6 irritating things about 10.6. Have they been fixed in LION?

javideslomao · Apr 4, 2011

Hi forum, these have been long standing annoyances in Snow Leopard. Anyone knows if they have been fixed in 10.7 (Lion)?

1. Lack of "Maximize" keyboard shortcut. Mapping a shortcut to the "Zoom" menu doesn't work if the "Zoom" menu is actually named something else or has been translated into another language.

2. Will programs die after I close their last window? I mean, yes, idle programs lurking on the dock are really fast to load, but lots of them hog the memory, slow the computer down, and make the original point moot.

3. Keyboard shortcut to switch between windows, not applications (without paying extra for Witch). I know I can use Exposé (F3) and then arrows, but the way Exposé sorts windows is not productive. I really need something like Witch, built-in.

4. Deleting something in Finder (CMD+DEL) and moving the cursor takes me to the top of the list. What?? Why can't I just stay where I was?? [EDIT: can be worked around by switching to Coverflow view in SL, thanks AdeFowler]

5. Can I select a number of non-contiguous files with my keyboard in Finder? Say you want to select files 7, 12 and 19 on a list. On Snow Leopard, you're forced to use the mouse.

6. Can I uninstall applications cleanly? Dropping an .app to the Trash will left everything else behind (libraries, extensions, changes in /etc files, files in /usr/local, etc.)

Please avoid answers like "You can't. Macs don't have the counterintuitive xxx feature", or "Why would you ever need that", etc. I've been using Macs since they looked like a shoebox and my frustrations have persisted all this long.

Thank you!

xUKHCx · Apr 4, 2011

javideslomao said:
3. Keyboard shortcut to switch between windows, not applications (without paying extra for Witch). I know I can use Exposé (F3) and then arrows, but the way Exposé sorts windows is not productive. I really need something like Witch, built-in.

I haven't used Witch in a long long time and even then only for a trial, however you can cycle through windows natively already by "Cmd+~".

Hansr · Apr 4, 2011

xUKHCx said:
I haven't used Witch in a long long time and even then only for a trial, however you can cycle through windows natively already by "Cmd+~".

This doesn't work straight away on many international keyboards. You need to redefine the shortcut in Sys Prefs but at least it works after that.

javideslomao said:
1. Lack of "Maximize" keyboard shortcut. Mapping a shortcut to the "Zoom" menu doesn't work if the "Zoom" menu is actually named something else or has been translated into another language.

That should work, I think that might be more of a bug with international system settings rather than a lack of a feature. Have you tried sending Apple feedback on this?

javideslomao said:
2. Will programs die after I close their last window? I mean, yes, idle programs lurking on the dock are really fast to load, but lots of them hog the memory, slow the computer down, and make the original point moot.

I don't think letting the system control for applications explicitly being closed when you close the last window is a good idea as it runs counter to the way many people used their computers. I think Apple will not move away from you have to explicitly exit the application. Of course some programmers (including Apple, iLife apps etc) do this for their applications but personally I wish they didn't.

javideslomao said:
4. Deleting something in Finder (CMD+DEL) and moving the cursor takes me to the top of the list. What?? Why can't I just stay where I was??

So remember the state of a deleted object. I think from a fundamental perspective this doesn't happen because the object does not exist within the folder from the Finder's point of view and therefore to jumps to the beginning/end. I doubt Apple will change this behavior as it is just that a behavioral choice and they seem to have chosen this result rather than the one you want. Have you tried some of the Finder alternatives and see if they implement this feature?

javideslomao said:
5. Can I select a number of non-contiguous files with my keyboard in Finder? Say you want to select files 7, 12 and 19 on a list. On Snow Leopard, you're forced to use the mouse.

This is interesting, how is this handled in other OSes that do this? Can't see why Apple wouldn't add this if enough people request it. Again might be in Finder alternatives too.

javideslomao said:
6. Can I uninstall applications cleanly? Dropping an .app to the Trash will left everything else behind (libraries, extensions, changes in /etc files, files in /usr/local, etc.)

Completely agree. I think this might be coming with Lion or future iterations as Apple moves to the totalitarian App Store application deployment model.

PurrBall · Apr 4, 2011

javideslomao said:
2. Will programs die after I close their last window? I mean, yes, idle programs lurking on the dock are really fast to load, but lots of them hog the memory, slow the computer down, and make the original point moot.

