You're currently breaking their rules with your prowl.co.uk domain....
Ah Thanks, I have just swapped over from easyspace to Justhostme a few months back - So something has occurred there.
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