Apple Denies Knowledge of NSA's iPhone Spying Program

Gutwrench said:

Doesn't the IRS already have most of that?

My biggest objection to this is that I don't want "heroes" like Snowden absconding to China and Russia with my personal info.

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A cop pulls you over. You weren't violating any traffic laws at all. He asks you to step out of your car, and then handcuffs you and does a full search of your person and your vehicle. Never gives any reason why. Does the same to your spouse and children.

Does this sound OK to you?

Eraserhead said:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/01/trust-and-nsa
http://www.spiegel.de/international...s-a-940994.html#js-article-comments-box-pager

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Come on. I read both documents (I'm fluent in German as well). Neither of the articles substantiate any claims. Both of them just speculate and one of them doesn't even mention Apple.

Where is the proof here that Apple has allowed the NSA or any other organisation to tamper with their products before they are shipped to the customer?

Winni said:

Thanks to the NSA, you live in a place that is worse than Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. If Hollywood wouldn't keep you so distracted, you would wake up screaming in your bed.

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Oh stop with this crap. The USA is nowhere near being like Nazi Germany, you'd have to be extremely ignorant, naive, and idiotic to think that. Stop exaggerating.

Shrink said:

Sorry for your family's unfortunate experience.

Shall I counter with multiple FBI violations of civil rights?

Personal, anecdotal, material is not sourcing your assertion in any usefully objective manner. You made a general assertion...need objective support.

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Geez... I've met Americans like you and you've seemed to think that you're the only country on this planet, you're the only people who matter and everything bad happens and you keep on going on and on about your "tragedies". Grow up and get a grip. There actually are places in the world that are in worse situations than you are.
Of course, you can't blame this on everyone because most people are nice, decent, considerate and thoughtful.

ihuman:D said:

Oh stop with this crap. The USA is nowhere near being like Nazi Germany, you'd have to be extremely ignorant, naive, and idiotic to think that. Stop exaggerating.

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Yeah, this guy is incredible. He should know better because he is German himself and has been educated extensively about this in high school. Go visit his website (the URL is in his MR profile) and you get some more perspective on what makes him tick.

The current situation might be remotely comparable to what the Staatsicherheistdienst (Stasi) was responsible for during the cold war. They followed and spied on citizens to unmask them as collaborators or spies for Western Europe. But here the comparison stops, as they were also responsible for executions and incarcerations of civilians.

It would be great if some people here would get some perspective and learn the value of actual fact based reasoning to base their opinions on.

ihuman:D said:

Geez... I've met Americans like you and you've seemed to think that you're the only country on this planet, you're the only people who matter and everything bad happens and you keep on going on and on about your "tragedies". Grow up and get a grip. There actually are places in the world that are in worse situations than you are.
Of course, you can't blame this on everyone because most people are nice, decent, considerate and thoughtful.

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I'm not clear on what my being American has to do with my request for objective support for you assertion quoted in my original post.

I fully agree that many Americans are ethnocentric, and sadly unaware of the situation in the rest of the world.. That is, however, not a response to my request for objective data.

I'll do my best to grow up...and I'm getting a grip now. Thank you for the valuable advice.

Now, perhaps you can respond to the request in my post which quoted you.

I don't believe for a second this was a surprise to Apple. It was probably one of those "ok we'll help you but if the public finds out we don't know anything" deals. I'm sure Apple could release an update and modify their systems to thwart this, why isn't a promise of such action forthcoming?

LV426 said:

In what way does it miss the mark?

Those comments were written in direct response to someone's assertion that if you've got nothing to hide, you don't have a problem.

The points above show that everyone has plenty of things to hide, so the argument "if you've nothing to hide..." falls at the first hurdle.

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I can make a distinction between the government back-dooring the masses mobile phones and an individual posting their vital personal information on a public forum. For the record, I don't like the government doing this if it violates existing law, and if it doesn't I'd likely support changing the law. However I do not fear the government stealing my identity and diverting my finances as I do someone in the general public anywhere in the world. The U.S government has everything they need to do so already. Hence my tongue-in-cheek comment that I fear more from a "hero" type person like Snowden running off to China or Russia with my info.

The person claiming they had nothing to hide clearly was in the context of from the government. Common sense says people have much to hide from other individuals. The 'post your private info on a forum' argument is an apple to oranges comparison, at least in my opinion.

