Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
So who says cameras are governed my physics? Yes, DSLRs will have the advantage of good Japanese or German glass. But camera phones have the enormous advantage of having an app, a powerful processor and a graphics processor on board, plus signal processing chops too. Soon enough, pro cameras will have to evolve as well to match the tricks of smartphones.

I first got a single lens reflex when I was 14. It's been sitting in my closet for a long time. It's a relic.

You *do* know that any camera settings that you can adjust on your phone can be adjusted on even a *low-end* DSLR, right?

I can only imagine you're intentionally missing the point that, given the same settings and the same conditions and the same generation of sensor, the picture taken by the DSLR will be superior to the image taken by the phone. This is due to the physics of how light and lenses, the *size* of the the sensor, allowing it to gather more light per pixel.

All of the processing that you're talking about with the "enormous advantage of having an app, a powerful processor and a graphics processor" bit can be done just as well (and better) with the DSLR image. It just won't be done *on* the DSLR. And, to top it all off, the 'signal processing chops' of a DSLR are certainly nothing to sneeze at.
 

wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
I think 8MP is plenty "big" enough. Just keep working to improve the quality of photo. Taking 21 MP photos with your phone...what good does that do? The vast majority of people just post pics to facebook or twitter anyways. Who needs 13, 21, or 40 MP photos. But we all want better quality photos.

We all want good quality photos, however more pixels can be an advanatge at times. The problem in a cell phone is that more pixels can often lead to rapidly decreasing quality. The question then becomes is there new tech on the horizon that would produce that high resolution without letting the quality slip. QuanTum dots have been suggested as the path to high resolution sensors however this looks like a different path to hig resolution.

As for those that post it may seem pointless but not everybody is stuck with posting to the web. Further the minute you want or need to crop a photo pixels count.

In any event this rumor is very interesting indeed. It makes me want to stretch the use of my iPhone 4 even longer.
 

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
The whole "it will be as good as a DSLR" is as stupid as the "games will be console quality" statement.

They aren't. It won't. At the moment the iPhone can do games as well as PS3 or X360 and when did they come out? 10 years ago?

Just over 8 and 9 years ago, respectively.

For a handheld gaming system to match (and in many ways *surpass*) the graphics quality of home consoles that were *current* just over a year ago, is pretty astounding. Consider where phones were as gaming systems when the PS3 and XBox 360 were *released* in 2005 and 2006 respectively. Back then, even the idea of having a 'Full HD' display, much less driving graphics that equal those consoles, in a phone-sized device would have gotten you laughed out of the room.
 

wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
Apple fights the profit war, and I think they realized that to the average consumer holding out on 8MP seems like they haven't improved in years

Not at all. The thing with cameras is that the average consumer can see the results and I that regard Apple has delivered better every single year. In some ways it is one of the best cell phone cameras on the market. That however doesn't mean that more pixels wouldn't imprive things.

The problem is this, more pixels can lead to poorer overall sensor performance based on same generation sensors. So if this story is true, what we may be seeing is Apple looking for a way to overcome the quality problems more pixels introduce in these thin and tiny cameras. If Apple succeeds then what we might see is a camera that can actually deliver quality with high pixel counts. People won't reject such a camera if it performs better in most aspects when compared to today's cameras.

----------

Why should they build it in house if there is a supplier that lives and breathes cameras? Apple would need to spend millions on research for something that may or may not be better than Sony's components. It's been working for them all this time. Just like the Maps fiasco, be careful what you wish for.

I have to agree with everything but the idea that Maps was a fiasco. Maps delivered for me from day one and has gotten better continuously since. The idea that Maps was a flop really needs to die as it has only been so in the minds of a very small minority.
 

littyboy

macrumors 6502a
Jun 12, 2009
712
920
So Apple will definitely be adding more RAM in the s models?

One would hope but it didn't happen for the 5 --> 5s. Know tim cook's greed and history of reusing old parts/specs, I wouldn't be surprised if we see 1GB for the 4th year in a row...
 

wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
Actually - what is an DSLR type image ? Creamy bokeh? Focal length from 14-400 mm ? High ISO (see Sony A7S)? Low noise? High dynamic range?

