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The Car Thread ... !

2

2298754

Cancelled
Jun 21, 2010
4,890
941
iLog.Genius said:
If you're considering a ML, avoid the Diesel/Bluetec model and try to find one without driver aids (if possible). The AdBlue heater element is known to fail and so are the sensor radars for the Blind Spot Assist.
Click to expand...

Is it really that bad? I have some of the same parts on my diesel X5's SCR system and it's been bulletproof over 4 years.

The major issue with Mercedes' diesel implementation is that they replace the spare tire well with the AdBlue tank and force run-flats. No spare. With BMW, the tanks are located in the front and I still have a spare... but have OEM RFTs that can be changed in the future.
 
AustinIllini

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,683
10,517
Austin, TX
determined09 said:
So DOes Lexas have any RWD cars ? Why do you recommend rear wheel drive?
Click to expand...

All the Lexus sedans except the ES are RWD.

Why RWD? There are three reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

1) No torque steer: When your driving wheels are also your steering wheels (as in FWD), you get a phenomenon called "torque steer", where the car veers in one direction or another.

2) FWD vehicles tend to understeer. Understeer is when you take a corner and your steering is not sharp enough. RWD tend to oversteer, where the corner is taken more sharply. In some situations, this causes the tail of the car to spin, but generally, it's preferred for overall driving experience.

3) Weight distribution. Your mileage may vary on this, but the RWD cars tend to have a preferable weight distribution.

I can see by your profile that you are in Texas. This works well, as the advantages of FWD and AWD vehicles tend to be related to inclement weather, the kind we never see down in Texas.

Again, YMMV, but I drive a FWD vehicle, and while I enjoy it very much, I regret not getting a RWD vehicle.

For the entry level vehicles FWD is almost completely standard (except sporty models like the Mustang, Camaro). For the upscale brands, it pretty much breaks down like this.

FWD/AWD:
Audi
Acura
Lexus (ES only)
Entry Level Marques (Honda, Toyota, Scion, Chevy, Ford, etc.)

RWD/AWD:
Everyone else
 
AustinIllini

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,683
10,517
Austin, TX
D.T. said:
Quite of a new of their model lines are RWD: GS, LS, IS. Heck, in looking, I think only the ES sedans are FWD[?]
Click to expand...

Yes. Generally, RWD is considered more "premium" than front wheel drive.

The ES is either the Camry or the Avalon (I can't remember which one).
 
Last edited:
A.Goldberg

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,543
9,710
Boston
AustinIllini said:
Yes. Generally, RWD is considered more "premium" than front wheel drive.
Click to expand...

Well, better driving dynamics if that is what you mean by "premium". Better handling and better pickup. FWD gives you more in some cases more space inside, better traction, and efficiency.

Unfortunately RWD is not great for snowy conditions which is why everything in the Northeast is either FWD or AWD/4WD.
 
AustinIllini

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,683
10,517
Austin, TX
A.Goldberg said:
Well, better driving dynamics if that is what you mean by "premium". Better handling and better pickup. FWD gives you more in some cases more space inside, better traction, and efficiency.

Unfortunately RWD is not great for snowy conditions which is why everything in the Northeast is either FWD or AWD/4WD.
Click to expand...

Of course, premium is such a debatable topic. When I say premium, I think of it as a scale. You really, in my eyes, have three tiers (not including exotic).

Affordable (not premium)
Honda, Toyota, Ford, Chevy, Subaru, Mazda

Upscale (premium features)
Buick, Acura, Volvo

Luxury (premium)
Lexus, Audi, BMW, Merc, Cadillac

A number of brands have models above these, but they don't exactly sell the same.
 
iLog.Genius

iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
4,908
452
Toronto, Ontario
AutoUnion39 said:
Is it really that bad? I have some of the same parts on my diesel X5's SCR system and it's been bulletproof over 4 years.

The major issue with Mercedes' diesel implementation is that they replace the spare tire well with the AdBlue tank and force run-flats. No spare. With BMW, the tanks are located in the front and I still have a spare... but have OEM RFTs that can be changed in the future.
Click to expand...