Konrad9 said:

A cop pulls you over. You weren't violating any traffic laws at all. He asks you to step out of your car, and then handcuffs you and does a full search of your person and your vehicle. Never gives any reason why. Does the same to your spouse and children.

Does this sound OK to you?

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Assuming in your scenario the stop, detention, and search was illegal, then nope it's not okay. And if it happened in California and any incriminating evidence was discovered my attorney would probably easily have it suppressed in a 1538.5 PC hearing. Furthermore, if it was happening more than once or widespread I'd be consulting John Burris's law office about filing a civil rights violation against the agency as it likely violates the U.S and California Constituion. It would be nice seeing Burris on my side for once.

Gutwrench said:

I can make a distinction between the government back-dooring the masses mobile phones and an individual posting their vital personal information on a public forum. For the record, I don't like the government doing this if it violates existing law, and if it doesn't I'd likely support changing the law. However I do not fear the government stealing my identity and diverting my finances as I do someone in the general public anywhere in the world. The U.S government has everything they need to do so already. Hence my tongue-in-cheek comment that I fear more from a "hero" type person like Snowden running off to China or Russia with my info.



Assuming in your scenario the stop, detention, and search was illegal, then nope it's not okay. And if it happened in California and any incriminating evidence was discovered my attorney would probably easily have it suppressed in a 1538.5 PC hearing. Furthermore, if it was happening more than once or widespread I'd be consulting John Burris's law office about filing a civil rights violation against the agency as it likely violates the U.S and California Constituion. It would be nice seeing Burris on my side for once.

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I don't really see how the NSAs actions are constitutional as per the 4th amendment...

Eraserhead said:

I don't really see how the NSAs actions are constitutional as per the 4th amendment...

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I don't either, but I'm not familiar enough with this issue yet.

Eraserhead said:

I don't really see how the NSAs actions are constitutional as per the 4th amendment...

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Officially, they are. They're only grabbing data most people have no "expectation of privacy" on. Like if you call your parents, your girlfriend, and top it off with a call to your Aunt Mildred, the metadata for all these phonecalls can be observed by your telco. Since you're aware to a point that at a 3rd party knows who your calling and when, the NSA considers that enough of a justification to collect that data.

It's stretched to the point of breaking, but it apparently works well enough for the courts to consider it constitutional. It's one of those "follows the letter of the law, if not the spirit" situations.

Though there is a loophole around that. Any encrypted data, even data sent over a public network, has an inherent expectation of privacy, since you went through the effort to keep it from prying eyes. So the NSA shouldn't be allowed to crack through any encryptions without a warrant. Thing is, how do you encrypt phonecalls?

Renzatic said:

Officially, they are. They're only grabbing data most people have no "expectation of privacy" on.

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Sorry I try to avoid playing Google/Internet attorney but I think this is yet to be determined. I'm only vaguely familiar with the legal theory your post at least attempts to refer to, but despite not knowing how back door access is made I could see the scope of the invasion potentially exceeds your example. I imagine the government tracking calls is different than warrantlessly physically accessing and snooping a device.

Gutwrench said:

Sorry I try to avoid playing Google/Internet attorney but I think this is yet to be determined. I'm only vaguely familiar with the legal theory your post at least attempts to refer to, but since I don't know how back door access is made but I could see the scope potentially exceeds your example. I imagine the government tracking calls is different than warrantlessly physically accessing and snooping a device.

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It's been determined to be legal. Though like I said, while it fits the barebones legal definition of expectations of privacy, it's not exactly...for lack of a better word...kosher. Like if I'm having a conversation with you in a public park, sitting on a public bench, speaking in a normal tone of voice, someone sitting on the bench next to us could easily hear our conversation, take pictures of us, then post it and what we talked about up on the internet later. It'd be legal, because we don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that park.

But it's kind of a creepy thing to do. Yeah, the guy has the right, but...jesus.

The NSA is working off this same idea, that we don't have an expectation of privacy over our raw metadata while using an open network administered by a neutral service provider that's actively aware of everything we do on it. By a few good lawyer arguments, it's been found legal.

And the backdoor thing? Yeah, that's another hinky, but ultimately legal bit. Since they're only putting their foot in the door, but not actively invading your privacy until they have a good legal reason to do so, they can get away with it.

