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Mr. Buzzcut

macrumors 65816
Jul 25, 2011
1,037
488
Ohio
Books do NOT have an infinite lifespan. Especially textbooks. They will easily be physically destroyed in the same 3-5 years as that iPad. Plus their contents, depending on the subject matter, can 'expire' within months. In some cases, textbooks are outdated by the time they are delivered to students. The software on the other hand can be content updated every year and likely updated for new versions of iOS rather easily depending on the basic structure since Apple doesn't rewrite iOS a la Mac OS 9 to X every year

Something must have changed in the years since I was in school. I often worked from textbooks decades old. I had to cover the when I received them and pay the school for a new one if I damaged it. Once I got to college, they made it a point to change editions every year so used books were near worthless. But I challenge you to find the differences between editions of a math textbook. Most students don't get into most subjects deep enough to need yearly revisions. To make things worse, teachers seem to have a bad habit of using very little of a textbook. Sometimes they just assign some of the problems after a lecture. Language and literature fare a bit better.

I like the idea of leveraging technology but it should be much more than digital textbooks. Teachers should have access to libraries do digital content that they can weave together for their lessons. And they should be able to track how much time each student is spending on it and how we'll they retain it later. There are so many possibilities that can help keep smart kids engaged and get the not so smart ones more help to keep them from giving up and getting left behind.

This is extremely complex and I'm not sure it has been done yet on any scale. Right now it seems like a money grab without much additional value for students or teachers.
 

Solomani

macrumors 601
Sep 25, 2012
4,785
10,477
Slapfish, North Carolina
On average public schools have to spend about $15K per student. For a city the size of LA, $1B over several years isn't a tremendous amount of money. The question is, is it a wise expenditure and is there an actual plan of use behind the purchase.

It's a wise expenditure IF the cost of equipping students with iPads and digital books (digital curricula) ends up costing less than the expense of traditional schoolbooks. But whether or not the LA Unified did adequate ROI research prior to this deal… that's a good question.

Of course many other factors have to be considered for overall "cost". Things like how much the district will pay annually for iPad/MacBook tech support, etc. And things like how much of a hit they expect from annual losses from "lost/stolen" student iPads. With the staggering size of hundreds of thousands of students in the district, it is reasonable to expect that some of those iPads will be lost/stolen/accidental-damage every year.
 

davey1107

macrumors newbie
Sep 27, 2011
28
0
Yeah, given that the bond measure was for school infrastructure and their buildings are crumbling, this is a good move. Also doesn't help that the devices were a trojan horse to get a specific educational publisher's products into the hands of students (at a great cost, of course).

They were also paying $800/iPad, which is just disgusting.

I live in LA and voted on the bond measure, and I support the iPad pilot program. The bond specified how funds were to be used - they cannot be used for teachers, building repairs or maintenance or many other things...things which are needed and good, but things which the voters did not approve funding for through this measure. The state of California also had a $50 billion bond measure pass around the same time for school roofs.

The unit cost...which some have griped about...represents the difference in buying an off-the-shelf consumer machine, and a system set up for a specific use, with a support package, and with specific software. These units were modified, adding to their cost but also adding to their functionality. If you've ever worked tech support, this isn't uncommon nor outrageous. At my last company our office paid $150 per month for each IBM system in use...systems that would cost $500-$1000 to purchase off the shelf at best buy. The cost there incorporated hardware, support, software, integration solutions, VPN solutions, etc.

----------

Something must have changed in the years since I was in school. I often worked from textbooks decades old. I had to cover the when I received them and pay the school for a new one if I damaged it. Once I got to college, they made it a point to change editions every year so used books were near worthless. But I challenge you to find the differences between editions of a math textbook. Most students don't get into most subjects deep enough to need yearly revisions. To make things worse, teachers seem to have a bad habit of using very little of a textbook. Sometimes they just assign some of the problems after a lecture. Language and literature fare a bit better.

I like the idea of leveraging technology but it should be much more than digital textbooks. Teachers should have access to libraries do digital content that they can weave together for their lessons. And they should be able to track how much time each student is spending on it and how we'll they retain it later. There are so many possibilities that can help keep smart kids engaged and get the not so smart ones more help to keep them from giving up and getting left behind.

This is extremely complex and I'm not sure it has been done yet on any scale. Right now it seems like a money grab without much additional value for students or teachers.

Well, the voters, teachers, administrators and students of Los Angeles disagree with you. We weighed in on this, it was a voter-approved bond, and for two years it was open for public debate. We definitely considered your "in my day I walked In the rain..." Argument, but in the end opted to listen to our teachers, most of whom hold masters degrees or higher in education and had a solid plan for implementing the technology into new teaching techniques.
 