An SLR allows for control. That is the photographer has the ability to manipulate the image acquisition process to deliver the results he wants. A simple example here is depth of field control but there are many other parameters that one can adjust.

So in my mind anyways an SLR image is one where the photographer takes an active role in the creation of that image. That active roll helps to focus the viewer on that part of the picture that the artist wants the viewer focused on. It really isn't about technical specs but rather using the technical understanding of a camera to produce a bit of art instead of a moment frozen in time.

I hope I'm making sense here. An SLR is a half way point between the point and shoot world and the world of a photographer using a view camera.

----------

One would hope but it didn't happen for the 5 --> 5s. Know tim cook's greed and history of reusing old parts/specs, I wouldn't be surprised if we see 1GB for the 4th year in a row...

That is possible. However they could also jump to DDR 4 or a low power variant of that standard. DDR 4 itself is pretty low power so there may not be a pressing need to wait for a low power variant. It would be nice to see a move to 2GB also deliver a performance boost which they would need a higher performance memory. I just don't see the room being available in an iPhone for the wide Memory interfaces we see in the iPads so performance would require new tech.
 

macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,172
19,742
Actually - what is an DSLR type image ? Creamy bokeh? Focal length from 14-400 mm ? High ISO (see Sony A7S)? Low noise? High dynamic range?

I think it has to do more with image quality, so it has to take decent photos in low light conditions, have a good dynamic and tonal range, and allow for better subject isolation, aka yeah, pop that subject off the background with some tasty bokeh. It needs to be difficult to discern what was taken with a professional camera, and what was taken with a point and shoot. Not so much when pixel peeping, but in general viewing or smaller scale printing. If Apple can do that and patent it, then there is no stopping them. They would pretty much kill most of the prosumer market and downward overnight. Color me skeptical, but it's a fancy idea. Unfortunately for us professionals who still need to buy dSLRs—for the quickness of the controls, zoom range, high-powered flash systems and more—this could really put a dent in the profit margins of companies like Nikon and Canon who have already been feeling the hurt from smartphone photography. Just leaving them with the dSLR market would kind of suck.
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
It's interesting how 'HDR' has gone from being a style of photography to being a 'feature'.

You acheive an HDR image by bracketing a shot and then combining the images to obtain the desired blend of bright and dark detail.

Since I'm kind of "specialist" of high contrast shots, I find HDR photos blah and washed out. What's the point of them? Yeah, I guess some people want to get shadow details... But, for me, if something is in the shadows, I put them in the shadows :).
 

flottenheimer

macrumors 68000
Jan 8, 2008
1,530
651
Up north
Why is more than 8MP better?

While I'm not into the whole megapixel race, more than 8mp would be nice on any wide-angle camera that doesn't have optical zoom.

You don't need to be very far away from, say, the stage at a concert, for the lead singers head to be rendered in very few pixels, effectively making "crop-to-zoom" worthless.

And hey, things are moving in that direction – 8mp iPhone photos at 3264 × 2448 will need to be upscaled to fit that 4K UHD flatscreen you'll buy next. And seriously upscaled to fit the new 5K iMacs.
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
Why "not withstanding that a larger lens allows a larger sensor"? That's an intrinsic part of the tradeoff you get by putting a camera into a tiny device, and it directly impacts image quality. And yes, it's governed by physics. You can't just miniaturize an SLR lens and sensor and get the same performance because you have to deal with the wavelength of the spectrum you're trying to capture (physics). You can cram as many photoreceptors as you want onto a tiny sensor, but as they get smaller, the wavelength of the light becomes a factor and adjacent pixels are going to be "seeing" the same thing, negating the point of having extra pixels.