It's all 4th amendment proof, but the NSA is toeing the very edge of it with everything they do.

Renzatic said:

It's been determined to be legal. Though like I said, while it fits the barebones legal definition of expectations of privacy, it's not exactly...for lack of a better word...kosher. Like if I'm having a conversation with you in a public park, sitting on a public bench, speaking in a normal tone of voice, someone sitting on the bench next to us could easily hear our conversation, take pictures of us, then post it and what we talked about up on the internet later. It'd be legal, because we don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that park.

But it's kind of a creepy thing to do. Yeah, the guy has the right, but...jesus.

The NSA is working off this same idea, that we don't have an expectation of privacy over our raw metadata while using an open network administered by a neutral service provider that's actively aware of everything we do on it. By a few good lawyer arguments, it's been found legal.

And the backdoor thing? Yeah, that's another hinky, but ultimately legal bit. Since they're only putting their foot in the door, but not actively invading your privacy until they have a good legal reason to do so, they can get away with it.

It's all 4th amendment proof, but the NSA is toeing the very edge of it with everything they do.

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I apologize but can you tell me what and how the NSA is gathering the information you are claiming we have no expectation of privacy over? What exactly do you understand the NSA is doing and how are they accomplishing it? I haven't actually read this yet but I haven't looked real hard. Can you please post it with specificity?

Compilation of certain metadata is one thing but it's quite a different matter to physically access and snoop a device without a warrant or intercept wireless signals. Keep in mind the government still needs a warrant to tap a call whether it's a landline or a wireless device.

As for your park example, I'm very familiar with the plain view doctrine and the case law limitations of it.

Gutwrench said:

... Keep in mind the government still needs a warrant to tap a call whether it's a landline or a wireless device.

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We now know that is not true, because DOJ officials have acknowledged that the NSA has engaged in "overcollection" of domestic communications in excess of the FISA court's authority.

You can read the whole sorted tale at: NSA warrantless surveillance (2001–07)

localoid said:

We now know that is not true, because DOJ officials have acknowledged that the NSA has engaged in "overcollection" of domestic communications in excess of the FISA court's authority.

You can read the whole sorted tale at: NSA warrantless surveillance (2001–07)

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Thanks I'll read up. I've been out of the business for a few years but as far as I know (knew) wiretap for content, such as recording a landline or wireless telephonic conversation, still requires a warrant. Metadata collection of data for example telephone number, location, time, and duration of a call is a different matter. Nonetheless if I am behind times and this has changed I apologize and will say thank you for info.

marine610610 said:

I don't believe for a second this was a surprise to Apple. It was probably one of those "ok we'll help you but if the public finds out we don't know anything" deals. I'm sure Apple could release an update and modify their systems to thwart this, why isn't a promise of such action forthcoming?

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If Apple, as a publicly traded company, was found to be lying in a public statement like this, someone would go to jail for this.

And I don't know what statement you have been reading, but here is what Apple says: "We care deeply about our customers’ privacy and security. Our team is continuously working to make our products even more secure, and we make it easy for customers to keep their software up to date with the latest advancements. Whenever we hear about attempts to undermine Apple’s industry-leading security, we thoroughly investigate and take appropriate steps to protect our customers. We will continue to use our resources to stay ahead of malicious hackers and defend our customers from security attacks, regardless of who’s behind them."

LV426 said:

In what way does it miss the mark?

Those comments were written in direct response to someone's assertion that if you've got nothing to hide, you don't have a problem.

The points above show that everyone has plenty of things to hide, so the argument "if you've nothing to hide..." falls at the first hurdle.

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Would you dare telling us what you honestly think about the TSA if they were given a printout of your opinion, together with your name, if you had to go on a flight the ext day or week? I don't think so.

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DesertEagle said:

My guess is that the NSA got a court-order to force Apple to write this BS, the same way they forced Lavabit to keep quiet about the reason for its sudden shut-down.

So yes, Apple are lying, but we cannot really blame them. I think.

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Please, that's nonsense. There is no way to force a company to _lie_ to its customers. They can be forced to keep quiet about something. They cannot be forced to lie. If Apple says nothing, that would be highly suspicious. If Apple says something, it is either true or someone can go to jail for it.

gnasher729 said:

Would you dare telling us what you honestly think about the TSA if they were given a printout of your opinion, together with your name, if you had to go on a flight the ext day or week? I don't think so.

