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coyote

macrumors member
Apr 17, 2003
46
0
Sausalito, CA
Apple is doing the right thing

All major refactorings require some loss of functionality. Apple will no doubt continue to move the software forward, but it will be cleaner and better than if Apple hadn't stepped back first.
 

MikeM1988

macrumors newbie
Feb 16, 2012
25
0
I am using Keynote and Pages in my profession, that makes Pages and Keynote Pro Apps for me.

Exactly. I'm amazed at the number of people, be they poor Microsoft serfs or otherwise, who don't get that large numbers of people use iWork apps professionally and find that they work just fine for their purposes.

On the rare occasions that I'm forced to work in Word, I wonder what committee of chimpanzees put together an app with such an ugly interface and convoluted methods of doing things that can be achieved instantaneously in Pages.


pss. Apple please give me back "Save As" instead of this "Duplicate" S****.

In fact, Apple did return "Save As" to its former functionality in Mountain Lion after a couple of false starts. You merely hold down the Option key when clicking on the File Menu for it to appear (or key Shift-Command-S).

This is quite germane to the topic at hand. Apple returned Save As precisely because there was a sustained and very loud barrage of protest across multiple forums when it was removed. It took some time, but for once Apple ultimately listened to its users...even though there were many who predicted that this would never happen and ridiculed those of us who were making the noise.

Until now, I thought the removal of Save As was the greatest fiasco in Apple history. But I believe this iWork roll-out has surpassed it. To say it was handled in a ham-handed fashion doesn't begin to describe it.

But past being precedent, it's why those of us disgusted by Apple's inexcusable actions with regard to iWork have to mount even louder and more sustained protests, until the company at least communicates its future intentions.

The old silent treatment we've got to-date speaks of a tremendous arrogance that is turning Apple proselytizers of 25 years or more like me into hardened cynics who would gladly bolt the platform if we realistically had anywhere to go.
 

Luis Ortega

macrumors 65816
May 10, 2007
1,139
331
Now that apple has transitioned to the free crapware model like in ios, where they offer a vary basic app for free then nickel and dime you to death with in-app purchases to make it even remotely functional, I suspect that these features will soon be offered as an additional purchase in those apps, like you now need to buy content if you want to use garageband.
We should have realized that there is no such thing as "free" software.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,489
43,414
The more I use the iWork apps the more disappointed I am in them. Yeah, its great I can work on the same document on my Mac, iPad and iPhone (or even the web) but it looks like crap and I have so few options.
 

robjulo

Suspended
Jul 16, 2010
1,623
3,159
All major refactorings require some loss of functionality. Apple will no doubt continue to move the software forward, but it will be cleaner and better than if Apple hadn't stepped back first.

Why does it require some loss of functionality? It doesn't if the project is properly planned and executed instead of being forced to cut corners to get it out on time.

It goes back to something I learned long ago, never trust what an IT guy tells you in terms of timeframe and costs. In my experience, add 6 months and $1 million to whatever they are telling you at the begining.
 

moderately

macrumors 6502
Sep 7, 2010
323
20
Well, I don't know what to think except that Apple was targeting me with the Numbers update. Initially, There was a page that broke after line 256 (!) but with the added functionality on iOS I didn't need that page anymore. Good thing because I couldn't debug it.
I have been having a great time tweaking my 2 spreadsheets (business inventory and income) and I have been able to do everything I imagine I want to do. I feel like such an amateur.
 

2IS

macrumors 68030
Jan 9, 2011
2,938
433
Exactly. I'm amazed at the number of people, be they poor Microsoft serfs or otherwise, who don't get that large numbers of people use iWork apps professionally and find that they work just fine for their purposes.

A large number of people race their stock Civic's, that doesn't make a Civic a race car. Just because you use the incorrect tool for the job doesn't mean it becomes the correct tool because you choose to use it.
 

MikeM1988

macrumors newbie
Feb 16, 2012
25
0
A large number of people race their stock Civic's, that doesn't make a Civic a race car. Just because you use the incorrect tool for the job doesn't mean it becomes the correct tool because you choose to use it.

Let me make sure I understand this.

You're saying that you — from your completely uninformed perspective about the work I do — can nevertheless tell me that I'm using the incorrect tool for my job?

If I've misunderstood you in some way, please help me out.
 

bilboa

macrumors regular
Jan 16, 2008
213
1
Let me make sure I understand this.

You're saying that you — from your completely uninformed perspective about the work I do — can nevertheless tell me that I'm using the incorrect tool for my job?

If I've misunderstood you in some way, please help me out.

I think maybe "incorrect" was the wrong word for him to use, since obviously you're free to use whatever you want to get your job done, but otherwise I think his point is valid. If your definition of a "professional" tool is just that some people use it to get work done, then that renders the whole definition of "professional tools" useless, since I'm sure for pretty much any given item or piece of software, you could find someone who uses it for work. Pick the cheapest brand of wrench that money can buy, and there are bound to be some people somewhere using that brand of tools to do paid work. By your definition that means those are professional wrenches. Or if I sometimes use my $5 pocket knife to get some electrical work done at my job, by your definition it's a professional tool, and I'm entitled to blame the manufacturer if it doesn't turn out to be well suited to professional construction work.

