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Dmunjal

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2010
1,533
1,542
Which Wall Street bank performed illegal activities at the government's bidding?

And how does that (even if it were true) confirm that Apple is involved with the NSA?

I'm not naive. I base my views on facts, and I have not seen a single piece of actual fact in this whole discussion. With the amount of nonsense, fabrication and baseless assumption going on here I would not be surprised if aliens and zodiac signs are next in these scenarios.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article41840.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg. And when they get caught, it's a minor slap on the wrist.

Read up on how the Feds manipulate the oil, commodities, and even equity markets through the proxies at the banks.

Added source :

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/b...-to-banks-pure-gold.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&

Not saying that Apple is equivalent. But they could easily deny any wrongdoing while participating in NSA activities.
 
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seamer

macrumors 6502
Jul 24, 2009
426
164
How many conspiracy theories turn out to be reality? Not many, but this is one of them...like the AT&T room.

That's kind of what I was getting at. It's amazing how often stories are just overlooked until too late, whether they are based in reality or too many missed doses.
 

peterdevries

macrumors 68040
Feb 22, 2008
3,146
1,135
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article41840.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg. And when they get caught, it's a minor slap on the wrist.

Read up on how the Feds manipulate the oil, commodities, and even equity markets through the proxies at the banks.

Added source :

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/b...-to-banks-pure-gold.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&

Not saying that Apple is equivalent. But they could easily deny any wrongdoing while participating in NSA activities.

Certainly interesting, but still you are making a large error in argumentation. The Example of MBS is one of banks exploiting a lack of oversight by the authorities. The aluminium shuffling example you brought in is essentially the same. The banks are doing something that is essentially legal but entirely unethical, and therefore violates their code of conduct. In the case of the MBS, they have been taken to court and have paid for it (although only marginally).

What people (including you) are accusing Apple of is entirely different and cannot be compared to these examples at all. Here a government agency for all intents and purposes went outside the books and started illegal activity on its own. It developed technology to monitor every single person on this planet through the technology we use on a daily basis. That is so far the only proof that we have, although even that could be disputed because no one has found a device on which the technology is actually installed. They could just be a set of slides made by a smart guy like there are many on this board.

Where most of you are going wrong is that you automatically assume that because the government is bad and banks are bad, that Apple, Google and other companies that produces the hackable technology are also bad. That they have willingly or unwillingly cooperated with the illegal practices of the NSA.
  • There is not even circumstantial evidence or indications that this is or even needs to be the case. The NSA could buy large quantities of Apple's products, modify them and sell them on the secondary market (eBay etc). If you are the NSA and are involved in illegal and highly sensitive practices, would you really want to involve a corporation with several tens of thousands if employees in these practices? Doesn't that constitute a major risk to your activities?
  • It would be a death sentence for a company involved in this. Especially Apple, which is under pressure of losing market share in most of its major markets. Customers are switching more easily these days, and the moment Apple is proven to be involved with this is the day most of these will switch. It would mean Apple would likely follow Blackberry, and it would quickly be bought out for its patents.

So again. That other companies or parts of the government are engaged in illegal activities doesn't automatically implicate Apple or any other producer of cellphones. In addition, the examples that many people here provide are not even remotely comparable or indicative that something is going on in this case.
 
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Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
Which Wall Street bank performed illegal activities at the government's bidding?

And how does that (even if it were true) confirm that Apple is involved with the NSA?

I'm not naive. I base my views on facts, and I have not seen a single piece of actual fact in this whole discussion. With the amount of nonsense, fabrication and baseless assumption going on here I would not be surprised if aliens and zodiac signs are next in these scenarios.

They didn't do the governments bidding. But still none of them are in jail.
 

peterdevries

macrumors 68040
Feb 22, 2008
3,146
1,135
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
They didn't do the governments bidding. But still none of them are in jail.

Sure, no dispute there, but I still fail to see how that is in any way connected to this situation. Let me sum up what is happening in this thread:

  1. A number of NSA slides has surfaced that detail technical procedures to hack into communication devices. (this is the only piece of real evidence that there is)
  2. Because the devices need to be physically hacked, it is automatically assumed that Apple needs to have been involved. (it is much more logical that the NSA would buy them on the market and sell them on eBay or return them to Apple (if you read the slides you will notice that the hacks survive restore procedures). Why the need to involve Apple?)
  3. Because banks and other corporations have exploited the law or performed illegal activities it is logical that Apple is doing this also.
  4. Apple is denying involvement, so it MUST be involved.
  5. Not all conspiracy theories are true, but some are, therefore this one must be true also (see a few posts above for this gem).

Are so many of you really buying into that logic? Incredible...
 
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gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Apple is denying involvement, so it MUST be involved.

That's the most stupid one. Fact: There are laws that may prevent Apple to give out certain information. Fact: There is _no_ law that could force Apple to lie. On the contrary, there _are_ laws that make it illegal for a publicly traded company like Apple to lie about certain things.