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Please, that's nonsense. There is no way to force a company to _lie_ to its customers. They can be forced to keep quiet about something. They cannot be forced to lie. If Apple says nothing, that would be highly suspicious. If Apple says something, it is either true or someone can go to jail for it.

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I hardly doubt apple would go to jail for the governments bidding...

Apple makes the daft decision to lie and claim they knew nothing about it. Just like that amateur golfer in the big whitewashed house. Lying is their truth. Sad but oh so fashionable. Repeat the lies often enough and the masses will love you.

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Eraserhead said:

I hardly doubt apple would go to jail for the governments bidding...

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It's refreshing to read an entry from someone who truly gets it.

Eraserhead said:

I hardly doubt apple would go to jail for the governments bidding...

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Not to mention how crowded our prisons are with corporate thieves.

sixrom said:

Apple makes the daft decision to lie and claim they knew nothing about it. Just like that amateur golfer in the big whitewashed house. Lying is their truth. Sad but oh so fashionable. Repeat the lies often enough and the masses will love you.

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It's refreshing to read an entry from someone who truly gets it.

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It's amazing how the level of stupidity here just keeps increasing. Gnasher is absolutely right. Apple is a publicly traded company. If at some point they have collaborated with any party in compromising their products and it would become public, than they would suffer a drastic loss in sales, lawsuits from consumers all over the world, lawsuits from all their investors. Apple's leadership that would have been involved with this would go to jail.

I'm still wondering how everyone just jumped to the conclusion that Apple would be willingly involved with this, while the only thing we have heard or seen are slides saying that cellphones can be corrupted by tampering. Again: there is nothing remotely implicating or suggesting that Apple, Google or whichever producer is conspiring with the NSA to corrupt their devices.

Gutwrench said:

I apologize but can you tell me what and how the NSA is gathering the information you are claiming we have no expectation of privacy over? What exactly do you understand the NSA is doing and how are they accomplishing it? I haven't actually read this yet but I haven't looked real hard. Can you please post it with specificity?

Compilation of certain metadata is one thing but it's quite a different matter to physically access and snoop a device without a warrant or intercept wireless signals. Keep in mind the government still needs a warrant to tap a call whether it's a landline or a wireless device.

As for your park example, I'm very familiar with the plain view doctrine and the case law limitations of it.

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I'm not saying we have no expectation of privacy over the info the NSA is collecting. I'm not even agreeing that that's good enough. What I'm saying is that's how they were able to justify it to the courts.

Course that's only for collecting metadata and other dark grey area bits of floating info. The wireless intercepts and physical hacks are another matter entirely. The only thing I think of that keeps it from being an outright violation of privacy is what I said before, that they have the systems in place, but don't actively collect from them unless they have a warrant. Even that's pushing it, though it might be just enough for them to get away with it.

peterdevries said:

It's amazing how the level of stupidity here just keeps increasing. Gnasher is absolutely right. Apple is a publicly traded company. If at some point they have collaborated with any party in compromising their products and it would become public, than they would suffer a drastic loss in sales, lawsuits from consumers all over the world, lawsuits from all their investors. Apple's leadership that would have been involved with this would go to jail.

I'm still wondering how everyone just jumped to the conclusion that Apple would be willingly involved with this, while the only thing we have heard or seen are slides saying that cellphones can be corrupted by tampering. Again: there is nothing remotely implicating or suggesting that Apple, Google or whichever producer is conspiring with the NSA to corrupt their devices.

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You mean like the publically traded Wall Street banks that perform illegal activities daily at the government's bidding but are never prosecuted? Let's not be so naive.

Dmunjal said:

You mean like the publically traded Wall Street banks that perform illegal activities daily at the government's bidding but are never prosecuted? Let's not be so naive.

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Which Wall Street bank performed illegal activities at the government's bidding?

And how does that (even if it were true) confirm that Apple is involved with the NSA?

I'm not naive. I base my views on facts, and I have not seen a single piece of actual fact in this whole discussion. With the amount of nonsense, fabrication and baseless assumption going on here I would not be surprised if aliens and zodiac signs are next in these scenarios.