While there is no recall, forums are filled with these problems. Uncle had both those replaced under warranty and they failed again outside of warranty. I don't know if it's so much the placement but the actual heater itself. It it fails once, fine - tough luck. But to have it fail twice in a span of one year is pretty terrible. I helped my uncle look up the part numbers for him to DIY and it looks both the AdBlue heater and blind spot assist sensors have gone through various revisions so there's the hint that there have been problems with these things.

For as much **** BMW gets for electric gremlins, Mercedes is a lot worse. My family is split into two camps: BMW's and Mercedes. While the BMW's have had their share of problems (spark plug coils, DMTL pumps, brake sensors) these are extremely minor to the problems the Mercedes' have had which are more significant in failure and in cost/time.
 
D.T.

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
A.Goldberg said:
Well, better driving dynamics if that is what you mean by "premium". Better handling and better pickup.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I've had lengthy conversions (*sigh* and a few with magazine racers pointing out how radically modified FWD civics can hang with an NSX) about driving dynamics and how they're (i.e., the experience of driving is) enhanced by RWD.

Clearly though, there are some advantages to FWD, snow/low traction being one.

As a _driver_, I'd never own FWD, only RWD, though I knocked around the idea of an AWD car (that isn't an SUV). :)
 
AustinIllini

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,683
10,517
Austin, TX
Der Supra: East Meets West in the Toyota/BMW Sports-Car Partnership

toyota-ft-1-concept-photo-624454-s-986x603.jpg
 
A.Goldberg

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,543
9,710
Boston
My girlfriend and I did some car shopping today for her.

In addition to checking out the S60 T5 and T6 AWD sedans last weekend, we test drove-

2012/13 Lexus IS250 AWD - Bland styling, great quality, not as fun as other vehicles, including the S60, the 250 isn't particularly powerful. Small interior.
2014 Lexus IS250 AWD - A lot of improvements over the last generation, much more fun to drive. Much more expensive though.
2013 Acura TL AWD - Ugly, boring, not greatly impressed. Drove OK, but just Ok. Good quality but not as good as the Lexus. Too big for her liking. TSX does no offer AWD. TLX is probably too new to afford.
 
D.T.

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
AustinIllini

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,683
10,517
Austin, TX
A.Goldberg said:
My girlfriend and I did some car shopping today for her.

In addition to checking out the S60 T5 and T6 AWD sedans last weekend, we test drove-

2012/13 Lexus IS250 AWD - Bland styling, great quality, not as fun as other vehicles, including the S60, the 250 isn't particularly powerful. Small interior.
2014 Lexus IS250 AWD - A lot of improvements over the last generation, much more fun to drive. Much more expensive though.
2013 Acura TL AWD - Ugly, boring, not greatly impressed. Drove OK, but just Ok. Good quality but not as good as the Lexus. Too big for her liking. TSX does no offer AWD. TLX is probably too new to afford.
Click to expand...

Depending on your budget, consider a late model Audi A4 Quattro. great car.
 
I

Interstellar

macrumors newbie
Apr 16, 2015
18
1
AustinIllini said:
All the Lexus sedans except the ES are RWD.

Why RWD? There are three reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

1) No torque steer: When your driving wheels are also your steering wheels (as in FWD), you get a phenomenon called "torque steer", where the car veers in one direction or another.

2) FWD vehicles tend to understeer. Understeer is when you take a corner and your steering is not sharp enough. RWD tend to oversteer, where the corner is taken more sharply. In some situations, this causes the tail of the car to spin, but generally, it's preferred for overall driving experience.

3) Weight distribution. Your mileage may vary on this, but the RWD cars tend to have a preferable weight distribution.

I can see by your profile that you are in Texas. This works well, as the advantages of FWD and AWD vehicles tend to be related to inclement weather, the kind we never see down in Texas.

Again, YMMV, but I drive a FWD vehicle, and while I enjoy it very much, I regret not getting a RWD vehicle.