Solomani

macrumors 601
Sep 25, 2012
4,785
10,477
Slapfish, North Carolina
I live in LA and voted on the bond measure, and I support the iPad pilot program. The bond specified how funds were to be used - they cannot be used for teachers, building repairs or maintenance or many other things...things which are needed and good, but things which the voters did not approve funding for through this measure. The state of California also had a $50 billion bond measure pass around the same time for school roofs.

The unit cost...which some have griped about...represents the difference in buying an off-the-shelf consumer machine, and a system set up for a specific use, with a support package, and with specific software. These units were modified, adding to their cost but also adding to their functionality. If you've ever worked tech support, this isn't uncommon nor outrageous. At my last company our office paid $150 per month for each IBM system in use...systems that would cost $500-$1000 to purchase off the shelf at best buy. The cost there incorporated hardware, support, software, integration solutions, VPN solutions, etc.

----------



Well, the voters, teachers, administrators and students of Los Angeles disagree with you. We weighed in on this, it was a voter-approved bond, and for two years it was open for public debate. We definitely considered your "in my day I walked In the rain..." Argument, but in the end opted to listen to our teachers, most of whom hold masters degrees or higher in education and had a solid plan for implementing the technology into new teaching techniques.

Most of the average MacRumors posters mouthing off here (myself included :) ) do not hold any sort of teaching credentials nor any experience working in a public school system. I'm willing to bet that the majority of these critics are not even residents of California (I lived in SoCal, but not necessarily in the L.A. Unified district region).

It's good to know that this plan was debated for 2 years in the greater L.A. metro and L.A. Unified area before it was voted on for approval. It would have been grossly negligent otherwise.
 
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japanime

macrumors 68030
Feb 27, 2006
2,916
4,844
Japan
Professional sports teams with money from seasons passes, tickets, accessories, toys, clothing, games, overpriced food/alcohol, etc and public schools that are paid for with taxes are two completely different things

As others have pointed out, you are so very wrong in your implication that professional sports teams are entirely consumer-funded.

Don't get me wrong. I love professional sports just as much as the next person. But I'm not oblivious to the fact that these teams enjoy:

a) Millions of dollars in local and state tax incentives and breaks.

b) State-of-the-art, taxpayer-funded stadiums and arenas.

c) A share of revenue from fees charged at stadium parking lots (the access to which is provided via taxpayer-funded roads and mass-transit systems).

d) Lease agreements whose economic benefits to teams far outweigh the economic benefits to the communities that host the teams.

e) Lobbying efforts conducted on their behalf — free of charge — by publicly elected officials.

The list goes on.

If you doubt what I'm telling you, I encourage you to read about the financial shenanigans involving the Miami Marlins and the Sacramento Kings. Those are but two examples in a rich (pun intended) history of professional sports teams sucking taxpayers dry.


Holy non sequitur batman!

Pro sports teams make far more than they spend. It's called capitalism. When schools start bringing in the money they spend (or more) rather than utilizing tax dollars and bonds, then they can spend whatever they want. Until then, they need to spend responsibly.

Read my points above and you might have a better understanding, Boy Wonder.

I like you guys can't tell the difference between public money and disposable income

Thank you for proving my original point: We need to spend more money on education.
 
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fleabite

macrumors member
Jul 27, 2010
48
20
Um... you seem unaware of the cost of other things schools buy that they no longer need to buy, IE, textbooks (did you happen to go to college where you had to actually buy them yourself? One semester can easily go over $800 in books. I think one semester I ended up spending $1050 on books,) and computers.

I highly doubt there will be savings by ditching books. How much of a $150 textbook do you think is printing? No more than 15%, I'm sure. You're paying for copyrighted material even if you go digital. Plus, it's gonna get pretty expensive when those iPads start getting dropped/stolen/left on the bus.

I'm a little bitter because our school district voted themselves a property tax increase (no vote of the people. The great state of New Mexico gave them that stupid power!) to buy iPads for our students. Although my home is valued a little above the median, my increased tax is enough to pay for a half an iPad every year :mad:

And, yes, I have school-age kids.

I should add, that I am supportive of the need to invest more in New Mexico schools. We're not doing very well, as it stands. I would have no complaints if this money was earmarked for teacher salaries, teacher education, special education, and improved school meals. It seems you should tackle the basics first.
 