I think it makes more sense to define "professional" in regards to tools based on what the manufacturer's intent, or at least claimed intent, was, not on how some users use it. If the manufacturer's stated intent was for a tool to be suitable for professional work, then it's a "pro" tool and it makes sense to judge it based on its ability to support its intended profession. Otherwise it's not a professional tool.

That said, iWork is a bit ambiguous in my opinion. Since the name of the product includes the word "work", it does seem like Apple may be implying that it's suitable for professional work. That said, looking at the feature set and marketing for iWork, it seems clear to me that it's intended more for home users or light work duty, and certainly not for people who's livelihood depends primarily on writing or number crunching or data processing. I'd make an exception for Keynote; that really does seem very useful for professionals. But Pages and Numbers are definitely designed to heavily prioritize ease of use and shallow learning curve over functionality, compared to MS Office or other office suites.
 

MikeM1988

macrumors newbie
Feb 16, 2012
25
0
I think maybe "incorrect" was the wrong word for him to use, since obviously you're free to use whatever you want to get your job done, but otherwise I think his point is valid. If your definition of a "professional" tool is just that some people use it to get work done, then that renders the whole definition of "professional tools" useless, since I'm sure for pretty much any given item or piece of software, you could find someone who uses it for work. Pick the cheapest brand of wrench that money can buy, and there are bound to be some people somewhere using that brand of tools to do paid work. By your definition that means those are professional wrenches. Or if I sometimes use my $5 pocket knife to get some electrical work done at my job, by your definition it's a professional tool, and I'm entitled to blame the manufacturer if it doesn't turn out to be well suited to professional construction work.

I think it makes more sense to define "professional" in regards to tools based on what the manufacturer's intent, or at least claimed intent, was, not on how some users use it. If the manufacturer's stated intent was for a tool to be suitable for professional work, then it's a "pro" tool and it makes sense to judge it based on its ability to support its intended profession. Otherwise it's not a professional tool.

That said, iWork is a bit ambiguous in my opinion. Since the name of the product includes the word "work", it does seem like Apple may be implying that it's suitable for professional work. That said, looking at the feature set and marketing for iWork, it seems clear to me that it's intended more for home users or light work duty, and certainly not for people who's livelihood depends primarily on writing or number crunching or data processing.

My "livelihood depends primarily on writing." Needless to say, there are many different types of "writing." I don't write books, scientific studies or the like...therefore, I don't need endnotes, footnotes or other niceties such as this.

What I do need is a word processor that allows me to do my job easily with a minimum of frustration. From its inception up to the present day, Pages 4.3 has always filled that bill admirably. (Obviously, this is a statement that can't be made about Pages 5.0.)

If Microsoft Word is a "professional" writing tool, then God save me from professionals. The work I do on a day-to-day basis would be several orders of magnitude more difficult and frustrating if I were forced to use this horrible app.

I'm entirely uninterested in how Apple, you or anyone else chooses to define "professional." All I know is that I write for a living, and that Pages was supremely well-suited to my particular needs.

The poster to whom I replied made an absurd statement with absolutely no merit to it. All that matters is whether I'm using a tool that works for me. Any additional discussion is moot.
 

bilboa

macrumors regular
Jan 16, 2008
213
1
My "livelihood depends primarily on writing." Needless to say, there are many different types of "writing." I don't write books, scientific studies or the like...therefore, I don't need endnotes, footnotes or other niceties such as this.

What I do need is a word processor that allows me to do my job easily with a minimum of frustration. From its inception up to the present day, Pages 4.3 has always filled that bill admirably. (Obviously, this is a statement that can't be made about Pages 5.0.)

If Microsoft Word is a "professional" writing tool, then God save me from professionals. The work I do on a day-to-day basis would be several orders of magnitude more difficult and frustrating if I were forced to use this horrible app.

I'm entirely uninterested in how Apple, you or anyone else chooses to define "professional." All I know is that I write for a living, and that Pages was supremely well-suited to my particular needs.

The poster to whom I replied made an absurd statement with absolutely no merit to it. All that matters is whether I'm using a tool that works for me. Any additional discussion is moot.

Of course it makes sense for you to use Pages for your work if it serves your purposes well, so if Pages works for you, then the poster who said you're using the "incorrect" tool was incorrect. The discussion you got involved in though was discussing whether Pages could be reasonably classified as a professional tool, where the context was whether it makes sense to blame Apple for Pages's lack of advanced features compared to some other word processors. I think my "$5 pocket knife" analogy is relevant. If my pocket knife happens to work adequately well for some work task, that's great and there's no reason I shouldn't use it. However if it turns out to be lacking for serious work, it would make most sense for me to go looking for another tool specifically designed to support the kind of work I'm doing. It would make less sense for me to claim that because I'm using my pocket knife for work, it's a professional tool, and go blame the pocket knife manufacturer for not making a knife that suits my needs.
 