For the entry level vehicles FWD is almost completely standard (except sporty models like the Mustang, Camaro). For the upscale brands, it pretty much breaks down like this.

FWD/AWD:
Audi
Acura
Lexus (ES only)
Entry Level Marques (Honda, Toyota, Scion, Chevy, Ford, etc.)

RWD/AWD:
Everyone else
Click to expand...

Being in a winter country, it's AWD > FWD > RWD here. So yeah, I'm actually happy I didn't go for a RWD car.
 
MatthewLTL

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
A.Goldberg said:
My sister made finally made a move on a car.

Yesterday she bought a 2014 Rav4 Limited and drove it off the lot. I am a little surprised she went with the Toyota, but she got a very great deal and I think she liked the more upscale interior. While the AWD system isn't as good as the Subaru, it's one of the better options in it's class.

2014 Rav4 Limited 2.5 4cyl (22/29 mpg)
16,000 Miles, like-new condition
Clean Carfax history
Leather, Navigation, Bluetooth, Climate Control, AWD, Sunroof, Power Trunk, JBL Audio, Backup Camera, etc. I think the only option it doesn't have in blind spot monitoring.
Local trade, purchased CPO at a local, reputable Toyota dealer.
Warranty includes:
- Remainder of 3yr/36,000mi b2b factory warranty
- 12month/12,000mi b2b additional to the factory warranty
- CPO 7yr/100,000mi powertrain warranty
- 1 year roadside assistance

The final price was just over $25,000 (before taxes/fees) which is quite a bit under KBB and Edmunds value. Considering a brand new model with the same specs sells on average for $32,000 (according to KBB), and she ends up with a better warranty, this was a good deal for her. She paid cash so there was no financing incentive. Her 07 Grand Cherokee Overland will be sold private party (any takers ;) )

The Rav4 wasn't my first choice, but I will say interior is best in class despite looking a little hodgepodge (and I dislike the faux carbon fiber). The infotainment system is pretty decent and the stereo is fantastic for a relatively cheap car. I wasn't thrilled with the driving dynamics (it's comfortable, but not fun) or the relatively weak engine, but it is what it is. I'm used to V8 SUV's and upscale sedans.

Tomorrow my girlfriend and I are going to take a look at some cars for her.
Click to expand...

sweet. my friend bought a 2014 rav4 brand new i didnt look at the interior (as i have only seen the car 2 times) but she opted to NOT have the SatNav because that is a extra $2000.... you can buy a GPS for $60 not sure it it has bluetooth or not though as i said.... I only saw the car twice didn't bother to look at the interior her Rav4 has a V6 that's what she told me when I talked to her yesterday. One of these days shell let me drive it.... never driven a SUV before.

EDIT: correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the Grand Cherokee's natorious for transmission and transfer case failures?
 
Last edited:
A.Goldberg

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,543
9,710
Boston
MatthewLTL said:
sweet. my friend bought a 2014 rav4 brand new i didnt look at the interior (as i have only seen the car 2 times) but she opted to NOT have the SatNav because that is a extra $2000.... you can buy a GPS for $60 not sure it it has bluetooth or not though as i said.... I only saw the car twice didn't bother to look at the interior her Rav4 has a V6 that's what she told me when I talked to her yesterday. One of these days shell let me drive it.... never driven a SUV before.

EDIT: correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the Grand Cherokee's natorious for transmission and transfer case failures?
Click to expand...

Back from the penalty box I see! Oy Vey...

The selling point of the car was not the navigation. It was the fact it was thousands under blue book, in perfect condition, locally available from a reputable Toyota dealer, and was offered with a better warranty than buying new. The features she wanted were alloy wheels, black leather interior, tasteful exterior color, heated seats, and a sunroof. When you buy used (and sometimes even new depending on the make) you can't be overly selective about the options. Especially if you have a time constraint and don't want to travel hundreds of miles looking for a car. The latest generation RAV4 is 2013+ and there aren't actually many used ones out there as people tend to hold onto these cars for longer periods and I suppose the 2013 leased models are not off lease until 2016.