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ctone

macrumors regular
Nov 28, 2006
103
4
This proposal has been wrong on so many levels, it is infuriating. Even if you think that iPads are a great idea for all the kids (which I don't - I think they should have what most people use for work - Windows machines or even Mac's, so they will learn real world work skills), enough was screwed up that this should have been stopped long ago:

- First, the construction bond measure was passed because the voters who will be paying for it were willing to pay extra to fix the poor condition of the schools in the area, and they are in fact, terrible conditions (with the possible exception of the $578 million RFK Community School - the nation's most expensive school), but this money will not be used for its intended and promised purpose for construction or repairs to make the schools safer and cleaner.


- there was (and probably still is) no plan for what happens if the iPad gets lost, stolen, or not returned. Will the students or their parents get billed for it? Not likely. So a lot have already gone missing, and a lot more will go missing.

- the school board forgot that the state tests require a physical keyboard, so they had to do an emergency allocation of additional money for external keyboards for all of the iPads (expensive bluetooth ones perhaps?)

- the software is essentially still in development, unproven, but they are paying full price and the license is only good for 3 years.

- by the time they got everything set to go, a new iPad model was out, and they were going to just buy the outdated ones at the full price until the whistle got blown again.

- the school board refused to reappoint a critic of the iPad program to the committee that oversees the bond money to make sure that no opposing voices would be heard and they could move along unopposed. A massive public outcry eventually forced them to reappoint him.

- on an early test run at a school, the students were able to immediately unblock the district installed security software and get full internet and app access.

and on and on.
 

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
Yes. Let's bring back the abacus. Who needs enhanced tools to improve results, lessen overall cost, and make learning interactive? We should revert to stone tools and carrier-pigeons too.

Woah that's high tech.
We have 10 fingers and use a base 10 decimal system (SI system), well most of the world does. So 10 fingers work out great. And use your toes for the 10's hundreds etc etc.
 

Chupa Chupa

macrumors G5
Jul 16, 2002
14,835
7,396
It's a wise expenditure IF the cost of equipping students with iPads and digital books (digital curricula) ends up costing less than the expense of traditional schoolbooks. But whether or not the LA Unified did adequate ROI research prior to this deal… that's a good question.

Of course many other factors have to be considered for overall "cost". Things like how much the district will pay annually for iPad/MacBook tech support, etc. And things like how much of a hit they expect from annual losses from "lost/stolen" student iPads. With the staggering size of hundreds of thousands of students in the district, it is reasonable to expect that some of those iPads will be lost/stolen/accidental-damage every year.

Right, I think the school system bosses went into this purchases like, "hey iPads are hip right now, let's buy one for everyone and it will look like we are cutting edge. We can figure out how to implement them into the curriculum later.... Typical cart before the horse mentality of large organizations. Many people were upset with the purchase because the school system didn't really have a clear plan of use. And honestly before the purchase was made it should have run a couple pilot programs, not just dive in head first.
 

gr8hii

macrumors member
Mar 23, 2011
43
29
And... It's been halted (thankfully):

http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-deasy-ipads-20140826-story.html
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
Wall St doesn't have that type of leverage

LAUSD is the one that wrote every word of the contract, not Apple or Pearson. They're the ones who ID'd a problem that had to be solved by spending taxpayer money and put the contract out for bid. Since they spend taxpayer money LAUSD is also the one who has the public trust and it's their obligation to not get seduced and properly vet their contracts.

I do contract admin for a municipality and have 2 contracts out for bid right now. If the winning bidder's deliverables don't meet my expectations or the project that requires the deliverables fail, it's my fault not theirs, because I'm the one who specifies the terms.

But don't you get influenced by the for profit organizations when they come to meet with you to peddle their equipment? That is why the companies set up their informational meetings and drop off the slick brochures.
It may be LAUSD's responsibility to not get seduced as you say, but some responsibility should remain with the seducer.
 

Liquorpuki

macrumors 68020
Jun 18, 2009
2,286
8
City of Angels
But don't you get influenced by the for profit organizations when they come to meet with you to peddle their equipment? That is why the companies set up their informational meetings and drop off the slick brochures.
It may be LAUSD's responsibility to not get seduced as you say, but some responsibility should remain with the seducer.

Good sales pitches will always be persuasive but we're not obligated to listen or even invite them in the building.

I get what you're saying about it being unethical when a company does whatever it can to make a profit off the school system, but they really have no leverage. There are tons of red tape that have to be navigated through to put a contract of this size out for bid and award it and the public entity dictates the terms.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
Good sales pitches will always be persuasive but we're not obligated to listen or even invite them in the building.

I get what you're saying about it being unethical when a company does whatever it can to make a profit off the school system, but they really have no leverage. There are tons of red tape that have to be navigated through to put a contract of this size out for bid and award it and the public entity dictates the terms.

I hear you. But they are trying. The Charter school movement is one end around move. Get for profit individuals in charge of the schools and then you've got one less gatekeeper to work through.