If Apple didn't say anything about involvement, when it is clearly in their interest to make the world think they are not involved, then you could quite reasonably conclude they were involved. But not the other way round.

----------

I hardly doubt apple would go to jail for the governments bidding...

Someone would go to jail for lying to the public, including Apple's investors. It is highly illegal to lie about something that would affect the share price to investors.
 

Jedi Master

macrumors regular
I wish you got it

Sure, no dispute there, but I still fail to see how that is in any way connected to this situation. Let me sum up what is happening in this thread:

  1. A number of NSA slides has surfaced that detail technical procedures to hack into communication devices. (this is the only piece of real evidence that there is)
  2. Because the devices need to be physically hacked, it is automatically assumed that Apple needs to have been involved. (it is much more logical that the NSA would buy them on the market and sell them on eBay or return them to Apple (if you read the slides you will notice that the hacks survive restore procedures). Why the need to involve Apple?)
  3. Because banks and other corporations have exploited the law or performed illegal activities it is logical that Apple is doing this also.
  4. Apple is denying involvement, so it MUST be involved.
  5. Not all conspiracy theories are true, but some are, therefore this one must be true also (see a few posts above for this gem).

Are so many of you really buying into that logic? Incredible...


You seem like a bright guy.
Apple willingly involved, no way. Involved with out doubt. Could they say they were "suggested" to go along, sure. But see would happen, jail lost wealth, stock drop.

It was more like an offer they couldn't refuse.

They have a get out of jail card for this. If they choose to be honest well that rarely turns out well, does it.

Besides it's all about jobs.

Besides this too shall pass
 

Dmunjal

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2010
1,533
1,542
You seem like a bright guy.
Apple willingly involved, no way. Involved with out doubt. Could they say they were "suggested" to go along, sure. But see would happen, jail lost wealth, stock drop.

It was more like an offer they couldn't refuse.

They have a get out of jail card foe this. If they choose to be honest well that rarely turns out well, does it.

Besides it's all about jobs.

If you remember the financial crisis in 2008, there were some similar circumstances.

Banks were going under but the bigger banks were "coerced" by Treasury to buy the smaller ones to save the system. In exchange, the CEOs got a get-out-of-jail-free card as well as financial backing.

Apple is not a bank and this isn't 2008. But it does show the power of the US government and how far it will go to get what it needs.

I see no way Apple could refuse the NSA in this instance.
 

Music_Producer

macrumors 68000
Sep 25, 2004
1,633
18
If you've got nothing to hide, what's the problem? This day and age, what's wrong with eyes and ears?

It's one thing to install surveillance cameras on the streets, outside my house, public places, etc - but completely different if they come *inside* my home and put one up. See the difference?
 

Jedi Master

macrumors regular
Please report to your local Police Station and submit your DNA and fingerprints

Please report to your local Police Station and submit your DNA and fingerprints because hour one of the good guys with nothing to hide.


And remember its for your safety.


This all started a long, long time ago in a place not far away called the USA
 

Shrink

macrumors G3
Feb 26, 2011
8,929
1,727
New England, USA
You seem like a bright guy.
Apple willingly involved, no way. Involved with out doubt. Could they say they were "suggested" to go along, sure. But see would happen, jail lost wealth, stock drop.

It was more like an offer they couldn't refuse.

They have a get out of jail card for this. If they choose to be honest well that rarely turns out well, does it.

Besides it's all about jobs.

Besides this too shall pass

Nah...he never would have allowed it!
 

sixrom

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2013
709
1
It's amazing how the level of stupidity here just keeps increasing. Gnasher is absolutely right. Apple is a publicly traded company. If at some point they have collaborated with any party in compromising their products and it would become public, than they would suffer a drastic loss in sales, lawsuits from consumers all over the world, lawsuits from all their investors. Apple's leadership that would have been involved with this would go to jail.

I'm still wondering how everyone just jumped to the conclusion that Apple would be willingly involved with this, while the only thing we have heard or seen are slides saying that cellphones can be corrupted by tampering. Again: there is nothing remotely implicating or suggesting that Apple, Google or whichever producer is conspiring with the NSA to corrupt their devices.

It's quite obvious to the well read.

For those too busy playing with one of the many fart apps that litter the Apple Ecosystem, being uniformed is the norm in that demographic.
 

peterdevries

macrumors 68040
Feb 22, 2008
3,146
1,135
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
It was more like an offer they couldn't refuse.

I see no way Apple could refuse the NSA in this instance.

Show us all -please- where you got the knowledge that the NSA has approached Apple. I will eat all my previous words if you can provide one little piece of evidence or information that would indicate that this is the case.

edit to make myself absolutely clear: things like "it's obvious" or "it's logical" doesn't constitute evidence...
 

Dmunjal

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2010
1,533
1,542
Show us all -please- where you got the knowledge that the NSA has approached Apple. I will eat all my previous words if you can provide one little piece of evidence or information that would indicate that this is the case.

You must believe that all human events and knowledge are always completely documented?