Well, some programs now, such as Preview and TextEdit, will die once all windows are closed and you switch to another app.

javideslomao · Apr 5, 2011

Hansr said:
That should work, I think that might be more of a bug with international system settings rather than a lack of a feature. Have you tried sending Apple feedback on this?

Never tried sendind Apple feedback, no. I'm hoping they read MacRumors

This is not an i18n issue. There are keys for minimizing and hiding. There's no reason why zooming shouldn't have its own. Since it doesn't, you need to resort to kludges like mapping shortcuts to menu items, but that works only so often. For example, the menu item for zooming in Terminal is named "Zoom". On my spanish version of Chrome, though, is named "Activar Zoom". And, of course, Chrome doesn't zoom when I hit the "Zoom" keys.

Hansr said:
I don't think letting the system control for applications explicitly being closed when you close the last window is a good idea as it runs counter to the way many people used their computers. I think Apple will not move away from you have to explicitly exit the application. Of course some programmers (including Apple, iLife apps etc) do this for their applications but personally I wish they didn't.

I don't buy that. Apple is all about changing users' habits, the latest and greatest of which is making people switch from netbooks to tablets. If I'm done with a program, dammit, I want it to die. If the OS wants to keep it around so that it loads faster next time, do it transparently. GCC (the command-line compiler) does it that way. When it's done compiling, it stays around for a few seconds. If you call it again, it runs super-fast because it has everything pre-loaded. But if you don't use it for a while, it just silently dies.

And, by the way, have you never typed something by mistake on a windowless app thinking you were somewhere else (Safari, etc.)?

Hansr said:
So remember the state of a deleted object. I think from a fundamental perspective this doesn't happen because the object does not exist within the folder from the Finder's point of view and therefore to jumps to the beginning/end. I doubt Apple will change this behavior as it is just that a behavioral choice and they seem to have chosen this result rather than the one you want. Have you tried some of the Finder alternatives and see if they implement this feature?

No: remember the state of the previous and the next objects. Then drop me off on either one depending on whether I pressed up or down. I have tried a few Finder alternatives, but I'd rather not pay extra to have that fixed.

Hansr said:
This is interesting, how is this handled in other OSes that do this? Can't see why Apple wouldn't add this if enough people request it. Again might be in Finder alternatives too.

On Windows, it works like I explained earlier. Maybe they're holding a patent on that behavior, who knows...

Hansr said:
Completely agree. I think this might be coming with Lion or future iterations as Apple moves to the totalitarian App Store application deployment model.

I really hope uninstall doesn't come at the price of App Store tyranny.

Hansr said:
This doesn't work straight away on many international keyboards. You need to redefine the shortcut in Sys Prefs but at least it works after that.

Yeah, you can remap it on international keyboards. However, try this on 10.6: open a PDF with Preview. Then open up a couple of JPGs. Then, try to switch windows. Mine gets stuck at the PDF and won't switch back to the JPGs

I guess the error is, again, leaving the window switching implementation to the application, when it's the OS that should take care of it.

PurrBall said:
Well, some programs now, such as Preview and TextEdit, will die once all windows are closed and you switch to another app.

Yay! Looks promising. Did you get to try any of the other annoyances, particularly the keyboard-related ones?

simonshek · Apr 5, 2011

Hansr said:
This doesn't work straight away on many international keyboards. You need to redefine the shortcut in Sys Prefs but at least it works after that.

It does work in some international keyboard.

tkermit · Apr 5, 2011

Hansr said:
This doesn't work straight away on many international keyboards. You need to redefine the shortcut in Sys Prefs but at least it works after that.

CMD + > and CMD + < work for me by default.

javideslomao said:
try this on 10.6: open a PDF with Preview. Then open up a couple of JPGs. Then, try to switch windows. Mine gets stuck at the PDF and won't switch back to the JPGs

Seems to work fine here, on Snow Leopard.

javideslomao said:
I don't buy that. Apple is all about changing users' habits, the latest and greatest of which is making people switch from netbooks to tablets. If I'm done with a program, dammit, I want it to die. If the OS wants to keep it around so that it loads faster next time, do it transparently. GCC (the command-line compiler) does it that way. When it's done compiling, it stays around for a few seconds. If you call it again, it runs super-fast because it has everything pre-loaded. But if you don't use it for a while, it just silently dies.