This contract was huge. So it was publicly discussed and I remember when it was awarded. It was probably a huge win for Pearson and it seems the schools have decided that it was going to fail to be an effective teaching program. So they've pulled the plug. But that is in some ways an admission that the process failed to protect the public dollars.
 

japanime

macrumors 68030
Feb 27, 2006
2,916
4,844
Japan
You and nine other people, do not see the difference between corporate money and tax money?

Had you taken the time to read the subsequent comments in this thread, you would know that your "corporate vs tax money" argument has already been debunked. Professional sports teams are supported by millions upon millions of dollars in public taxes.
 

s2mikey

Suspended
Sep 23, 2013
2,490
4,255
Upstate, NY
I believe a fair estimate is that 50% of the iPads that got issued for this would have been eh-hem "lost" within the first week or so. As soon as students found out what they could get for them on craigslist, it's over. Horrible idea.

Schools are WAY overfunded as it is. They don't need iPads. They also don't need to fund pensions and all the other freebies the school system employees get. And that's that.
 

Jstuts5797

macrumors 6502a
Dec 15, 2013
566
153
L.A. Unified School District Suspends $1 Billion iPad Contract with Apple

The school corp here rolled out net books (lol) a few years ago. At the time the intent was for them to be used in every class, and to at some point replace textbooks completely (in my state, Indiana, even in public schools you have to pay a book rental fee). So it seemed attractive to people at first. All the parents now have to pay a NetBoot rental fee, and teachers have been clueless on how to use even netbooks in a meaningful way(if I were a teacher I'd use the heck out of whatever tech was thrown at me). Anyway because of this the replacement of text books never happened and now parents have ended up with having to pay both text book rental AND netbook rental. The school corp can't really give up on the program because too much money has been spent and there is a contract....with HP I believe. 2nd year after deployment many screens were getting cracked and of course parents had to pay for those screens....so the school corp now offers insurance to the parents... On a device they don't even own, and the students don't even use as they are supposed to. To top it all off, it was found that the screen cracking issue was a design flaw in the netbook so then they sued HP. It's been a horrible implementation on this mid sized school corp(3rd largest in Indiana) they are basically stuck with this netbook program that doesn't even really enrich the educational process and now the tech has progressed so quickly they are not capable do doing things that the teachers say they want them to do. So... I could see why a school corp might shy away from such things.

I will say however a much smaller school district in the neighboring county elected to go with Apple and implement an ipad program district wide. Apple gave them a great deal (even allowing trade ups to new versions of the ipad at an extremely reduced price) the teachers all know how to use them (apple provided training, besides more than half already had an iphone or ipad), and it's been a great success for them. No problems with quality, tech out dating, lack of use, or expensive fees and insurance. I believe the parents pay one fee that includes insurance on the device.

I really think it all comes down to how well these districts roll these things out. But before ANY school even talks about doing such a program, they need to make sure they have their basics well taken care of. At least here I CAN say both school systems I references have done so and both systems have multiple schools that excel on many levels. And the infrastructure is well taken care of. So they didn't put these projects before other things as it appears this LA school corp was trying to do.
 
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jtshaw

macrumors newbie
Jan 14, 2008
11
1
A book has an 'infinent' lifespan. This software as well as an iPad maxes out at 3 to 5 years.

Physical books have a finite lifespan. Textbooks in particular probably get junked a lot faster than you might think. Kids write in them and or tear the pages, content is updated, etc. I don't know what the average age of a text book in a high school is but I'd be surprised if it is more than 3-5 years, it certainly wasn't back when I was in school anyway.
 

ctone

macrumors regular
Nov 28, 2006
103
4
FROM LA TIMES TODAY:

"L.A. Unified can't account for $2 million in computers, audit says

More than $2 million worth of Los Angeles Unified computers, mostly iPads, could not be accounted for during a recent audit by the school system's inspector general.

The review also found that the school district lacked an effective tracking system — and that losses could be higher as a result."


http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-lausd-ipad-audit-20140828-story.html

Auditors actually could only positively verify that 29% of the iPads that have been purchased already were where they were supposed to be.
 

stroked

Suspended
May 3, 2010
555
331
FROM LA TIMES TODAY:

"L.A. Unified can't account for $2 million in computers, audit says

More than $2 million worth of Los Angeles Unified computers, mostly iPads, could not be accounted for during a recent audit by the school system's inspector general.

The review also found that the school district lacked an effective tracking system — and that losses could be higher as a result."


http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-lausd-ipad-audit-20140828-story.html

Auditors actually could only positively verify that 29% of the iPads that have been purchased already were where they were supposed to be.

Books really do last longer than iPads.
 
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