People said there was no way that the NSA was operating illegally until Snowden showed it. People denied Iran-Contra and Fast and Furious, too.

Just because someone hasn't uncovered it doesn't mean it isn't happening. But the US government has a checkered history in this area.

I never said I KNOW Apple is doing it. But I refute the notion that Apple officers would go to jail by willfully participating in this program with the NSA. Like in other examples, they may not have a choice.
 

peterdevries

macrumors 68040
Feb 22, 2008
3,146
1,135
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
You must believe that all human events and knowledge are always completely documented?

You had better have documented proof if you accuse someone of illegal practices. Do you know what slander is?

People said there was no way that the NSA was operating illegally until Snowden showed it. People denied Iran-Contra and Fast and Furious, too.

Just because someone hasn't uncovered it doesn't mean it isn't happening. But the US government has a checkered history in this area.

No-one here disputes that the NSA is involved in illegal practices.

I never said I KNOW Apple is doing it. But I refute the notion that Apple officers would go to jail by willfully participating in this program with the NSA. Like in other examples, they may not have a choice.

Where do you get the notion that Apple is involved with this? Where does is say that the NSA needs Apple to do their thing? Just because the NSA develops technology to exploit Apple products in no way implicates that Apple MUST be involved. So, again. Why do you think Apple is involved? You still are not able to come up with anything than speculation that is not even based on a tiny shred of evidence or even sensible and logic thinking for that matter (remember the public denial of Apple and the implication for the company if they turned out to be lying).
 

Dmunjal

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2010
1,533
1,542
You had better have documented proof if you accuse someone of illegal practices. Do you know what slander is?



No-one here disputes that the NSA is involved in illegal practices.



Where do you get the notion that Apple is involved with this? Where does is say that the NSA needs Apple to do their thing? Just because the NSA develops technology to exploit Apple products in no way implicates that Apple MUST be involved. So, again. Why do you think Apple is involved? You still are not able to come up with anything than speculation that is not even based on a tiny shred of evidence or even sensible and logic thinking for that matter (remember the public denial of Apple and the implication for the company if they turned out to be lying).

I never said that Apple is involved. What I'm saying is Apple saying that they aren't isn't 100% proof that they aren't.

I worked for a networking company where the government was involved in how we handled encryption. We could never admit to being involved and denied any involvement publicly.
 

Shrink

macrumors G3
Feb 26, 2011
8,929
1,727
New England, USA
The only thing Apple could say that would be completely believed by all is that they were complicit with NSA.

Denial will only be believed by some, and not by others. Denial is a no win response...even if it's true.
 

peterdevries

macrumors 68040
Feb 22, 2008
3,146
1,135
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
I never said that Apple is involved. What I'm saying is Apple saying that they aren't isn't 100% proof that they aren't.

I agree, but a denial is more proof that there ISN'T something going on than that there IS. We have been discussing back and forth now for I don't know how many posts. You know you were implying that Apple was wilfully collaborating, otherwise you would have corrected me on my first reply to your posts.

I worked for a networking company where the government was involved in how we handled encryption. We could never admit to being involved and denied any involvement publicly.

You probably didn't talk about these things because they were legal, right? How long do you think illegal involvement of NSA at Apple would stay a secret?
 

Dmunjal

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2010
1,533
1,542
I agree, but a denial is more proof that there ISN'T something going on than that there IS. We have been discussing back and forth now for I don't know how many posts. You know you were implying that Apple was wilfully collaborating, otherwise you would have corrected me on my first reply to your posts.



You probably didn't talk about these things because they were legal, right? How long do you think illegal involvement of NSA at Apple would stay a secret?

Has it been ruled that what NSA is doing is actually illegal yet? Seems they're saying that it still is and a judge has ruled it is.

I think that some on this board believe Apple is different than any other US company. Some felt the same way about Google and their "Do no harm" motto. I believe they are all US companies first and have to follow the direction of the US government ahead of its customers. The service providers went down the same road. History shows that the government has more power than any one company or CEO in these situations.
 

Jedi Master

macrumors regular
Presumption of Innocence

You had better have documented proof if you accuse someone of illegal practices. Do you know what slander is?



No-one here disputes that the NSA is involved in illegal practices.



Where do you get the notion that Apple is involved with this? Where does is say that the NSA needs Apple to do their thing? Just because the NSA develops technology to exploit Apple products in no way implicates that Apple MUST be involved. So, again. Why do you think Apple is involved? You still are not able to come up with anything than speculation that is not even based on a tiny shred of evidence or even sensible and logic thinking for that matter (remember the public denial of Apple and the implication for the company if they turned out to be lying).

Presumption of Innocence how sweet.

Same thing happens if they came clean the other day.

Give it time.

The long arm of the selective law.

While we wait we have a guy who stole some questionable information sitting in Russia..... Seems like a good place for him to be.

Hard copy proof one way or the other will come too late.

Telco's, banks, accounting firms, Uncle Sam is a Partner for all.
 
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