That's almost exactly what they're doing with Lion:

The system automatically manages apps and conserves resources by closing apps that are not being used.

panoz7 · Apr 5, 2011

javideslomao said:
2. Will programs die after I close their last window? I mean, yes, idle programs lurking on the dock are really fast to load, but lots of them hog the memory, slow the computer down, and make the original point moot.

I think this should be left up to the developer. I don't want my mail app to quit after I close the last window, nor do I want safari to quit if I have something downloading in the background.

In general the apps that I actually would want to close on their own (textedit and preview were two good examples) aren't exactly resource intensive. I'd actually prefer that programs like photoshop and indesign keep running when I close the last window -- if I haven't intentionally quit them it's likely that I will be using them again soon.

javideslomao said:
5. Can I select a number of non-contiguous files with my keyboard in Finder? Say you want to select files 7, 12 and 19 on a list. On Snow Leopard, you're forced to use the mouse.

If you don't mind, could you explain exactly how this works in other OSs?

CrzySausageBaby · Apr 5, 2011

Maybe they could give us the ability to Cut and Paste in finder -_-

tkermit · Apr 5, 2011

CrzySausageBaby said:
Maybe they could give us the ability to Cut and Paste in finder -_-

Yes, maybe.

blondepianist · Apr 5, 2011

javideslomao said:
2. Will programs die after I close their last window? I mean, yes, idle programs lurking on the dock are really fast to load, but lots of them hog the memory, slow the computer down, and make the original point moot.

My understanding is that with Lion, Apple is abstracting program state so that, from the user's perspective, there is no difference between idle and closed programs. If an idle application is hogging too much memory, OS X will request that it close (a la iOS); if the app is coded to support Resume, its data in memory will be written to disk, and loaded back the next time you switch to the app.

Halvard · Apr 5, 2011

javideslomao said:
6. Can I uninstall applications cleanly? Dropping an .app to the Trash will left everything else behind (libraries, extensions, changes in /etc files, files in /usr/local, etc.)

Download AppCleaner. Its a free application that delete all the files. Just drag the application into the box and its gone. You can also delete plugins and other things!

jake4ever · Apr 5, 2011

Halvard said:
Download AppCleaner. Its a free application that delete all the files. Just drag the application into the box and its gone. You can also delete plugins and other things!

[****]

I've used this program since 2008, it works fantastically.

v5point0 · Apr 6, 2011

javideslomao said:
2. Will programs die after I close their last window? I mean, yes, idle programs lurking on the dock are really fast to load, but lots of them hog the memory, slow the computer down, and make the original point moot.

CMD + Q

javideslomao said:
3. Keyboard shortcut to switch between windows, not applications (without paying extra for Witch). I know I can use Exposé (F3) and then arrows, but the way Exposé sorts windows is not productive. I really need something like Witch, built-in.

CMD + `

javideslomao said:
6. Can I uninstall applications cleanly? Dropping an .app to the Trash will left everything else behind (libraries, extensions, changes in /etc files, files in /usr/local, etc.)

AppTrap

Drewbie · Apr 6, 2011

do you have something against a mouse? you seem to ask all about keyboard only shortcuts to do things....

jeanlain · Apr 6, 2011

xUKHCx said:
I haven't used Witch in a long long time and even then only for a trial, however you can cycle through windows natively already by "Cmd+~".

I recall there was a way to configure that in Snow Leo, in the keyboard preference I believe. But I can't do it in Lion. Has anyone found were to edit the shortcut?

EDIT: Found it in "Keyboard in Text input" section.

javideslomao · Apr 7, 2011

jake4ever said:
I've used this program since 2008, it works fantastically.

AppCleaner is good, but it's just a workaround. Some packages won't show up in AppCleaner because they're neither an application nor a widget. Some others will make changes to system files (/etc, ...), add extensions to /System/Library and that won't get reverted either. It's really unfortunate we don't have proper package management in Lion at this point of the 21th century.

Drewbie said:
do you have something against a mouse? you seem to ask all about keyboard only shortcuts to do things....

Not particularly, but a keyboard is much more productive once you get used to the shortcuts. Example, to fire up Calculator with the keyboard:

CMD + SPACE, "Calc", Enter.