Bluetooth and backup camera are standard on all models- true of literally all the other cars in this segment. Navigation is standard on the 2015 model. All US 2013+ RAV4 have 2.5L 4Cyl engines but you could get the v6 in the previous generation model.

I haven't heard too many issues with the WK2 (2011+) Grand Cherokee. I believe they came out with a software update in 2012 for the transmission but that's about it. The new Cherokee had a lot of issues if I remember correctly. The Jeeps (GC, Cherokee, and Wrangler) of the 90's had a lot of transmission issues, along with many other Chrysler products.

The 2011-2013 V6 Grand Cherokees have a Mercedes transmission that is tried and true. The 2014 models have a ZF transmission, who is generally well regarded for making some of the best transmissions in the world (with a few exceptions). The Cherokee (not GC) has a 9-speed ZF shared with other new Fiat vehicles, is one of those exceptions.
 
Last edited:
MatthewLTL

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
A.Goldberg said:
Back from the penalty box I see! Oy Vey...

The selling point of the car was not the navigation. It was the fact it was thousands under blue book, in perfect condition, locally available from a reputable Toyota dealer, and was offered with a better warranty than buying new. The features she wanted were alloy wheels, black leather interior, tasteful exterior color, heated seats, and a sunroof. When you buy used (and sometimes even new depending on the make) you can't be overly selective about the options. Especially if you have a time constraint and don't want to travel hundreds of miles looking for a car. The latest generation RAV4 is 2013+ and there aren't actually many used ones out there as people tend to hold onto these cars for longer periods and I suppose the 2013 leased models are not off lease until 2016.

Bluetooth and backup camera are standard on all models- true of literally all the other cars in this segment. Navigation is standard on the 2015 model. All US 2013+ RAV4 have 2.5L 4Cyl engines but you could get the v6 in the previous generation model.

I haven't heard too many issues with the WK2 (2011+) Grand Cherokee. I believe they came out with a software update in 2012 for the transmission but that's about it. The new Cherokee had a lot of issues if I remember correctly. The Jeeps (GC, Cherokee, and Wrangler) of the 90's had a lot of transmission issues, along with many other Chrysler products.

The 2011-2013 V6 Grand Cherokees have a Mercedes transmission that is tried and true. The 2014 models have a ZF transmission, who is generally well regarded for making some of the best transmissions in the world (with a few exceptions). The Cherokee (not GC) has a 9-speed ZF shared with other new Fiat vehicles, is one of those exceptions.
Click to expand...

oh ok, like i said i dont know too much about cars and neither does she not sure where she got the idea of it being a V6 then.... All she told me was she didn't get the SatNav because it was an extra 2 grand. she did get quite a few options but i cannot remember what any of them are. Boy do i miss the days where my car ran so quiet you couldn't even hear it running like new cars. However a RAV4 is just as loud band new as my engine is after 15 years....
 
2

2298754

Cancelled
Jun 21, 2010
4,890
941
MatthewLTL said:
sweet. my friend bought a 2014 rav4 brand new i didnt look at the interior (as i have only seen the car 2 times) but she opted to NOT have the SatNav because that is a extra $2000.... you can buy a GPS for $60 not sure it it has bluetooth or not though as i said.... I only saw the car twice didn't bother to look at the interior her Rav4 has a V6 that's what she told me when I talked to her yesterday. One of these days shell let me drive it.... never driven a SUV before.
Click to expand...

RAV4 hasn't come in a V6 for a few years now. That was such a rocketship.
 
T

turtle777

macrumors 6502a
Apr 30, 2004
686
29
MatthewLTL said:
oh ok, like i said i dont know too much about cars
Click to expand...

Quoted for the future.

Will come in handy.

I still do t understand how she and you could be mistaken about having a V6 or not. Isn't this something you'd wanna know for sure BEFORE buying a car ?

-t
 
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