MikeM1988

macrumors newbie
Feb 16, 2012
25
0
Of course it makes sense for you to use Pages for your work if it serves your purposes well, so if Pages works for you, then the poster who said you're using the "incorrect" tool was incorrect. The discussion you got involved in though was discussing whether Pages could be reasonably classified as a professional tool, where the context was whether it makes sense to blame Apple for Pages's lack of advanced features compared to some other word processors.

No, the discussion I was involved with was not "whether Pages could be reasonably classified as a professional tool."

I quoted another poster who said: "I am using Keynote and Pages in my profession, that makes Pages and Keynote Pro Apps for me."

My response was: "Exactly. I'm amazed at the number of people, be they poor Microsoft serfs or otherwise, who don't get that large numbers of people use iWork apps professionally and find that they work just fine for their purposes."

The key phrase is use iWorks apps professionally. As I said in my last post, I'm not at all interested in how the apps are "classified" — my only concern is whether they work for my purposes.

The bottom line for me (and many, many others in the same position as I am who have commented on Pages 5.0) is this: we quite happily used Pages 4.3 "professionally," but we cannot use Pages 5.0 in the same way.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but if you're trying to say that it's OK that Pages 5.0 has been emasculated because Pages 4.3 was never a "professional" app to begin with — then I'll have to disagree with you.

And by the way, I consider Pages 4.3's "lack of advanced features" relative to Word to be a benefit, not a detriment. As I noted elsewhere, it's true that Word can do some things that Pages cannot. But it's also true that those capabilities are necessary to only a small percentage of the universe of Word Processor users.

The trade-off for the lack of these "advanced features" is a clean, intuitive interface that enables me to work productively when I'm in Pages. On the rare occasions when I'm forced to work in Word, I constantly scratch my head at how anyone could have come up with an app with such an ugly interface, and one that makes it so difficult to get things done that are a snap in Pages.
 

tdtran1025

macrumors 6502
Dec 26, 2011
275
0
Linking text boxes

I don't know if it is broken codes or omission, but the feature of linking overflow text to another text box is a glaring one. In addition to that, if one tries to open an old document created by earlier versions, the links are broken and the document is encoded with the current version, which cannot be opened anymore by the version in which it was created. A sad truth it is!
 

Traverse

macrumors 604
Mar 11, 2013
7,688
4,400
Here
Well, one cool new feature in iOS Pages is that you can finally add your own templates now.

So instead of having to duplicate a regularly used format like a letterhead every time, you can select your stored template from the list. This is a very welcome new iOS feature and a long time coming!

Please! Please! PLEASE! Tell me how you did that! I have many iWork 09 templates that I converted to iWork 13 and saved as templates, but they don't show up on iOS Pages....I'm still using the duplicated method....
 

southernpaws

macrumors 6502
Jan 16, 2008
341
0
Now that apple has transitioned to the free crapware model like in ios, where they offer a vary basic app for free then nickel and dime you to death with in-app purchases to make it even remotely functional, I suspect that these features will soon be offered as an additional purchase in those apps, like you now need to buy content if you want to use garageband.
We should have realized that there is no such thing as "free" software.

Seems unlikely. I think it's much more likely that they're including it to enhance the overall experience and to sell more hardware rather than profiting off small in app purchases. Perhaps time will tell, but apple really does make their money on hardware.
 

gatearray

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2010
1,130
232
Please! Please! PLEASE! Tell me how you did that! I have many iWork 09 templates that I converted to iWork 13 and saved as templates, but they don't show up on iOS Pages....I'm still using the duplicated method....

Well, I'm not in front of the iPad right now, but if memory serves…

I created the templates in Pages on the Mac, and I believe I then emailed it to myself, then opened it in Pages on the iPad, and it saved the template to a "user" section in the templates area of the iPad app.

If you have any trouble please let me know, I'll retrace my steps and post again. :)
 

Traverse

macrumors 604
Mar 11, 2013
7,688
4,400
Here
Well, I'm not in front of the iPad right now, but if memory serves…

I created the templates in Pages on the Mac, and I believe I then emailed it to myself, then opened it in Pages on the iPad, and it saved the template to a "user" section in the templates area of the iPad app.

If you have any trouble please let me know, I'll retrace my steps and post again. :)

Sorry for the late reply, unfortunately, it didn't work. I opened the template on Mac Pages and "shared" a copy to myself via email. When I select "open in Pages" on the iPad it just opens as a normal document that I can duplicate, but not a template. Perhaps though iCloud.com?
 

tjwaido

macrumors member
Aug 24, 2008
74
4
The wild west.
So, now that Pages 5 got some of the features back, has anyone started using it again?

• Toolbar/Format bar is still not where it needs to be.
• Customize Format Window. Holy crap this thing lacks the tools!
• Duplicate instead of Save As... has been a headache since Apple made that stupid change.
• Character spacing is still missing from format window.
• Have to move tables using the matrix dot instead of clicking anywhere I want and dragging the table where I want.
• Can no longer adjust table row height and column by clicking on the line. Have to use stupid row and column guides that appear.
• Center snapping missing from tables and many other items.
• Snapping lines are yellow and hard to see--no longer blue.
• Drop down arrows in the format bar. Really? Half the format bar is empty and is a waste of space.
• Bring back floating inspector!

I am still using iWork 09. Simple as that.
 
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