So how about putting in a larger sensor? Go ahead, but now you're going to need a physically larger lens to gather enough light to expose it. Oops, your slim phone just got a lot of glass added to it and sucks to put in your pocket. Let's also remember that a tiny lens is -- by it's very definition -- not capable of large apertures, which because of the way light works (again, physics) means less depth of field. A lot of photographers would count that as part of "optic quality".

Let's be clear: smartphone cameras are capable of taking very high quality photos, and they're getting better all the time. And I guess adding a second lens and some very complicated processing could be a way to milk even more out of this kind of setup. But they're good at taking ONE KIND of high quality photo: a photo with a pretty small aperture at a fixed focal length. So if you want to limit your discussion of "quality" to that kind of photo? Yeah, go for it, but a lot of photographers want and need more than that.

I know all that, I was responding to someone saying that a larger lens is better than a smaller lens because of the laws of physics and I was asking why.

----------

While I'm not into the whole megapixel race, more than 8mp would be nice on any wide-angle camera that doesn't have optical zoom.

You don't need to be very far away from, say, the stage at a concert, for the lead singers head to be rendered in very few pixels, effectively making "crop-to-zoom" worthless.

And hey, things are moving in that direction – 8mp iPhone photos at 3264 × 2448 will need to be upscaled to fit that 4K UHD flatscreen you'll buy next. And seriously upscaled to fit the new 5K iMacs.

All sensible points....
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
While I'm not into the whole megapixel race, more than 8mp would be nice on any wide-angle camera that doesn't have optical zoom.

You don't need to be very far away from, say, the stage at a concert, for the lead singers head to be rendered in very few pixels, effectively making "crop-to-zoom" worthless.

And hey, things are moving in that direction – 8mp iPhone photos at 3264 × 2448 will need to be upscaled to fit that 4K UHD flatscreen you'll buy next. And seriously upscaled to fit the new 5K iMacs.

Concert generally means bad lighting conditions, which implies noise, which means a higher pixel count is the LAST thing you would want. It sucks that a smart phone doesn't have the low light capacity of a 70D.. But, hey that's how it is. The cropped shot you get from the 20MP doesn't more actual information than the 8MP shot because of the noise.
 

ron7624

macrumors 68020
Oct 14, 2011
2,228
437
Houston, Texas area
I've got to say any improvement is certainly welcome to me, but I am unbelievably happy with the camera on my 4.7 inch iPhone 6.
My daughter asked me to photograph her family for Christmas pictures. I got a good tripod and a couple of regular lightbulbs and put them in a work light holders.
The photographs are like a razor you can even count eyelashes zoomed in on the three-quarter length pictures.
The camera on the ip6 is amazing.
I have not had an iPhone camera in the past anywhere close to this good.
I worked for a photographer in my younger years and simply apply the same principles of lighting. the pictures turned out very nicely.
Of course the quality did not come close to the Hasselblads that I used to use, but for a cell phone? Wow!
 

flottenheimer

macrumors 68000
Jan 8, 2008
1,530
651
Up north
Concert generally means bad lighting conditions, which implies noise, which means a higher pixel count is the LAST thing you would want. It sucks that a smart phone doesn't have the low light capacity of a 70D.. But, hey that's how it is. The cropped shot you get from the 20MP doesn't more actual information than the 8MP shot because of the noise.

Who said the concert was indoors / or at night?
On top of that it was just an example. There are thousands of other situations where the logic applies.
 

01silver4

macrumors 6502a
Oct 4, 2014
611
117
Florida
I cant even start to imagine a better camera Than the one on my 6+ right now, I am no professional photographer. But my goodness the camera on the 6/6+ is amazing. So for apple to make a better camera than the ones on 6/6+ would be mind blowing. I wonder if I would be able to tell the deference though, a mean check out this photo below this was taken with my wife 6.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    1.5 MB · Views: 68

BigInDallas

macrumors regular
Oct 13, 2014
218
111
Connecticut
Now that this has come to light, watch Samsung introduce the same thing early summer. Seems like they have been beating Apple to the feature punch lately, though admittedly, whether they match up in quality may up for debate.


What does Samsung have to do with this????
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.