I dare you do that faster with a mouse

v5point0 said:
CMD + Q

No, that shuts down the whole App. It's different than shutting down the App when I close its last window.

v5point0 said:
CMD + `

No, that switches windows within an App, not windows globally. Plus, it doesn't even work while I'm on this reply textbox in Chrome. Ok, I'll confess: I want the same behavior as the Windows task switcher

v5point0 said:
AppTrap

No, that's just like throwing an App to the trash with its prefs. Kexts, libraries, changes to system files, etc. are left behind.

tkermit · Apr 7, 2011

javideslomao said:
No[...]No[...]No

May I suggest switching to Windows

Hansr · Apr 7, 2011

javideslomao said:
No, that switches windows within an App, not windows globally. Plus, it doesn't even work while I'm on this reply textbox in Chrome. Ok, I'll confess: I want the same behavior as the Windows task switcher

http://manytricks.com/witch/

javideslomao said:
No, that shuts down the whole App. It's different than shutting down the App when I close its last window.

Wait... what? What is the difference?

jeanlain · Apr 7, 2011

javideslomao said:
Not particularly, but a keyboard is much more productive once you get used to the shortcuts. Example, to fire up Calculator with the keyboard:

CMD + SPACE, "Calc", Enter.

I dare you do that faster with a mouse

Move down to the dock and click.

javideslomao · Apr 7, 2011

tkermit said:
May I suggest switching to Windows

No, too many viruses and no trackpad inertia

But I do agree that Windows has always paid equal attention to keyboard and mouse usability.

AdeFowler · Apr 7, 2011

javideslomao said:
4. Deleting something in Finder (CMD+DEL) and moving the cursor takes me to the top of the list. What?? Why can't I just stay where I was??

This works in Coverflow view in SL.

javideslomao · Apr 7, 2011

panoz7 said:
Originally Posted by javideslomao
5. Can I select a number of non-contiguous files with my keyboard in Finder? Say you want to select files 7, 12 and 19 on a list. On Snow Leopard, you're forced to use the mouse

Click to expand...

If you don't mind, could you explain exactly how this works in other OSs?

On Windows you keep CTRL pressed and move with the arrows. Then hit SPACE to select the file under the cursor.

AdeFowler said:
Originally Posted by javideslomao

4. Deleting something in Finder (CMD+DEL) and moving the cursor takes me to the top of the list. What?? Why can't I just stay where I was??
This works in Coverflow view in SL.

Click to expand...

WOW. It does!!! Coverflow sure stays enabled from now on!

roadbloc · Apr 7, 2011

javideslomao said:
No, that shuts down the whole App. It's different than shutting down the App when I close its last window.

No, that switches windows within an App, not windows globally. Plus, it doesn't even work while I'm on this reply textbox in Chrome. Ok, I'll confess: I want the same behavior as the Windows task switcher

No, that's just like throwing an App to the trash with its prefs. Kexts, libraries, changes to system files, etc. are left behind.

You need to switch to Windows. Apart from the last point, I don't se an issue. I do hope that Apple will not change the way an App is closed, it is one of the great things I love about OS X.

javideslomao · Apr 7, 2011

roadbloc said:
You need to switch to Windows. Apart from the last point, I don't se an issue.

Ok, let me elaborate on how I find annoying to have one shortcut to switch between windows and another one to switch between Apps. Sometimes I need to switch back and forth between one window and another. One can be an OpenOffice spreadsheet, another is Chrome: I need to use CMD-TAB. But if I want to switch between an OpenOffice spreadsheet and an OpenOffice document, I need to use CMD-`.

.

Besides, like I pointed out earlier in the thread, CMD-` doesn't even work in some circumstances:

Open up 2 JPGs and 1 PDF in Preview. CMD-` switches to the PDF and won't switch back to the JPGs. Someone tried and it worked... Well, I keep trying on my SL 10.6.6 and it doesn't.
CMD-` just doesn't work in Chrome while I'm typing on this textbox. It just prints the character `.

roadbloc said:
I do hope that Apple will not change the way an App is closed, it is one of the great things I love about OS X.

Someone else has confirmed that the behavior is changing in Lion. At least Textedit and Preview are dying after you close their last window and switch to another App.

6 irritating things about 10.6. Have they been fixed in LION?

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